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ahalliance · 6 months

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some notable moments from the qsmp meta talk antoine, étoiles, baghera and co had yesterday, including the stuff i mentioned in this post <3 subtitles in eng, transcript in eng below the cut as well (I apologize for the bad video quality my wifi hates me)

[Video Transcript:

[First clip begins]

Etoiles: I’m— I’m gonna go on QSMP, I think

ZeratoR: (laughs) This really made him want to play Minecraft

Baghera: Ohh, lucky, I miss it

Etoiles: But— you still can’t come back?

Antoine: Well, technically, she could come back, but I don’t think it’s as simple as that

Baghera: (pained) Not as simple as that….

ZeratoR: What are you waiting for?

Etoiles: It’s Lost, it’s Lost

Antoine: Well, her character is dead in game

ZeratoR: Ahhh… but isn’t there a way to— to— a gimmick?

Antoine: No but don’t worry, there’ll probably be a gimmick (laughs) there’ll probably be a gimmick, don’t worry

Baghera: Don’t worry, don’t worry—

Antoine: No, she’s banned from the server! She’s banned from the server, it’s over

ZeratoR: Sucks! How did you die?

Antoine: Nuclear explosion

Baghera: Nuclear— yeah, nuclear explosion

ZeratoR: Ah yeah indeed you’re dead

Etoiles: That should have technically killed everyone—

Antoine: I hadn’t been there for a long time!

Etoiles: Well, I wasn’t there either— oh, well, you (laughs) you—

Antoine: I was elsewhere, I was elsewhere, dude

Etoiles: What a fraud you are (laughs)

ZeratoR: Where were you?

Antoine: I was elsewhere— somewhere else, I can’t say, it’s my lore, dude (laughs)

Etoiles: It’s his lore!

Antoine: I can’t say, dude, it’s my lore, dude

Étoiles: Antoine’s lore—

Baghera: Oh wow, you played around with that? Damn, I didn’t even see

ZeratoR: Basically he was glued to the bomb but well played to him

Etoiles: The lore in question (laughs)

Antoine: The lore in question, dude, it’s mad

Baghera: Take of yourselves guys! This was so cool

[Everyone says goodbye]

[Baghera leaves the call]

ZeratoR: Basically he was glued to the bomb but he found a gimmick

Antoine: Yeahhhh

Etoiles: The lore in question, just being the goat

Antoine: Yeah but the problem is that it’s my lore in every game, dude

Etoiles: (laughs) Oh but it’s really that. Antoine’s lore is being the goat

[Second clip begins]

Etoiles: Something that makes me laugh a bit is the fact that because there’s so many open plotlines it leads to fan theories that are sometimes really fun. There was a moment when my character’s skin, well, it was made for me with white eyes. And well I used it because I found it cool. And, actually, when I put it on, I read 65 tweets from people going, ‘hey, did you know that Etoiles’ character is blind because he actually lost his eyesight because he was—‘

Antoine: But you know on this server, the moment you say any sentence it gets overinterpreted in every way

Etoiles: It’s so funny—

Antoine: What’s wild is that there’s a billion theories on things, and for my part there are people that have understood some stuff about the theory and everything, which I find rather fun

Etoiles: Well it’s— you can’t reproach them because—

Antoine: Oh no precisely, I don’t want to reproach them, on the contrary I find it so cool!

Etoiles: Yeah but it’s funny the extent to which they get in their heads about it— like, you say one sentence on the server and you read a whole text of 65–

Antoine: Yeah, yeah it’s that

Etoiles: It’s really so funny

Angle Droit/Florence: Hmm, he said he was hungry at this given time, it’s surely a coded message

Etoiles: It’s really that!

Antoine: No but really, it’s really that, you know

Etoiles: But you know it’s honestly that, Florence

Antoine: You say a little sentence that’s supposed to be a joke and it’ll be interpreted seriously because ‘there’s this, and this, and that’, you see. But the thing is, it’s often completely wrong, but sometimes it’s correct. So they have every reason to continue theorising, honestly, I find. I think they have every reason to continue theorising, it’s very interesting

Etoiles: You’re just correct the goat, dude

[Third clip begins]

Etoiles: Basically I can say it because it’s out of roleplay and I think Antoine already knows it, because sometimes people are like, ‘yeah you can’t spoil the other streamers!’ but the streamers see everything—

Antoine: I know everything that happens on QSMP

Etoiles: —it’s just that the streamers don’t use the info rp wise. Basically I’m apart of an organisation on the server—

Antoine: What, you’re kidding, dude?!

[The others laugh]

ZeratoR: What the fuck?!

Antoine: I’m not supposed to know that, dude!

Etoiles: Basically I’m apart of an organisation that’s called the Resistance—

Antoine: (scoffs)

Etoiles: —and it’s completely hidden within the server, no one knows about it in the roleplay

ZeratoR: Even I knew about it, so

Etoiles: Yeah, well there you go. And therefore I have a hidden team that allows me to go into buildings, kill Federation agents that take care of the Island, and—

Antoine: But why would you want to kill Federation agents, dude?

Etoiles: Well because they’re not very nice, dude

ZeratoR: (laughs) Oh the lore is incredible. Well, it’s not nice to be mean, but…

Etoiles: The thing that’s funny—

Antoine: They’re not mean…

Etoiles: —is that I see messages from people on Twitter reacting like, ‘well I think it’s insane that Etoiles is killing Federation agents,’ when I don’t want to kill them. I never want to kill them. When I kill them, it’s because I’m forced to. And the last time, I didn’t want to kill them—

Antoine: That’s a really war criminal-esque phrase, that

ZeratoR: Clearly

Etoiles: No but bro, bro, it’s the admins themselves that told me, ‘return to the base, let’s fight,’ that’s what they said, bro, so I was like, ‘well, okay’ (laughs)

Antoine: Well that…

Etoiles: It was fun, honestly. And so when I saw all the messages on Twitter like, ‘Etoiles’ character has totally lost his mind,’ I was like, well—

Antoine: What, you don’t like white teddy bears, dude? Honestly, they’re so cool

Etoiles: Then again, white teddy bears aren’t really nice, dude

Antoine: Dude they are simply what I’d call the goat, honestly. They’re what I call the goat, personally, white teddy bears are called the goat

end Video Transcript.]

#qsmp #antoine daniel #etoiles #baghera jones #étoiles #team du lundi #jay clips #antoine’s seen peoples theories and encourages them so poggers to that gg #someone mentioned ‘tumblr theories’ in the chat as he was talking about this . so .#idk if he lurks here but if he does salut antoine ton lore me régale #salut à la personne dans le tchat qui a envoyé le msg aussi mdr #be thankful for this compilation I procrastinated on my Important Uni Work for this #i will be getting back to that . now #11/12/2023

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cappymightwrite · 4 years

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ASOIAF & Norse Mythology

PART 1: Introduction

Laying Out the Groundwork...

I’ve been interested in all things Norse/Vikings for a long time now, so when I first read George RR Martin’s ASOIAF series I was struck by, as I think many people have been, the quite obvious parallels to Norse mythology and Viking Age culture. I’ve read a few other Norse themed metas here and there, but I thought I might have a go at adding my own two cents since I am currently doing a masters in Viking and Medieval Norse studies at two Nordic universities...despite the hellfire that is 2020.

(Am I procrastinating my uni work by doing this meta? Yes. Do I regret it? …ask me later.)

I haven’t read every single Norse/ASOIAF meta out there, but from the ones I have read, I think there has been a bit of a tendency to argue for very direct parallels between the two. For instance, claiming one ASOIAF character as an explicit parallel for a particular Norse mythological figure, or using certain mythic events, and how they are described within their medieval sources, as an exact blueprint for how things are going to play out in the books.

(Let’s all just pretend the show and its ending didn’t happen. Ok, good? Good.)

I completely understand the urge to take this approach, it is a very tempting, fun thing to do. However, I think it maybe conveniently sets aside some unfortunate home truths that rather harm this kind of reading:

[November 27, 1998, on the topic of the Wars of the Roses]

The Wars of the Roses have always fascinated me, and certainly did influence A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, but there's really no one-for-one character-for-character correspondence. I like to use history to flavour my fantasy, to add texture and verisimilitude, but simply rewriting history with the names changed has no appeal for me. I prefer to reimagine it all, and take it in new and unexpected directions.

[February 29, 2000, on the topic of historical influences for Dorne]

I read a lot of history, and mine it for good stuff, but I also like to mix and match. That is to say, I don’t do straight one-for-one transplants, as some authors do, so you can’t really say that X in Westeros equals Y in real life. More often X in Westeros equals Y and Z in real life, with squidges of Q, L, and A.

[June 20, 2001 on the topic of whether GRRM borrows from history for the character of Loras Tyrell]

Well, yes and no. I have drawn on a great many influences for these books. I do use incidents from history, yes, although I try not to do a straight one-for-one transposition of fact into fiction. I prefer to mix and match, and to add in some imaginative elements as well.

These are just a few examples I’ve pulled out, and granted he’s talking about historical sources in all three instances here, but nevertheless I think the same thing applies to mythological sources as well: GRRM does not do ‘straight one-for-one transplants.’ Bearing this in mind, I would be very hesitant to say that Robert Baratheon equals Þórr (Thor), for example. That kind of shoehorning is not what I’m interested in with this particular meta. Instead, I want to look at how the ways in which the Norsemen’s mythological worldview might have influenced GRRM’s writing, and more specifically what we’ll eventually be facing in The Winds of Winter.

An Argument for Norse Influence…

A lot of the time when people discuss Norse parallels in ASOIAF the assumption that GRRM has read and is explicitly drawing on Norse mythology is taken as a given. The parallels seem so obvious that we don’t take a moment to consider the validity of that assumption before ploughing straight ahead with various comparisons and theories. So, before I really begin, I think it’s important to actually give some evidence as to why I agree that GRRM has read certain Norse mythological texts and is therefore consciously using them in his writing.

For starters, just trawling through some of the fan questions he’s answered in the past (NB: I was planning to go through all of them, but…there’s just so many), GRRM does make a few references to Norse myths/Vikings, e.g.:

[June 11, 1999, on the topic of Ravens as messenger birds]

[…] I also liked the mythic resonances. Odin used ravens as his messengers, and they were also thought be able to fly between the worlds of the living and the dead.

[April 23, 2001, on the topic of Wildlings in the north]

Raiding is definitely a part of wildling culture, as it was for many in the real world -- the Norse who went a-viking every summer, the ancient Celtic cattle raiders, the Scots border reivers, etc.

So, from just these two examples it is clear to us that GRRM has some degree of knowledge regarding Norse mythology and Viking Age culture. You could argue that this is just a basic kind of knowledge, which isn’t illustrative of any deeper understanding or interest. However, I think the first quote proves otherwise.

Apart from Þórr, Óðinn (Odin) is probably the most well known out the Norse gods to a non-medievalist audience; though thanks to Marvel comics/films, Loki is quite (in)famous as well. Quite a lot of people might know that Óðinn is associated with ravens, two in particular: Huginn and Muninn, whose names translate from Old Norse-Icelandic to ‘Thought’ and ‘Mind’ or ‘Memory,’ respectively. But their function, or role in connection to Óðinn, might require a bit of a deeper read and understanding.

Indeed, in the quote above GRRM notes that they are Óðinn´s ‘messengers,’ which is a detail that occurs in several Old Norse sources, namely in chapter 38 of the Gylfaginning section of Snorri Sturluson’s Prose Edda (c. 1220), as well as in the Eddic poem Grímnismál, a work that is included in the Codex Regius (compiled 13th cent., containing 31 poems), the principal manuscript of the Poetic Edda:

‘Two ravens sit on Óðinn’s shoulders, and into his ears they tell all the news they see or hear. Their names are Huginn [Thought] and Muninn [Mind, Memory]. At sunrise he sends them off to fly throughout the whole world, and they return in time for the first meal. Thus he gathers knowledge about many things that are happening, and so people call him the raven god. As is said:

Huginn and Muninn

fly each day

over the wide world.

I fear for Huginn

that he may not return,

though I worry more for Muninn.’

(The Lay of Grimnir, 20)

In fact, as seen above, Snorri uses Grímnismál as a source to back up his own claims within the Gylfaginning.*

NB: In Old Norse, Gylfaginning translates to ‘the beguiling’ or ‘deluding of Gylfi.’ It is the first part of Snorri’s Prose Edda, and is structured as a question-and-answer conversation between Gylfi — a king of ‘the land that men now call Sweden,’ though there’s no historical record of him — under the guise of the name Gangleri, and three enthroned men: High, Just-As-High and Third. In chapter 20 of Gylfaginning it is revealed that these are in fact pseudonyms for Óðinn.

Elsewhere, we see reference to Huginn and Muninn as messengers in Snorri’s other work, Heimskringla (c. 1230), a collection of several sagas about Swedish and Norwegian kings. In chapter 7 of Ynglinga saga, Snorri writes that:

[Óðinn] had two ravens which he had trained to speak. They flew over distant countries and told him much news. From these things he became extremely wise.

So, we can see that this detail about Huginn and Muninn as messenger birds is well established in several Old Norse sources, and is therefore likely to be included in any general guide or overview to Norse mythology. GRRM could have left it at that and all would be fine and dandy. But he doesn’t. He adds that ‘they were also thought be able to fly between the worlds of the living and the dead.’ For me, this is an interesting inclusion, because as you can see from the quotes above, though they are said to travel ‘over the wide world’ and ‘over distant countries,’ it isn’t explicitly stated in the Prose Edda, Poetic Edda or Heimskringla that they fly between the realms of the living and the dead.

The closest thing I can find that fits in with what GRRM is saying here is a fragmentary verse from the Third Grammatical Treatise, a text composed around the middle of the 13th century by Óláfr Þórðarson, a nephew of Snorri Sturluson (and he seems to have been influenced by his uncle’s works). The second part of this text contains examples of Old Norse-Icelandic skaldic poetry — this is where we find our reference to Huginn and Muninn:

Two ravens flew from Hnikar’s [Óðinn’s]

shoulders; Huginn to the hanged and

Muninn to the slain [lit. corpses].

[TGT]

According to this verse, from Óðinn’s shoulders, the two ravens fly to the ‘hanged’ and the ‘slain,’ so their association with death is pretty clear. The problem, however, with saying that they ‘fly between the worlds of the living and the dead,’ is which worlds? Does he mean from Miðgarðr (Midgard) to Valhöll* ´the hall of the slain’? Or to Fólkvangr ‘field of the host’? Or from Ásgarðr (Asgard) to Hel? I know what he means, I’m just being pedantic.

NB: Valhalla is a modernised version of the Old Norse-Icelandic Valhöll — in modern Icelandic, the ‘LL’ in Valhöll is pronounced sort of like ‘TL.’ So, for instance, the new Assassin’s Creed game…the Norsemen/Vikings, as well as later medieval sources, wouldn’t have referred to it as Valhalla, they would have called it Valhöll.

But back to the Third Grammatical Treatise — it should be noted that, according to Tarrin Wills, ‘of the poetic examples, a large amount of material is not found elsewhere and a large proportion of that is anonymous.’ Furthermore, the above fragment in particular ‘belongs to no known poem’ (Wills), which is probably why we don’t find this kind of detail about Huginn and Muninn elsewhere in other, better known mythic sources, such as the Prose Edda.

What I’m trying to get at here is that, in my mind, for GRRM to make the claim that Óðinn’s ravens were ‘thought be able to fly between the worlds of the living and the dead’ he’d have to have more than just a basic interest in Norse mythology, because not all guides/overviews/introductions to the Norse myths include or reference this obscure, fragmentary verse. I mean, I don’t particularly remember it coming up in my Old Nordic Religion and Belief module I did last year, so that’s why it stands out to me.

Ok, so GRRM has definitely read up on Norse mythology. Great, point proved! Ah��but then there’s this:

[January 20, 1999]

[Summary from Kay-Arne Hansen: I asked him if he had read 'Norwegian Kingssagas' by Snorre Sturlasson, and explained that I thought so on the basis of Sansa's story about Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk seeming to be the equivalent of the brother kings Alrik and Eirik, and went on to make suggestions about other possible 'inspirators' from the 'Kingssagas'.]

Ah... well... a fascinating theory, but...

I did take a semester of Scandinavian history back my sophomore year in college, which was.... hmmmm... around about 1967-8. I read a couple of Icelandic sagas during the course, and found them thoroughly compelling, but after the passage of thirty years I confess I no longer recall the titles or the names of any of the characters. It may be that chunks of them, buried in my subconscious, somehow surfaced during A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE... but it seems a long shot.

Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk were inspired by the twin knights of Arthurian myth, Sir Balon and Sir Balin, who appear in Mallory.

Sorry.

Nice try, though.

I came across this Q/A on reddit and the response was quite a few redditors feeling a tad despondent. They seemed to understand GRRM’s answer to mean that any reference/allusion to Norse mythology in his texts were just memories of a long ago Scandinavian history course ‘buried in [his] subconscious’ that ‘somehow surfaced’ during the writing process, so weren’t intentional, conscious inclusions. Even then, GRRM considers this hypothesis ‘a long shot.’

However, I wouldn’t necessary give up all hope, because the texts being referred to here are Snorri Sturluson’s Heimskringla, which we looked at above, and most likely the Íslendingasögur (aka the Sagas of Icelanders), referred to by GRRM as ‘a couple of Icelandic sagas’ he read in college.

Heimskringla does include mythological content, but as I’ve already mentioned, it’s primarily a history of Norwegian and Swedish kings — though it should be noted that GRRM doesn’t outright say he hasn’t read Heimskringla. As for the text(s) he does mention, in Egils saga for instance, there is reference to pre-Christian religion, but again, I wouldn’t look to the Íslendingasögur as a go-to source for Norse myths.

Granted, the question being asked is about historical sources and inspirations, I still think it’s telling that GRRM doesn’t mention having read the Prose Edda or Poetic Edda here. Because those are the two key textual sources that we look to for the Norse myths, and even though they were written/compiled well after the conversion to Christianity, they still arguably preserve aspects and memories of what went before. So, I really doubt he wouldn’t have come across them on that Scandinavian History course — the gradual conversion to Christianity in Scandinavia and Iceland is a pretty important period in their cultural history. Going further, I think that these are texts he’s returned to time and time again...in particular the sections that refer to the ‘Twilight of the Gods,’ aka Ragnarök.

References/Bibliography:

Snorri Sturluson, Heimskringla I: The Beginnings to Óláfr Tryggvason, trans. by Alison Finlay & Anthony Faulkes, (London: Viking Society for Northern Research, 2011)

Snorri Sturluson, The Prose Edda, trans. and intr. by Jesse Byock, (London: Penguin Classics, 2005)

Tarrin Wills, “The Anonymous Verse in the Third Grammatical Treatise,” in The Fantastic in Old Norse/Icelandic Literature, Sagas, and the British Isles: Preprint Papers of The 13th International Saga Conference Durham and York, 6–12 August 2006, ed. by John McKinnell, David Ashurst & Donata Kick, (Durham: The Centre for Medieval and Renaissance Studies, 2006)

END OF PART 1...

With that out of the way, parts 2 and 3 will be on:

The ‘Long Night’ and the Fimbulvetr

Ragnarök and the ‘Red Comet’

I’ve also go some other potential parts in the works, but let me know what you thought of this, if I should continue, or if I should just shut up, lol. I promise the next sections will be dealing with the really interesting stuff, I just wanted to strengthen my forthcoming arguments with this intro first :D

Cappy x

#asoiaf #norse mythology #game of thrones #asoiaf and norse mythology #asoiaf meta #got meta #grrm #me being a nerd and generally procrastinating uni work

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