itsamiraculous

[itsamiraculous]

they are so <3

[itsamiraculous]

This is just a unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.

Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.

And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.

This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.

And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is dong it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.

But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.

I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.

And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betraying by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he did that. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.

Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.

Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.

I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.

If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.

It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show àhas also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's saàad, but I guess it is what it is.

#long post and valid #Adrien Agreste #Marinette Dupain Cheng #S5 Finale

[itsamiraculous]

Really not interested in this post turning into a debate of any kind, I'm really just curious about the spread of this.

Also, purposefully did not put in "I'm not sure" or "I have complicated feelings" because I want you to have to pick. I'm sure many have doubts on their theory, and I'm sure many have complicated feelings of some kind... but if you HAD to pick, from the options above, which applies best?

#ultimately im not sure #i think the finale couldve been hadled better most definitely #emilie im not too sure about #it does feel very surreal #however life for a life

[itsamiraculous]

hi have himb hes been on my mind

[itsamiraculous]

[itsamiraculous]

Not enough of miraculers are talking about this:

Marinette gives Nino her tiara and he wears it throughout the episode.

Some of you may think that it looks silly on him. To me, it looks fine.

[itsamiraculous]

this one got away from me a bit i'm not gonna lie

[itsamiraculous]

i hope that one day i will finally be ok….i’ll make a cherry pie when it is all over

[itsamiraculous]

Okay, so what I was saying in my long Gabriel analysis rings true. (Ha ha...rings....) He changed to be accepted by Emilie's parents.

Deep down, Gabriel probably relates to Marinette. In the story Feligami tell...Marinette could easily be the poor tailor, while Adrien is the heir to the empire, ready to throw it all away for her.

At some point, Gabriel got twisted and sold out his values. It was probably a gradual process, which explains why Emilie initially fell in love with him and then stuck with him despite her unhappiness with him later.

In one of her videos for Nathalie, she said Gabriel got stuck on things. He was good enough for her but not for himself.

When he looks at Marinette, he sees a little of what he used to be. When he gives her that speech about being naive in the fashion world...he's talking about himself, once upon a time. I think he once had a dream like hers, and he let it go, focusing instead on the wealth and status he needed to be good enough for his in-laws.

Now, he envies Marinette, even if he's unaware of it. That's the only reason a grown man would be fixated on her in that way. He's treating her the way Emilie's parents treated him. He has to break her and get her out of his son's life because if he doesn't - if she achieves her dreams of marrying Adrien and becoming a designer without selling out her principles - it means he could have done this too. It will force him to reflect and take accountability for his bad decisions...and he just can't cope with that.

Similarly, when he hurls abuse at Cat Noir about what an ill-mannered child he is, and when he goes to such lengths to control Adrien...I really think he's seeing a reflection of his younger self there too.

Underneath the pancakes and bad dancing and total insanity, the man is nothing but a writhing heap of regrets and won't see that he had so many chances to do things another way.

[itsamiraculous]

Adrien Agreste And His Courageous Act

Guys, we need to appreciate Adrien for a second.

Adrien lives the worst life you can ever imagine. His mother is gone and his father is cold and cruel. His father is the main villain terrorizing Paris and his goal is to save his dead mother, who sits just below his feet. His modeling career is a show and an act that he doesn’t want to put up with anymore. The people his father forces him to be with are people he doesn’t love (except Kagami). He hasn’t had any social interactions outside of his parent’s circle till he was 14.

Season 4 has made things worse. He cannot trust anyone with all of his baggage (except Marinette), he was forced to leave Paris, and then he lost his identity to his cousin, which by the way, has been something he’s been questioning all season. To top it all off, it is confirmed that he is a sentimonster.

The only thing he had was Chat Noir; freedom, an identity. But when Ladybug started creating the superhero team, that too was taken away. His partnership with Ladybug was his highest value, and it was slipping away bit by bit.

At this moment, he thought he lost it and that it was over. There was nothing for him to do. His freedom is held in chains by his fear. It was here where he was at his lowest. He doesn’t show it too much, he is used to the pain and disappointment. That doesn’t discredit the fact that it hurts.

He goes home to find out Ladybug made the biggest mistake of her life. She panics and her thoughts are clouded by fear. Adrien had every right to hold a grudge against her. He had every right to be angry. BUT, he chooses not to. His problems can take a back seat for a second. He puts HER first! He consoles her, he comforts her, he tells her to trust him. She was right to do so. Adrien’s most courageous act here was to put his feelings on a shelf to make sure Ladybug got what she needed in the moment. This does not discredit his problems, he has plenty and he needs to talk them over with someone, but this wasn’t the time. His patience was the hero.

In the end, Adrien got what he wanted, a partnership between him and his lady. But at what cost? The threat of his own father looms over the city of Paris and the once confident Ladybug is reduced to ashes. Yes, he got what he wanted, but he is willing to sacrifice that to help HER! He is willing to risk his wish by putting her first. He offers his hand, he gives her a hug, he reassures her, he remains her faithful partner. The journey ahead is going to prove to be challenging, but he is going to stay by her side till the very end. After all he has been through this season, that is admirable!

I do hope he brings up his feelings to her and is honest about the baggage he carries. She needs to understand where he is currently, but that is a problem for next season. I have full confidence that they are going to talk everything out by being honest to each other. They are stronger now than ever before, not even Hawkmoth will take it away. They have a lot to face, with Hawkmoth’s connection to Adrien, Felix and the Peacock Miraculous, and getting the other miraculous back, but the heroes are going to win. Heroes never die. Ladybug and Chat Noir are going to prevail, taking it one day at a time!

[itsamiraculous]

This is really interesting. I was thinking a very similar thing after finding out about Felix. I do feel that you can't ignore that it's vague over whether Kagami and Adrien are also sentimonsters due to how Felix treated them in Emotion, but he could've equally felt a connection to him due to them being raised in a very similar fashion and being the premise of his creation.

I am curious as to the timeline as we know Felix's father used the miraculous first? And he died around the same time Emilie did from what we understand of the episode of Felix. If anything, he died soon after Emilie. This could mean there is no one speed of deterioration, even if Felix was created around the age of 8 as Adrien remembers a childhood with him; Felix's fathers deterioration would have been soon after that if it was as fast as Emilie's and Nathalie's which was rapid. Maybe he did take longer because it was just the once. We don't know why Emilie used the miraculous in the first place, especially now if Adrien isn't a sentimonster. We don't know how much she uses it. Nathalie used it a fair few times. The only other thing I can think of, of why there might be different lengths of deterioration, is how long the miraculous had been damaged. So the longer it had been damaged, the faster the pace of deterioration

Sorry, your post got me thinking 😅

I don't fully think that Adrien is a sentimonster because the timing doesn't work

Let me explain, we know that Emilie got the Peacock Miraculous from Gabriel almost soon after they got married - I don't rember when he said that they went to Tibet for their honeymoon or something like that, where they found both the Peacock and the Butterfly pin, and then we know he gave it to her back in Paris

Now, Adrien grew up regularly, we've seen his memories from when he was very little, we know that he was friends with Chloe when they were babies and played a lot with Felix too back then, and he used to draw pictures of his family, so we know that if he were a sentimonster Emilie created him like fifteen years ago, as a newborn basically

The problem is, if she really created him back then - 15 years as Gabriel himself said- she would have fallen into a coma years ago

Nathalie used the broken Peacock Miraculous like, what? Two times? Mainly to create allies for akumized people and only once to create a sentimonster from scratch (Ladybug).

And look at her conditions now, she can barely stand, she spent all fourth season in bed, weak, ill, constantly coughing, and only lately she started standing again only thanks to those mechanic prosthetics, but sometimes the attacks are so strong they're still not enough to help her.

She keeps having the same symptoms Emilie had, as Adrien recalls, BUT that she had only during the last period of her life, she was still seen as "healty" before, he never claimed she had a illness when he was younger, he always pictured and remembered her as a lively person (also, I don't mean this as a mean comment of course, but she could also still stand)

Okay, Nathalie used the Miraculous 1/2 times more than Emilie and created only one sentimonster, which is the thing that requested more strength - we saw her struggle while creating Ladybug - but like, you mean to tell me that these two women did basically (almost) the same things but Nathalie's health worsened like that in a matter of months while for Emilie it took almost 14 years to "die"??? It doesn't make any sense.

I think that Emilie didn't actually use the Miraculous, she just wore it and when Duusu came out and they started talking she decided to transform but then stopped there - maybe because, since it was already broken (second pic) it started affecting her health in that moment.

((( Plagg himself told Adrien that he couldn't transform back to Chat Noir if he was still blocked in Chloe's bracelet, otherwise it would have ruined his Miraculous and be dangerous for him. So even something as simple as transforming could be dangerous if the Kwami/Miraculous is damaged.

(Also the fact that Kwamis are aware of the danger of a broken Miraculous not just for them but for their holders too connects to another - maybe kess serious - theory of mine) )))

But that's it, at first it was only a "subtle" hint of an illness, that not even Adrien noticed, only Gabriel who knew what happened and what started it and already then tried looking for a cure (fifth pic), but that then worsened with the passing of time until her health deteriorated that much she fell into a coma. Differently from how it started with Nathalie who really used the Miraculous and now, after a couple of months if not less, is seriously ill.

So again, if Adrien really was a Sentimonster I think it should have taken Emilie definitely less then 14 years to die

[itsamiraculous]

I love how the body language of their kiss really reflects how they feel for one another.

Adrien holds Marinette gently like she is something precious because that's what she has always been to him, throughout their relationship and friendship:

"You're amazing Marinette"

"Marinette´s important to me (...)"

He values Marinette´s presence in his life and has expressed how grateful he is for what she does to others and who she is to him.

*Thinks about the scene where he says she´s our everyday Ladybug and NY special when he hugs her tightly for fighting for him to go on that trip, standing up to his father before they were even together.*

Marinette immediately cups both Adrien´s cheeks tenderly and holds his face, shielding him from the dangers of the world, his cruel father and all the things he was forced to do against his will.

It enhances how protective she is of him. She is Adrien´s knight in shining armour and she will always be there to save him.

*Battles Volpina to save Adrien (´s illusion) from falling off the Eiffel Tower; Hides him in an Egyptian coffin to protect him from Riposte; Immediately rushes to the train station to stop him from leaving Paris in Risk...*

I love that Adrinette´s (and even Ladynoir´s) love language is physical touch since these two just have so much love in their hearts for one another to give and it just complements them so well. Marinette does not know what is it like to grow up without affection whereas Adrien suffered neglect most of his life.

They instinctively reach for each other at every opportunity and thrive on that love <3

[itsamiraculous]

A few things to say, here.

First, credit to my teenager, who said, 'It's interesting how Ladybug and Cat Noir grow up right after seeing that they can't do it all on their own. It's like the death of the ego, that kind of thing.'

Indeed - a huge step in maturity is to see that it's okay to ask for help. This is paralleled by the next episode, when Adrien overhears his friends asking why he didn't tell them just how bad things were at home. This is so common with not just children but even adults trapped in abusive relationships. You feel like it's your burden to carry and no one can help you out.

In fact, if Adrien had told all his friends the extent of what was going on, they might have told their parents, and one (or all) of them might have contacted an authority who could have helped raise a legal case to get Adrien away from Gabriel. But this just doesn't occur to you, when you're the child. Not when you've been groomed to accept that this is just 'what adults are like'. It's hard to accept that there are better adults who would move heaven and earth to help you - especially because it means accepting just how awful your own father (in this case) is.

This is 100% why Cat suddenly lashed out at Gabriel and felt able to get out his real feelings - because others made him see just HOW wrong it all was. He finally accepted what his father is. He's primed to find out that he's Monarch. I don't even think it'd be a shock, now.

(More below the images)

Then - after so many years of Cat being 'the sidekick' who wasn't always necessary, who stepped aside while Ladybug got most of the praise, it was beautiful for him to have this moment of realisation that actually everyone loves him too - that he's just as needed. The fact that it first came from Kim and Max somehow made it even bigger - the two characters who've emoted the least and shown the least sensitivity all this time were reaching out for him.

And then, this - them all dealing with the situation in Ladybug's absence. Cat led the team. We've seen her do it without him so many times. This time, he finally stood on his own. He handled it without having to lean on her and truly proved himself to everyone. I've been waiting for this for aaaaaaaaaaaaages. I always said of course he needs support, but he also needs to save himself. He wasn't previously capable of this, but he is now.

It also goes back to what I said at the start - maturity comes from seeing that it takes everyone, not just you. Pound it, Cat Noir.

[itsamiraculous]

You think Marinette’s emotions were having some.. small opinions about seeing Chat Noir’s black suit revealing more and more white as he slowly detransformes while basically pouring his entire heart out to her when they thought they reached the end of the line, that he secretly still thought so depressingly little of his own value as person this entire time?

Cause ngl, that was probably one of the worst possible places for Adrien’s transformations to mostly vanish in such a horrible situation. And what a gut-punching visual reminder for Marinette that Chat Blanc was not just caused by her breaking his heart (as she slowly learned in season 4 through set-ups and then for good in s5 through pay-offs over time) but so many more reasons playing into Chat’s civilian life she doesnt know the details of that made him so overly depended on his love for her (which is STILL the case Mr. I’m-sorry-Marinette-I’m-not-worthy-of-your-love as his father ruins his life!)

Or let’s talk about that Marinette’s jacket is more dark grey here than outright black and that would make Ladybug more and more look like

the fucking DUST CORPSE he’s afraid of turning her into as her demise

👏But 👏besides 👏that 👏I’m 👏good👏

👏How 👏are👏 you? 👏

[itsamiraculous]

God damnit! I knew Monarque’s facial expressions looked familiar!

Even the eyebrows are the same!

It’s actually quite remarkable that the show manages to let Adrien/ Chat Noir and Gabriel/ Hawkmoth (as civilians or whatever miraculous forms) have such individual designs - not even resembling each other too much at all - and yet through the facial expressions, the way they talk and their body language they naturally share one can still consistently recognize them - at least on some subconscious level - as father and son.

Come to think of it. This entire scene of Monarque being fake-kind to Chloé to use her was in general top notch in this regard:

I mean, YEAH. This is absolutely Adrien’s / Chat Noir’s evil and manipulative father.

And the only way to show and convey kindness/ politness this man would acknowledge to be “worthy” of himself to use in a situation like this is either the way his own “perfect” son behaves, or at the very least Gabriel knows exactly what type of kind and polite behavior HE is demanding from Adrien.

I dont have a gif of Adrien moving in the subtle ways like Gabriel copies in the upper one but it’s definitely closer to Adrien’s body language than Gabriel’s own (though by instinct it 300% reminds me of CatWalker

but maybe that’s influenced by Monarque being a miraculous identity and so was CatWalker who - as we know - is the perfect [and desperate and completely submissive] prince Adrien was raised to be so my point still stands).

And the second gif is 100% the move we long know from Adrien and also one we know comes from the way Gabriel teached Adrien to express himself for formal politness towards a woman:

[itsamiraculous]

[itsamiraculous]