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thecostumeplot · 3 years

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Episode 16: The Fall with Kelly Cercone

Please consult these Instagram slideshows for accompanying images: The Fall Part 1 The Fall Part 2

Sarah Timm & Jojo Siu Welcome to the costume plot.

Jojo Siu I'm Jojo Siu

Sarah Timm and I'm Sarah Timm. We're professional designers with a passion for costume design and the performing arts. Our podcast does contain spoilers. Accompanying slideshows for each movie are linked in the episode description.

Jojo Siu We hope you'll join us every other week as we delve into the wonderful world of costume design in The Costume Plot. [music]

Jojo Siu Hello, and welcome to the Costume Plot again.

Sarah Timm Welcome back. What an exciting episode. Let's dive right in. We have a very exciting guest with us today. She's a friend of mine from FIDM but you may know her from "Avengers Endgame", ever heard of it? Thor Ragnarok. American Horror Story. These are just some of her credits. She's a brilliant costume maker and many other things. You may know her from her Instagram "Anachronism in Action:, or as the winner of the "Her Universe fashion show". It's Kelly Cercone!

Jojo Siu Welcome, Kelly.

Kelly Cercone Happy to be here.

Sarah Timm Thank you so much for joining us. We are stoked to talk to you. What movie have you brought us and our listeners today?

Kelly Cercone I am super excited to be talking about "the Fall", which is probably my favorite movie of all time. And when you guys mentioned it during the "Mirror, Mirror" episode I was...I just got really excited and I messaged you pretty much a day later.

Sarah Timm And I was really excited because you are...I just want to say you're a great get for a podcast guest about a podcast about costuming because

Jojo Siu Absolutely!

Sarah Timm You're legit and amazing. But also I was saying this you off mic but everything that I know about the fall for the most part I know because of Kelly's posts and her cosplay of it. And I've just been an admirer of the costumes from afar, so I'm excited to deep dive into them today.

Jojo Siu Absolutely. I'm so glad we're covering this in a different way. Even if we don't cover another episode normally.

Kelly Cercone This movie has so many costumes in it. It would...it....There's a lot of ground to cover.

Jojo Siu Absolutely. Perfect for one episode.

Sarah Timm Totally. Yeah, we can really take our time. This is exciting.

Jojo Siu All right. So I already gave you power to share. So whenever you are ready, Kelly.

Kelly Cercone All right. Okay, so...should I...I'll just start by talking about the movie. A little bit?

Sarah Timm Yeah, tell us whatever you feel like we need to know before we get into the clothes.

Kelly Cercone "The Fall: was directed by Tarsem Singh and costume designed by Eiko Ishioka, which...this was the second movie that they collaborated on. The first being "The Cell" and then "The Fall", "The Immortals" and last "Mirror, Mirror" for which Eiko won her Oscar. The movie was loosely based off of a 1981 film called "Yo, Ho, Ho" which was a Bulgarian language film. It was released in 2006 at the Toronto Film Festival and theatrically released in 2008. And it had pretty mixed reviews when it came out. I guess a lot of people went to go watch it thinking it would be like a comedy and then were very surprised when it was not.

Sarah Timm Was it marketed more as a comedy? Because sometimes that's all in the marketing, you know?

Kelly Cercone I mean, I think people just thought it was gonna be like, oh, a fantasy adventure, you know, they weren't expecting it to be as sad as it is. The movie was largely funded by Tarsem himself. Because a lot of people were very confused when he tried to explain that he wanted to make a movie that was partially written by a four-year-old. And one of the things that he wanted to do, because he did "The Cell" because there was so much CGI in it, he really wanted to try and do the opposite of that. So all of the locations in the film, they're actually on location. And they filmed in 20 different countries over the course of four years. And he said of working with Eiko, "we heard Eiko was really difficult to get, but we fell down on our knees. It turned out to not be so hard. She worked on every one of my films." Oh, and "I had enough of that in my first film. As much as I enjoyed it. I decided in this one, the art direction was going to be in the landscape and in the costume design and nothing else." And I feel like you really see that in "The Cell" because it really is the setting...the places that he found. And then the costumes. There's not a lot of other bells and whistles until it comes to the storytelling. And this movie really is a love letter to storytelling. Because it wasn't very popular when it came out. It was very hard to research. I couldn't actually find any quotes from Eiko herself about the movie, which was really disappointing.

Sarah Timm We've had a few of those sometimes there's just no information to be had, you know?

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu I actually feel like I kind of had that with "Mirror, mirror" too. She just...there's not a lot she says about her work, because I think she sort of lets it speak for itself.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Oh, I did find one quote. This was right before she did "Mirror, mirror". She talked about how she wanted to try doing something computer generated, like "Toy Story", but in real life.

Sarah Timm Whoa!

Jojo Siu That would have been so cool.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. And she she said that she was actually disappointed that she got so famous for doing costume design, because she...I mean, she was a production designer and she had a really long award winning career as a graphic and advertising artists. So when she got really famous for costumes, that's the only thing people wanted to hire her for.

Sarah Timm Wow, I didn't know that.

Jojo Siu It makes a lot of sense. Like where that artistic vision comes from. Because of the graphic design background. Yeah, I can see a lot of that translation. That's so cool, though.

Kelly Cercone Because this movie is kind of hard to explain. I'm just going to read a plot synopsis. Because I feel like if we go costume to costume,

Sarah Timm It's gonna be bonkers.

Kelly Cercone You'll miss a lot because a lot about this movie is...it's like playing with archetypes, like storytelling archetypes. So a lot of the characters are those archetypes but they're also...it's kind of like the Wizard of Oz where it's double cast. So you'll see the real life person, that character in the story that's being told, shows up as. So, in 1915 Los Angeles, heartbroken stunt man Roy Walker is hospitalized and possibly paralyzed after taking a jump in his first film. He meets Alexandria, a young Romanian born patient in the hospital, who is recovering from a broken arm and begins to tell her a story about her namesake, Alexander the Great. Alexandria is told she has to leave, but Roy promises to tell her an epic tale if she returns the next day. The next morning, as Roy spins his tale of fantasy, Alexandria's imagine brings his characters to life. Roy's tale is about five heroes, a silent Indian warrior, and ex-slave, an Italian explosive expert, Charles Darwin, a pet monkey named Wallace and a massive swashbuckling bandit. An evil ruler named Governor Odious has committed an offense against each of the five who will seek revenge. The heroes are later joined by a sixth hero--a mystic. It quickly becomes apparent however, Roy has an ulterior motive for telling the story. He wants to gain Alexandria's trust, so hecan get her to steal medicine for him that he can use to commit suicide. I feel like this entire movie needs to have a trigger warning for suicide.

Sarah Timm Yes.

Jojo Siu Absolutely

Kelly Cercone It is riddled throughout the movie, from Roy's depression and suicide ideation, when he actually attempts to commit suicide. And some of the other characters also commit sort of suicide in different scenarios later on towards the end. And there's also child abuse, child manipulation and child death. There are parts of this movie that are really intense and they kind of sneak up on you. So for anyone who wants to skip the, the more emotional part of it, I would stop at the one hour and two minute mark or when Roy asks Alexandria if she likes chocolate.

Jojo Siu It's a good marker.

Sarah Timm Yeah

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Well, I looked it up because I...the movie. It's so pretty and fun. And then it just takes a hard turn, and if you're not expecting it, it can be a lot. Okay, so getting to the actual costumes now.

Sarah Timm Whoo.

Kelly Cercone This is Alexandria. And she spends the whole movie in this cast, which is really cute because she's always walking around carrying this box that has all of her special things in it. And a lot of the items in it show up in different ways throughout the movie. I know you guys like a good sweater. And she has a really cute sweater.

Sarah Timm We do!

Jojo Siu She knows

Kelly Cercone like it has this nice little detailing down the side and it's so cute. And I think it's supposed to be winter in Los Angeles, like they're definitely in LA, but I think it's supposed to be winter because otherwise, you would be way too warm to wear a sweater.

Sarah Timm Like a breezy 65. You know?

Kelly Cercone Yeah, exactly. And she spends most of the movie in various sort of dressing gowns, and they usually have a little bit of lace around the collar and sometimes some pin tucking. And they're just...they're super cute.

Sarah Timm She's adorable.

Kelly Cercone She IS adorable.

Jojo Siu I love how she's wearing this sweater around her cast.

Kelly Cercone Well, it wouldn't fit! It wouldn't fit otherwise.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Right. So cute.

Kelly Cercone And here's Roy. And you pretty much only see him in this shirt. And then later on another sweater. He basically in the real world, he wears the same outfit the whole time. And you never see him from the waist down, which I think was to sort of help sell that he was paralyzed. And I guess when they were filming, they didn't tell her that he could walk. She actually thought that he was paralyzed.

Sarah Timm Oh my gosh.

Kelly Cercone They they went really above and beyond to try and get a very authentic response from her. I guess, even though she didn't necessarily have lines, Lee Pace, who plays Roy, would say his dialogue and then she would respond...like improv respond. And then he would play along with her. So a lot of the dialogue in the movie she made up on the spot. And she didn't speak English. So a lot of her...you're actually watching her learn and speak English over the course of the film.

Sarah Timm Wow, that's amazing!

Jojo Siu I had heard that.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. And you can I mean, you can tell to like cuz you can, when she's speaking, you can kind of see that she's trying to figure out how to phrase a question.

Sarah Timm Mm hmm.

Kelly Cercone Um, but yeah, his shirt...I did notice, compared to some of the other characters that you see later on, that are wearing more modern shirts. He's actually wearing a slightly, what feels to me like a sort of Pioneer-y shirt. And I wondered if that was a nod to the fact that he's a stuntman and westerns. And maybe this is more what he's comfortable wearing. Because he's usually wearing something like this in a film.

Sarah Timm Interesting.

Kelly Cercone And all of the textiles in the hospital are very worn in, you know. They've probably been washed a million times, it looks very soft. And here is the two of them in bed. As they they spend pretty much the whole time storytelling in various snuggly positions, talking back and forth to each other.

Sarah Timm I did notice when I was watching it last night, I was like, wow, her. She's such a good actress. And you know, like children are not always really good actors. So I was definitely impressed by her. And it makes sense why it feels so natural is because it was it was because right being really natural. That's so

Kelly Cercone yeah. And the curtain that was around his bed, I guess sometimes they would cut holes in the curtain and film through the hole. So that it was just like sort of the two of them interacting. One thing that's worth noting, when you're watching the story unfold in this movie, Roy is the narrator. Like you're always hearing him speaking but what you're actually seeing is from Alexandria, his imagination. So there ends up being some kind of like funny visual dialogue jokes, because they're clearly thinking of different things.

Jojo Siu That's okay. So that was really fun part of the movie that I remember, I think they did that really well.

Kelly Cercone Oh, this is maybe more for later, but because stunt men are really important in this film. I wanted to show you guys this photo of the stunt men.

Sarah Timm Yes!

Kelly Cercone ...who played all of the main characters.

Sarah Timm Shout out, stuntmen.

Jojo Siu That's so great. That's awesome.

Kelly Cercone All right. First up is the bandit. Now this...three different characters wear this costume over the course of the film. The first person we see wearing it is Alexandria's father, and this is when Roy has decided to make him this character in her story. And he starts talking about him being one of the two brothers that bandit brothers. Later, Roy takes over that role when it becomes clear that Alexandria either doesn't understand what he's trying to do or doesn't want her father in the story. So Roy takes on the role of the bandit. And then finally towards the end of the movie, Alexandria inserts herself into the narrative and she becomes the bandits' daughter. She literally shows up and it's like "It's me! Your long lost daughter!"

Kelly Cercone And that's the two of them here.

Sarah Timm Oh my gosh.

Jojo Siu It's so cute.

Kelly Cercone It's...It's so cute.

Jojo Siu I very distinctly remember when I watched this movie, when she comes out with her little red mask, I was just like, "Yay!"

Sarah Timm Everything is cuter when you make it small.

Kelly Cercone And she's so cute. Like, I think she does.. she tips her little mask up, like "See! See!" This costume...First they start off by saying that he's Spanish, and later the bandit is switched to being French. So there's some sort of mishmashing of elements happening in his costume. But notable is the overly wide suede chaps. And I think that's kind of a nod to him, you know, as the bandit is riding a horse and stealing stuff. But they're very over the top.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone There's a lot of very subtle texture in his robe. It's a silk habotai. And the mask that they all wear is like a raw silk. And his belt has a lot of tooling on it. And the braid is also...I mean it has a very decorative pattern when you zoom in on it. And for how decorative his costume is...I mean, it's silk...you don't think of a bandit wearing a silk outfit riding a horse, but it's still very functional. You see him fighting and swashbuckling in this costume throughout the whole movie and it moves really beautifully.

Sarah Timm Yeah. Silk can really be...I think people associate silk with being really fragile and it's you know,

Kelly Cercone It's super strong!

Sarah Timm ....People associate charmeuse and chiffon and floaty and light, but it is really strong. It can be a real workhorse fabric.

Jojo Siu Definitely.

Kelly Cercone Next up is the slave Otta Benga. And the name that they gave him, I feel is a very intentional choice. This is something that Roy probably would have been aware of and why he chose this name because he's based off...er not based off of, but Otta Benga is the real last name of a real life enslaved man who was put on display in the Bronx Zoo in 1906. So Roy probably would have heard about this in the news and maybe that's why he chose the name. I also feel that he was an intentional choice because the real life Otta Benga died by suicide. So I think the director, you know, wanted to pay homage to him and also just thought that it tied in with the themes of the movie. Otta Benga, he broke out of his chains when Governor Odious killed his brother. So his headdress: I actually found some photos from the craftsperson who made the headdress, Adam Howarth, and he said that the beaded headdress was made from iron, iron pyrite or fool's gold. And the horns are resin. I tried to see if they were from any specific animal. And the closest I could find was a Scimitar Oryx.

Sarah Timm Mm.

Jojo Siu Mmm! It's a beautiful shape. And pattern.

Kelly Cercone The beading is also on the belts of his costume, along with some fur and some more suede. This is his real life counterpart. He is an ice delivery man to the hospital. And he teases Alexandria, because she comes and tries to eat some of the ice. And I noticed that he's wearing a hat. His hat is gray in both worlds. And he's wearing a little shawl here, which sort of comes back later. So I'm just pointing it out. But I like that they have these shots of him with a cart in both versions of the story.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Mmhmm. A lot of parallels.

Sarah Timm I had a whole watching that last night with the ice delivery. I had a whole like mental journey. I went on thinking about ice deliveries and how it used to be something that was like part of people's everyday lives and how wild that is.

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu That and milk delivery.

Kelly Cercone Yeah!

Sarah Timm There is a man who came and brought you the ice.

Sarah Timm Anyway. Blew my mind a little bit.

Kelly Cercone Next up is Luigi. And he is very stylish and tailored compared to everyone else. He has this long mustard cloak with little red lining that's visible periodically. And the back of the coat has this really beautiful raised embroidery applique and I love the neckline and the collar and the cuffs of his coat. It's these like circular pieces that have a lot of movement, like when he's, you know, pointing his gun or running around.

Sarah Timm I've never seen that sort of cuff before and it looks so cool.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I, I was trying to like find if there was any historical reference for it. And the closest I could come up to is in the 17th century, like sometimes you saw those kind of overlay circular shapes on shoe pieces.

Jojo Siu Mmm, mmhmm. Yeah.

Kelly Cercone I mean, it could not be that and....

Sarah Timm Right. The closest.

Kelly Cercone Spoilers, but in his death scene, he opens up his coat, and it has pockets!

Sarah Timm All the pockets!

Kelly Cercone Pockets full of dynamite. And I also don't...he has, what you think is a shirt is actually an asymmetrical vest that's open on one side?

Sarah Timm Look at that.

Kelly Cercone That's his shoulder and it goes down to his stomach.

Jojo Siu I was just thinking that. It's almost like a halter top.

Kelly Cercone It's just really unexpected. It's like the most...the most buttoned up covered character, when he's like, "Surprise!"

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm Secretly sexy inside.

Kelly Cercone And this is his real life counterpart, which is a friend of Roy's on a fellow stunt man, who has a prosthetic leg that shows up in various symbolic forms throughout the movie. Oh, yeah, I also like this one, because it shows that his real life counterpart is also more tailored than some of the other characters we see.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Kelly Cercone He's also wearing a nice suit and nice shoes.

Sarah Timm Tied together like the fantasy and real world versions.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Kelly Cercone Next we have the Indian. And he's a really good example of how Roy and Alexandria are interpreting the story differently, because it's clear from the phrasing that Roy uses that he's referring to a Native American. But Alexandria is picturing her friend from the orange groves, who is an Indian immigrant from India. So it becomes a bit of a joke.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone And his costume is beautiful. The outer shell is an emerald green organza that there's a lot of pleating in the skirt, and in the stylized turban, and it's worn over an underlayer that's sort of a rust, maybe cotton or linen. And at one point he rips...he pulls out a piece or rips off a piece to make into a blindfold, because after the death of his squaw, he made a vow never to look upon another woman. And the reason that his wife died was because of Governor Odious, which is why he wants to kill her.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone It's actually really really sad. He...Governor Odious...furthering the theme of suicide throughout the movie, Governor Odious kidnapped his wife. And when she wouldn't, I guess, love him, he put her in a maze that has no escape, except to jump off of a tower and kill yourself.

Sarah Timm Ugh. That's so dark.

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu Trigger warning number like 20 at this point.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, basically.

Sarah Timm I love that sheer green over the rust. That's...gorge.

Jojo Siu Yeah

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu That's one of my favorite color greens too. That emerald color. Ugh, It's so gorgeous.

Sarah Timm Love.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. And I mean, I have to think it was intentional, but his beard. I love his beard. It always looks sort of styled. They got it to go in the different directions. And when he takes off his turban later in the movie, he has this gorgeous long hair that you're just not really expecting to have been tucked up in there.

Sarah Timm I love that.

Kelly Cercone And next we have the naturalist, Charles Darwin.

Sarah Timm This coat.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Again, Adam Howard was one of the craftspeople who worked on it and he said that the coat...the reference for the coat was a highly magnified photo of a butterfly's wing, and that the shape was made with foam. And that the fur was hand colored.

Jojo Siu Oh my gosh!

Sarah Timm Wait, so underneath there is foam. Oh, that's amazing.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, to get it to have that structure and shape and to hold away from his body.

Jojo Siu Mm hmm.

Sarah Timm Wow.

Jojo Siu Even the arms.

Sarah Timm Yeah are the sleeves foam too?

Kelly Cercone Maybe I it didn't specify.

Jojo Siu There might be some in there.

Sarah Timm Yeah, it looks like it.

Jojo Siu Just the way it's kind of holding up.

Sarah Timm Yeah. That's so cool.

Jojo Siu Mmhmm.

Kelly Cercone And here's Wallace who spends most of the film being carried around in a little bag. Under the coat. He is wearing a white shirt and pants, which his real life counterpart is a hospital orderly, and he's pretty much wearing the same outfit. Like this is what Alexandria sees him wearing on a daily basis. And to remind the audience that he's British, I guess they put him in a bowler hat and jacket. Which makes...it makes a very nice look with the the coat. I'm not mocking it. It's just funny.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm It looks a little bit clockwork orange-y too.

Kelly Cercone I was thinking that, but I don't think that was what they wanted. Because Darwin is so not edgy.

Sarah Timm Yeah.

Jojo Siu Definitely not.

Sarah Timm I guess it's just the white outfit with the black bowler.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Timm That automatically calls it to mind, you know?

Kelly Cercone Yeah, no, the second he takes the coat off. You're like, Huh.

Jojo Siu Throwback.

Sarah Timm I've never seen Clockwork Orange by the way. I don't think I need to.

Jojo Siu It was a pretty disturbing movie. I watched it once. And I was like, mmmm...I don't need to see that again.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, it is. I mean, it is really pretty. The production design on that movie is so good.

Sarah Timm Yeah.

Jojo Siu Mm hmm. Yeah. Beautifully done, but hard to watch.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, for sure. Um, so next is the mystic. And he's sort of a combination of two characters. The other orange faker that Alexandria is a friend with and then Otto, who is an old man who is in the hospital. And he sort of...he comforts her at various points in the movie when she's afraid. And he makes jokes about having magic teeth and how to make monsters go away by saying oogly googly. So she sort of combines these two characters into, you know, a magic man who can kind of do a little bit of everything. And they meet him when he literally comes out of a tree. I forget if it's hit by lightning, or just spontaneously bursts into flame. But he crawls out of it and his hair are part of the tree and sort of scrambles out like roots. And he's slowly become sort of more human looking throughout the movie. Since they're all trying to find Governor Odious. He...I mean, he eats Darwin's map, which is poisonous. So then he goes to his friends and they do a ritual to make the directions to Governor Odious show up on his skin. So his skin becomes the map.

Sarah Timm Cool.

Kelly Cercone And the ritual that they do is based off of a real life chant called the Kecak. And it's a Balinese Hindu dance that is part of Ramayana and is traditionally performed in temples. The checkered robes that they're wearing is actually part of the rituals. So I like that they included that in the movie, even though they're using this ritual in a very non-traditional way.

Sarah Timm That's nice, like a little...

Jojo Siu That's so fascinating.

Sarah Timm Yeah, like a little nod to the real life thing. That's cool.

Jojo Siu I'm trying to remember now, because my family went and saw an original Balinese temple dance, but I assume it was not the same thing because they weren't wearing exactly this, but a lot of the movements now are making me try and remember if they did anything similar when I watched it, but it's so fascinating, though.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Well, I mean, from what I read, it's part of a specific story, that it's part of telling the story. So I mean, maybe they don't perform it outside of telling that story.

Jojo Siu Right, right.

Kelly Cercone So Governor Odious' soldiers are based off of....At one point in the movie Alexandria sees a man doing x-rays, and it really, really scares her so the soldiers become the nightmare version of the 1920s X-ray outfit, which is a leather apron with a metal breastplate and helmet. And they take that and they sort of...really dehumanize it by blacking out the face and the eyes. And they take away their hands, they take away features that make them recognizable as humans.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone And they sort of move in a pack in the movie. Like they have very stylish movements and all of the noises they make are hyenas.

Sarah Timm *gasp.

Kelly Cercone So they're like, cackling.

Jojo Siu So creepy.

Sarah Timm Wow. That's...that's extremely creepy. I feel like I should explain to the listeners that I tapped out at the 40 minute mark of this movie, but I definitely intend to go back. I've had a long week. And I was like, I can't pay attention this tonight. It deserves my attention.

Jojo Siu Save it for another day.

Sarah Timm So some of these are a surprise to me and some are not.

Jojo Siu Yeah, I can only imagine as a four-year-old.

Kelly Cercone They're...I mean, they're definitely...they're not in a ton of scenes. But they're...I mean, they're just so beautiful. In a creepy way.

Sarah Timm Oh, yeah.

Jojo Siu Creepy to a four year old, but really beautiful for us.

Sarah Timm The helmet almost...it looks almost like, I don't know, a kitchen appliance or something. But like a very evil one.

Jojo Siu And almost like it's formed to the head

Kelly Cercone Like a coffee grinder or a pepper grinder. Or a blender.

Jojo Siu Like a deformed one, that's gotten kind of crushed in.

Sarah Timm I just went to IKEA today. Maybe I just have home furnishings on my brain. The gloves are very creepy.

Jojo Siu Yeah, it's like they have spoons for hands.

Sarah Timm That's how I draw my hands because I can't draw. So I just draw like a little diamond.

Jojo Siu A little spoon or spade.

Sarah Timm It's just kind of like this.

Jojo Siu Very creepy.

Kelly Cercone So next up is Governor Odious. So part of what is feeding into Roy's depression is...the movie that he was in, he was dating the lead actress in the film. And she breaks up with him and starts dating the lead actor in the film, who is Sinclair. So Sinclair takes on the role of Governor Odious in the story, because Roy really hates him and Alexandria picks up on that. So in real life, he's wearing a striped suit jacket, which is very warm and kind of soft looking. and stylish white pants, and then the story counterpart of him. He's wearing also a stripe coat, but it's very shiny and slick and colorful. And it's just a little over the top. And I don't know if they...he ends up dying in a pool. And I don't know if that was meant to be a "Great Gatsby" reference or not. But it is the 19-...he's very 1920s.

Sarah Timm I feel like 1920s man dying in a pool is...you can't help but think of "Great Gatsby".

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu Very true.

Sarah Timm I like that fabric.

Sarah Timm Smart fabric.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. And his vest...

Jojo Siu It's a really nice color.

Kelly Cercone I don't know, it's very hard to see but it does....this vest also has stripes.

Kelly Cercone Hmm. Love it.

Jojo Siu Beautiful. It's got a nice play of textures.

Kelly Cercone So after they have the map, they...they're trying to find Governor Odious. And they come upon this big wagon and they think he's inside, but they open it up and surprise. It's actually Evelyn. And Evelyn is a very complicated character, because she embodies a lot of the heartbreak and mixed feelings that Roy is having about his girlfriend and she's played by nurse Evelyn or sister Evelyn, who is a nun who works in the hospital. So she has...you first see her in her cute little nun outfit, nurse outfit, which is very starched and clean. And you only see Roy's ex-girlfriend for a second and she's wearing a very simple linen sort of driving suit. When I think of pictures of Edwardian ladies wearing driving suits with the big hats, but she has hair that is a little more 1930s.

Kelly Cercone Mmhmm

Jojo Siu Mmhmm.

Kelly Cercone When she appears in the story as Princess Evelyn, she's wearing this...

Jojo Siu Ugh. My favorite.

Kelly Cercone Beautiful gown.

Sarah Timm There it is.

Jojo Siu So beautiful.

Kelly Cercone This costume is very Chinese inspired, from the reference pictures that I looked up. I am going to guess that it was inspired by the Ming Dynasty specifically. And then it has very stylized Lotus embroidery down the front and these bands that...they're sort of... when you look closely, they're not completely attached. They're kind of floating on the surface of this sleeve to make this...just her sleeves very structured and a focal point. And she has this very elaborate hat with a veil of fans that then open.

Sarah Timm Oh, that's so cool.

Kelly Cercone And surprise! She has pants underneath, I think.

Sarah Timm Beautiful and functional.

Kelly Cercone Oh no wait that's just her sleeves. I'm wrong. Oh well this...this scene is funny, because I...Oh wait, you didn't get that far!

Sarah Timm I'm sorry.

Kelly Cercone She's like....Roy's telling this story, right? And he can tell that Alexandria has to go pee. But Evelyn is acting out that she has to go to the bathroom as she's talking to him. And it's so funny.

Sarah Timm Okay, yeah. That's hilarious.

Jojo Siu You must watch the second half of this movie soon Sarah.

Sarah Timm At 11 when I was turning it off. I was like 'Kelly's gonna beat me up'.

Kelly Cercone Well, now you'll just have a greater appreciation when you watch it.

Jojo Siu It's true.

Sarah Timm Exactly. Yes.

Jojo Siu You'll catch all the little trips.

Kelly Cercone So next, Alexandria has decided that she wants romance in the movie, or in the stories, so she sort of pushes Roy to make this a romantic love interest. And we see Evelyn in this very, very over the top sort of fairy princess. And there's a corseted bodice, so I'm like, maybe it's a little bodice ripper, although she's probably way too young to know what that is. I mean, this just screams romantic heroine. And she has a line about how feeling like, "I was like a bird in a cage". And then there's music playing and Alexandria is singing her lines. And then she literally has birds. So the story is like...because you find out she was betrothed to Governor Odious. And she's like, "Oh, I've been rescued now by this bandit, and he loves me!" So, you know, this is their great moment here.

Sarah Timm Classic romance novel sort of story.

Kelly Cercone And her locket that she's wearing is the same locket that Roy gave his girlfriend in real life. So a lot of his...he's having a lot of feels in this scene. And he's taking them out on her, even though, I mean, it's really his feelings about his ex-girlfriend.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone I tracked down the patternmaker--the woman who originally made this costume--her name is Jane Law, and she has some pictures on her website and surprise! The costume apparently originally had sleeves.

Sarah Timm I was gonna say...

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm What're those?

Kelly Cercone They're never in the movie. So I think they must have just decided they didn't want to use them for whatever reason. And I found another picture of the same costume in a museum. And there, it only had one sleeve.

Jojo Siu Only one sleeve. Interesting.

Sarah Timm That's odd.

Jojo Siu It's like seeing all the different options of what you could and couldn't do with this.

Kelly Cercone But I mean, I love this costume. It's my favorite costume. And I mean, I just love like when you zoom in on the bodice, there's all of this texture from this lace that was clearly hand-painted and just very lovingly applied everywhere.

Sarah Timm This is the one you've made.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. Or the one I cosplayed. I didn't make this one. But I made a cosplay of it. Yeah, 'cause...right.

Sarah Timm Right, right, right, right. Yes.

Kelly Cercone Yeah. I pretty much watched this movie and then instantly lost my mind.

Jojo Siu It makes sense.

Sarah Timm We all have those moments.

Jojo Siu Especially with how beautiful these costumes are.

Kelly Cercone Oh, I forgot to show you earlier. But when...on the anniversary of Eiko's birthday, the year after she passed away. Google did a Google Doodle of her and the costumes they did were from "The Fall". So these were the three little Google doodles that they did, so it's Evelyn's Lotus dress, Luigis coat, and then, her wedding dress, which I will show you in a minute.

Sarah Timm That's so cool.

Jojo Siu So exciting!

Sarah Timm What a nice little tribute.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Kelly Cercone So yeah, after...

Sarah Timm Somebody at Google has taste.

Kelly Cercone After their little love fest, they decide to get married. And I love that each of the characters...they get slightly more dressed up. So Otta Benga puts on a orange, iridescent orange robe. The Indian puts on a little jewel brooch on his turban and The Mystic puts on gold face paint.

Sarah Timm Just a little gussied up.

Kelly Cercone It's very simple, but they really made an effort for their friend and this scene is very surreal because at this point, Roy has taken what he thinks is a whole bottle of morphine. So he's kind of tripping out and is spinning, and then they're surrounded by Sufi's...like Sufi dancers who are doing a meditative dance, and it's very surreal and beautiful.

Sarah Timm I love the big skirts.

Jojo Siu And can you just explain to us what the Sufi dancers are for our audience members who do not know what that is

Sarah Timm I don't know what that is. I was nodding my head like I knew, but I don't.

Jojo Siu Sorry to put you on the spot, 'cause I realized I was like "oh I don't think I know what that is."

Kelly Cercone I knew I wouldn't remember everything, so I tried to take notes.

Jojo Siu Totally fine.

Kelly Cercone It is a meditative practice for a certain branch of Islam. So that, I guess it's a ritual.

Jojo Siu Very cool. Thank you, I'm sure we would have one person out there asking that.

Kelly Cercone In this movie, it's probably very stylized and not how it is in real life. I would assume...

Jojo Siu Right

Kelly Cercone ...because I feel like I have seen videos of Sufi dancers before and it does not look like this, and one thought that I had about the colors of their outfits, which I will come back to, after we talk about her wedding dress, but I think that this color choice of the white over the blue was intentional. So, This is Evelyn's wedding dress. And as you can see, it is just...

Sarah Timm That's so beautiful,

Kelly Cercone It has sleeves similar to her Lotus dress but they're much more structured, they're almost padded, or I think they are padded or quilted with rolls. The fabric is a very 3-D jacquard, and maybe even trapunto like here on the sleeves, you can see there are these raised portions. And it has sleeves like her Lotus dress but it's much more fitted and even has like a bustle in the back. These pleats fan out over something, doing support here and I see maybe an outline of a hoop. And yeah and I mean her headdress is just amazing...

Jojo Siu Just phenomenal.

Kelly Cercone This film has a lot of use of veils and masks, as I'm sure you've seen, which I can only assume is symbolic of hiding one's true feelings and emotions and motivations, and so there's a lot of duplicitousness in this movie.

Sarah Timm Yeah, the padded rolls remind me sort of, of kimonos. We had to make one for M. Butterfly that you would have to you know, like roll a whole thing of batting, you know, every hem is like this padded rolls.

Kelly Cercone I mean, you can kind of see, it does look like it is also padded at the hem. You can see kind of a little tulle down there.

Sarah Timm Yep, It's a cool effect.

Jojo Siu I think a lot of the kimonos have that layered sleeve look too, so it's kind of...it's very reminiscent of that.

Kelly Cercone I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure even if she wasn't thinking of that, it was in her design aesthetic, obviously.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Kelly Cercone So, going back to the Sufi's for a second. When I was also looking through her scenes, it kind of made me think of like a bed comforter, which then led me down this thought train of like, "Oh well, maybe the white over the blue is supposed to be symbolic of the weight of his relationship, and heartbreak is smothering him, like a too-big blanket. It might be a stretch, but I was like, "hmmm, it's just late night" .

Jojo Siu While you're in bed. It makes sense. I can see that connection there.

Sarah Timm Even if it's not something that was intended by the filmmakers, it's fun to sort of find those little, maybe symbolic things that you can read into as a viewer,

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I mean, this movie has so many things in it that you can take symbolism from and I'm sure there's even more, 'cause I'm watching this as a Western person, and the director is Indian, and I'm sure there's a lot of cultural references in here, that I'm not picking up on.

Jojo Siu Right.

Kelly Cercone And a lot of people that actually pointed that out is that there's so much interplay of different points of view, like from Roy and Alexandria and then....When you're talking about this movie being about a love letter of storytelling, it's sort of also the collaborative process of storytelling because the story changes so much throughout the course of the movie based off of the different points of view.

Jojo Siu I think that's a very non-western trope as well, of storytelling because we talk about passing stories down through generations. And I think that also carries through this movie, very very well, not just from his perspective but also from Eiko's perspective too, I think, 'cause having all those different layers, there's so much symbolism and kind of religious mysticism, that's a very big part of Eastern culture and Eastern sensibilities that I think definitely shows up. So I think that's a great point. So beautiful.

Kelly Cercone I mean, this is kind ofthe last big costume. There are a few minor things after this but, I mean really after this, it's kind of like a cartoon where a lot of the characters stay in the same costume the whole time.

Sarah Timm I like it.

Jojo Siu I think this touches on so much of what's in there though. This gives us a really good smattering of all the characters and how we see each of them in the real life, and also the fantasy element in that parallel is really fun. And what a great challenge for a costume designer to be able to kind of come up with two very distinct, but "they need to tie together" looks.

Sarah Timm Yeah.

Kelly Cercone And I guess...oh yeah! I just thought of this right now: she's wearing a very structured white hat, and when she's a nun, she's also wearing a very structured white hat. There's just so many parallels. I love it.

Jojo Siu Yeah, Eiko really thinks of everything, like in all of her movies, that's all I've ever seen.

Kelly Cercone I mean this movie... this movie had a $30 million budget! That's nothing...like it's insane that they made this movie was so little money. I know $30 million sounds like a lot and it's not for a giant movie.

Sarah Timm Not for a movie with this...

Jojo Siu Especially with all those locations too! It's insane.

Sarah Timm Well, it's like we were talking about earlier the triangle of cheap, fast and good. They picked cheap and good, and it took them four years.

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu Yep. It took them a very long time, but it was worth it.

Sarah Timm The correct decision.

Jojo Siu Yeah. Very, very true. Well thank you so much, Kelly this was so much fun. It was nice to kind of revisit the costumes, especially since I hadn't seen it in so long and I was like, "oh yeah that's what happens in this movie!" But yes, it was fun to see all of them again, and all the characters again and kind of be reminded of what happened.

Kelly Cercone I was so happy to have a chance to really dig in and research this movie because I learned even more about it and it just made me love it more, so to hear about all of the behind-the-scenes work that went into it, like what I actually managed to find, made me just love it even more.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm That's half the fun of making this podcast is the research part. I know that I have had such a good time, especially if it's one of my favorite movies, you know, finding out all these tidbits that I didn't know before, and it just deepens your appreciation for it and especially not even just as a film but it makes you appreciate the craftspeople who put their work into it and made it what it is.

Jojo Siu For sure.

Kelly Cercone Because they shot in so many different countries, they hired...a lot of times, it was a local crew, so when I was looking at the costume crew, it would be like "Seamstress: India, Seamstress, Italy". It's really...they pulled from a huge talent pool to make it happen.

Jojo Siu That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. I feel like that adds so much more of that authenticity to the process to knowing that you're not just getting one team working on everything and not saying that they can't make it beautiful, but you're getting a little bit from every country, and seeing some of that sense based on that seamstress or that team or whatever is going to whoever is going to be around.

Kelly Cercone One of the themes of the movie is collaboration and different points of view. You're actually getting input from all of these different people from all these different countries.

Sarah Timm Yes.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm Yes, completely.Well, great job.

Jojo Siu I know. Yay for all the prepwork!

Sarah Timm Expertly done.

Kelly Cercone Thank you.

Jojo Siu It was.

Sarah Timm So do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about...maybewhat you do in, you know the entertainment industry? What do you do?

Kelly Cercone Yeah so, I am a member of the Motion Picture Costumers, local 705, and I am a table person, which is really the equivalent of a firsthand for people who are in theater and know what that means. But on a daily basis, I will assist the cutter/fitter or pattern maker with easily whatever they need help with, whether that'sfinishing patterns or cutting out fabric, stitching, sort of like organizing prioritizing projects, I mean, I'm essentially an assistant to the cutter/fitter.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Very cool.

Sarah Timm That's kind of what I do in theater, so it's funny that we sort of are parallel, but in different industries. So what have been some of your favorite projects? You could say some of your favorite films you've worked on or even favorite pieces that you're really proud of having a hand in.

Kelly Cercone There's so many. I mean I was like, over the moon when I got to work on the Mandalorian, because I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and

Sarah Timm Yeah!

Kelly Cercone I was...when I found out that they were me filming it in Los Angeles, I was snooping hardcore to try and get any information, so that I could get on that show and then I was working on Avatar, and we were walking around the studio and I looked over and I saw a poster with Boba Fett's face on it and it was like, "They're filming it here?" Literally it was two stages over.

Sarah Timm Oh my god, "I'm just gonna walk in and pretend like I already worked there."

Jojo Siu Just show up and sit down and start working.

Sarah Timm I've been here the whole time I'm sewing this thing, what are you talking about?

Jojo Siu What do you mean you don't know who I am?

Sarah Timm That's rad.

Kelly Cercone Yeah,

Jojo Siu That is pretty awesome.

Kelly Cercone That was very...

Jojo Siu Very cool.

Kelly Cercone All the Marvel films I've worked on have been really great. Yeah, and there was one pilot that I worked on that we got to make so many amazing costumes and the pilot never came out. I just get sad every time I think about it, but I mean that just happens

Sarah Timm It does.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Kelly Cercone I don't even know what the ratio is, of pilots that get canned versus into shows, but I mean it happens.

Sarah Timm What was it called?

Kelly Cercone It's called "Hieroglyph", and it was gonna be the Egyptian version of Game of Thrones.

Jojo Siu Fascinating!

Sarah Timm I would watch that.

Jojo Siu That makes me sad that it never went anywhere!

Kelly Cercone The trailer used to be up on Hulu. I don't know if it still is, but it was for a while, which surprises me. Why would you put up the trailer, if you're never going to make the show? But, okay. I mean I'm still happy to see it

Sarah Timm True. Those are for advertising things.

Jojo Siu It's true. So sad.

Sarah Timm I assume that the costumes you made for them are hopefully...hopefully they'll be used for something else lovely right.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know where they ended up. They could be in a rental house somewhere.

Sarah Timm Yeah.

Kelly Cercone They don't tell me these things.

Jojo Siu They just disappear. You never see them again.

Sarah Timm So what brought you to costuming? Do you have a specific experience in your life? Or did you always know that it was something you wanted to do?

Kelly Cercone I always knew that it was something I wanted to do, or I knew I wanted to do something, sewing related. I remember my mom telling me when I was like six or seven.We were in the car going somewhere and she turns to me and she's like...or...I turned to her and apparently I claimed that I was going to become of corset maker one day, and she was like, "okay, honey, that's...that's great".

Sarah Timm That's hilarious.

Kelly Cercone I mean I did! I become a corset maker! But yeah, I mean I think...it didn't really...it stupidly didn't really occur to me until I was in high school and saw the Lord of the Rings movies, I was like, "Oh right! This is like a JOB, job." And then I was like, "I'm gonna do that". I had a brief stint in high school, where I was like, "Oh!" or...No, I would say in junior high, where I was like "Oh! Maybe I'll become a marine biologist" and then it was like, "No I want to make costumes".

Sarah Timm I feel like...

Jojo Siu I think I had that in ninth grade too, like, "I'm gonna be a doctor".

Sarah Timm I know a lot of people who are like, "Oh yeah, I had a marine biologist phase". Everybody has a phase like that when they remember they're like "The ocean is rad. I'm gonna be a marine biologist".

Kelly Cercone Well, I mean it's like...I grew up watching National Geographic. Glorious.

Jojo Siu So fascinating. The ocean IS fascinating. There's so much in there.It's magical.

Kelly Cercone I actually met a marine biologist, and she's like, "I had literally the opposite experience. I was in school and I thought I was gonna become a fashion designer and then I became a marine biologist.

Sarah Timm Oh my god.

Jojo Siu How funny. When do you ever hear that?

Sarah Timm Did you have a Freaky Friday at some point?

Jojo Siu And just never switch back.

Sarah Timm Wow.

Jojo Siu That's so funny. So how, if you don't mind me asking, how did you kind of first get into, you know, costuming for movies? I know you said you went to FIDM with Sarah, but what was your kind of first transition between?

Kelly Cercone While I was still in school, I interned for a local stylist Mildred of Mother of London, and a lot of...she had a clothing line, but she would also do custom pieces for a lot of musicians, and then that sort of rolled into making costumes for small independent movies. And once I graduated, I mean not immediately, but...'cause you have to get 30 days to join the union, and it took me a while to get 30 days. But I was working at an all local costume house, off and on, and kind of just...I think my first...actually "hieroglyph" was the first big pilot that I worked on. And it was through people that I had met at FIDM through Paul, our teacher, and he put me in touch with Christie, who is the costume designer on "heiroglyph".

Sarah Timm It really is all about who you know.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm All of my jobs pretty much have stemmed from my first internship that I took after college, you know it's because I met that person through that, and I met them through that and it's, you know, people I've met, just through one single job.

Jojo Siu It's true. Very, very true. Very cool. Well thank you so much for telling us all about that Kelly, it's been really fascinating to hear about all the perspectives of how people get into our industry. Because I think that's also, like...We are hitting people that are obviously in our industry, but we're also hitting a lot of people who totally have no idea what we do so it's cool to be able to hear both perspectives.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, and it's very opaque from the outside. I get a lot of people messaging me asking for advice and, you know I explain it as best I can but it's really not a clear process, or even just to explain to people. They're like, "do I need a master's degree?" and I'm like, "No, you just need to be able to do the job."

Sarah Timm Yeah.

Jojo Siu Right.

Kelly Cercone And that's the opposite that most industries, you know, tell students.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm Right.

Kelly Cercone I mean, not that education is bad, I think education is amazing but it can feel very backwards sometimes.

Jojo Siu Yeah, very true.

Sarah Timm I feel left out a lot as a costume as a theater costume designer specifically that I don't have a master's, because so many working costume designers do, and I'm always just like, I have the same skill set, you know, it's just an extra thing that I didn't do. So it's interesting, what industries that matters, and then what industries it doesn't.

Jojo Siu Well, and...to be honest, where you're working Sarah, I don't really think it does matter that much. If someone DOES have an MFA, there's sometimes where I'm just kind of...I don't...It was like an extra thing. It's certainly not something that's getting me more work.

Sarah Timm Right.

Jojo Siu I mean, I shouldn't say that it's gotten me some, but it hasn't gotten me all of my jobs.

Kelly Cercone Yeah.

Jojo Siu For sure.

Kelly Cercone It's probably more...I mean, more networking.

Jojo Siu Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Cercone Showing people that you can work hard and, you know...do the work.

Jojo Siu Yeah, totally. I think it also is about how well you work with other people right. We keep talking about collaboration and that's such a huge part of our industry too. It's not just about getting the job done. It's also about getting along with the people you're working with. so that they'll want to hire you. No one wants to work with someone who's horrible to work with, regardless of how good your skill is. Unless you know...unless you're really that far above and beyond. But most of the time., if you have a reputation for being that horrible on every job, you kind of start, you start filtering out a little bit.

Sarah Timm Yeah I think if you're established you can be a jerk to people and still get jobs, but if you're not yet, then you're not gonna get hired back.

Kelly Cercone If you've won an oscar, you can be a jerk.

Sarah Timm I should tell that to some of the jerks that I've worked with. Be like, "Excuse me, you didn't win an Oscar? Then you don't need to yell at me. Thanks so much.

Jojo Siu Yeah, totally agree. Well, thank you so much, Kelly. I hope you had fun.

Sarah Timm Yay!

Kelly Cercone I'm was just like, oh god I love this movie so much. I was like, I hope I'm not giving way too much information, and that this makes sense. Because there's so much in this movie to love.

Sarah Timm It's very dense.

Jojo Siu Yes.

Kelly Cercone But worth really diving into the nitty gritty of. I think.

Jojo Siu That's the fun of these podcasts too though. It's where you really do get to kind of dive in deep and take the time to talk about it. I feel like when we have an hour to talk about two movies, it always feels really rushed, but it's nice to be able to take our time through one and really go in.

Kelly Cercone I'm really are impressed with how much ground you guys manage to cover in one episode with two things. I'm always like, "How are they being so succinct, and descriptive?"

Jojo Siu Thank you for saying that because we certainly don't feel that.

Kelly Cercone No it was great. It's great.

Sarah Timm That's the best feedback we've ever gotten. I'm so thrilled to hear that. I'm leaving this in the episode.

Jojo Siu Especially when half the time we're like "Sarah I feel like I've talked too much. Did I cover everything? I don't feel like anybody knows what we're talking about."

Sarah Timm It's funny because a lot of the times, we'll alternate. The one episode JoJo will talk for 40 minutes and I'll talk for 20, and then we'll switch the next episode. So it's like...we kind of just fill in the spaces as needed.

Jojo Siu Very true.

Sarah Timm But yeah. Thank you for joining us to nerd out about costumes, It's the best.

Kelly Cercone Thank you for having me.

Sarah Timm You're so welcome. Can you tell our listeners where to find you on the internet, if they feel inclined? They're probably...I think, based on discussions there's only one place, but tell them where that is.

Kelly Cercone Yeah, I am sort of taking a break from social media. So really the only thing I have right now is Instagram, which I periodically update. But a lot of my prior work and tutorials and whatnot are still on there for people to look at and I respond to questions, almost all the time, as long as they're not creepy.

Sarah Timm We'll link you in the episode description, so that people can go right to you in the profile.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm Awesome.

Jojo Siu Cool. Well thanks again, this was really successful. Great job Kelly!

Kelly Cercone Thank you

Sarah Timm All right, so that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it.

Jojo Siu Yeah, and join us next time.

Sarah Timm Yeah we have some good movies coming up.

Jojo Siu Yeah.

Sarah Timm I'm excited about it!

Jojo Siu I'm excited!

Sarah Timm Alright, that's it.

Jojo Siu Thanks everyone. We'll catch you on the next one. Bye!

Sarah Timm Bye!

Jojo Siu Thank you for listening to the Costume plot. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thecostumeplot. If you have a question, comment or movie suggestion, you can email us at [email protected].

Sarah Timm Our theme music is by Jesse Timm, and our artwork is by Jojo Siu. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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