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theofficepolitics · 7 years

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Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do? Part I

Ask HN: I am about to be fired. What should I do?

I am currently a data scientist for a major firm, and I am facing a manager who wishes to fire me.

He assigned me to follow the instructions of an "expert" in completing a compliance document (a task in which I am not trained), and the "expert" turned out to be producing documents that are not in compliance with Federal law. The "expert" repeatedly stated in writing that I was doing an "excellent" job, and I am concerned I am facing retaliation for reporting that her work was simply not correct.

When I raised that issue, he immediately began the process of putting me on a 30 day review, a necessary step prior to termination. Such programs are ostensibly to give an employee an opportunity to improve performance.

When I asked whether this was a true opportunity to improve performance, or simply a formality, he hesitated for a great deal of time before making statements that strongly implied, without directly stating, that it was a mere formality.

I have no desire to lose my job, but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy.

According to my colleagues, I'm very competent at my position, but this supervisor has been angry with me since I pointed out to him a few months ago that he may have violated firm policy in a severe way.

What should I do? I would like to remain with the firm and be transferred to another project, but the steps he will take will prevent that.

I do not wish to move, and if fired I will be effectively blackballed from most firms in this city. I have a life, friends, a girlfriend I love very much, and don't wish to leave that behind.

HNers, whether or not you know it, you've been a big part of my life since this site's founding. I value your input and advice tremendously.

What do I do? Do I simply begin looking for other positions? Do I report his increasingly erratic behavior, and waste of firm resources? Do I quit before the period expires?

What are your thoughts?

fsk

793 days ago

[+24]

eranation

793 days ago

[-]

My tips.

1. never criticize your boss, your company or their practices, this is number one way to get fired. yes even if they are completely wrong. your sole job in your job is to make your boss look good. I know it sounds unpopular but this is the way people get promoted vs fired, kind of obvious, but many people still think that if "They do the right thing" that they are clear. This is not something HR will tell you and is against all of our beliefs, but it's the case. If what your boss did is illegal, leave an anonymous tip to the police with evidence making it hard to link it to you but keep private proof that you sent the tip so your are not abiding a crime if it later goes to court.

2. your job quality is derived by 2 factors - a) whether you do something you love, b) the quality of of your direct manager. In your case your boss is an asshole, and you should leave the company regardless.

3. I'm really worried to hear things like "if I get fired, I'll never work in this town again". Where do you live? How powerful is your boss? As a hiring manager, I never got an email list with a subject "people who should never work in this town again".

4. Reporting your boss to HR is a huge risk, it has very low changes of succeeding, but if HR really likes you and really dislike your boss, and you are really a valuable asset to the company more than your boss, than there is a small chance that you'll "win" and get him fired. 9/10, it's going to be you who will be shown the door, but YMMV.

I say - go look for another job, find a manager that will not be a jerk, in a company that promotes openness and good culture. I can't imagine that a data scientist, one of the most sought after and trending jobs in the US will have hard time finding a better job. Am I being delusional?

davemel37

793 days ago

[-]

This. I am no psychologist, but from your post it sounds like you are wound somewhat tight and worry about everything. Not to worry, here are some things to consider.

Losing your job might be the best thing to ever happen to you. What do I mean? Well, for someone who worries a ton, going through a struggle and coming out the other side unscathed will help you worry less and take more risks in the future...which will open you up to new opportunities.

There is a reason many successful people have gone through bankruptcies...It's because they learned the hard way that losing everything financially is not a death sentence...and they come back without fear... Fear is a killer to success. Now's your chance to conquer fear!

Here is a partial list of famous successful people who went through a bankruptcy before succeeding...(From Dan Kennedy's Book, "Wealth Attraction For Entrepreneuers"

P.T. Barnum, David Buick, Walt Disney, James Folger, Henry Ford, Conrad Hilton, J.C. Penny, Sam Walton, William Fox, H.J. Heinz, and Frank Lloyd Wright....

As Pink Says, " Where there is a flame, Someone's bound to get burned. But just because it burns, Doesn't mean you're gonna die. You've gotta get up and try"

s_q_b

793 days ago

[-]

Don't worry. Psychologically, this is tough, but by no means the toughest thing I've ever experienced. My head is bloodied, but unbowed. :)

Also, I'd like to urge anyone in my position to seek out help if you feel you need it. A job is merely employment. Important, certainly, but not worth your health and well-being.

hnnewguy

793 days ago

[-]

"I know it sounds unpopular but this is the way people get promoted vs fired, kind of obvious, but many people still think that if "They do the right thing" that they are clear"

We need more people to prioritize "doing the right thing" over "getting promoted", not fewer.

eranation

793 days ago

[-]

let me put it this way, I was doing the "doing the right thing" approach and it hurt me personally, yet I still try to do the right thing, but not via direct criticism, there is an art of how to convey improvement suggestions and feedback to your boss, in tl;dr it is say something good, say constructive criticism, end with something good, and do it all in private.

I never encountered a criminal violation though, so I don't know what I would do, if I would I think I might just tipped HR anonymously and if my boss would like to take me down with him / her, I'll just deny frivolously. Luckily I have a great boss and a great company, but I'm telling you, even the worst bosses and companies still want to be good ones, and if you choose how to give feedback in a way that will not sound too critic, you will win.

wpietri

793 days ago

[-]

Yeah, I second that.

I used to think it was important to "tell the truth" by which I meant saying the things I thought were important to say. In the end, I recognized that was more about me and my feelings than anything.

Now my goal in bringing up some unpleasant but important thing is to make a difference. If I'm going to make a difference, saying the truth isn't the important thing. It's getting somebody to listen to the truth. That is definitely an art.

seivan

793 days ago

[-]

Doing the right day made me code 10 hour days for two months just to keep up.

The trick is to figure out if its worth it or not, that usually boils down to the the employer.

It wasn't worth it.

def_illiterate

793 days ago

[-]

Some of us think the system can't be fixed--we just want ours. And that's okay.

carc

793 days ago

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Which is what perpetuates these types of things to continue to happen.

mavdi

793 days ago

[-]

Shame some of us are more concerned with providing a living for our families than winning an ideological war right?

jqm

793 days ago

[-]

R.E. #1. Don't do this.

The company pays you, not your boss. Therefore, you should have the companies best interest in mind, not the personal best interest of your boss. Ideally these two things are aligned. If they are not there is a problem. You can try to fix it (which entails a degree of personal risk, yes), or you can leave. But don't just stay quite. That is disloyalty to the entity which is paying you.

If the company is doing something illegal or strikingly unethical and it is not an oversight and you don't believe change is possible, leave. Otherwise you are complicit and this speaks badly of your character which is worth more than a job.

This is not to say every little issue is worth a battle... nobody and no organization is perfect. Don't be a complainer or a nitpicker. However, if there are major problems don't just go with it. That's how organizations go downhill. People afraid to stand up and take personal risks for the good of the institution. Either try to get it worked out or else walk out. Either way, don't be an enabler.

R.E last paragraph: Exactly!

6d0debc071

793 days ago

[-]

> That is disloyalty to the entity which is paying you.

My employer is my client, no more, no less. I am employed to produce a set of work for them, and to employ my skills to particular ends as defined in the contract, and that's it. Their relationship with their other contractors is their business.

This idea that because someone pays you to do work you should serve their interests in all things - even to the extent of compromising your own - strikes me as quite perverse. They certainly bear no similar loyalty to you.

jqm

793 days ago

[-]

Loyalty is a deprecated value I suppose. So let me put it like this... we are riding together in a boat. The boat has a hole in it. Not my problem?

6d0debc071

793 days ago

[-]

It's your problem, but the situation is not analogous.

If the boat has a hole in, we're both going to drown fairly soon if we don't work together.

If you act in the interests of the company, you take on significant personal risk that you'll be thrown over the side of a boat that may or may not make it to a figurative port - i.e. the company lasts long enough for you to get what you wanted out of the contract - for reporting that someone looked fishy around the engine room.

Don't get me wrong however: Loyalty is valuable. I just choose to assign it to people I respect and who care about me, rather than those who waves a cheque book at me and expect to own my soul when they rent my labour.

jqm

793 days ago

[-]

I hear you on owning the soul and dis-respectable people. I don't think we should let ourselves be abused. In the case of the original poster, if what he says is accurate (we don't know, we aren't there), he is being abused by a rouge boss who is also creating risk for the company. My opinion is that he should fight this and make others aware of what is going on and try to have it change. Or else leave on his own volition if it is systemic of the larger organization and there is little chance of winning. But don't be abused and don't let the organization that is paying him be abused.

cmdkeen

793 days ago

[-]

Rather than reporting your boss to HR what are the opinions of others re reporting him to legal / compliance?

You're dealing with Federal compliance issues, odds are there is a nominated person at your company who is responsible for it (there certainly is re money laundering for instance). That means there is probably a company policy saying who you should inform, rather than just telling the person you think is not complying you're often supposed to escalate it.

The danger is to do with what happens if the Feds do come calling, your being fired and not having raised your concerns elsewhere does run the risk of career blowback.

IANAL, or particularly aware of Federal compliance rules.

kelukelugames

793 days ago

[-]

1. Do not talk to anyone else in the company about this issue. Do not trust HR or legal.

2. Document everything. Write down the conversation you had with your boss word for word. Go do that right now.

3. Save proof of the violations. Save proof of you reporting it. Save your "excellent" job reports. It will be harder for them to justify firing an excellent employee.

Realize that data loss prevention software will tell the company you saved the examples.

4. Consult with an employment lawyer. In fact, go see two or three.

5. This is the most important step. Find a new job. Pretend everything is okay so you don't come off as desperate.

greenyoda

793 days ago

[-]

"4. Consult with an employment lawyer."

Talking to an employment lawyer is a very good idea, since you may be getting fired in retaliation for reporting illegal activity: "the 'expert' turned out to be producing documents that are not in compliance with Federal law." You might have a case for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit, which could give you leverage to get a hefty severance payment to make the case (and adverse publicity) go away by settling out of court. So definitely consult a good lawyer who practices employment law in your state.

"2. Document everything... 3. Save proof of the violations."

Needless to say, don't save these on your company computer, since the moment they decide to fire you you'll lose access to it.

"1. Do not talk to anyone else in the company about this issue. Do not trust HR or legal."

For more information on the role of HR and why they shouldn't be trusted, read the book Corporate Confidential by Cynthia Shapiro (which I learned about from a comment on HN a while back; thanks to whoever posted that!).

Link to book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0312337361

kelukelugames

793 days ago

[-]

I'm so happy to see someone else recommend this book. :)

EliRivers

793 days ago

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Do not trust HR or legal.

Oh God yes. Everything they do, everything, is about protecting the company. They will lie to you, they will screw you over, and anything you say to them will be used against you in some way.

AH4oFVbPT4f8

793 days ago

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Just to make it clear, HR and legal work to protect THE COMPANY not you.

semi-extrinsic

793 days ago

[-]

I'm a little surprised that everyone is saying "avoid HR" (I have no experience with being on the wrong side of management or HR, yet). Can anyone comment on whether this is US specific or if it applies equally in western Europe?

kelukelugames

793 days ago

[-]

Let's say you are a female employee and a college hire calls you a sexist term during a meeting. Then yes, by all means go to HR.

However, if your manager did something inappropriate in private then whose side do you think HR will take?

EliRivers

793 days ago

[-]

Then yes, by all means go to HR.

You will be labelled as a troublemaker. That college hire will be in trouble as well (not for what he did, but because he has made the company vulnerable to action), but your record will be marked (almost certainly not literally; they're not stupid enough to outright leave actionable evidence like that).

vacri

793 days ago

[-]

I don't know about western Europe, but here in Australia, I've heard the story "I went to HR and things improved" exactly once. Usually it's a neutral 'we can't do anything' and sometimes it's makes things so much worse.

I've heard far more success going outside HR channels - like say talking to a boss's boss or a boss's colleague.

jcadam

793 days ago

[-]

I tried taking a grievance to HR once.

Once

. Lesson learned (the hard way, as usual for me). Now I just look for a new job if my manager is a tool.

michaelochurch

793 days ago

[-]

Corporations value consistency over correctness. Your manager is your manager because the company trusts him. Even if the evidence suggests strongly that your boss is in the wrong, the best you're likely to get is a pyrrhic victory: the boss goes down, but so do you.

It takes a whole-team revolt to beat a bad boss through HR channels, and most people aren't willing to put their careers at risk. Not only that, but after you beat a bad boss, you're still viewed with suspicion by managers ("protect our own") and will have a hard time getting a transfer or promotion.

kmonsen

793 days ago

[-]

They also know the laws and the politics of the company much better than you so you are playing on their turf.

bdcravens

793 days ago

[-]

> I have no desire to lose my job, but I am most concerned that being fired would place future job prospects in jeopardy.

First of all, you're not going to work here forever. You'll let laid off, or get pushed out in an acquisition, or find a better gig down the road, or get fired for cause. No one stays at a job forever.

Secondly, don't place so much faith in your "permanent record". Yeah, getting fired can impact you, but not as significantly as you think. I've had some jobs I seriously screwed up on, but I'm far from the soup kitchen today. Even if someone notices, there are laws regarding disclosure, and you will get interviews. In today's world of high profile ethical failures, your response to why you were terminated will make you stand out.

People around the world are dying for their beliefs. Don't stand for having imaginary potential consequences dangled in front of you like a carrot prevent you from doing the proper thing.

evbots

793 days ago

[-]

Whatever you decide to do, you really should report the violation of the law in some way to one of your superiors, and do it in a documented, traceable fashion (email).

skylan_q

793 days ago

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Pretty much this. And if they don't follow through/follow up on this, the problem will get much bigger.

nezumi

793 days ago

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If I were in this position I would find the appropriate internal legal counsel and cc them on the email, including the words 'client attorney privileged and confidential' at the top. This affords some protection against discovery were the information to become relevant in legal proceedings. Taking that additional caution on behalf of the company shows professionalism on your part and will be appreciated by management who will see you're trying to contain and redress the situation rather than put the company at risk, in which case you may be seen instead as the risk.

Another thought- it's possible that your supervisor's manager is aware of the action being taken against you. You might be able to get better advice talking to someone in a different reporting chain if you can find them.

joshyeager

793 days ago

[-]

An employee is not the client of a company's legal counsel. The company is the client. So there is no expectation of confidentiality. Copying their legal team might make them more likely to act on the problem. But it won't protect the employee.

Silhouette

793 days ago

[-]

I got the impression that nezumi knew that, and was suggesting the marking as a way of protecting the current employer, to demonstrate to any more senior management who might become involved that the OP is

not

just trying to make trouble.

Whether that would actually help here and whether such markings have any weight in whatever legal system the OP is operating within are different questions, of course.

lukeschlather

793 days ago

[-]

You misunderstood. CC'ing the counsel is a gesture of good faith towards the company, insuring that the company is protected and emphasizing that you aren't looking to start legal action.

s_q_b

793 days ago

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Thanks guys :) There are verbatim notes that I've filed with my legal counsel, but I am concerned escalating will result in immediate termination.

skylan_q

793 days ago

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The company is willing to hire such a manager. So you've got to ask yourself, would you want anything other than termination from this environment?

Either way things can't go back to the way they were. You're either getting fired, or you're going to choose to leave. This means changes are coming. So you've got to take charge of how your life is going to change.

ChuckMcM

793 days ago

[-]

This. It doesn't sound like there is a 'not leaving' choice so making it on your own terms is better than having it on their terms. And document what ever you can so that in the (unlikely) event they come after you, you have a defense.

rfrey

793 days ago

[-]

You have legal counsel and you're still posting to HN for advice? Have you lost faith in them? Do they know you're posting details of your case on the internet? Are they ok with that?

s_q_b

793 days ago

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I have not lost faith, and nothing I've said is legally problematic. Truly, I value the advice given here, and having weighed the risks carefully, I made a considered decision. It could be totally wrong, but for now, what's done is done. Thank you for reading this, and your advice is very well taken.

wpietri

793 days ago

[-]

Legal counsel is for legal advice. They will also give you other advice if you ask for it, but that's not what they're trained in. I have a lawyer who is awesome, and who I've used for coming up on 15 years. But he only knows what he knows. I certainly get his opinion on business matters, because he has seen a lot of stuff happen. But I get opinions from other people, too. And in the end I go with my opinion, because it's my life, not his.

socialist_coder

793 days ago

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> He assigned me to follow the instructions of an "expert" in completing a compliance document (a task in which I am not trained), and the "expert" turned out to be producing documents that are not in compliance with Federal law. The "expert" repeatedly stated in writing that I was doing an "excellent" job, and I am concerned I am facing retaliation for reporting that her work was simply not correct.

If that is true, why not escalate this up the chain? Unless there is some big conspiracy / cover up going on, I'm sure upper management would be interested in the truth.

xtrumanx

793 days ago

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> I'm sure upper management would be interested in the truth.

I'm not the OP and I'm sure upper management everywhere are interested in the truth but I'm interested in maintaining the relationship with my direct superiors more.

If my direct superiors aren't handling an issue I will never go over their head as it'll probably sour our relationship and nothing will probably get done anyways.

jodah

793 days ago

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Agree with others - any relationship with your immediate superiors is already toast. Anyone who would retaliate against you for doing good work can never be trusted to treat you fairly again.

Considering that you want to stay at the company there are really only two ways this could turn out good for you: You bring this up the chain, effectively reporting your supervisor's bad behavior, and wind up reassigned under someone else, or you bring this up the chain and your supervisor gets fired. The latter is the only scenario that really gives you a good shot of remaining at the company without being hassled, and it sounds like your supervisor's behavior was bad enough to warrant their dismissal.

Some people do horrible things and their companies protect them. Maybe they're politically connected, well-liked, or valuable for other reasons. The way I look at this overall is that the company is either good enough to stop this sort of retaliatory behavior or they're not, in which case you shouldn't want to work for them anyways.

Good luck.

impendia

793 days ago

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As far as I can tell, the relationship between OP and his/her direct supervisor is completely shot. There is nothing to maintain.

sliverstorm

793 days ago

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it'll probably sour our relationship

If "the issue" is your superior is on a warpath to get you fired, I think that ship has sailed.

bboreham

793 days ago

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Interesting to contrast this with the recent bank fraud thread, where people say "senior management must have known what was going on".

supertruth

793 days ago

[-]

Okay it seems like you want to keep this job so that's step one. The goal here is to keep the job. Now just arrange the chess pieces to accomplish your goal. Here are two things I would keep in mind:

1. Do exceptionally good work for the next 30 days. Bust Your Ass. Most likely this is his way of reasserting his superior status over you since you went out of line. You need to show him that he's the master and you're the subordinate. The best way to do that is to bust your ass and do the work the way he's dictated that he wants the work done. Don't do this passive-aggressively or in a desperate way, do this with determination, with purpose, authentically. Like you were born and live to serve him. Once you've pleased his ego, he'll have a harder time rationalizing firing you.

2. DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL. Only say good things about your boss and how's he's so intelligent and you really respect his leadership and blah blah. Swallow your pride and openly acknowledge his criticisms of you and say this whole process is helping you grow as a person and be better. Repeat: DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL NO EXCEPTIONS IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU THINK THEY ARE YOUR FRIEND. If you have negative things to say about him/the company, they will begin their campaign to disarm you and support the decision to let you go.

On a meta-note. I think you should actually leave the company and find a company/manager with a supportive culture. By staying at this company you are stunting yourself. You seem too dependent and fearful and that is a recipe for life-long stress and anxiety, both of which will ultimately kill you. Improve your independence and self-reliance, find another job.

I've hired and fired many people and I can tell you that getting fired is not that bad. Companies know there are bad companies and that personalities don't always mix. What matters most to a potential future employer is not if you've been fired but if you can actually do good work and you fit in. If you do good work and there are companies where you can fit in, you don't need to fear being fired from anywhere. You'll find your place.

mhurron

793 days ago

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> 2. DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL. Only say good things about your boss and how's he's so intelligent and you really respect his leadership and blah blah. Swallow your pride and openly acknowledge his criticisms of you and say this whole process is helping you grow as a person and be better. Repeat: DO NOT COMPLAIN TO HR/LEGAL NO EXCEPTIONS IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU THINK THEY ARE YOUR FRIEND. If you have negative things to say about him/the company, they will begin their campaign to disarm you and support the decision to let you go.

This is idiotic. Yes, HR is there to protect the company. However this advice relies on you stating that you believe your manager is correct and stating there is nothing wrong with the way your manager is acting or between you and them.

Given that, and your manager now recommends firing, since you have openly admitted your boss was correct in everything he is firing you for and made it clear there are no personal issues between you and your boss, HR is going to completely support the decision to fire you. You have shot yourself in the foot.

Nothing changes if you don't raise issues. HR is protecting the company, but that would also include not holding onto a manager with a lot of complaints against them.

supertruth

793 days ago

[-]

Thanks for calling my ideas idiotic. It probably seems that way because you're missing the subtext of this advice.

At worst HR/Legal will recommend that you get fired, at best you aren't on their radar. There is a very low chance that HR will go against your manager and fight for you. They just aren't incentivized that way: their job is to protect the company, not ensure fairness. HR people are awarded for cleaning up messes, not for interfering with the management structure. They risk more downside to support a single employee. In general HR departments are in a position of weakness when compared to management in companies.

His priority is to stay at the company, not make a change. The best way to maximize his chances of staying at the company is to not make a ruckus and do what his manager says. If he wanted to maximize his chances of making a change, however, the best way would be to go to his manager's manager. His manager's manager is actually incentivized to ensure his reports are doing good/non-illegal work. His chances of getting firing go up by taking that route, but in the slim chance his manager's manager has detected these sorts of problems in the past and is currently waiting for the straw that broke the camel's back then he might be successful.

I'm not advocating not making a change in the company, I'm just being logical w.r.t. to keeping his job right now. The spirit of my advice is "die another day." Right now he has very little influence to actually make change. Better to advance those goals once he's in a more stable position in the company. For him, the stakes are too high to risk martyrdom.

davemel37

793 days ago

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>"I am facing retaliation for reporting that her work was simply not correct."

>"this supervisor has been angry with me since I pointed out to him a few months ago that he may have violated firm policy in a severe way."

Is there a pattern here of noticing others mistakes and pointing it out them? Whether right or not, I know very few people who would want to work with someone constantly looking for their mistakes and jumping on the opportunity to point it out to them.

One thing is for sure, you are too much of a straight shooter to work in the "major firm" or atleast with the department you work for...clearly, they are less concerned with following every rule to the letter.

My advice, especially if you don't plan on changing, is to leave, and be open with interviewers about being a straight shooter...this will scare off the companies that you will certainly run into problems with, and hopefully help you find work with others who share your values.

late2part

793 days ago

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You're a data scientist - one of the hottest jobs out there. Go find a place where you don't work for an asshole, and you can have fun. Email me if you're having a hard time finding a job, I'll probably hire you.

davismwfl

793 days ago

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1. Don't quit before/unless you have another position, let them fire you.

2. Getting fired will not blackball you, companies do not validate anything generally beyond dates of employment, salary and sometimes "eligible for rehire", but that has become more uncommon to ask/answer. I have seen at large firms even when a person is terminated for valid reasons, and the manager and executives have said they will never work here again, HR will answer the question "Yes" to eligible for rehire. This is because they know answering it any other way can lead to a potential law suit which may unearth unrelated facts during discovery that would be damaging.

3. If you get fired and are on an interview, don't lie about being terminated if asked, and don't plea your case to them, they don't care and will not look fond on you pleading a case or dishing details on a former employer. If directly asked if you were terminated, just say yes I was let go. Generally most people won't push for why, but if they do, you could say something along the lines, well over the past few months (or whatever time period) my manager needed a different skill set on the team then I posses and so I wasn't a good fit any longer. Frankly, his/her skill set you were lacking is dishonesty or questionable morals however you want to look at it. So you aren't lying, just framing the conversation so it isn't negative to the company or really yourself.

4. Even in small towns you can find another job, larger towns is even easier, don't panic. It is scary but don't panic.

5. As for the situation, you can send an email to your manager or the the director in charge of your department again. Do it not with the goal of saving your job or making enemies, but with protecting your ass so that if something shady really is found later you are insulated. Make sure you keep a copy of the email and while likely not ideal, I would bcc my personal email as well as print a hard copy.

pekk

793 days ago

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It's simply false that companies do not validate anything beyond dates of employment. Supposedly all companies are so terrified of lawsuits they won't do anything, but actually there is no mechanism which will allow the candidate to discover what was mentioned on the back channel, and the good old boy network is very much alive. If someone wants to make sure you don't get hired, there are ways.

When it comes to your own life, please don't trust this Pollyanna advice from HN which is coming from people who have not had any problems like this.

HillRat

793 days ago

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"Back channels" are exceptionally rare between HR departments -- I've only heard of one significant network of HR departments willing to back-channel pejorative data about possible employees, and that was a set of industrial companies that had an ongoing problem with employees getting fired for failed drug screens, then cleaning up just long enough to go to the next firm. (Meth heads playing with 2000°F furnaces is a legal and operational nightmare scenario.)

Even so, it took years for the companies to start sharing anything, and even then the HR heads would do things like meet in the parking lots of rural truck stops to exchange names of problem employees. Basically, sharing pejorative employee info between companies is something that no competent HR professional is willing to do absent very good reason, executive direction, and a lot of attempts at tradecraft.

Having said that, ref checks can communicate quite a lot without communicating anything in particular; pregnant pauses and careful word choice can certainly say a lot. However, this is more a concern in SMBs where the ref check might land on the manager's desk instead of HR.

Now, if a company leader wants to screw you over and you're looking for employment in the SMB market, then, yeah, change cities. YPO is a freaking henhouse for gossip, and bad reputations move fast in those circles.

op00to

793 days ago

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"[...] there is no mechanism which will allow the candidate to discover what was mentioned on the back channel [...]"

If there's a back channel for the reference, there's a back channel to find out about a shitty reference. I'm instructed by my HR team to never, ever give references, and to refer folks inquiring to our contracted company that gives only dates of employment. 'Cause we got better things to do than get sued, even if we'd likely win.

hluska

793 days ago

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First, 'pollyanna advice' is unnecessarily harsh. Even saying 'overly optimistic' would be a huge improvement...

Second, yes there are ways that someone could keep another from getting hired, but they are supremely (as in multi-million dollar lawsuit) risky. When it comes to the back channel, it is important to remember that everybody talks all the time and favours never come free.

wpietri

793 days ago

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Perhaps you could share your experience? Rather than, say, implying without evidence that everybody but you is an idiot.

davismwfl

792 days ago

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My advice isn't Pollyanna advice. I have worked at Fortune 10 and Fortune 500 firms as well as in startups, plus I have run my own company for years now. In all those places I have held senior positions at one time or another. So my experience is real and practical. In the larger firms generally managers and above are trained to redirect all reference requests and employment verifications to HR, especially for employees who were terminated. This is a risk mitigation procedure by the companies, as lawsuits are real. And generally past employees do find out when employers try to damage them because of friends or sympathizers still at the company will reach out and let them know.

You say back channels are the way and the good ole boy network still exists. I agree to a point, but practical experience again is showing me that even using people I know they are reluctant to answer questions because they fear reprisal not just from lawsuits, but for what should happen when they need a job (direct quote from someone not too long ago). Today's person you fire could be your boss shortly down the road, so I think this contributes to why generally I find experienced people reluctant to give any real details. Exceptions happen though, and in cases of theft, arrest etc I have seen more direct responses since there is generally public record, but again, that is a very low percentage of times. Also, as @HillRat said, SMB's can be more volatile since they generally lack professional HR and so that is a little more subject to the good ole boy network and off the cuff comments. Or the pregnant pause as he also mentioned.

Personally in my current and past businesses, we will validate employment dates, salary if they already have the number (otherwise that is the employees personal data), job title and what the job position entailed. We generally give no indication as to why the person left or whether it was voluntary or not. In large organizations these types of calls go to an HR group or even to an outside firm that only has 4-5 pieces of data on people. Home Depot Supply at one time had an automated system that handled all verification of employment calls to prevent mishaps from happening. I have no clue if this is still the case, but it was creative.

If an employee leaves on their own, or asks me personally for a reference I will make a judgement call about if I will do it, how much to say and how to handle it. But in the cases where someone was terminated they rarely list that manager as a reference so those calls come from a verification of employment perspective, where we answer the bare minimum.

steven2012

793 days ago

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I've been in this same situation as you.

You can and will not win against your boss.

You can either try to transfer into another group outside of the reach of your current boss, or you need to leave. But the fact you are on performance review means that transferring might be very hard, unless you've made good relationships with other groups that would take you on.

Those are your only two options so act quickly. There is no way so salvage the situation. 30-day performance reviews are really just a way to fire you but to avoid a lawsuit.

I find it hard to believe you will be blackballed in the entire city unless you work in a very small city. But you have no choice. And next job you get, you should consider the things you say and who you are saying them to. Some people take criticism well, and others like your boss will try to fire you. Learn from this experience.

jqm

793 days ago

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"You can and will not win against your boss."

That is certainly not necessarily true. But it is a probably.

heldtogether

793 days ago

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It sounds very much like you're a whistleblower of some crime, which gives you protection against the sort of retaliation you're describing. See

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower

for more information about legal protection.

Now, you're not immune to workforce politics so there may still be reasons why you'd be fired but I definitely wouldn't accept it without finding out a lot more about your situation and potentially escalating the complaint.

s_q_b

793 days ago

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According to my counsel, whistleblower protection laws wouldn't necessarily apply in this case (IANAL, so I'm unsure as to why.)

Also, this industry does not treat whistleblowers well, so I'm hesitant to take this route, yet. But I want to make sure I follow firm policy very precisely regarding these issues, so I'm consulting closely with legal counsel.

dmethvin

793 days ago

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My thought is that you should speak to a lawyer who is experienced in these kind of disputes. Bringing in a lawyer to represent you pretty much burns the bridge but it sounds like you will either want or have to leave anyway. If this is a large company, they do not want to get involved in a protracted dispute, especially if it might become public. This is true regardless of what you have done that might legitimately make them want to get rid of you. Yes, you don't want to ruin your own reputation as an employee for a future employer, but they have much more to lose in most cases.

You would be surprised how far companies will go to avoid outright terminating someone. In past jobs I have been in management and had to deal with people who had anger management problems, drug problems, and sexually harassed co-workers. Despite the documentation for these issues they were given up to 6 months to find other jobs and/or terminated with several months of severance for signing an agreement they wouldn't sue.

A lawyer will generally give you a free consultation and could write a letter on your behalf for a few hundred dollars. If your case seems to have more merit, they may be willing to take it on contingency.

walshemj

793 days ago

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And also turning up with lawyer will increase the chance of getting a compromise agreement and will get your managers card marked by more senior people.

junto

793 days ago

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In summarising many of the excellent advice here you should:

Maintain your professionalism

Seek independent legal advice

Avoid HR like the plague

Assume that you will be fired. You cannot win.

Start looking for a new job immediately.

Document everything for any legal proceedings later.

Ask colleagues you trust if they would provide you with a reference once you have secured new employment.

Do not fear leaving your job for another. Opportunity knocks.

Good luck and remain positive. Don't let this get you down.

late2part

793 days ago

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If this is * fait accompli* and it is going to happen, then by all means, I would involve HR, under the advice of your counsel.

I would tell HR that you're being punitively punished for bringing up an ethics violation with your boss.

I would tell them that your counsel has advised you that you have certain rights, and you expect to be treated fairly.

I surmise that will force them to offer you more to get you to leave quietly, or maybe force them to investigate the asinine behavior of your boss, assuming we perceive the situation correctly.

Do Not Go Gentle into That Good Night!!!!

lightlyused

793 days ago

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"When I raised that issue, he immediately began the process of putting me on a 30 day review, a necessary step prior to termination."

Document document document. Don't quit your job and when and if they do fire you. Sue. It sounds to me like your manger is retaliating against you because they are trying to cover something up. That is never ok and if HR is not handling it, than stand your ground and let the lawyers handle it.

alexryan

793 days ago

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Whatever you do, do not allow yourself to feel like a helpless victim. That's what losers do. You are not a loser. But if you allow yourself to think like a loser you are finished. Not just in this job, but in life.

Decide what you really want first. Do you really genuinely want to stay? Sounds like the place is a little corrupt. I wouldn't want to stay there. But if you do, then own that choice and don't let anyone else tell you to run away.

There are an infinite number of ways in which you can manifest the future that you desire.

In workplaces that have been infested by people who care more about getting for themselves than giving something amazing to the world, you're going to have to play the political game.

I avoid those kinds of workplaces because I find doing so repulsive, but if you really want to stay, that's what you're going to have to do.

That means forming alliances and destroying your enemies. This guy who has taken action against you is doing so because he feels threatened by you. You could try to repair your relationship with him. Or you could take action to destroy him. Decide which you want to do.

It sounds like you are in the right. Know that a man who has right on his side, and who is absolutely confident and determined to do what is right no matter the cost is absolutely terrifying to the typically cowardly types who climb the corporate hierarchies at most companies.

Most will bend under the slightest threat you intend to stand up for yourself and take action against them.

You wield a lot more power than you think you do. Just believe in yourself and do what is right because it is right and people will rally to support you.

codegeek

793 days ago

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