anthropologyg3 - Tumblr blog

anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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Cont...

Were you exposed to any LGBTQIA+ individuals when you were younger?

I did not have any openly gay or lesbian people in my life before I left for college. We did have a teacher that we believed to be gay but per school policy, nothing could be discussed and he referred to a girlfriend. But classmates did not believe it and joked about him being gay and having AIDS. Turns out he was gay and actually had AIDS and died the next school year.

Interview with P (Cis-Man, Bi/Try not to label, White, 49)

*These are direct quotes from interviewees*

Has this impacted your life negatively?

No and yes. No because I am otherwise fairly privileged and when I was closeted, I also benefited from “straight passing privilege”. My position in life and appearance to others was generally viewed positively. Yes because I was counseled/advised/internalized my orientation was bad/shameful and something to be hidden and the performative part of me was valued over my authentic part. It gets tiring to keep pretending to be something and suppressing part of yourself

Relationship with identity/sense of self

I’m still not keen on labeling myself. I know now that I can have a romantic relationship with anyone, irrespective of gender. But I need men sexually more than women. I can only have monogamous relationships with men. I openly date men and identify with many issues/identity aspects that gay men have but I do find women attractive enough and in ways that my actual gay peers do not. I have some commonalities with bi/pan men and will use bi/pan/queer labels when asked and only drill down to a level of preciseness when pressed (biromantic homoflexible).

Is there any symbols or slang that surrounded you before that you previously didn't understand?

No not really – I learned about LGBT culture online before encountering it in person.

How does this impact your friend groups?

I avoided anything queer-related when I was in the closet because my sexuality was always doubted by others but I felt that by avoiding that community I could avoid “guilt by association.” By doing “straight” things long enough those questions subsided. At the same time it was isolating. I definitely had to make up for lost time by meeting new people more like me after I came out

What have you witnessed in the divide of ages?

Generalities - Younger groups have it easier. When I was in HS, anything gay-related was off limits subject to bullying, GSAs did not exist and actual laws out there included no-promo-homo (for schools) and broader society gay sex was still technically illegal in some locations (rarely enforced). Also gay = AIDS = Death. Not a good time.

Have you had experience being in the closet? Are you out?

Spent the years from age 17 to 31 there unintentionally as I really did not fully come to terms with myself until I was 31. Then from 31 to 44, I intentionally stayed there because my life was complicated by so many decisions I made before I knew myself and accepted it.

What is your experience coming out post-marriage?

Ex-wife was homophobic and disrespectful. Evidence of this occurred before the divorce. Also unstable so I needed to be legally divorced before coming out. Marriage had other issues so the focus lay elsewhere. Ex told me once she contemplated trying to change custody arrangements after coming out but was told that was a lost cause by her attorney

Life after coming out

Not bad but some bumps. I came out in mid 2019 (quietly and only to those close to me) and made real efforts to find my community as I had lost most of my friend group after the divorce and growing up of my children. I went on dates (mostly men but a few women) and found a friend group. Then the pandemic hit and I lost all but one of them as I wasn’t close enough when people limited contact with others. Then I needed to move twice, once within NYC and then to Atlanta, more or less severing this. In 2022 I started doing a variety of social things in Atlanta and by 2023 I managed to find a group of friends (and a boyfriend) that I connect well with. I feel generally good with where things stand now

How long did you know?

Late bloomer, no real crushes or interest in anyone until 8th grade. Had interest in dating girls because that was expected of me. Did have crushes on a few girls since grade 8 (13yr o). Definitely knew I was interested in boys by 17, had a crush on a boy senior yr but he did not feel the same. May have had a crush on a boy in Gr 8 but uncertain if that was or was not . Thought I was gay until college when I got a girlfriend and discovered I was sexually into girls. Thought desires for boys would go away as a “mistake.” Desires did go away somewhat, received messaging that this was wrong, immoral, etc and try to make heterosexuality work. Spent late teens and 20s realizing I was interested in men like I was interested in women, liked being flirted with by guys, asked out on dates but could not reconcile that with what I was supposed to be doing. Tried alcohol and prayer to resolve. I was 31 before I accepted I was bisexual. Did not tell anyone I knew in person of this for another 14 years.

Divide in the friend group: generations of queerness/ diversity in age

Most millennials and younger came out gay or bi in HS. With guys in my generation and older, the gay ones generally came out after HS, in college or their early 20s but those who were bisexual, generally only dated women openly (guys secretly) and more often than not, came out later either because they were caught or as society advanced into the 2010s, this sort of thing became more acceptable and less stigmatizing.

Familial reaction?

Family reaction in the 90s-00s would have been more likely than not, been negative based on my knowledge of them though my immediate family and closer extended family did change viewpoints on queer community along with the times and by the time I came out in 2019 they were in a position to be positive. Definitely know some extended family remain disapproving of me but they're not in a position to affect me.

Unpacking own preconceived biases?

Listed in the order I dealt with them (age at when resolved)

Same sex desire is wrong/immoral (up to age 22/23)

I must be defective because I am attracted to men like I am attracted to women (31)

Ok nothing is wrong with me but this is a secret I must take to the grave (43)

Women are for relationships, men are for sex only (44)

Bisexuality doesn’t mean 50/50 attraction (46-47)

Community? Being queer and being a father

This one is somewhat uncommon. Most out gay men do not have children. Most gay/bi men I do know that DO have kids were like me and tried to make heterosexuality work first. A few are still married to their wives with some sort of open arrangement but most are now divorced. It is a challenge, especially for the guys with younger kids because most gay men do not have interest in having kids or dealing with a man that does. I do enjoy meeting men like me and comparing notes because it is that uncommon (and with younger generations coming out sooner, becoming even rarer).

Did notice a thread that some of us married narcissistic women (in many cases they pursued us) because we were not in a position to properly understand and come to terms with our sexuality.

How did people react?

Generally most were not surprised. I am not one of those very “straight-acting” types even when I was pretending to be straight. Most people close/important to me remained supportive. I am uncertain how my actual children really feel about me but I certainly do not feel any sort of disrespect. My mom did take more time than my dad or sister to process and I had a female friend that saw me as a potential romantic partner who also struggled a bit re-adjusting her expectations. Aside from my ex (below) nothing negative received or hinted to.

Relationship with ex-post coming out

Atrocious but only partially because of this.(her other personality quirks also played a part) She did react and deal poorly compared to others. She verbally insulted me several times, sometimes quite vulgarly and used homophobic statements. However her poor general mental state and narcissistic personality were side factors and likely would have been negative no matter what.

Impact on your relationship with masculinity/gender?

OK now. I knew early on (maybe 9-10yr I wasn’t like typical boys) in terms of behavior and expectations and this continued to evolve as I hit puberty and became an adult. I did not like typical male behavior and was perceived as effeminate fairly early on. Had an above average number of female friends compared to male. If I was raised in the contemporary era, I may have pushed back against gender norms a bit more in HS. I did try drag once but realized I didn’t look good outside of a masculine look and really do have no gender-related dysmorphia. I did try and suppress more feminine traits and my ex wife policed my overall appearance and would let me know if something I wore or did deviated from her masculine expectations. Once I came out i really stopped giving a fuck on how others perceive me and honestly that was the most freeing because I don’t need to try and fit in the traditional masculine box.

Also related to masculinity and attraction, prior to coming out, I only found men who were more feminine than myself attractive. After coming out I realized more traditionally masculine men were also attractive and dateable. At this point I only struggle to date men with exaggerated masculine traits (excessive muscles, very hairy or a super “bro-y” attitude).

Your interpretation of Bi erasure (for men)

To me there are two types of male bi erasure.

Societal Erasure - This is the society messaging that bi-men are really gay but in denial. Thus men who mostly date men but occasional have (or would) date women get lumped into the gay box.

Self Erasure - This is more insidious and prevents us from fully understanding bi/pan/queer men. This starts with the person themself. Unless the guy is really open and dates towards the 50/50 male/female split, bi men can erase themselves in one of two ways:

Men who are more attracted to women (and/or have serious internalized homophobia) will keep silent about their same sex desires and for all intents and purposes identify as straight (despite having sex with men). Men in this position will also do that to preserve their ability to date women down the line as many surveys have noted that a majority of women will not date men who have slept with other men

Men who are out and mostly date men will sometimes identify (or willingly be identified by others) as gay just to avoid the “oh you will/do still date women” conversation with other men. Honestly sometimes it is just easier to do that for me so I can avoid talking about that messy life and I won’t correct the “he’s gay” presumption. And I have met some “gay” men who admit to watching porn with women and wondering/fantasizing about sleeping with women.

Have you felt unseen/disenfranchised for being queer?

If you havent have you witnessed a friend who has? A place of privilege in that?

Prior to coming out I definitely felt unseen. Pride month was actually kind of a downer for me, especially in NYC. I really wanted to go and be a part of that but was not safe to do that openly or even secretly. As long as I pretended to be straight, my secret was safe. As far as I can tell, I have not had any negative impacts since coming out.

This is the perspective of someone who came out in their adult life in the late 2010’s

How did it made you feel to know people just categorize you as "hiding yourself"?

I did get this from several women, including my ex. With the other women, which included bi women I did get the are you not sure question and/or statements how bi men were “undateable.” The trope about bi men really hiding their true sexuality (gay) was pretty pervasive. The only negative comments I heard gay men say directly to me about bi men were about the bi men who are closeted or on the down low and refuse to see men as anything other than sex objects.

Anything you feel like adding?

Bottom line. On the whole I do not feel negatively impacted because I had other points of privilege to protect me and while I do wonder what could have been if I made other life choices in my actual life, if I was gayer or straighter or if I was born 10 or 20yrs later there really isn’t a way to change what happened.

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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Interview with D (Cis-Female presenting, Any Pronouns, Queer, Dominican, 22)

*These are direct quotes from interviewees*

Has being queer impacted your life negatively?

yeth bc many people have seen me as not queer enough due to my gravitation towards cis men, but oftentimes they are feminine as a projection of wanting to be with women. however i am fearful of those dynamics because of the manipulation tactics and the common ground of understanding how a person can work when you share the same sex

Is there any symbols or slang that surrounded you before that you previously didn't understand?

probably dyke. I didn't grow to understand the meaning of the word until mid high school, when I thought I was fully lesbian. that is not the case but i often feel like the word can be thrown around without people knowing the connotations behind it. but earlier this year i felt myself identify with the term as i was seeing someone that was gender-fluid and had a uterus, and it was the most masculine i have felt

How does this impact your friend groups?

sometimes i’ve felt left out. once again i usually gravitate towards cis (but queer) men, because their thinking is a lot more simplified to me even when i rack my brain over them. the answer has always been to cancel them out of my life but i can’t bring myself to do so because things get more complicated to me when i’m seeing someone with a uterus, moreso cis women. they oftentimes don’t realize that no matter what i am attracted to anyone

Relationship with your identity?

i try not to think too much about it. a lot of the time i wish to be with people that have uteruses as there will always be an understanding of both sides, but i’ve never felt “queer” enough, esp around people that are strictly gay or lesbian

Were you exposed to any LGBTQIA+ individuals when you were younger?

no, not really

Have you had experience being in the closet? Are you out?

i still feel like i am. i don’t talk to my family about it just my friends, i just think it’s insight into my life they are not owed to have

Life after coming out

i wouldn’t say there was much of a point where i properly came out but people that knew just knew and it never made me feel afraid to talk about what my interests are in that area, but i’ve barely come out to my mom and no one else in my family is aware of my identity because they are conservative/traditional due to our catholic upbringing

How [long] you knew?

i knew by the time i was around 8-9. like most queer people they have their first experiences with this stuff when they are young, and with a neighbor or close friend. for me it was my neighbor

Unpacking own preconceived biases?

for a long time i felt like i was not allowed to be seen as queer just because i didn’t have more formal experiences until this past year, but i was always aware of my attraction to everyone despite their sexual orientation and/or anatomy

Experience with the community?

i feel like the community can come off as very exclusive. not to bring up gabe/kiki (but it’s important because they mentioned things to me i have experienced myself, but this is more through the lens of cis men). with gabe, he went to a halloween party of which he felt like he was unable to fit in because he wasn’t queer enough or presenting in a way of which he has been sexually active with other men. and with kiki and his ex partner, their friends would always try to water down his queer identity through polyamory and not having seen so many people at the same time, despite knowing he had been sexually active with other queer/trans people. to me polyamory does not equate to how queer you are (as you can be polyamorous and straight) and in terms of presenting queer i don’t think you have to appear a certain way to prove your attraction to the opposite sex. these are collective experiences of which i’ve experienced myself and it was quite interesting to see the way in which they can fall in the laps of people that “visually” present themselves at straight while being queer.

How did people react?

people have reacted to me with doubt when i tell them i’m queer. most people assume i am just based on my general demeanor but there have been so many times, moreso with people in my life that if they don’t see me actively “being queer” they just assume that i’m not

Have you felt that you’ve experienced Bi-erasure?

bi erasure is the reason why i just simply identify with being queer. i’ve gotten a lot of flak for it, and came to realize identity as queer is more of a spectrum rather than just focusing on identity. i also don’t fully understand the term bi as it seems to exclude trans identities, but in my head being bi means you like both cis men and women, and being pan is liking everyone, so i feel as if the general umbrella term is queer

Have you felt unseen/disenfranchised for being queer?

If you havent have you witnessed a friend who has? A place of privilege in that?

at times yeah, just because perception has always been heavily tied to the way people identify you. i unfortunately have a friends of which said they consider people that are bi as just straight without realizing that it’s not meant to be a consistent thing. To like both sexes doesn’t mean you have to have to show that in terms of who you’re sleeping with or talking to romantically. i feel like it sets up the expectation that to be bi you have to constantly be back and forth in terms of the sexual orientation of the people you see, and it overall just isn’t true to what one may desire at the certain moment.

Anything you feel like adding?

i feel like if people had more open conversations about queerness it would kill the rigid ideas that many seem to have about it. people that try to invalidate queer folk while being in the community themselves are to me not that different from people that are homophobic. because you are trying to label someone and put them in a position of which they have to be decisive over something that can fluctuate. i’ve also seen and felt the ways that organized religion has caused people to push down identity, so at times it feels harder for others and people like me to wrap their heads around it being okay to like whoever you want. this has heavy involvement in people’s journeys to queerness and it is often those who have not had those experiences that find it easy to invalidate others without understanding the religious trauma and guilt that is derived from understanding that they do not fall under cis/het ideologies

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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Interview with P (Cis-Man, Bi/Try not to label, White, 49)

*These are direct quotes from interviewees*

Has this impacted your life negatively?

Relationship with identity/sense of self

Is there any symbols or slang that surrounded you before that you previously didn't understand?

No not really – I learned about LGBT culture online before encountering it in person.

How does this impact your friend groups?

What have you witnessed in the divide of ages?

Have you had experience being in the closet? Are you out?

What is your experience coming out post-marriage?

Life after coming out

How long did you know?

Divide in the friend group: generations of queerness/ diversity in age

Familial reaction?

Unpacking own preconceived biases?

Listed in the order I dealt with them (age at when resolved)

Same sex desire is wrong/immoral (up to age 22/23)

I must be defective because I am attracted to men like I am attracted to women (31)

Ok nothing is wrong with me but this is a secret I must take to the grave (43)

Women are for relationships, men are for sex only (44)

Bisexuality doesn’t mean 50/50 attraction (46-47)

Community? Being queer and being a father

Did notice a thread that some of us married narcissistic women (in many cases they pursued us) because we were not in a position to properly understand and come to terms with our sexuality.

How did people react?

Relationship with ex-post coming out

Impact on your relationship with masculinity/gender?

Your interpretation of Bi erasure (for men)

To me there are two types of male bi erasure.

Societal Erasure - This is the society messaging that bi-men are really gay but in denial. Thus men who mostly date men but occasional have (or would) date women get lumped into the gay box.

Have you felt unseen/disenfranchised for being queer?

If you havent have you witnessed a friend who has? A place of privilege in that?

This is the perspective of someone who came out in their adult life in the late 2010’s

How did it made you feel to know people just categorize you as "hiding yourself"?

Anything you feel like adding?

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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"In coming out, a person acts to create a sense of wholeness by establishing congruence between interior experiences and external presentation, moving the inner into the outer, bringing the hidden to light, and transforming a private into a social reality. The closet symbolizes isolation, the individual without society, a stranger even to self. Its imagery is consistent with the atomistic conceptions of a society in which individuated actors must struggle to communicate and gain legitimacy for private truths" (Kath 1997).

Weston, Kath. (1997). Families We Choose: Lesbians, Gays, Kinship. Columbia University Press.

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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Interview with L (Cis-Woman, Bi, White, 22)

*These are direct quotes from interviewees*

Has being queer impacted your life negatively?

Yes - made me really confused and put a confusing strain on friendships and family relationships.

Is there any symbols or slang that surrounded you before that you previously didn't understand?

Don’t think so

How does this impact your friend groups?

I had friends in middle school and maybe parts of high school that were either disgusted with me or fetishized me. Haven’t really affected my adult friendships

Relationship with your identity?

I struggle with being bi because I haven’t actually dated someone of the same sex and sometimes I feel like I’m not “gay” enough to be bi even though I’ve had physical attraction to other women

Were you exposed to any LGBTQIA+ individuals when you were younger?

Half of my dad's siblings are gay (2 uncles, 1 aunt)

Have you had experience being in the closet? Are you out?

Wasn’t in the closet very long. Realized pretty young and told my family soon after but my mother made me question things as soon as I told her. My dad just kinda sighed I suppose. He didn’t care that much.

What is life after coming out?

Was very sure I was bi because I preferred to watch lesbian porn over straight porn and I had had crushes on women but then as time went on, I started to doubt it because I wasn’t “gay” enough once again but learning about the spectrum of bisexuality has helped me understand more

How (long) you knew?

Had my first crush on a girl when I was 9. I don’t think I realized it was a crush until I was around 13 tho.

Unpacking own preconceived biases?

Bisexuality is a spectrum! It doesn’t mean that I can’t have a preference towards men.

Experience with the community?

A lot of my friends are bi and we all have our own preferences and it helps reinforce how much of a spectrum it is

How did people react?

Some were disgusted but none were super close friends so it didn’t affect me much. Hated how certain men fetishized me (loved the idea of girl on girl) but was disgusted by gay men. For the most part tho, people were supportive

Have you felt that you’ve experienced Bi-erasure?

My mother told me that bisexuality wasn’t real because it’s biologically impossible to love both sexes 50/50

Have you felt unseen/disenfranchised for being queer?

If you havent have you witnessed a friend who has? A place of privilege in that?

I felt unseen by my mother. I felt unseen by queer women who didn’t deem me gay enough. I felt unseen by boyfriends who thought it was just “hot” for me to kiss women and didn’t see my attraction to them as valid as my attraction to men.

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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Interview with N (Cis-Male, Bi, Korean-American, 28)

*These are direct quotes from interviewees*

Has being queer impacted your life negatively?

So far no because I've only been openly bisexual with a handful of people.

Is there any symbols or slang that surrounded you before that you previously didn't understand?

I didn't understand any LGBTQ+ symbolism or slang until I came out and garnered more gay friends

How does this impact your friend groups?

It doesn't at the moment as I've only been openly bisexual to a select few people

Relationship with your identity?

It doesn't right now because I'm in a heterosexual relationship

Were you exposed to any LGBTQIA+ individuals when you were younger?

Yes, not many but I did know a few. My best friend when I was a kid was gay before he knew the word for it.

Have you had experience being in the closet? Are you out?

Partially in the closet due to not wanting to have to deal with having to explain myself at every family function

What is life after coming out?

It felt freeing to have a concrete answer

How [long] did you know?

Few years. Always had questions but never was certain

Have you had to unpack your own preconceived biases?

Yes, because I never thought I was bisexual due to my large affection to the opposite gender.

Experience with the community?

I haven't participated much in the community, but I do have a bisexual partner

How did people react?

Most people expected it

Impact on your relationship with masculinity?

No impact because it's better to be more in tune with myself

Have you felt that you've experienced Bi-erasure?

Have you felt unseen/disenfranchised for being queer?

If you haven't have you witnessed a friend who has? A place of privilege in that?

No, but I have definitely have had friends who had been bullied about being gay.

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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"The political response to the murder of Troy Davis does not challenge the assumption that communities need to clean up their streets by rounding up criminals, for it relies on the claim that Davis is not one of those feared criminals, but an innocent Black man. Innocence, however, is just code for nonthreatening to white civil society. Troy Davis is differentiated from other Black men — the bad ones — and the legal system is diagnosed as being infected with racism, masking the fact that the legal system is the constituent mechanism through which racial violence is carried out (wishful last-minute appeals to the right to a fair trial reveal this — as if trials were ever intended to be fair!).

Wang, J. (2012). "Against Innocence-Race, Gender, and the Politics of Safety" LIES: A Journal of Materialist Feminism, Vol 1.

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anthropologyg3 · 5 months

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"It is difficult to be born in a place where you are despised and also promised that with endeavor – with this, with that, you know – you can accomplish the impossible. You’re trying to deal with the man, the woman, the child – the child of whichever sex – and he or she and your man or your woman has got to deal with the 24-hour-a-day facts of life in this country. We’re not going to fly off someplace else, you know, we’d better get through whatever that day is and still have each other and still raise children – somehow manage all of that. And this is 24 hours of every day, and you’re surrounded by all of the paraphernalia of safety: If you can strike this bargain here. If you can make sure your armpits are odorless. Curl your hair. Be impeccable. Be all the things that the American public says you should do, right? And you do all those things – and nothing happens really. And what is much worse than that, nothing happens to your child either" (Baldwin 1984).

The idea of having to be "good enough" of a citizen, to be "worthy" of survival and basic human rights, is one that plagues oppressed peoples across facets of society. If you do the right thing, you can live a better life, or even simply continue to exist--but time and time again inequalities persist in effecting the "best" of the minority, despite the promises of the society.

Revolutionary Hope: A Conversation Between James Baldwin and Audre Lorde

JB: One of the dangers of being a Black American is being schizophrenic, and I mean ‘schizophrenic’ in the most literal sense. To be a Black American is in some ways to be born with the desire to be white. It’s a part of the price you pay for being born here, and it affects every Black person. We can go back to Vietnam, we can go back to Korea. We can go back for that matter to the First World War. We can go back to W.E.B. Du Bois – an honorable and beautiful man – who campaigned to persuade Black people to fight in the First World War, saying that if we fight in this war to save this country, our right to citizenship can never, never again be questioned – and who can blame him? He really meant it, and if I’d been there at that moment I would have said so too perhaps. Du Bois believed in the American dream. So did Martin. So did Malcolm. So do I. So do you. That’s why we’re sitting here.

AL: I don’t, honey. I’m sorry, I just can’t let that go past. Deep, deep, deep down I know that dream was never mine. And I wept and I cried and I fought and I stormed, but I just knew it. I was Black. I was female. And I was out – out – by any construct wherever the power lay. So if I had to claw myself insane, if I lived I was going to have to do it alone. Nobody was dreaming about me. Nobody was even studying me except as something to wipe out.

JB: You are saying you do not exist in the American dream except as a nightmare.

AL: That’s right. And I knew it every time I opened Jet, too. I knew that every time I opened a Kotex box. I knew that every time I went to school. I knew that every time I opened a prayer book. I knew it, I just knew it.

JB: It is difficult to be born in a place where you are despised and also promised that with endeavor – with this, with that, you know – you can accomplish the impossible. You’re trying to deal with the man, the woman, the child – the child of whichever sex – and he or she and your man or your woman has got to deal with the 24-hour-a-day facts of life in this country. We’re not going to fly off someplace else, you know, we’d better get through whatever that day is and still have each other and still raise children – somehow manage all of that. And this is 24 hours of every day, and you’re surrounded by all of the paraphernalia of safety: If you can strike this bargain here. If you can make sure your armpits are odorless. Curl your hair. Be impeccable. Be all the things that the American public says you should do, right? And you do all those things – and nothing happens really. And what is much worse than that, nothing happens to your child either.

AL: Even worse than the nightmare is the blank. And Black women are the blank. I don’t want to break all this down, then have to stop at the wall of male/female division. When we admit and deal with difference; when we deal with the deep bitterness; when we deal with the horror of even our different nightmares; when we turn them and look at them, it’s like looking at death: hard but possible. If you look at it directly without embracing it, then there is much less that you can ever be made to fear.

JB: I agree.

AL: Well, in the same way when we look at our differences and not allow ourselves to be divided, when we own them and are not divided by them, that is when we will be able to move on. But we haven’t reached square one yet.

JB: I’m not sure of that. I think the Black sense of male and female is much more sophisticated than the western idea. I think that Black men and women are much less easily thrown by the question of gender or sexual preference – all that jazz. At least that is true of my experience.

AL: Yea, but let’s remove ourselves from merely a reactive position – i.e., Black men and women reacting to what’s out there. While we are reacting to what’s out there, we’re also dealing between ourselves – and between ourselves there are power differences that come down…

JB: Oh, yes…

AL: Truly dealing with how we live, recognizing each other’s differences, is something that hasn’t happened…

JB: Differences and samenesses.

AL: Differences and samenesses. But in a crunch, when all our asses are in the sling, it looks like it is easier to deal with the samenesses. When we deal with sameness only, we develop weapons that we use against each other when the differences become apparent. And we wipe each other out – Black men and women can wipe each other out – far more effectively than outsiders do.

JB: That’s true enough.

AL: And our blood is high, our furies are up. I mean, it’s what Black women do to each other, Black men do to each other, and Black people do to each other. We are in the business of wiping each other out in one way or the other – and essentially doing our enemy’s work.

JB: That’s quite true.

AL: We need to acknowledge those power differences between us and see where they lead us. An enormous amount of energy is being taken up with either denying the power differences between Black men and women or fighting over power differences between Black men and women or killing each other off behind them. I’m talking about Black women’s blood flowing in the streets – and how do we get a 14-year-old boy to know I am not the legitimate target of his fury? The boot is on both of our necks. Let’s talk about getting it off. My blood will not wash out your horror. That’s what I’m interested in getting across to adolescent Black boys.

There are little Black girl children having babies. But this is not an immaculate conception, so we’ve got little Black boys who are making babies, too. We have little Black children making little Black children. I want to deal with that so our kids will not have to repeat that waste of themselves.

JB: I hear you – but let me backtrack, for better or worse. You know, for whatever reason and whether it’s wrong or right, for generations men have come into the world, either instinctively knowing or believing or being taught that since they were men they in one way or another had to be responsible for the women and children, which means the universe.

AL: Mm-hm.

JB: I don’t think there’s any way around that.

AL: Any way around that now?

JB: I don’t think there’s any way around that fact.

AL: If we can put people on the moon and we can blow this whole planet up, if we can consider digging 18 inches of radioactive dirt off of the Bikini atolls and somehow finding something to do with it – if we can do that, we as Black cultural workers can somehow begin to turn that stuff around – because there’s nobody anymore buying ‘cave politics’ – ‘Kill the mammoth or else the species is extinct.’ We have moved beyond that. Those little scrubby-ass kids in the sixth grade – I want those Black kids to know that brute force is not a legitimate way of dealing across sex difference. I want to set up some different paradigms.

JB: Yea, but there’s a real difference between the way a man looks at the world…

AL: Yes, yes…

JB: And the way a woman looks at the world. A woman does know much more than a man.

AL: And why? For the same reason Black people know what white people are thinking: because we had to do it for our survival…

JB: All right, all right…

AL: We’re finished being bridges. Don’t you see? It’s not Black women who are shedding Black men’s blood on the street – yet. We’re not cleaving your head open with axes. We’re not shooting you down. We’re saying, “Listen, what’s going on between us is related to what’s going on between us and other people,” but we have to solve our own shit at the same time as we’re protecting our Black asses, because if we don’t, we are wasting energy that we need for joint survival.

JB: I’m not even disagreeing – but if you put the argument in that way, you see, a man has a certain story to tell, too, just because he is a man…

AL: Yes, yes, and it’s vital that I be alive and able to listen to it.

JB: Yes. Because we are the only hope we have. A family quarrel is one thing; a public quarrel is another. And you and I, you know – in the kitchen, with the kids, with each other or in bed – we have a lot to deal with, with each other, but we’ve got to know what we’re dealing with. And there is no way around it. There is no way around it. I’m a man. I am not a woman.

AL: That’s right, that’s right.

JB: No one will turn me into a woman. You’re a woman and you’re not a man. No one will turn you into a man. And we are indispensable for each other, and the children depend on us both.

AL: It’s vital for me to be able to listen to you, to hear what is it that defines you and for you to listen to me, to hear what is it that defines me – because so long as we are operating in that old pattern, it doesn’t serve anybody, and it certainly hasn’t served us.

JB: I know that. What I really think is that neither of us has anything to prove, at least not in the same way, if we weren’t in the North American wilderness. And the inevitable dissension between brother and sister, between man and woman – let’s face it, all those relations which are rooted in love also are involved in this quarrel. Because our real responsibility is to endlessly redefine each other. I cannot live without you, and you cannot live without me – and the children can’t live without us.

AL: But we have to define ourselves for each other. We have to redefine ourselves for each other because no matter what the underpinnings of the distortion are, the fact remains that we have absorbed it. We have all absorbed this sickness and ideas in the same way we absorbed racism. It’s vital that we deal constantly with racism, and with white racism among Black people – that we recognize this as a legitimate area of inquiry. We must also examine the ways that we have absorbed sexism and heterosexism. These are the norms in this dragon we have been born into – and we need to examine these distortions with the same kind of openness and dedication that we examine racism…

JB: You use the word ‘racism’…

AL: The hatred of Black, or color…

JB: - but beneath the word ‘racism’ sleeps the word ‘safety.’ Why is it important to be white or Black?

AL: Why is it important to be a man rather than a woman?

JB: In both cases, it is assumed that it is safer to be white than to be Black. And it’s assumed that it is safer to be a man than to be a woman. These are both masculine assumptions. But those are the assumptions that we’re trying to overcome or to confront…

AL: To confront, yeah. The vulnerability that lies behind those masculine assumptions is different for me and you, and we must begin to look at that…

JB: Yes, yes…

AL: And the fury that is engendered in the denial of that vulnerability – we have to break through it because there are children growing up believe that it is legitimate to shed female blood, right? I have to break through it because those boys really think that the sign of their masculinity is impregnating a sixth grader. I have to break through it because of that little sixth-grade girl who believes that the only thing in life she has is what lies between her legs…

JB: Yeah, but we’re not talking now about men and women. We’re talking about a particular society. We’re talking about a particular time and place. You were talking about the shedding of Black blood in the streets, but I don’t understand –

AL: Okay, the cops are killing the men and the men are killing the women. I’m talking about rape. I’m talking about murder.

JB: I’m not disagreeing with you, but I do think you’re barking up the wrong tree. I’m not trying to get the Black man off the hook – or Black women, for that matter – but I am talking about the kingdom in which we live.

AL: Yes, I absolutely agree; the kingdom in which these distortions occur has to be changed.

JB: Something happens to the man who beats up a lady. Something happens to the man who beats up his grandmother. Something happens to the junkie. I know that very well. I walked the streets of Harlem; I grew up there, right? Now you know it is not the Black cat’s fault who sees me and tries to mug me. I got to know that. It’s his responsibility but it’s not his fault. That’s a nuance. UI got to know that it’s not him who is my enemy even when he beats up his grandmother. His grandmother has got to know. I’m trying to say one’s got to see what drove both of us into those streets. We be both from the same track. Do you see what I mean? I’ve come home myself, you know, wanting to beat up anything in sight- but Audre, Audre…

AL: I’m here, I’m here…

JB: I agree with you. I see exactly what you mean and it hurts me at least as much as it hurts you. But how to maneuver oneself past this point – how not to lose him or her who may be in what is in effect occupied territory. That is really what the Black situation is in this country. For the ghetto, all that is lacking is barbed wire, and when you pen people up like animals, the intention is to debase them and you have debased them.

AL: Jimmy, we don’t have an argument

JB: I know we don’t.

AL: But what we do have is a real disagreement about your responsibility not just to me but to my son and to our boys. Your responsibility to him is to get across to him in a way that I never will be able to because he did not come out of my body and has another relationship to me. Your relationship to him as his farther is to tell him I’m not a fit target for his fury.

JB: Okay, okay…

AL: It’s so entrenched in him that it’s part of him as much as his Blackness is.

JB: All right, all right…

AL: I can’t do it. You have to.

JB: All right, I accept – the challenge is there in any case. It never occurred to me that it would be otherwise. That’s absolutely true. I simply want to locate where the danger is…

AL: Yeah, we’re at war…

JB: We are behind the gates of a kingdom which is determined to destroy us.

AL: Yes, exactly so. And I’m interested in seeing that we do not accept terms that will help us destroy each other. And I think one of the ways in which we destroy each other is by being programmed to knee-jerk on our differences. Knee-jerk on sex. Knee-jerk on sexuality…

JB: I don’t quite know what to do about it, but I agree with you. And I understand exactly what you mean. You’re quite right. We get confused with genders – you know, what the western notion of woman is, which is not necessarily what a woman is at all. It’s certainly not the African notion of what a woman is. Or even the European notion of what a woman is. And there’s certainly not standard of masculinity in this country which anybody can respect. Part of the horror of being a Black American is being trapped into being an imitation of an imitation.

AL: I can’t tell you what I wished you would be doing. I can’t redefine masculinity. I can’t redefine Black masculinity certainly. I am in the business of redefining Black womanness. You are in the business of redefining Black masculinity. And I’m saying, ‘Hey, please go on doing it,’ because I don’t know how much longer I can hold this fort, and I really feel that Black women are holding it and we’re beginning to hold it in ways that are making this dialogue less possible.

JB: Really? Why do you say that? I don’t feel that at all. It seems to me you’re blaming the Black man for the trap he’s in.

AL: I’m not blaming the Black man; I’m saying don’t shed my blood. I’m not blaming the Black man. I’m saying if my blood is being shed, at some point I’m gonna have a legitimate reason to take up a knife and cut your damn head off, and I’m not trying to do it.

JB: If you drive a man mad, you’ll turn him into a beast – it has nothing to do with his color.

AL: If you drive a woman insane, she will react like a beast too. There is a larger structure, a society with which we are in total and absolute war. We live in the mouth of a dragon, and we must be able to use each other’s forces to fight it together, because we need each other. I am saying that in our joint battle we have also developed some very real weapons, and when we turn them against each other they are even more bloody, because we know each other in a particular way. When we turn those weapons against each other, the bloodshed is terrible. Even worse, we are doing this in a structure where we are already embattled. I am not denying that. It is a family discussion I’m having now. I’m not laying blame. I do not blame Black men for what they are. I’m asking them to move beyond. I do not blame Black men; what I’m saying is, we have to take a new look at the ways in which we fight our joint oppression because if we don’t, we’re gonna be blowing each other up. We have to begin to redefine the terms of what woman is, what man is, how we relate to each other.

JB: But that demands redefining the terms of the western world…

AL: And both of us have to do it; both of us have to do it…

JB: But you don’t realize that in this republic the only real crime is to be a Black man?

AL: No, I don’t realize that. I realize the only crime is to be Black. I realize the only crime is to be Black, and that includes me too.

JB: A Black man has a prick, they hack it off. A Black man is a ****** when he tries to be a model for his children and he tries to protect his women. That is a principal crime in this republic. And every Black man knows it. And every Black woman pays for it. And every Black child. How can you be so sentimental as to blame the Black man for a situation which has nothing to do with him?

AL: You still haven’t come past blame. I’m not interested in blame, I’m interested in changing…

JB: May I tell you something? May I tell you something? I might be wrong or right.

AL: I don’t know – tell me.

JB: Do you know what happens to a man-?

AL: How can I know what happens to a man?

JB: Do you know what happens to a man when he’s ashamed of himself when he can’t find a job? When his socks stink? When he can’t protect anybody? When he can’t do anything? Do you know what happens to a man when he can’t face his children because he’s ashamed of himself? It’s not like being a woman…

AL: No, that’s right. Do you know what happens to a woman who gives birth, who puts that child out there and has to go out and hook to feed it? Do you know what happens to a woman who goes crazy and beats her kids across the room because she’s so full of frustration and anger? Do you know what that is? Do you know what happens to a lesbian who sees her woman and her child beaten on the street while six other guys are holding her? Do you know what that feels like?

JB: Mm-hm.

AL: Well then, in the same way you know how a woman feels, I know how a man feels, because it comes down to human beings being frustrated and distorted because we can’t protect the people we love. So now let’s start –

JB: All right, okay…

AL: - let’s start with that and deal.

Essence Magazine, 1984

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