#miraculous writing salt

[moneeko]

When you come back to the fandom and the series after a long break

and frankly, instead of being at least a decent cartoon, the creator hates the character so much that he has to keep demonizing him.

The show has so many problems that it becomes a hobby for people with rewrites and redesigns. (I am that too, for example I love Zoe-onesama comics or The Artistic Aloubell restor- ary or Callimar rediscovering) I love and recommend it. Am I slowly the only person where the series ended in season 3, and managed to defeat Gabriel? NO . Pity.

#miraculous writing salt #miraculous salt #chloe deserves better #marientte deserve better writing #fckyougabriel #anti thomas astruc #thomas astruc salt #adriennette salt #adrien salt #ml salt

[ilikekidsshows]

Felix from Miraculous for the Smart/Trust Guy ask game :D

The Smart guy ask game

Félix has so much knowledge at his disposal and all his plans work out for him personally, but, like, what is he trying to accomplish exactly? Everything he claims to care about, Sentimonster rights and Adrien, is left on the wayside as he just fucks about. He's done more to help Gabriel, someone he hates, than the things he claims to care about. Definitely more on the dumbass smart guy side of things.

#miraculous ladybug #felix fathom #felix salt #miraculous writing salt #ask game #smart guy ask game

[sleepieweather]

MLB Opinion: Honestly, at this point, I don't even hate any of the characters in this show. Not even Gabriel, Lila, Master Fu or Marinette. I just hate the person behind all the questionable writing choices. Whoever that person is, they're the true villain of MLB, more than Gabriel or Lila could ever dream of being

#miraculous ladybug #mlb #ml #gabriel agreste #lila rossi #miraculous ladybug writing salt #miraculous writing salt #mlb writing salt #ml writing salt

[motherofplatypus]

Since the finale is just around the corner, complete with a whole mountain of salt, I wanna throw one last salt before the tsunami.

I will never find it not ironic that this line basically saying your circumstances doesn't excuse your behavior, DURING an episode excusing someone's behavior because they have some circumstances.

Anyway, I'll see you all in the finale. I hope you all stay sane after that.

#Derision is a massive salt mine #The older it gets the worse it is #but it is nothing compared to the finale #miraculous ladybug #miraculous #mlb #miraculous lb #miraculous salt #mlb salt #ml salt #miraculous ladybug salt #miraculous derision #mlb derision #derision salt #chloe salt #marinette salt #thomas astruc salt #ml writing salt #ml writers salt

[nixthelapin]

I think the writers totally missed out on using Alya and Lila as foils for both being foxes, but using the power of illusion and misdirection in very different ways.

Lila: using emotions and threats to set a trap for LB (and CN, but she’s got that personal grudge)

Vs. Alya: using her intelligence/cunning to get out of a trap (and get LB out too)

And just in general being very different people:

Lila’s entire character is that she’s a liar who will do anything to avoid the truth, while Alya is the investigative reporter who uncovers truth.

Lila as someone who hates and is out to get both Marinette and LB vs. Alya who loves and supports both

I just think they could’ve done a lot more with this, especially since they made both girls a fox character, specifically surrounding the Fox Miraculous (I know Lila never had the real one, but she did pretend to for her akumatization)- that’s not nothing!

But nah, instead Alya just becomes brain dead around Lila, believes all her lies without question (no matter how stupid or nonsensical), and doubts everything her best friend tells her when it comes to said lies. Wasted potential.

#Alya is way to smart to fall for Lila’s nonsense #heck even if I buy that she believes the stories she should’ve dropped her the second she learned LB’s identity #one of the first things Lila told Alya was that she’s bffs with LB #ml salt #miraculous #mlb #ml critical #alya #alya cesaire #rena rouge #rena furtive #Lila #lila rossi #volpina #hoaxer #fox #fox miraculous #ladybug #Marinette #marinette dupain cheng #ml writing salt #ml writing criticism

[tenebraevesper]

Ah, yes... the old excuse of ‘Félix doesn’t have good chemistry with Marinette’. As someone who has written a 26+ chapters story with the setting in the Ladybug PV Universe, I have to say that I have never encountered any problems where it was “impossible” for me to write Félix and Bridgette’s dynamics without creating bad chemistry between them.

Although, maybe it’s because I’m using a very special and very unique writing technique known as - character development.

Honestly, the more I think about Miraculous Ladybug and its characters, the more I think that the only reason they decided to make Adrien a Nice Guy is because they couldn’t bother writing some actual character development for him and instead decided to just hand him everything he wants on a silver platter. After all, isn’t it easier when your character already is super cool and super special and has just the right amount of trauma to make people sympathize with him in order to let him get away with literal murder (on multiple occasions!)?

To me, Adrien is a very one-dimensional and bland character who has no progress aside from flipping an internal switch and no life aside from obsessing over a girl. Take away his role as Cat Noir and him being Gabriel Agreste’s (the main villain) son, and there is really nothing that makes him appealing nor interesting as a character. Even if he is given an opportunity to develop as a character, he whines until the universe bends backwards to reward him without doing anything to deserve it.

It is also hilarious how they brought back Félix to be the one to actually progress the plot instead of letting either of the main characters figure out that Gabriel is Hawk Moth/Shadow Moth/Monarch, because they need to focus on unnecessary drama instead of actual story progression.

Seriously, this screams “We couldn’t bother to put effort into writing Félix, so we gave up”.

#Ten's Thoughts #Up Ladybug #ml salt #mlb salt #miraculous ladybug #miraculous ladybug pv #adrien agreste #adrien salt #felix agreste #felix graham de vanily #felix fathom #gabriel agreste #hawkmoth #monarch #MLB writing is embarrassing. #thomas astruc salt #ladybug pv

[theerurishipper]

We're in unfortunate implication nation, baby

The Season 5 finale, with the help of episodes like Chat Blanc and Ephemeral, establishes that Adrien's emotions are to be seen as inconveniences or even seen as potentially dangerous in such a way that they need to be controlled by another person. This validates Gabriel's abuse of Adrien by suggesting that he was right all along to control Adrien, lest he goes out of control by being emotional and destroys the world or something along those lines.

By all logic, the Paris special doesn't portray a true morality swap situation, just a story about the same people with the same capacity for good who have gone down the wrong path, but can be brought back to the light. Everyone who is good in our world is good in theirs, and vice versa, as evidenced by the fact that the terrorist children are going to be redeemed but Chloe is still somehow still evil. Gabriel is among those who are considered good.

The above point is further driven in by the fact that Gabriel is akumatized (I forgot the word used in the special and I'm too lazy to look it up) into Guardian Angel in the special, a phrase commonly associated with caring and protective caretakers of any kind even though his son has become a magical terrorist despite his wonderful parenting, somehow.

Gabriel is akumatized into Guardian Angel by Marinette, and considering the revelations from the Season 5 finale, this works as foreshadowing for her siding with Gabriel and essentially continuing his work of controlling his son. Gabriel is named Guardian Angel by her, and in the narrative, this implies that she validates him as a parent, metaphorically now and literally later.

Considering the lack of morality swapping, her actions in the finale and the fact that Marinette is the writers' mouthpiece, this is the writers' way of informing us of the wonderful parenting abilities of Gabriel Agreste, reinforcing the idea that Mr. Monarch is not evil, just misunderstood.

In fact, the Paris Special has Claw Noir be a murderous villain who is willing to Cataclysm his opponents in a universe where Gabriel is a good father, leading to the conclusion that Gabriel's lack of abuse and control of his son has led him down this dark path. The implication being that he needs to be abused or else he'll become a villain.

And this is supported by the fact that Gabriel akumatizes Chat Noir into an angelic version of himself, complete with the angel wings and white costume and all, showing us that Adrien on his own is prone to becoming a volatile monster and needs Gabriel to keep him line and turn him into the angel he is today.

I hate it here.

#MLB #ML Paris Special #Miraculous World #ML Salt #ML Writing Salt #ML Writers Salt #ML Leaks #ML Spoilers #ML Paris Spoilers #Meta #My meta #S5 Finale #Marinette Salt #I guess??

[alteanroyals]

not to ruin the adrienette fest but... did they really give up their miraculous without saying goodbye to Chat/Ladybug?? Like am i the only one seeing the huge problem here???????? THEY ARE PARTNERS, THEY ARE BEST FRIENDS, THEY WOULDN'T DISAPPEAR WITHOUT SAYING GOODBYE TO EACH OTHER OMG THEY ARE JUST FINE WITH IT??? NEVER SEEING THE OTHER AGAIN????? ALSO IMAGINE IF IT WAS ONLY ONE OF THEM WHO RENOUNCED THE MIRACULOUS WITH NO EXPLANATION TO THE OTHER ONE??? shut up this is awful i need a fic to cope with this

#i will write it myself if i have to #yes we still have the second part of kwami's choice #BUT LIKE???? #ISNT IT WEIRD????? #HELLO????? #US AGAINST THE WORLD?????? #ALSO PLEASE DONT TAKE THIS AS SALT #i really liked the episode but... this broke me #ml spoilers #miraculous ladybug #ml #ladybug #miraculous #mlb #chat noir #adrien agreste #marinette dupain cheng #ladynoir

[eddo-tensei]

This will never not make me laugh

In case you don't know what this is, this is all the sightings of Socqueline Wang in Season 5. Aside from her debut, she only had like two cameos before her big moment in Derision's flashback where she turned out to be this super important figure in Marinette's life...and then she just disappears from the season altogether after the flashback is over. Right after we find out how she got suspended, she just stops showing up for the rest of the season. She doesn't even appear in the present of the same episode or even cameo in the background in episodes afterwards. She's just gone. It's like after they showed her getting suspended and this epic farewell scene between her and Marinette where she rips off the Majesta speech from Alya (Because why not steal one more thing from Alya?), they just treat it as though she isn't in Paris anymore even though we saw her two episodes ago still helping her friends. All this does is serve to prove that Socqueline's entire character is just to provide tragedy for Marinette's backstory and nothing else. I can't even say this is salt for Socqueline because this feels like the writers throwing her out as soon as she apparently fulfilled her purpose in showing Marinette having a big sad because of mean old Chloe. She doesn't even appear in the background of Revolution in protest of Chloe, which you think she would considering how much she hated Chloe. It's an instance of them just creating a disposable character purely just to prove a point and instead of keeping her in the cast, they just throw her into the bin because she doesn't serve a purpose anymore. More people hate Chloe now and that's all that matters to the writers. Screw actually developing this character who's supposedly a great figure in one of our main character's lives. As far as the writers are concerned, she already fulfilled her purpose in the narrative and that's infuriating to me because of how utterly manipulative it all comes across as.

Is this irrational? Am I too upset at the treatment of what's basically a minor character in this show? You be the judge.

#miraculous ladybug #miraculous #mlb #ml writers salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #socqueline wang #ml derision #marinette dupain cheng

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

There was no Redemption or Damnation. Chloe Doesn't Actually Have an Arc at All

Does Chloe have an abandoned redemption arc?

No. Absolutely not. She also doesn't have a “damnation” arc or really any arc at all. She is a font of wasted potential for both redemption and damnation who never gets a true chance at either path. To explain what I mean, I have to first discuss the two types of redemption arcs and also how damnation arcs work. I’ll be doing this by discussing the guy who started the redemption arc trend, Zuko, and why his story doesn’t work for people like Chloe.

The Two Types of Redemption + Some Bonus Damnation

There are two general paths to redemption: redemption through a change in worldview (the easy path) and redemption through a change in self (the hard path).

Redemption through a change in worldview is what happens when you take a character who is a fundamentally good person and give them a messed up worldview, usually through their upbringing. The story will see that worldview challenged, resulting in the character changing how they view the world, but that’s about it. They don’t really have to make major changes to themselves at a fundamental level.

This is Zuko’s path. He’s born in the Fire Nation and raised to think that the Fire Nation is good. He also has a strong sense of honor and wants to do right by his people. When he’s included in a war council and told that the army leaders are going to willingly sacrifice Fire Nation troops, he stands up and says that’s wrong. This act results in him getting banished. During his banishment, he gets to see the rest of the world and learn that the Fire Nation is, in fact, NOT good. This ultimately leads to him switching sides because he has a strong sense of honor and wants to do right by his people. Who he is and how he acts never really changes.

Chloe is not like Zuko. She is a selfish, egotistical, petty, spoiled brat. For her to be redeemed, she has to accept that fundamental aspects of her character are deeply flawed. This might involve some changes to her worldview, but that’s only a tiny piece of what needs to change and I’m honestly not sure that she really has a messed up worldview. There are multiple instances where it’s clear that she knows that she’s being mean or bad and just doesn’t care.

This brings us to the topic of damnation arcs. For something to be a damnation arc, a person has to be presented with a choice between good and evil and they have to choose evil. Zuko actually has one of these. At the end of the second season of Avatar, Zuko is given the choice to join the good guys or to join his sister and be accepted back into his family.

He chooses his sister.

That’s a damnation arc because Zuko truly had a chance to change sides. The scene would play very differently if Zuko had to choose between staying in exile and joining his sister. Joining his sister would still be the wrong move, but it’s no longer damnation. It’s just doing a bad thing vs doing nothing (though it can be argued to be somewhat damning since Zuko is going against his own morals). Along similar lines, Zuko is redeemed when he chooses to abandon his family to do what’s right even though it costs him everything he wanted: his family, his girlfriend, and his home.

This is where Chloe’s “damnation” and redemption arcs fall apart. There is no point in the series where she’s actively given a choice between good and evil. She only ever makes choices between inaction and evil or inaction and good. Does that make her a good person? Hell no! But it does make the argument that she had an arc fall very flat. She never gets better, but it's hard to say that she gets worse.

Chloe’s Choices: The Good and The Bad

Chloe becomes Queen Bee without anyone saying she was fit for the role. She just finds a miraculous and uses it. The way she uses it is selfish, egotistical, and petty. In other words, it’s just Chloe being Chloe. While the actions she takes are horrible and definitely deserve punishment, they’re in character. She’s not acting worse than normal, she’s just being herself, but with superpowers. If she’d been given the miraculous and been charged to be a hero, then her actions would be damning because she would be choosing to go against her charge. But she’s not. She has no charge.

To really assess if Chloe has potential to change, you have to look at what she does when she’s given the choice to be good and this is where things get messy.

This is how Chloe’s first encounter with her miraculous ends:

Ladybug: I have to get the Miraculous back, Chloé. (in the background, Nadja's van arrives) Chloé: Give me a second chance, please! Nadja: (holding a tablet with Audrey on it) Audrey Bourgeois, tell us live how you feel about what just happened. Audrey: (on the tablet) According to me, Chloé just clearly demonstrated that there is nothing exceptional about her. Cat Noir: (puts a hand on Chloé's shoulder) I know that you did the things you did to impress your mother. Ladybug: Anyone can make mistakes, even a superhero. What matters is how you fix them. I personally made one by losing that Miraculous. Don't make the mistake of not giving it back. Act like a hero. Cat Noir: And show everyone how exceptional you can be. (Chloé hands Ladybug the Miraculous) Ladybug: Thank you. Chloé: (the duo are about to run off) Ladybug? Cat Noir? (the cameraman moves closer) I'm sorry.

Chloe doesn't fight to keep her miraculous. A few quick lines are all it takes for her to hand it over. When Ladybug gives Chloe the chance to act like a hero would, Chloe acts like a hero. The same can be said of every subsequent time when Ladybug gives Chloe the bee miraculous. Every time Chloe is called upon to be Queen Bee, she does the job to the best of her abilities and acts as a functional member of the team. She's not incompetent. She doesn't put the team in danger so that she can be in the spotlight. Heck, the very next time she gets it, Chloe willingly admits that her father’s akumatization was her fault.

Chloé: It— it was me. I hurt my daddy's feelings. Because I want to leave Paris, forever. Ladybug: Because of what happened in school? I'm sure Marinette probably didn't exactly mean what she said. Chloé: Oh, it's not just her— actually, I don't even care about her— it's because I have no reason to be here: nobody likes me; I have no friends. I'm… useless. Ladybug: (remembering what Adrien told Marinette earlier at school about Chloé) A friend once told me: nobody is useless, Chloé. Chloé: It's easy for you to say that. You're Ladybug, a superhero. You serve a purpose. Ladybug: Yes, I can fix up all the messes. You said it yourself in your documentary. Chloé: (gasps) You saw it?! Ladybug: (nods) Mm-hmm. Chloé: Oh! I'm so embarrassed. That film's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. I realize that now. Ladybug: Don't worry Chloé. You can fix your own messes, if that's what you want. You, too, can serve a purpose, but you have to want to. Chloé: (sniffles) I do want to.

When Ladybug asks Chloe to be a better person, Chloe is a better person.

This is why I say that Chloe has a perfectly functional view of the world. She knows when she’s doing something wrong and is able to do good when challenged to do so. Even on the civilian side, we see that Chloe is willing to be a little better when given the proper motivation. In Despair Bear, Adrien says he’ll end their friendship and so Chloe actively tries to save that friendship even if she hates every minute of it. Similarly, in Zombiezoo, Chloe sacrifices herself so that Ladybug can win.

Now, none of this is a redemption. It is, at best, the foundation for a redemption. We see that Chloe has the potential to be good when challenged to do so by the right person or circumstance, but she’s not trying to be better outside of those moments when she’s challenged. For her redemption to really start, she has to choose good over evil. She has to start improving when Ladybug isn’t watching or when Adrien isn’t threatening their friendship. For it to be a damnation, she has to choose evil over good.

She is never truly given that choice.

The two big scenes where Chloe gets “worse” are at the end of Queen Wasp and at the end of Hearthunter. However, in both of those scenes, no one gives her a choice to be better even though she’s primed and ready to make that choice.

Queen Wasp: When the Civilian Moment Should Have Happened

At the tail end of Queen Wasp, Marinette has the choice to go to New York with Audrey or stay in Paris. She chooses Paris, but brings Chloe with her to try and repair the relationship between mother and daughter. Here, Marinette gets to really see just how little Audrey cares for Chloe.

In a show where Chloe has a character arc, this should be the moment when she’s given a choice. She’s just spent the whole episode trying to get her mom to love her and it’s gone nowhere. Marinette, our hero, is standing right there, fully capable of saying, “You know what Chloe, your mom sucks and you don't need her validation. I know some people who already think that you're awesome. Come on, let’s get you back home and I’ll call Adrien and Sabrina to meet us there.”

Instead, this is what happens:

Marinette: I think you're wrong. A huge part of your life is here in Paris, too! (she steps aside, showing Chloé and Butler Jean) Audrey: Chlorene? Uh— Chloé? Chloé: (looks at her mother, then at Marinette in a guilty manner, then back at her mom) Why don't you love me, Mom? Audrey: But… Uh— Of course I l-l-love you. Marinette: (groans) You're also wrong about your daughter not being exceptional. In fact, Chloé is exceptionally mean. She's the worst person I've ever met. She may be more heinous, pompous and selfish than you. Compared to both of you, even a rock seems more capable of love. (Audrey and Chloé are furious with Marinette for telling mean things to them.) Chloé and Audrey: (shouting) How dare you⁈ (gasp and look surprised at each other) Marinette: See? You're both much more alike than you think. (walks off; humming)

…our hero, Ladies and Gentlemen.

I’m not saying that Chloe’s poor behavior is Marinette’s fault. Chloe’s choices are her own, but it’s hard to say, “why didn’t she change?” when even Ladybug doesn’t seem to want her to. If no one is actively encouraging Chloe whenever she does better, then it's 1000x harder for her to get better. Fake it til you make it is a huge part of self improvement. Being a better person for validation or selfish reasons often leads to meaningful change and is a legitimate way to start a self-driven redemption arc. (Go watch The Good Place if you want a prime example of this.)

Hearthunter: When the Hero Moment Should Have Happened

Hearthunter and Miracle Queen are supposedly the end of Chloe’s “damnation” arc. The moment where she makes the wrong choice and, to be clear, Chloe does the wrong thing here. Helping Hawkmoth is a bad move and she deserved to face some consequences. However, the choice to help Hawkmoth has the weirdest setup for a “damnation” arc that I’ve ever seen.

In Miraculer, we get this line from Gabriel: all I need is for [Chloe] to lose all hope in Ladybug. To become angry enough so I can akumatize her.

This is also the episode where Chloe rejects an akuma (Chloé: No, Hawk Moth! I am a superheroine! I am Queen Bee! Ladybug will come and get me when she needs me! I WILL NEVER JOIN YOU!), the episode where Lila helps manipulate Chloe into doubting Ladybug, and the episode where Ladybug tell’s Chloe that she’ll never be Queen Bee again, setting up the tension for the season final.

However, even though that tension is set, the thing that turns Chloe to the dark side is… her parents being akumatized. Not some random akuma that Chloe wants to help with. Not Hawkmoth just randomly showing up with the bee. No, we have both of Chloe's parents as the victim of the day and Ladybug actively chooses Ryuuko over Queen Bee, making Chloe the first and only hero who doesn’t get called in when a loved one is in trouble.

All of that leads to this:

Hawk Moth: Chloé Bourgeois, rejections hurt! (Chloé turns to face him) Your talents deserve to be recognized! Ladybug and Cat Noir's reign has gone on long enough. It's time for Paris to have a new queen, and the Queen Bee on my chessboard is you. Chloé: You've akumatized my parents! If I had my Miraculous I'd- Hawk Moth: (puts up his hand and interrupts) You're right, but I did it for one reason only. So that you would finally realize that Ladybug will never give you the Bee Miraculous again. I, however, always keep my promises. (shows her the Bee Miraculous in his hand) Chloé: This isn't real! How do you have it? Hawk Moth: Try it and see for yourself. You're Ladybug's greatest fan. You've helped her, you've trusted her, and what has she done for you in return? Chloé: (gets angry) Nothing! She couldn't care less about me! I'm done with her. She's irrelevant, utterly irrelevant! (reaches out to grap the Miraculous, stops) I want you to deakumatize has my parents first!

Just like with Queen Wasp, Chloe does the wrong thing. She didn’t have to take the bee. She didn't have to stay selfish, egotistical, and petty. But at the same time, this isn’t really a damning act. It's an act that makes her unsuitable to be Queen Bee again, but she wasn't going to be Queen Bee anyway. She wasn't choosing to be a villain over a hero. She was just choosing to be selfish at a time when she's been actively manipulated and when her parents are in danger.

In other words, this is just Chloe being Chloe. She’s acting the same way she did when she first got her miraculous. If no one is going to believe in her, then why should she be a better person? Why shouldn't she just stay the same? She's arguably no worse than she was in Queen Wasp, the consequences are just greater because of Hawkmoth's plan and the powers he gives her. The only real change is that she no longer idolizes Ladybug so Ladybug no longer has a chance to encourage Chloe to be a better person, but Ladybug never did that anyway, so what does it really matter?

Once again, none of this is to blame Marinette. She doesn't have to try and make her bully a better person. That's a huge ask. But with no one actively trying to make Chloe better even when she shows that she can be better when given the right motivation, it's silly to say that Chloe had a damnation arc or really any arc at all. She ended where she started and, if that's all they wanted to do with her, then they should have just left her as a one-dimensional mean girl instead of making her one of the most developed characters in this bloated mess of a show.

Personally, I would have liked to see a redemption arc because I enjoy morally grey characters and it would have been nice to have someone on the team who wasn't a kind, sweet, goody-goody (for a team with 18 freaking members, there's really no moral diversity, which is boring). It also would have stopped Chloe and Lila filling the same basic role for 3 seasons, which was stupid. (Why do you think Lila showed up so little? It's because Chloe could do almost everything she could do and do it better.) Second choice would be don't develop Chloe, leave her as a petty mean girl and give her focused screen time to Nino and Adrien. Their relationship is barely a thing and that's disappointing considering its strong setup. Cutting Lila and giving Chloe a true damnation arc would have also been far more satisfying.

#chloe burgeois #chloé bourgeois #miraculous salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #queen bee #If you read this then thanks! I mostly just wanted to stop thinking about this and writing it down got it out of my brain #I don't love Chloe but the current lineup is just so bleh and I miss having her to shake things up #ml salt #chloe deserves better #or worse #worse works too

[zoe-oneesama]

What do you think about Lila being the next villain, I know you appreciate her a lot and in your fancomic you redeemed her but the canon can be very different

I know she's supposedly getting away with some pretty intense stuff this season and will apparently up her schemes, but ultimately...I'm just not scared of her.

Like, maybe down the line, in the future if she acquired the Butterfly Miraculous somehow, THEN she'd be threatening. But the show has hammered in pretty hard that having a Miraculous as a child is a disadvantage. I get Lila is "good" at manipulating people, so she'd be decent at making akumas, but then she'd have to detransform and the akuma would be completely left on it's own. I mean, great for creating an alibi, but not great for guiding your akuma into victory. Especially when people can fight off their akumatizations now.

And really, what's she got up on Gabriel? Now that we know she's got multiple families and can go missing from THEIR lives for long stretches at a time, I guess she's the only kid who could take up for Hawkmoth, but that just kind of evens things out. If she were just a normal kid, she'd be caught pretty quickly, or would at least have many things working against her.

She's not an adult, so she can't hold her transformation after making an akuma (at least, I'm assuming that's the equivalent for the "5 minute countdown after using your power" rule for the Butterfly or Peacock), she has no lair or way to cultivate butterflies, she doesn't have the grimoire (unless she got it when she got all that info on Gabriel and Nathalie in that episode that I haven't watched). It's only because she's the biggest fraud freak in fiction that she even has a shot.

Because she is a freak, not because she can outwit everyone around her - it's because the laws of nature don't apply when she's involved. The universe warps itself so that she can come out on top, so instead of Lila coming across and a master planner, schemer, and manipulator, you can chalk up any of her wins to Complete Contrivance. You want heroes AND villains to earn their wins, not be handed them.

So while the writers will make concession after concession, contrivance after contrivance, and have no one react like an actual human being would, all in the name of making Lila as a villain a formidable foe, I just can't bring myself to care. Or even be worried.

But then, I was never impressed with Gabriel either.

#lila salt #writing salt #ml spoilers #miraculous ladybug spoilers #ml leaks #nothing named specifically but just for safety

[moneeko]

Adrienette biggest problem

Hey everyone, we all know the Miraculous series. I have many problems but what is the biggest problem? Shipping Adrienette.

And I know it's full of problems like Marinette's character, and writing problems is its but why all the problems are connected by this ship?

The creator himself tweeted that Marinette will be Canon.

Looking at the show's release production charts (while season 2 was on the air)

6 years have passed since that post! And during this time he showed how this ship and the series have problems. Instead of gradually developing their relationship from friends to love, possibly rivals to love. They didn't make Marinette a stalker who knows the whole plan (for 30 years) Adrien and Adrien realized out of the ass that he loves Marinette when he called her friend. And the rest of the characters? Marinette's entire class (not counting Lila and Chloe) has nothing else to do (or exist) to try to get them together. I understand it's a cartoon but why does everyone want them to be a couple? Why?! Do they have other problems or hobbies? Alya's character has been demoted from ladybug fan and blogger (I like to call her reporter) to matchmaker… Seriously, instead of helping or supporting your friend when you know she's a superhero you want her to be with a dude… Seriously.

Everything has been bundled for shipping… And honestly, my opinion shouldn't be together. And the creator's post should be treated as a joke (red herring). And when Luka and Kagami were introduced, I hoped that our characters would develop emotionally with their halves (these were the days when Chloe was believed to have a redemption bow)

Personally, I hate ships/Idol x fan relationships and that's why I didn't like Adrienette and Ladrien. And watching their relationship and dynamic become meh with every season. Despite the square of love, I definitely love Marichat and Ladychat where there is no full moon with champagne (let's remember the juice of May after 14 years..) with rose flowers. Not small interactions, conversations, support, etc love it! However, it won't pass. because of how these ships have been treated since Season 4 and especially Season 5… Especially Ladychat where she became Adrienette… why.

Coming back, I think Lukanette and Adrigami would make more sense than Adrienette. Their dynamic has become so enjoyable to watch and it's more realistic that I'm looking for people who are like us/interests.

However, how they were treated in one episode since they officially became a couple and broke up. And the new york special episode, despite Adrien's official relationship with Kagami at that time, and Marinette with Luka, the creators, and characters tried to make Adrien and Marinette become a couple. And I have one word

And honestly how do you take this ship seriously when they force you too much?

#miraculous writing salt #marientte dupain cheng #adrien agreste #adrien salt #miraculous salt #marinette salt #adriennette salt #anti miraculous ladybug #anti adrinette

[ilikekidsshows]

The Totally Spies-ification of Adrien

Okay, it's been long enough that I can actually discuss how Adrien's slavery is depicted in the show without anger-fueled exaggerations and hyperbole. I want to discuss how Miraculous treats Adrien's slavery very flippantly and how it is, like everything in this show post-retool, all about Marinette. The show has a lot of stuff that hints that the writers intend for Adrien to be viewed a very certain way. I believe the writers made Adrien a slave for Marinette’s benefit and I will explain how I came to this conclusion.

I’ve joked before about how Astruc has worked on Totally Spies, “one of the kinkiest cartoons ever made”. I’d like to tackle this idea and how it relates to Miraculous more seriously. I’d like to tackle the topic of titillation and how it relates to how this show approaches slavery with such flippancy. My claim is that Adrien being a slave is not meant to be horrifying, which is why the story doesn't treat it as such; it's meant to be titillating.

I usually don't use Read Mores, since they can lead to broken links later, but this is really long. Strap in, folks.

Titillation for the context of this analysis means “content with the intention to excite romantically or sexually”, basically it’s about “kinky” stuff. The purpose of talking about sexuality in relation to Miraculous is not to paint the writers as some kind of fiends, but to present the fact that many teenagers are curious about romance and sex and will think about sex unprompted. This means titillating content in cartoons doesn’t even need to be related to sex to be titillating. And Astruc has a history of putting titillating stuff in his work, with Totally Spies being a very notable example of how you can include non-sexual titillating content in a kids’ show.

It all comes down to expected audience reactions. Adrien is meant to be sexy. I don’t mean that in a “the writers think this is sexy” way, but a “the writers think the projected audience of straight teenage girls will think this is sexy” way. He gets put into bondage three times in ‘Copycat’, ‘Anti-Bug’ and ‘Reverser’ and all three times the camera seems to like to show him off. He is meant to be an object of attraction for the audience. The people criticizing this show have been pointing out how Ladybug's costume accentuates her butt for years, but this is not something that occurs with just Ladybug. When he isn't posing for the viewers, Cat Noir gets whacked around by Akuma’s a lot, but a lot of the time it ends with him in a prone position that is also titillating, in ‘Pixelator’ it goes as far as having his butt jut out. However, the idea that Cat Noir is the one who gets hit when an Akuma needs to show off how dangerous they are is also part of the power dynamic where Marinette or Ladybug gets to show off, so it’s not purely for titillation, which is why other examples, like ‘Stormy Weather’ are more comedic.

It’s likely that Adrien-as-Adrien doesn’t get to participate in the show’s slapstick much, since that aspect of the character is presented as the perfect beauty, a role usually reserved for female characters who only ever get a little bit flustered or banged up to make sure they keep looking attractive. Marinette screams "waack" and runs face first into a wall in the same episode where the silliest thing Adrien gets to do is sneeze (Mr Pigeon). Adrien is meant to be attractive, sexy, titillating, in different ways in his different forms. As Cat Noir he is more active and more sexy, as Adrien he’s more passive and pretty, much like how female love interests can fall into these categories. It’s the Betty and Veronica dichotomy; in the Archie franchise Betty and Veronica are shown as the wholesome and sexy romance options and the reason the writers go out of their way not to resolve the love triangle is to keep the appeal of these both options going. People’s tastes differ, so it would alienate some audiences to pick one over the other. With Miraculous they solved the problem by having the two romance options be the different identities of a single character.

Frankly, as of the season five finale, Adrien is approaching “sexy lamp” levels of replicating sexist ways of writing a female character but just changing the gender. What else do you call him lying on the floor in despair while his love interest gets his superpowers and uses them to beat up his abusive father, while somehow being perfectly fine and happily kissing Marinette later after said father is dead and gone? Adrien’s trauma is debilitating when it serves the writers’ purposes, but stops being a problem as soon as they need him to smile and look pretty. The main reason Adrien’s trauma is so inconsistent is so that he can act as Marinette’s trophy so that Marinette has somebody to kiss in the final shot. If Adrien was despairing about not being good enough for her, or grossly crying about being an orphan, Marinette wouldn’t have a fun time kissing him. And if Marinette isn’t having fun, the members of the audience projecting onto her aren’t having fun either.

Speaking of how Adrien’s depiction relates to Marinette, here comes the controversial part of this post: while Marinette is not depicted as a literal slave owner in-story, narratively, she is very much treated as Adrien's owner from a meta perspective. We, the viewers, are meant to see Adrien as Marinette's property, and the twist of Adrien being a part of a slave race in a dynamic where Marinette holds all the cards is meant to be a good thing. We have been primed to view everything about Adrien to actually be about Marinette, because Marinette is the center of the universe of Miraculous and Adrien belongs to her because he’s the main character’s love interest. Adrien being revealed to be a slave that Marinette could control but then chooses to “merely” manipulate is meant to be glorifying to Marinette and titillating to the viewer. I will elaborate.

Marinette has been incredibly possessive of Adrien since day one and she is only occasionally depicted as being in the wrong about this, when she goes too far by the show’s standards. She stalks Lila and Adrien whenever she sees them hanging out together and she’s unreasonably jealous of Kagami. The only time she is depicted as being in the wrong is not when she's sniffing Adrien's pillow after breaking into his room, but when she actually bullies Kagami out of jealousy, and even that is depicted as more of an unfortunate misunderstanding than Marinette actively doing something wrong. Marinette is more sympathetic towards Kagami when she finds out she and Adrien aren't as close as she thought, that Kagami’s pursuit of Adrien is more hopeless than hers. Basically, Marinette is only in the wrong because Kagami isn't a threat, not because she was doing anything wrong by bullying her to defend her “territory”.

This gets flipped near the end of the season, though. When Adrien and Kagami do start dating, it's depicted as this big tragedy even more so than Master Fu losing his memories. Master Fu going missing is an afterthought, while Adrien choosing someone else over Marinette is the big “darkest hour” moment of the season three mid-finale, the cliffhanger moment of her crying in Luka’s arms while all hope is lost. Marinette isn’t directly crying about this, she is crying from “all the pressure”, but Marinette breaking down happens immediately after a scene of Kagami leaning in to kiss Adrien that has a somber dirge playing in the background. The first part of the finale has everything going wrong at the end; Master Fu is missing, Chloé gets willingly Akumatized, Marinette breaks down, and Kagami leans in to kiss Adrien. These scenes being put closely together is telling us that these are all bad things to happen.

Adrien ending up with Marinette is a given, but it's also taken for granted. Every girl with an interest in Adrien is depicted as an antagonist, while Marinette can do whatever she wants in pursuit of Adrien and will still be morally correct. Chloé and Lila, even Kagami to a degree, are villainized for their attraction to Adrien in a way Nathaniel, Luka or Zoé are not with their attraction to Marinette. Chloé and Lila are full-blown villains while Luka and Zoé are some of the most selfless members of the cast. Kagami is aggressive and socially awkward in a way that is used to justify Marinette's initial distrust and dislike of her (in ‘Ikari Gozen’ Alya voices her pity towards Marinette for having to spend time with her) while Nathaniel is just the pitiful bullied loner who’s still a liked member of the class friend group. Girls who want Adrien are bad for trespassing on Marinette’s territory and trying to “steal” something that “belongs” to Marinette.

The writers thinking Adrien belongs to Marinette is also not just subtext. Later in season five, when Marinette and Adrien finally start dating, Marinette even outright states that Adrien “kinda does a little” belong to her when she’s scared that Zoé has a crush on him. The fumbling of the line means that the writers are aware of how toxic it is to consider your partner your property, but they want to include that sentiment anyway, because that’s how they view the situation. Marinette’s boyfriend is her property and other people can’t even look at her property. ‘Emotion’ continues on this increased possessiveness by having the entire Marinette plot happen because she can’t conceive Adrien keeping things from her, because he isn’t allowed privacy from her while Marinette lying to Adrien (or Cat Noir) is a show staple.

This same attitude of Adrien not being allowed to have romantic options outside of Marinette has also been in the fandom for years. Every time a new female character was introduced, there was a worry that she’d “try to steal Adrien from Marinette”. Marinette and Adrien are endgame, the writers know this and the fandom knows this. The characters don't know this, but it doesn't matter because Adrien was already seen as Marinette's (future) boyfriend even back in season one when he barely knew her. And this attitude the writers and audience have is extended to the characters more and more as the show goes on, as almost every single character becomes an Adrinette shipper in support of Marinette in season five, while no one thinks to ask Adrien what he thinks about this. Only once, in ‘Desperada’ did Alya suggest that Adrien could make his own choice on who to date, but it was implied the choice should be Marinette specifically (Marinette smiles at this, while Kagami frowns). The cast is lucky the writers have decided Adrien already is Marinette's, or he’d be really uncomfortable.

Season five episode ‘Pretension’ goes as far with this as having Marinette basically ask Gabriel for permission to be with Adrien, convinced that she and Adrien can be together with no problems if she can just get him to approve of her. And then Gabriel tells her he’s promised Adrien to Kagami. You know, like a piece of property women were treated as before women were allowed to live without a man to control them. The finale then ultimately does have Gabriel agree to hand Adrien over to Marinette by dying and leaving her in charge of Adrien. Just because she uses the privilege to do some things for Adrien’s benefit doesn’t make what happened any less of a patriarchal transaction. In fact, the writers wrote it that way on purpose, with the knight and princess parallels they set up between Marinette and Adrien earlier in the show being something they are prominently proud of (the “reverse fairytale” as they put it). Adrien is the princess the dashing hero Marinette gets to earn with her feats of bravery; he’s handed to her like a piece of property and Marinette is too happy with her acquisition to even be outraged on Adrien’s behalf. And Adrien wasn’t even allowed to know about any of this, instead it gets handled solely between Marinette and Gabriel, like his opinion on the matter didn’t even matter. And why would his opinion matter, since he already is ready to promise himself to Marinette, even as the writers deny him the agency to actually make such a promise.

The goal of making it obvious that Adrien is cool with being objectified like this is probably why they make Adrien so obsessed with Marinette in season five, constantly repeating her name to himself and saying stuff like: “I can’t stop thinking about you” in ‘Pretension’. They need to drive it home to the audience exactly how okay Adrien is with everyone forcing him to be with Marinette. After all, you can’t force the willing. As of ‘Confrontation’, Adrien’s official goals for the future are: “I love Marinette Dupain-Cheng.” I guess, from the perspective of the writers, the childhood dream of wanting to be what his parents wanted from ‘Wishmaker’ wasn’t sad because of Adrien’s lack of agency; it was sad because he wasn’t forsaking all of his personal pursuits for Marinette specifically. As far as the writers are concerned, Adrien should only care about Marinette and nothing else.

This same entitlement is also present in Ladybug and Cat Noir's relationship. Every time Cat Noir is upset with Ladybug, like in Frozer, Glaciator, Syren, The New York Special or even Kuro Neko, they never talk about what caused it. This is especially blatant in cases where Ladybug has wronged Cat Noir personally, like Kuro Neko or the NY Special, where she never has to face up to what she did wrong because Cat Noir comes back because she “needs him”.  Cat Noir will always come back to her without her having to do anything because she is the main character and she says she needs him. He exists for her and her needs. He exists for her; it’s just another way he’s hers.

Speaking of how Adrien is treated affects Marinette, even Adrien’s trauma actually belongs to her in the writing.  I pointed out earlier that Adrien’s trauma shows up when the writers need to put him out of commission, but disappears as soon as he needs to be Marinette’s trophy, but it goes further than just inconsistency. The early seasons spend several episodes on how Adrien is being locked up by his father and unable to hang out with his friends and, between him and Marinette, Marinette is the one shown to be more upset and hurt by this. They don’t do this in every episode, as ‘The Bubbler’ actually does a phenomenal job of making Adrien’s upset actually about him, but the big point in ‘Glaciator’ is that Marinette is so upset that she can’t see Adrien that she accidentally leaves Cat Noir on read so he’s upset about that. Adrien is only upset because he didn’t get attention from Marinette, while Adrien’s literal abuse at the hands of his father is only important because it makes Marinette upset. Even Adrien himself gets in on this action in ‘Conformation’ when the writers go as far as having Adrien chastise himself of not being more worthy of Marinette’s love when his dad is once again busy ruining his life. Even Adrien himself makes his abuse about Marinette; him being abused is bad because it’s inconveniencing Marinette and inconveniencing Marinette makes him less worthy of her.

‘Cat Blanc’ is possibly the worst offender of all, though. This episode should be all about how Adrien is abused by Gabriel, culminating with Gabriel turning him into a monster that destroys the world. And yet, what is the episode actually about? It’s about Marinette. The worst thing that could happen to Adrien is about Marinette. Only Marinette gets to remember or even know about the possibility of Cat Noir getting Akumatized and only Marinette is traumatized by it happening. After all that the writers later dare to use this event that didn’t actually happen anymore, that Adrien doesn’t know about, to justify him giving his powers to Marinette, because he’s “scared of getting Akumatized” when something like that has never happened as far as he knows. But the writers had him reason this way anyway, because apparently the culmination of Marinette’s character development in the show means taking Adrien’s power as her own and then failing to win even with that at her disposal.

Another note about ‘The Bubbler’ that has to be pointed out is that it’s also the first example of Marinette being presented as good for Adrien simply because she treats him better than Gabriel. The final scene of Marinette giving Adrien his best birthday present yet and letting him think it comes from Gabriel is done to show how selfless Marinette is by letting Adrien keep thinking good things about his abuser. This idea that Marinette is morally good simply because she’s better than pond scum Gabriel is also present in the season five finale, where Marinette manipulates, gaslights and keeps important information from her abused slave boyfriend. Marinette is presented as being in the right because at least she didn’t literally control him with a magical geas like Gabriel did and gave him the object with which to do so (while notably not telling him what it does). Marinette will do the bare minimum of not taking literal ownership of Adrien and we’re meant to see her as a paragon of goodness for it, while she still has no respect for Adrien’s autonomy and hasn’t had any since the show started.

The way the Sentimonster “reveal” is handled shows this utter lack of respect for Adrien’s autonomy that the writers, and Marinette by extension, have. The reveal is not for Adrien, but for Marinette, just like every other piece of Adrien has been made to be about Marinette. Marinette gets to know and she gets to decide if Adrien gets to know, and she decides “no”. She will manipulate him and lie to him to keep him happy for herself, she will keep important information about him to herself that he might never find out if anything happens to her, because Adrien is hers and no one else’s and she has the right to make that decision because the world revolves around her because the world of Miraculous was created to be her playground. “Adrien” is just a toy on that playground for Marinette to play with as the writers see fit.

Now we’re coming back to Adrien’s role as the sexy, titillating love interest character that I talked about at the start of this essay. If Marinette granting Adrien the bare minimum of freedoms as a slave while manipulating him “for his own good” is meant to be a good thing, why is Adrien even a slave? Well, outside of the writers wanting to add a plot twist that doesn’t come with any messy plot they’d have to write about characters other than Marinette, Adrien being a slave is also meant to be titillating. What really is magical super slavery than very, very off the wall bondage and power play stuff? The idea that Marinette could rob her love interest of his free will with ease but won’t because she cares about him so much is very empowering in two different ways. It gives Marinette all the power in the relationship and it makes her out to be such a good person that even having ultimate power over another person won’t corrupt her. Adding to that, we have Adrien’s people pleaser abuse victim personality, which makes him fawn over the people he loves. If Marinette ever wanted to have control over Adrien, Adrien would give it to her of his own volition, no need for magical super slavery or unbreakable geases.

As I stated earlier, Marinette is meant to be the point of view main character the audience of teen girls projects themselves onto. So, really, Adrien’s slavery and abuse responses are all about that fantasy of having a cute boy you have all the power over but not needing to use it because the boy is so nice and devoted to you anyway. Adrien really is “perfect”, the perfect object of attraction, a being who technically has free will but whose free will you never have to take into account because he’s been designed and trained to value other people’s wants and needs over his own.

Marinette doesn't literally own Adrien within the story, but the writers make it very clear that they think she should. In fact, in all ways except the literal, she already does.

#ml critical #ml writing critical #miraculous ladybug critical #ml meta #ml salt #zagulous fandom #adrien agreste #just like with my 'adrien gets disrespected' post none of these things would be THAT bad by themselves #but it's this much stuff all at once

[miraculousdeservesbetter2024]

To be honest, with this series double standards and how it treats Chloe compared to literally everyone else, I’m about 99.9% sure that the lesson that they are trying to purvey (whether if it be about concealment of identity, the mere fact that “not everyone changes” or even “you’re the one who’s solely responsible for your own actions”), only implies to her. Once she’s gone, then none of those lessons no longer exist and you’re not allowed to dislike anyone else, because “no one’s prefect” or “their bad actions are justified”.

#The absolute insanity of this universe #ml salt #mlb salt #double standards #felix fathom #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste #andre bourgeois #audrey bourgeois #gabriel agreste #Chloe bourgeois #miraculous ladybug #ml #mlb #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #miraculous #miraculous tales of ladybug and cat noir #miraculousbeezcentral #bad writing

[motherofplatypus]

The funniest thing about thomas and co watching the finale and explaining stuffs while they're at it is that they made it worse by a long shot. It's like beating a dead bush with a dead horse while digging their own graves.

Explain that Mari is actually aware that Gabe is Monarch? Doesn't explain why she's going to his house without Chat to beat his ass.

Jokingly saying that Jagged's crocodile is important to the fight? Nice joke, but care to explain where this whole Kung Fu trio and pet plot came from?

Said that they had planned that Chat won't be in the final fight with Hawkmoth since the beginning? Good job, his character turned out has always been this worthless.

It was Amelie at the end and Emelie stayed dead? Good to know the last 8 years of her irrelevance actually became irrelevant.

Said it was actually Marinette's win? Of course when the villain finally achieved their goal it is the hero's victory.

They actually believe that Gabe is a hero? Hooray, so glad they actually believe that the terrorist who has no qualms nor remorse for physically and mentally beating his own son that he enslaved for his own business is a hero.

And that's not including how they don't explain how people become Miraculized despite it not being akumatization, or how Lila isn't affected by the nightmare, or why Gabe unified Tikki and Plagg in Deflagration instead of making the wish despite it doesn't requires him to unify them.

And those were from two episodes alone. Imagine if they had to explain other episodes, like Evolution and Derision. How deep can they dig their own grave?

#this is so embarrassing that it's amusing #just shut up and leave the damage as it is #haven't you learn from the last few years? #miraculous ladybug #miraculous salt #ml salt #mlb salt #ml writers salt #thomas astruc salt #ml writing criticism #ml writing critical #ml writing salt

[nixthelapin]

You know, I liked Lila as a character much better when she was just a lonely girl who lied to get attention and clout rather than some evil mastermind who somehow has three (3) different identities and has a secret lair in the catacombs under Paris.

But the writing team doesn’t want to hear that.

#not to mention how most of her lies suck and everyone’s iq takes a plummet whenever she does #honestly she should’ve been done once the whole ‘framing Marinette and getting her expelled’ thing was done #she literally tells the principal that she has a disease that makes her lie uncontrollably still no one doubts anything she says #wtf #the plot armor is thick with this one #she had no business being in s4 or 5 #especially once Alya leaned Marinette was Ladybug #miraculous #mlb #miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #marinette #marinette dupain cheng #lila rossi #volpina #ml salt #ml writing critical #ml writing criticism #lila salt