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izzyovercoffee · 7 years

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Out of curiousity, what's fandom been using as mando'a for 'clone?' I either don't see the part of fandom that picked a word to run with or I saw it and expunged it from memory for the reasons you mention.

sorry @katarnarmor I didn’t see this earlier, I always forget to check messages when I’m mobile B(((

Also, a lot of these determinations / unpacking came through conversation with @cassiansfuzzyjacket, so I’d like to give credit over to Gena as well. She’s wonderful and I love her.

Okay, so. The offending word in question is “ ara'gotenir ” from arasuum and gotenir. Yikes. Time to explain why we should not use it.

EDIT :: alternative word to use instead? eyayad. explanation here

( Also, I understand that originally the word was meant as a verb and not noun, but nouns within mando’a are constructed from their verb equivalent. So. Keep that in mind. Also, the supposition that the {also fandom constructed} word for twin ara’vod is equal. it is not, and still a poor/offensive choice, with even heavier negative ties to Arasuum due to the use of vod. anyway. )

This got really long after all, so if you don’t want the lengthy explanation, here’s the bullet points:

if ara’gotenir is used, it can only be done so in a derogatory way, as a specifically structured slur against clones, reasons following:

arasuum — stagnant, remain the same, unchanging

scientifically incorrect, clones are not exact copies

extreme negative connotations within mando’a / mando culture

negative connotations out of universe

arasuum, the word itself, has a very specific cultural context and it is a negative one — just outside of the already negative connotations the idea of stagnation and unchanging already carries

gotenir — birth, give birth

as a verb construction, as in the act to clone, then I can kind of understand it, as a very literal translation across language lines

but even so it still doesn’t apply, because the clones are not birthed, and if anything … combined with the above reasons of why arasuum is not a good word to use …

can only be interpreted negatively, as a sort of offensive irony or sarcasm

thus, ara’gotenir

is offensive, and/or

literally translates to stillbirth

so don’t use it in the context of clones and cloning =/

I’m all for world-building, and I can see some mandalorians pushing forward the idea that the clone men are not “real people,” but the thing is … I believe this was entirely unintentional. Also I can’t really throw myself behind a word that ultimately would only make the most sense when used to demean their humanity in very … very specific ways that are devastating within mandalorian understanding and language =/

I also cannot endorse creating nor using slurs for an entire body of non-white men in order to dehumanize them further than the source material, and fandom in general, already does. It does not matter that it’s fiction.

EDIT :: as pointed out by @silenthouse

aragotenir, literally translated, means stillbirth

Which only lends an even worse connotation on top of the given meaning.

Though ara has multiple meanings that can be derived, it was specifically chosen from arasuum — stagnant, remain the same. This is wrong for a variety of reasons, but I’ll try to keep this short (lmao yeah right, me? keep anything short? anyway I failed so here comes a cut) and stick to the main ones.

the science though

Starting with the literal meaning: stagnant implies that all clones are exactly the same. Here’s the thing people either don’t know, don’t understand, or don’t look up … clones are NOT EXACT copies of each other, and a simple google search of cloning myths would reveal that.

For this word to be created by Mandalorians who trained them … well. It is, at best, unkind in the way that willful ignorance is unkind.

Okay. Mando’a is a spoken language. But words lose their meaning, or new words spring up as a result of new information or out of need for a word that’s appropriate for the situation. Anyone who’s trained the clones can see that they are not exactly the same, even without the science behind it. But I digress.

the connotations of stagnation (general)

My main concern is that the word stagnant has a severely negative connotation within mandalorian culture, not even beginning to address that arasuum has specific negative connotations tied to the word itself. Then you also have the understanding that it is negative in english … It has not and will not be a word that can be taken with any neutrality in any context, full stop.

culturally speaking

At the very core of mandalorian belief systems lies the implied, if not spelled out, need for the people to be open to change, and to eternally combat stagnation. This is literally a thing, and it runs as an undercurrent in all materials, from Pacifist to Extremist and everything in between.

Mandalorians, at their core, are about struggling. Embracing the struggle, in every meaning and iteration that that can be interpreted. Struggling to survive the day, struggling against the rise of an Empire, struggling against a cultural genocide. To be mandalorian is to struggle against stagnation, against a status quo that threatens life, but also fully embrace the fight in whatever manner that means.

So, the logic follows then that people with stagnation in their name already carry the stigma against them — that somehow, in their very existence, they are already the embodiment of stagnation. Something which they cannot control, and also cannot escape. (yikes, sounds familiar, doesn’t it?)

Consider further that mandalorians are often “very easily” mistaken for one another in a way that specifically reads as a homogenization, or blanket descriptor, that is used to stigmatize them. Follow, then, the train of thought that culturally speaking it’s not a good choice.

Mandalorians may know and use that “being confused for another” as a tactical advantage, but there is a very real awareness that this is not a positive stigmatization (tbh there’s no such thing as a positive stigma or stereotype, but that’s besides the point).

Arasuum in mandalorian culture

I touched on this above, but let’s get to the actual cultural understanding:

Arasuum was a deity in the ancient Mandalorian religion. Known as the sloth-god, the Mandalorians viewed Arasuum as the personification of stagnation, who tempted the ancient clans to engage in idle consumption. Opposing Arasuum was the god Kad Ha'rangir, who embodied the universal opportunity for change and growth that destruction created. Mandalorian mythology held that Arasuum and Kad Ha'rangir waged an eternal war against one another.

The Mandalorians who believed in these ancient gods waged ritual warfare as a means of worship toward Kad Ha'rangir, whose ideals they served, taking on the name Mandalorian Crusaders as a reflection of the holiness embodied by the conflict they engaged in. By fighting wars in the destroyer god’s name, the Mandalorians sought to earn Kad Ha'rangir’s favor, and defied the temptations of Arasuum.

— the wookia (sources in the actual article itself)

So, not only do we have the cultural issues that follow the meaning of stagnation, but we now also have all the complicated spiritual implications that follow a sloth-god.

It’s irrelevant if mandalorians as a whole no longer practice certain types of religions for the reason that these religions were central in the construction and influence on mandalorian culture, from the onset. Though deities and worship have been lost to time, we can still easily see the worship and veneration of The Fight, even in the pacifists (who, frankly, actively resist and fight for the way of being, and fight for their position in the known galaxy, despite being “pacifists.” regardless of one’s opinions on them, that much is true).

So to repeat myself … people with stagnation in their name already carry the stigma against them — that somehow, in their very existence, they are already the embodiment of stagnation, and now, they’ve become the actualized manifestations of what mandalorians, at their core, are meant to resist and struggle against.

Yikes, lmao.

That said, let’s move on to the next part of the construction:

why gotenir does not make sense

Gotenir, literally translated, means birth or to “give birth.”

The clones, the ones mandalorians would be most familiar with, were not born. They were decanted. This is a very serious distinction, for a number of reasons, but let’s break it down again:

literally and metaphorically speaking

Across different media, one can find different … ah, “memories,” let’s say, of clones floating in a tube. Whether that applies to their memories of development, or things that followed their decant, I have never seen such recollections as anything more than clinically neutral.

Not once, except perhaps in sarcasm or irony, have they been described as “born.” I could have missed a moment of course, but honestly … how they were created =/= live birth. Birth is also not a good metaphor for creation.

and its actual literal translation

Stillbirth.

I shouldn’t have to spell out why this is messed up when used to refer to clones and cloning.

the negative associations when tied with Arasuum

The irony of using birth for a man who was not birthed, tied with the use of a literal manifestation of the worst possible temptation tied within the belief system, leads to the conclusion that aragotenir, and aragoten, are both inherently derisive.

You really … cannot get around it.

To say that these cloned men, specifically, were birthed … cannot be more than bitter irony, or sarcasm. There’s really no way to get around those connotations, whether that was the intent or not.

And then to tie them directly to Arasuum, the Sloth God …

Look. Here’s the thing.

This word, I’m sure, was not intended to be constructed within fandom as a slur. And, I’m sure, that there are mandalorians out there (particularly Death Watch, but others too) who do not view clones as fully human. The other day, I got involved in a disagreement in which the core argument was that clones are subhuman, and this was a purely out of universe discussion.

Within the source material, there are countless instances and events recorded of the common citizen deriding the clone army and expressing that they don’t recognize their humanity. Dehumanization in-context and out-of-context is a very real thing associated with the clones of The Clone Wars within Star Wars universe, across Legends, EU, and Canon.

As I said in the TL;DR, I cannot condone the use of this word. It does not matter that this is fiction — the clones are a huge body of non-white men, and further dehumanization is unacceptable. Fandom already has difficulty seeing them as people, separate from each other, different from each other. Fandom doesn’t even understand that no two clones are exactly the same (please for the love of the stars won’t people google cloning myths already).

We don’t need another way to deride them, as the word clone has already become, has already been used, for that specific purpose.

Also, we do have another word that just as easily, poetically, and inoffensively, works for clone. But that comes in a separate post, for two reasons: the first being that this one is already too long, and the second being that I want to really get into the why and the how of that word without the weight of this one.

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crab-instruments · 3 years

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Dust in the Wind Part 8 (tbb)

Master <Part 7 Part 9>

Pairing: Hunter x Secret Jedi! Reader (GN)

Rating and warning: General audience, panic/stress (minimal)

Words: 1.5k

a/n: haha well we don't have time to unpack all that finale, so here's an update of this instead. Fresh off the press and yeeted to tumblr. I'm thinking the next update will have some cool stuff. I hope.

Image credit in the notes

When your eyes opened, you laid there for a bit, taking in the events of yesterday and what some sleep had done to clear the mind. You must have slept well, not even remembering the dreams you had or stirring when others got up, as only Hunter and you were left in the bunks. This was based on assumption by reaching out using the Force, at least, as you hadn’t moved an inch yet.

Being with the Batch had made it easy to settle back into your ‘old life’ or maybe just who you really were, a force user. You were becoming more comfortable, but if you were being honest with yourself, that was a scary thought. It would make leaving so much harder.

You slowly started to move, careful to keep quiet, putting your feet on the cold metal floor. The ship buzzed and hummed through your feet, accentuating the dull pain in your muscles, but the pain had an odd nostalgic feel, something you would be used to after a mission.

Echo, Crosshair, and Wrecker were all out in the main cabin as you approached, all still sleepy, though the sniper was better at hiding it.

Echo handed you a cup and you presumed he said something along the lines of ‘mornin’ but your brain was still fuzzy, not used to the amount of sleep you got. You looked at the contents of the cup; caf that had a stale smell to it and enough water to have your reflection look back at you. Still, you drank it all in one go and then turned to back to the Clone who gave it to you. “Thank you, that was the worst caf I’ve ever had, and I’ve never been more grateful for it.”

Echo chuckled; a small smirk spread across his face. “I see you slept well. Surprised to see Sarg still in bed.” You cocked your head, not sure what he was getting at.

“He is usually up first, not able to sleep when people start waking up,” Wrecker filled in.

“It might have something to do with having more people sleeping comfortably,” Tech had walked from the cockpit. “He has said that when there’s more resting heartbeats around him, he is calmer. He was worried about Maxis so possibly having them closer helped him relax.” Tech had kept his voice even when speaking, but it still felt like there was a hint of something.

“What are you—”

“I came back here to let you know we will be landing soon, and someone should wake Hunter.” He turned around before you could address what you wanted.

Echo had grabbed another cup of caf and handed it out for you to take. “Maxis, would you mind? I have a few other things to do and you’re closer.” You squinted your eyes in skepticism at the Clone for a moment, before taking the cup and walking back to the bunks, making a mental note to corner those two and figure out what they were scheming.

Once you crossed the threshold of the room, you slowed down in front of where Hunter was laying. He had fallen asleep on his stomach, his arms under his pillow, and his face turned away from the wall. No bandana in his hair, you could see how thick his locks are, almost a little envious. Really, it suited him, and he knew it. You lowered yourself to the floor, taking a moment to just study his sleeping face. So calm and handsome, in this state you couldn’t see how much the war had taken its toll on him. It was something you could get used to—

“Mesh’la, staring is impolite.” You would never… ever… admit what his sleepy morning voice did to you in that moment. His voice startled you, sloshing some caf onto the floor. He hadn’t yet opened his eyes when he addressed you, but they stared straight through you now.

Say something! “Um… sorry, I didn’t mean… We just… We’re going to be landing soon.” Smooth, about as smooth as this caf.

Hunter chuckled, amused at the effect he had on you in that moment. Slowly he sat up, swinging his legs carefully over the side of the bunk. You had stood up and took a step back to give him space but were still more or less frozen.

“Is… one of those cups for me? Or do you just really enjoy the dirt caf…”

“Oh, right.” You held out the cup, certainly not loving every second he touched your hand. Holy kriff, you needed to get a grip on your life, or you were going to lose your mind. “Uhm, I’ll just…” you looked back to the doorway but then back at him. “Wait, mesh’la?”

A look of surprise took over Hunter’s face for a hot second before a smile took its place. He shook his head, and responded, “It’s Mando’a, I’ll have to teach you some day.” He stood up and walked past you to the main cabin, obviously still avoiding giving a real answer.

“But that doesn’t… what does it mean?” Hunter had already weaved his way through the ship, leaving you wondering. Maybe I’ll ask Tech about the best way to learn a new language.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Under the ship, you checked and cleaned the landing gear. It had seen better days and probably hadn’t even been washed since the Republic. You worked meticulously, finally able to show more of what you could do now that you didn’t have the possibility of needing a quick escape. The soreness that swam through your muscles sang loudly while you focused, it was clear you needed a break.

Two shadows, one much larger than the other, closed in on the area. Omega didn’t need to crouch all that much as she approached, Wrecker waiting by the side of the ship. “Hey Maxis, you should take a break. Wrecker and I were about to go get our Mantell Mix. It’s a tradition, we get some after every mission.”

You stopped working for a moment. “I didn’t really… I wasn’t a part of the mission. But—”

“You protected the ship from four troopers, I’d say that’s enough to get some Mix.” Wrecker said, with a bit of pride.

“Ah yeah, I guess. Let me put this piece back on and we can go.”

Crawling out from the ship, you wiped the dirt of your pants. Something about Ord Mantell always stuck to you though, but that was a part of its charm. Or that’s what you say to convince yourself. You had explored the market a bit, to pick up supplies and replacements for maintenance, but never really experienced it.

As Omega led the way, you asked, “what exactly is Mantell Mix?”

“Only the best treat in the entire galaxy,” Omega looked back at you, very excited.

“Well, when you mostly have rations, anything would be a treat. Very low bar. I think I’m more concerned about the name, Mantell Mix. A mix of what? Grime and overpriced goods?”

“I think adventure and a hint of sweetness is more like it.”

You chuckled. “Always good at the positive spin, Omega. That’s a good quality.” She beamed.

Once the food was acquired, you could only eat so much of it before deciding that Omega had lied about the ‘hint of sweetness’. But you did your best to show gratitude in being included.

The three of you decided to wander around the open-air shops. You ended up looking at some unrefined gems on display. Not something you would usually stop to look at, but something about the display caught your attention. A crystal, somewhat clear but had a red hue, stuck out.

“See something you like?”

“What… is this?” You pointed to the crystal. “And where did you get it?”

“Ahh, I’m not sure. I travel and trade quite a bit, unfortunately, and don’t remember much about every piece. But if it is to your liking, you should have a closer look.” The owner had a creepy facial expression, you were unsure if they were trying to just sell the item or if they had other motives. But what other motives could they have?

You reached for the crystal but could only hold it for a second due to the extreme pain and pressure you felt from it. Another force echo. Luckily, you pushed yourself out of it quick, only getting a brief glimpse of the horrible feeling, but it stuck to you, sitting heavy on your shoulders. A reminder of the past.

It was a kyber crystal, a synthetic one specifically. This one had been used by a Sith or an apprentice of one, having such a dark and evil aura around the force echo. It made you sick and scared. Suddenly, it felt like all eyes were on you, walls closing in. Fear crept into your mind.

“I’m s-sorry, I have to-… to go.” You swiftly made your way back to the Marauder, leaving Omega and Wrecker behind. The corner you hid in after your fight with the troopers felt like the perfect fit for you at that moment. You curled up in a ball as tightly as you could and hummed to yourself.

It took a while, but everyone made their way back and Hunter was discussing about their next mission that would take place in a few rotations.

Part 9

________________________________________________________________

Notes:

Mando'a: I assume if you're reading this, you know, but here's a link anyway.

Synthetic Lightsaber/Kyber crystal: One of my favorite things I learned about lightsabers is that the Sith used synthetic crystals and synthetic crystals are normally red, leading to the Sith having mostly red lightsabers. I don't know if that's still considered canon anymore, but for me it is. Image credit

Tag List: @rintheemolion @xxspqcebunsxx @salamidraws @lokigirlszendaya

If you want to be added to the tag list, just ask in the most convenient way for you or by faxing me a picture of a crab

#tbb x reader #tbb x you #the bad batch x reader #bad batch x reader #hunter x reader #hunter x you #dust in the wind #crab fics

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izzyovercoffee · 7 years

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Hello there, I feel you're the best person to ask about this. If someone was learning Mando'a, but didn't have any experience in learning languages, what should they learn first? I'm aware Mando'a is missing a lot of basic words, so would that be an issue?

aww thank you, that’s very sweet of you to say !!

actually, before I get into it since I don’t want to take all credit, I just want to recommend also speaking w/ @jacensolodjo as we’re both fairly conversational in mando’a. @cassiansfuzzyjacket regularly releases mando’a vocabulary once a week in addition to general mando posts. @thesummerstorms also works on developing mando’a and missing words with the above and myself. There’s also general mandalorian reconstructionists around tumblr (@suspendnodisbelief being one of the people who posted really interesting development wrt mando’a and mandalorians in the past, and I think still does? EDIT:: also @reconfemmandoforares ). I am definitely missing people, but these are the ones I’m most/easily familiar with so we can start there. I’ll make a post eventually.

I also peruse the mando’a and mandalorian tags/searches often.

Also generally I would be careful w/ mandalorian reconstructionists bc a few in the larger community perpetuate toxic beliefs (toxic masculinity being one of the most common along w/ sexism, but also ableism, racism, and specifically catholic interpretation of mandalorians) that don’t actually … exist. That’s a discussion for another day, but the general conlang mando’a resources are worth checking out if you can find them, keeping the aforementioned in mind.

There’s also the MandoMercs forums, and I would caution exactly the same as the above when entering the community.

Okay. So. That said, I won’t beat around the bush here: learning mando’a can be difficult because, like you said, the language is missing quite a few basic words. Learning mando’a will, at least in the beginning, require maybe having easy access to a mando’a dictionary and creative use of words.

Things you might need to remember:

The rules for mando’a are more like … guidelines … and sometimes to get the point across you need to play fast and loose with grammar.

If you get too creative w/ word construction, some people are not gonna be able to follow you/your meaning.

This isn’t necessarily a reflection on you, however, but a downside to limited vocabulary.

Drop words that aren’t absolutely necessary (cuyir, “to be / is / are,” is a big one, te, haar “the” is another, etc)

mando’a does not recognize/utilize gender markers.

For me, personally … learning / being able to speak some french has been incredibly helpful for mando’a pronunciation and verb conjugation, but not so much on the combining words to make other words. German, on the other hand, is great for that. English is also guilty of doing this, but you know … lol.

Sentence structure often reflects English, possibly because the origins of this conlang are meant for ease of translation with a majority English-speaking audience and the people involved did not have any familiarity with nor background in linguistics (which also may explain the missing basic words).

Generally, in learning new languages, we tend to remember words that are most relevant to us / used often. But the process of learning language is kind of difficult, especially if you haven’t before — because there are different ways to learn new languages, and what works for one person might not work for another. ie. some people retain language better with writing down phrases and vocabulary repeatedly or writing/reading in the language, while some others learn better via auditory lessons and verbal recitation / jumping straight to practicing with others.

Admittedly, I am (slowly) trying to compile basic necessary words that are missing in mando’a and filling that gap, but that project is a long, long way from completion (I mean, look how long it took for us to settle on the word for boat lmao). And, bc of the nature of language in general there may always be multiple words meaning the same exact thing, and multiple ways to say the same thing.

What I mean is that there is no “right” way to speak mando’a, so long as your meaning gets across clearly, concisely, and sensibly. At its very core, mando’a is a language meant to be easy to speak and easy to understand. Try not to get bogged down in excess, and any time you can shorten and simplify a sentence do it. You can outright drop entire words, so long as context can be derived.

That aside, also remember most importantly: have fun with it.

I know, I know “that’s so corny” but l i s t e n. Mando’a is meant to be a constantly changing, evolving language. Enjoying messing around with the conlang, coming up with new words/phrases or breaking down existing ones to see the how/why, is some of the best ways to familiarize yourself with the language. And tbh don’t be afraid to message me if you want to practice, and feel free to engage with my posts. I’m always welcome to talk about mando’a and mandalorians in general, and I’m working on being more … uh, time efficient with responding now.

anyway … that was a lot longer than I intended. I hope this helps, and I hope I answered your questions. If not please let me know !! and I’ll see if I can be more clear about everything.

#Anonymous #izzy talks mando'a #meta: mando'a #meta: mandalorians #meta #asks.txt #I hope no one minds me @ them B')#mando'a #izzy talks mandalorians #mandalorians #EDITED to add another person to the top ref list

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