#and denny o'neil had gone so far as to establish both of them as bruce's definitive love interests in the 70s

[roobylavender]

if i really scratch my head i think maybe the one thing all of this could stem from is mere discussion of the fact that talia and selina's histories with bruce sort of operate in the reverse and inevitably that factors into any contention with either relationship. like it can't really be helped that bruce and talia were married very early on into the latter's history and that this is integral to analyzing talia's entire dynamic with bruce, her evolving perception of her own place in the world, and her eventual decision to break free of bruce entirely. the constraints of a marriage with bruce as desired by her father are foundational lore to the early aughts of her character in a way that selina's settled domestic life with bruce is not. if we're talking about the golden age what was foundational to selina's dynamic with bruce was his ability to recognize above everyone else her consistent capacity for mercy despite her villainous goals on the surface. in post-crisis that was translated along the lines of a class struggle specifically. the villainous goals were interpreted to represent a defiance of men and the state and their collective violence, and they also formed a means of survival. what was initially merely a recognition of selina's capacity for mercy now became a potential recognition of bruce's own hypocrisies. selina acted as a symbol for petty criminals in gotham whom bruce would otherwise have written off as immoral wholesale bc to him the law was the law. and the remarkable thing about it was that none of it required selina giving even an inch to bruce. she was who she was and that was what made her utterly compelling to him. it's not a slight against selina that neither marriage nor a close civilian relationship formed the basis of her relationship with bruce and i don't understand why anyone would take it as one. marriage and domestic life for talia was a mark of the utter tragedy of her relationship with bruce. it was a fantasy and a delusion and it could never have given her what she wanted nor lent her any kind of agency in the long term. and i think when we meander into the realm of comparing the relationships we really start to diminish why certain aspects are important to either. why are the various patriarchal restrictions on talia's agency so integral to her character arc and its exploration of freedom? why is selina's existence in a sphere of life entirely distinct of bruce so integral to her character arc and its exploration of class? the constant back and forth between shippers on either end trying to equalize in terms of what either relationship has gone through in canon like it's a checklist to romantic validity is a bit absurd and i wish we would move away from it when analyzing the relationships or the characters

#it reminds me a bit of when i said that i think selina becoming a millionaire was a stupid development #that was insulting to everything newell and grant and moench had tried to build up about her in the early 90s #and people got upset and called me a hypocrite bc talia is rich. like my guy. can i help it that talia is rich #i can't erase her foundational character traits to make some sort of even playing field.. #and frankly the fact that she and bruce are rich /is/ precisely what drives the whole argument about duty between them #they are in no position to complain or grow tired or languish in their reams of wealth #there is a duty they owe to the world while they have power and they have to suck it up and uphold that duty #it is the absolute least they can do and they know that. hence why talia is repeatedly on bruce's ass about it #it is also not lost on me that the above complaint may largely stem from the lazarus affair #where talia was portrayed to be ridiculously haughty and more than willing to show off her wealth #even though she didn't do that in like. any other comic in her pre-assassination era #and the lazarus affair as i have said so many times was a ridiculous comic anyways bc it setup talia and selina to be #combative ship fodder to fuel disagreements between dick and bruce. it is literally the first comic where they were ever #pit against each other. despite the fact that they had co-existed in harmony for a decade prior #and denny o'neil had gone so far as to establish both of them as bruce's definitive love interests in the 70s #like idk man it's not hard to entertain a little more critical thinking and poke at why the comparisons between them are nonsensical #a lot of it. a Lot of it. is stemming from people wanting either ship to one up the other. and you shouldn't fall for it #to be deleted #anyway. not making this rebloggable bc i'm sure you're all annoyed already but this whole thing has really confused me. so i've rambled