foundthe8wing

[foundthe8wing]

just for the record I don’t check this blog anymore

#wanted to update bc I maintained an air of 'you can reach out if you ever need me or have any questions' #and I think there was value in that but #I'm done #be good to each other etc etc #feel free to reference my posts as you wish just know I'm not active/available over here

[foundthe8wing]

oh hey while I’m talking about how dndads fans perceive me anyway, I feel like I should mention that I’m 18 years old?

#judging from posts from a while back it seems like all the younger fans think I'm 30 and all the older fans think I'm 14 #anyway. I'm an adult and I do feel that gives me certain responsibilities but also I just got here you know #Anthony's like twice my age I doubt he's intimidated by me

[foundthe8wing]

honestly thanks so much for talking about all the shit that the dndads cast has done. I'm a minor and while I wasn't on the discord I was super obssessed with the show and really didn't see/acknowledge any of the bad stuff in the podcast and fully didn't know about the discord stuff. and them normalizing all of it make adults in the fandom think they can do it too! like I've seen way too many posts sexualizing grant (in a serious way) and saying he has crushes on one of the dads and then I check and see the person posting is like 21 and it's really creepy and they should know better!

This is super old, I’m sorry it took me forever to get back to you, but thanks for this message. 

And yeah like . . . I think I’ve said this before but it’s 100% normal for teens to have crushes on adults and I think a lot of people posting about it don’t have bad intentions, but in general, adults discussing and joking about teenagers’ sexualities makes me uncomfortable. And again, even if you don’t have bad intentions, you can end up accidentally opening up doors for people who do.

Thanks again for reaching out, I wish you all the best and I hope you’re safe and doing well.

[foundthe8wing]

genuine answer for your genuine question: I don’t know if most people lump you in with hate blogs or not because I’m pretty sure most people who either casually shift through the discourse or try to ignore it completely simply don’t read your posts. You tend to make the best points out of all the ‘discourse blogs’ but you’re so overly verbose at times that people just see a wall of text and either call it a day or think it ridiculous without trying to read what you have to say. Blogs like the erin o neill one makes really weird ridiculous points but do it in a much more accessible and easy to consume way so people will read the entirety of their posts when they’re scrolling past, even if they aren’t interested. I think the general term of reference people have used is ‘discourse blogs’, and I think ‘hate blogs’ is used when speaking in a comedic sense and may be slapped on to any of you regardless of whether your takes can be considered legitimate criticism or weird illogical hate.

Yeah I mean, fair enough.

I really do try to be as concise as I can be, but part of the reason everything is so long is that when I DO keep my posts shorter, I end up dealing with a lot of really stupid counterarguments, so it’s easier on my end to try to preemptively address some of that stuff. I definitely do get that most people don’t want to read super long posts about stuff that’s not fun at all though, no matter which side of the issue you’re on.  

[foundthe8wing]

okay okay wait, if you don't all have me blocked I have a genuine question for the dndads stans: am I a "hate blog"

#keep seeing stuff about how 'all the hate blogs are doing xyz' and like #all I said was I don't like rape jokes or unsafe online spaces #so I'm curious #dndads #dungeons and daddies

[foundthe8wing]

A piece of media can’t properly promote messages it’s own creators don’t truly believe in

[foundthe8wing]

This is not a positivity post. I put it all under a cut so you can easily skip it and used the dndads negativity tag even though I’m not 100% sure whether this is the kind of thing that is supposed to be there.  If you aren’t interested in hearing me talk about content warnings and/or problems with them, please go enjoy some more cool art and discussions instead of reading this. It’s all under a cut - very skippable!

As payment for your time, here is a pic of Glenn being a good dad to Nick, who had a nightmare and was in the living room watching movies a bit too loud so that someone would wake up and keep him company. It worked and now he fell back asleep. Those Close boys, forever in my heart. 

[ID: A digital drawing of two people on a couch in a darkened living room. One is an Asian man with long dark hair, tattoos, a bracelet in Philadelphia pride flag colors, and a red shirt that says “Blessed Grandma.” He is looking affectionately at the other person. The other person is a kid with shorter dark hair with a red streak, a bracelet in trans pride colors, and a blue shirt that says “University of California Santa Barbara.” He is asleep and leaning on the first person. Both have black-painted fingernails. The light bouncing onto them suggests that they are in front of a TV. In the background is a potted plant, a family photo (a sloppy background redraw I did based on a very beautiful commission from Nat) and a bookshelf with books and a framed photo. /end ID] The very gently-phrased TLDR:  Enjoy their story all you want, they’re very funny and the characters are wild, but if you’re recommending the show to someone who might count on content warnings, maybe mention that the CWs on this show aren’t particularly reliable.

Keep reading

[foundthe8wing]

[ID: a tweet from @/lolkat on Oct 13, 2020: If you don't have the budget to moderate a community space/platform/server that means you don't have the budget for a community space/platform/server. End ID.]

#dunno why people think it's unfair to criticise them for issues with the server they charge ppl money to access but go off if you want #dndads #dungeons and daddies #8wing

[foundthe8wing]

hey folks, passing along info - if you’re sensitive to verbal/emotional abuse, the new ep that went up today evidently has some rough stuff from willy to ron, just a courtesy heads-up. 

[foundthe8wing]

I should be able to explain why this newest ep hit so hard but I can’t. It’s just too tough. I never post anything but to anyone else that is hurting because of the way the trial was handled, or how glenns abuse is handled, i just want you to know you aren’t alone. I’m rooting for you, and whatever situation i hope things turn out as good as they can.

#^^^^^ #sending all the support I can #inbox is open if you need it/feel free to DM me

[foundthe8wing]

Okay, I have some thoughts. First things first, I want to warn you that there’s a brief mention of sexual assault in the stuff I wrote below, and, while it may be somewhat ironic in a post pushing back on tone policing, I do want to apologize if I come across as overly aggressive towards you--my intention is to be direct, not mean.

So, to start: people have asked nicely. At this point I’m pretty confident that listing off all the times cast members have ignored or misled people who criticized them won’t change anyone’s mind, but to look at just one easily-receipt-able interaction:

I come back to this pretty often, but it’s because to me, it’s just so blatant. Someone said that this situation might be dangerous, Anthony agreed and said he’d do something, and then he didn’t. And then he ignored the issue for three months straight. 

Despite the fact that there are plenty of other instances of people politely reaching out to no avail . . . I don’t think I need them? This is enough to dissuade me from trusting Anthony or putting effort towards reaching out to him, because he’s already shown us that this is how he’ll respond, and he’s done nothing since then to indicate that he’s changed or will act differently going forward. If he’d apologized for mishandling this situation, that’d be one thing, but he refuses to even acknowledge it. So I have no good reason to think that polite, private criticisms and suggestions will lead anywhere. 

And either way, the notion that asking nicely is the only way to get change and that being angry and aggressive won’t change anything reflects poorly on the cast, not on the people calling them out. If you (general you, not you, larkofchaos) won’t accept criticism that’s not sugarcoated or given nicely, then your priority was always your own feelings and ego, rather than a desire to avoid causing harm. If, for instance, you won’t do content warnings because you’re afraid people will yell if they’re poorly done, then your goal in doing those content warnings is clearly to look good/avoid being yelled at, when the goal should be to reduce the risk of people being harmed by your content.

And when you do mess up, you’re still responsible for that and for fixing it, regardless of how nice people are about it.

To pull just one example from dndads: it’s fucked up that Anthony’s planned dare for Darryl was literal sexual assault; it’s fucked up that he put that in TD; it’s fucked up that the rest of the cast rolled with it. All of that is true whether I say “oof, Anthony seems like a great guy but this is pretty iffy” or “hey FUCK this and fuck you.” You can argue that the latter is a dick move, but it changes nothing about what Anthony did or his obligation to correct it.

Also: it’s not my job to walk them through how to be good people. They’re adults, they’re professionals, and they’re responsible for their own behavior. It’s nice when people who are hurt or marginalized by your content take the time to patiently explain things to you, but they’re never obligated to do so. I’m not a parent or a life coach or a friend to any member of the cast, I don’t owe them anything, and I don’t need to do free labor for them in order to be “allowed” to point out the harm they’re doing.

DnDads fandom, here’s some food for thought for you. 

You keep telling Anthony you want representation, that you want more diversity, you want characters confirmed as fandom wide headcanons, whatever. You tell him you want more. 

But, these same blogs that say these things reblog posts on the “men writing women” memes and rant on cis people writing trans characters and white people writing POC and whatever else, so let me off you this. 

If you were a content creator, and your fans were asking you for representation, while on the same note saying how people who aren’t [people group] can never get [people group] right, what would possess you to take that step to provide that? I want you to genuinely think about that, because as a content creator who prides themself on putting in the kinds of characters I’ve heard people cry for in my stories, seeing those kinds of things is very discouraging. Because, I, as a white person know my portrayal of a POC is never going to be as good as POC want it to be, but all I can do is try  my very best and listen to them on their critiques and turn around what I did wrong. 

I’m not saying Anthony is justified in the lack of diversity in NPCs, but you guys need to understand that when you tell him to provide diversity then also complain that [majority group] never portray [minority group] right is not helping your case. All you’re gonna do is discourage him from providing that. 

If you need evidence, here’s an actual Talking Dads quote form Anthony on Trans Nick and other fandom wide headcanons  ( I did not transcribe this scene, i thank my Discord friend for sending me this. I don’t know your Tumblr but if you see this just drop a say so in the notes) 

“Anthony: Oh wow. There are a lot of ones I like that are almost exclusively about gender and orientations and stuff like that. Of like, oh yeah maybe Nick is trans or or or any of those kinds of things. Cause those, it’s always like, not not that I would ever take those because uh, uh, and, make them part of the main canon just because I feel like that might- I don’t trust myself to not make that appropriative and weird. But I love that people from marginalized communities are taking those characters and being like “he’s ours now!”

Beth: Yeah. 

Anthony: ‘Nick, he’s- he’s black and he’s a trans man and Glenn loves him and it’s not a big deal.’ And like, all that kind of stuff.”

I’m sympathetic to sentiments like this, because this was my writing until this very year. My thought process was “I won’t write POC because I, as a white person, might fuck it up” and that thought process is only made so much stronger when if you do fuck up, no matter how minor or how severe, you’re met with nothing but inbox spam and threats and hostility. If you want response; use your words politely. When you attack them, nothing will change. Attacking does nothing but make them fear their own fans, and that’s genuinely not what we want. I know that’s not what we want. This callout/cancel culture people have created in this little fandom is so toxic, to both us and the dads. 

If you’re gonna ask something of the dads, do it nicely. Don’t come for their throats. If you, YOU personally, have sent them the same message multiple times and have no response after a couple weeks; then you get rights to get more aggressive. Not when you’re posting one call out on their Twitter.com and do nothing but yell and accuse. That’s not accomplishing anything. 

If I, a fifteen year old, find myself using more tact in these posts than grown ass adults, there’s definitely a problem here. And it’s not the dads. 

You wanna know that dads aren’t giving representation? Because they’re scared of fucking it up, they’re scared you ADULTS are going to come for their throats at the smallest mistake and continue to turn their fanbase into a warzone. Don’t make it a warzone. 

You know how you fix that? Approach them. Message them on some platform. Just say; Hey, I know your fans want [character] to be [minority group] and if you wanted help in learning how to confirm that, I am [minority group] and I’d be willing to help you.

It’s that easy! Wow! 

Because, honestly, even a sensitivity director can’t be perfectly knowledgeable on every single minority group. 

If you want your kind of minority group represented in DnDads, god dammit reach out to the cast and offer your input. Not you may not be an authority on your minority group, or some kind of genius on it, but one of those people reaching out and offering advice based on their own experiences is often much better than nothing. 

Like, the other day on twitter someone said, “Hey, Jenna and Anthony! I noticed you called Ratticus Finch ‘agendered’ and that’s not a perfect term for all nonbinary people, so I would suggest putting in some more research on terms before the next episode.” And THAT’S how you approach topics at first, not screaming and yelling. That’s how you put in advice. That’s how you provide criticism. 

I said when I first started talking about discourse that the adults are the problem, and i still stand by that. Because I am yet to see anyone under the age of 25 acting like this. Anyone younger I’ve seen on this has been tactful, and polite. Which really shows the difference in generations. It’s sad. 

I hold hope in the hosts, because they’ve made steps to change in the past. And they’re only gonna take the issues one hurdle at a time, you can’t expect everything to be managed all at once, they have to pace themselves or else they’re going to get burned out and that’s worse. 

And if this podcast at the moment is not up to your standards? That’s fine. Walk. Away Come check back in in a few months if you still hold interest and see if it’s what you want to associate yourself with. Just stop attacking the hosts, criticize and construct them instead. 

You get nothing out of tearing others down, only more destruction. 

#cw sa

[foundthe8wing]

Also adding:

Cancel culture isn’t some fucking amorphous, magical presence floating all around us-- “Oh my God, look out everyone! It’s the disease of cancel culture, we have to run away from it!” All cancel culture is, is people’s reaction to shit you did. When you say you want rid of cancel culture, what you’re saying is “I don’t want people to react this way to the thing that’s happening.” That’s not a thing you can do! That’s not a power that you, or anybody else, has. 

And a link to the episode (the pieces I’m quoting begin around 1:27:10)

If you have a platform of that scale, you have a responsibility, and hey, you can ignore that responsibility but then you’re just as culpable for getting shit on as a result.

[. . .]

You don’t get to have the power and also the immunity of ignorance. That’s like-- ignorance and benefit of the doubt are the things you have to check at the door when you go into the influencer club. Once you are in a position of power and you have clout--in any career, but let’s keep it in circle with specifically creators and content producers--there’s a tax on being there. And the tax is you have to be more responsible than most people do with those kinds of statements.

It’s a little bit like how if you have thirty grand in the bank, you don’t get to gripe about being broke. It can be cathartic to gripe about being broke, but once you have that thirty grand in the bank, sorry! That’s a thing you don’t get anymore; that’s the tradeoff.

- Jordan Cope of Sad Boyz podcast, from "The Curious Case of Shane Bilzerian"

[foundthe8wing]

I don’t think there’s really much overlap on the Venn diagram of “people who read my posts” and “people who still listen to the show,” but I want to make an effort to put this out there: if you listen to dndads, I would caution you against relying on their content warnings. They’re . . . still not great. 

(On that note, content warnings for this post: discussion of self-harm and a kid using a gun)

The categories they (supposedly) warn for are: profanity, violence, sexual content, drug/alcohol use, animal cruelty/animal death, violence towards children, self-harm/suicide, body horror, and gaslighting/emotional manipulation.

Unfortunately, these things still aren’t being warned for consistently. So, for instance, while there are currently (12/5/2020) no content warnings for episodes 35 and 36 on the official site, the Spotify descriptions contain warnings for “profanity, violence, sexual content, and violence towards children” and “profanity, sexual content, drug/alcohol use, violence towards children, and body horror,” respectively. (Screenshots under the cut). They don’t warn for discussion of self harm.

From episode 35:

Anthony: So Grant has this look of sheer surprise on his face. And he looks down at the wound as it's bleeding, and he goes— 

Grant: I-I felt that. I felt it, I actually felt it.

Darryl: Well, yeah, jeez, I can feel it from here. That looks horrible. Are you okay?

Anthony: He goes— 

Grant: No, it hurts and I don't like it, but it’s... that's something. I thought it would just be— I thought only Yeet would make me— but this did, but... I can't do that. I shouldn't. I don't want— I don’t like this feeling, so that’s... [tone becomes lighter, forced] Let's get in the game coach! Let's go do the game, coach!

Anthony: “You know what it's like when you're depressed and you can't feel anything at all, so even pain makes you feel like you're actually still alive, and that's a toxic negative thing? 

Grant: "Yeah. Yeah. It was. Ever since that I've kind of felt, or I guess not felt is sort of more of a thing, like I kind of just don't feel anything? All the time. Like I don't feel like I'm a person? 

But there are these little brief moments where something breaks through. Like when somebody hurts me or when I hurt somebody and I don't ... It's this weird thing where like my brain, I don't like doing them, but it's like the only thing that's like, “hey, you're still here!” And hurting somebody or killing somebody... it's bad. It's bad, right? It's bad. It's a thing we shouldn't want to do.

Yeet: "Yeah, you shouldn't want to. Sometimes we have to, but it's not a good thing.”

Grant: [trembling, near tears] Yeah, but it feels good to me in the moment, because it just makes this binary, like, “you're here, you're not here”. And if I could do that to somebody or if I get hurt, then it's like, “I'm here!” It's like this proof that I'm still here, and that I'm real. 

From episode 36:

As he runs up, he undoes his shoulder pads, and lets them fall off of his body. He runs and he tackles this huge ass spider hard.

Also, guns aren’t included on the list of what they warn for (imo they should be), but Paeden uses a gun in episode 47, so if you haven’t gotten there yet that’s a thing to be aware of.

Just, you know, be careful, look out for each other, and maybe keep relying on friends if you need content warnings so you don’t get blindsided. 

#dndads #dungeons and daddies #there might be some other things the cws are missing but I don't have the time/energy to comb through every episode #8wing

[foundthe8wing]

If you have a platform of that scale, you have a responsibility, and hey, you can ignore that responsibility but then you’re just as culpable for getting shit on as a result.

[. . .]

You don’t get to have the power and also the immunity of ignorance. That’s like-- ignorance and benefit of the doubt are the things you have to check at the door when you go into the influencer club. Once you are in a position of power and you have clout--in any career, but let’s keep it in circle with specifically creators and content producers--there’s a tax on being there. And the tax is you have to be more responsible than most people do with those kinds of statements.

It’s a little bit like how if you have thirty grand in the bank, you don’t get to gripe about being broke. It can be cathartic to gripe about being broke, but once you have that thirty grand in the bank, sorry! That’s a thing you don’t get anymore; that’s the tradeoff.

- Jordan Cope of Sad Boyz podcast, from "The Curious Case of Shane Bilzerian"

#dndads #dungeons and daddies #yes there's a reason this is in those tags #tone policing #8wing

[foundthe8wing]

Tone Policing

“A conversational tactic that dismisses the ideas being communicated when they are perceived to be delivered in an angry, frustrated, sad, fearful, or otherwise emotionally charged manner” - Dictionary.com

[foundthe8wing]

When creators flag their content as 18+ on Patreon, you get a little box that looks like this before you continue to their page

Dungeons and Daddies doesn’t have this (as of 11/27/2020). And I’m not even necessarily saying they need to, but I’m tired of people saying the Patreon and discord are “clearly 18+” when they’re not. 

They really like saying “per Patreon’s policy,” so I’m gonna drop the relevant policies here for reference:

From “Your Account” in the general Terms of Use:

To create an account you must be at least 13 years old. To join a creator’s membership as a patron, or provide a membership as a creator, you must be at least 18 years old or have your parent’s permission.

From “18+ Creations” in the Community Guidelines:

As we strive to create a community that is inclusive and diverse, we want to take into consideration our diverse user base of different ages and sensitivities. We ask creators to flag themselves as 18+ if their creations may be considered inappropriate for people under 18 years of age. This may include nudity or discussion around sexuality.

We understand that you may make a mix 18+ creations and other types of creations, and that is okay with us too. We will always review your work within its context. However, if you have concerns, please let us know and we will provide you with guidance on how to maintain a dual presence.

This is current as of November 27, 2020. You can find the complete policies here.

Anyway, my point here wasn’t that dndads is violating these policies, but I think it’s helpful to have them available for reference when they say they’re using this as a baseline, and I think it’s wild how they never acknowledge that 18+ Patreons exist and are an option. 

[foundthe8wing]

They really like saying “per Patreon’s policy,” so I’m gonna drop the relevant policies here for reference:

From “Your Account” in the general Terms of Use:

To create an account you must be at least 13 years old. To join a creator’s membership as a patron, or provide a membership as a creator, you must be at least 18 years old or have your parent’s permission.

From “18+ Creations” in the Community Guidelines:

As we strive to create a community that is inclusive and diverse, we want to take into consideration our diverse user base of different ages and sensitivities. We ask creators to flag themselves as 18+ if their creations may be considered inappropriate for people under 18 years of age. This may include nudity or discussion around sexuality.

We understand that you may make a mix 18+ creations and other types of creations, and that is okay with us too. We will always review your work within its context. However, if you have concerns, please let us know and we will provide you with guidance on how to maintain a dual presence.

This is current as of November 27, 2020. You can find the complete policies here.

Anyway, my point here wasn’t that dndads is violating these policies, but I think it’s helpful to have them available for reference when they say they’re using this as a baseline, and I think it’s wild how they never acknowledge that 18+ Patreons exist and are an option. 

#¯\_(ツ)_/¯ #8wing