#but still i think she is just an inherently more ambitious person than jaime in this regard

[ilynpilled]

george did not write “if i were a woman id be cersei” and vice versa as correct statements imo. while i do believe that their respective trials that they faced as a result of their gender had grave effects on them as people and shaped them into much of what they are, i still think there are fundamental differences in nature. like this is demonstrated by how differently they acted as little children (treatment of tyrion, murder of melara, etc). i think they have some core distinctions. especially with what they personally desire the most above all else and their differing levels of empathy. this was no doubt influenced by their experiences and societal roles as well but i do still think it is part of their nature too. they have some very interesting and important similarities, but they are by no means the exact same only distinguished by experiences. i think it is always a mix of nature and nurturer, like your experiences can suppress or intensify certain qualities that you have, for better or worse. they have agency. they responded to their trauma in their own way. the twins not being the same person on a fundamental level is meant to be subversive. put in opposite positions i do not think we would have the exact same people just switched. like this feels like it is emphasized in the text to me

#like even when jaime says that line it feels ironic #he says hed make them kill him #but cersei did in fact go thru that #and she did not make them kill her #once again just random twitter thread was put on my feed #dont even disagree w some of it #just believe this part is not very correct #i always wondered if they were opposite genders they might have turned out to be more well adjusted #maybe yes maybe not we cant know for sure it depends on the circumstances #i do think it seems to allign w their core desires more and could end up being less devastating #u can argue how that core desire really developed in cersei to begin with #but still i think she is just an inherently more ambitious person than jaime in this regard #like maybe cers would have a healthier relationship w power if she had more access to it #but then again like both are constructs that could destroy them anyway #there is an inherent violence present in both that could destroy a person #like it did the both of them in canon #so that might happen again but just in different ways #and if we r gonna get into the biology of it (not that it matters its not like asoiaf canon is good at this shhshs) they are fraternal twins #same as regular siblings

[jackoshadows]

"GRRM is an old white guy writing the popular 90's bodice ripper trope of 'forced seduction' with his couples" I was thinking about george's couples and how... violent everything is with them (not even like dany/drogo but say jon/val he likes her for her warrior qualities), not that I think there was any jonsalsa anywhere but even if there was it would not be what their shippers want it to be with him being really soft and disney princess stuff like in the songs that sansa herself likes. Honestly I don't blame anybody for not liking george's romances because they are either really aggresive or there is a big age gap or incest but he's not writing these for people who only like fluffy YA books. They should read stuff that are more to their tastes, these books are not for them.

I don't think Jon/Val is aggressive exactly. Jon has a type - girls who go against the grain, who are different to the stereotypical high born Westerosi ladies, who are proactive and get things done. The girls who are ready to get down and dirty in order to get things done, who aren’t afraid to get dirt and mud on them, who are competitive and ambitious. He admires both Val and Alys Karstark for bravely beating the odds - like when Val goes on a dangerous mission to get Tormund and Alys escaping her uncle, getting to the wall and agreeing to a marriage with one of the Freefolk.

IMO, Val/Jon would actually be one of the more healthy, non problematic relationships in the books. It's age appropriate for asoiaf. I think she’s in her early twenties and he’s 17/18. It has no incest, no abuse, no consent issues, both of them are attracted to each other. It’s a great ship! Unfortunately there’s no emotional investment in this relationship and it’s clear that the author is not planning on going this route. Jon/Val is the equivalent of Dany/Daario, if Daario was younger - 20 instead of 30.

Where 'forced seduction' comes into play in romance novels of yore is typically when the guy kidnaps the girl or forces himself on her and there is a lot of abuse involved and she ends up falling in love with him. Most of the Sansa ships in the books fall into this category. She's a hostage, she's forced into marriage, she's LF's pawn etc. Jaime is verbally and emotionally abusive towards Brienne and keeps denigrating her as a person while she falls in love with him.

Dany is sold off into marriage with Drogo and does not have a choice there. It's so bad, she wants to die at one point. And she falls in love with him. Ygritte threatens to reveal to Mance that Jon is still a NW brother if he doesn't sleep with her. When he does sleep with her, he is confused and guilt ridden about his oaths and not wanting to sire a bastard like Ned did and just feeling terrible and unsure about the whole thing. And he falls in love with her.

I think Sandor holding a dagger to Sansa’s throat and demanding she sing is for me an example of violence in GRRM’s romance rather than Jon seeing Val slash a man’s throat for trying to steal her and finding that to be sexy. Besides the world of Asoiaf is inherently violent, making it hard for any kind of Disney romance like Jonsa stans are expecting for Sansa.

Sansa did want a Disney prince from the songs initially but she is starting to be attracted to the Hound who is no Disney prince. This is what Jonsa shippers don’t seem to get - that Sansa’s story gradually shifts from a childish need to marry Disney prince Joffrey and become queen to a more undefinable attraction to a man who is anything but the chivalrous, handsome prince from her songs. 

I do agree hundred percent that Jonsa will never work in the books given how different Jon and Sansa are as characters, their likes and dislikes, their separate and very different narrative arcs and themes, their lack of emotional connection. More importantly Jonsa will never happen because of Jon’s relationship with Arya and Arya’s relationship with Sansa. And GRRM would never do that to one of the best relationships in the books that he clearly loves writing for.

What is your favorite line you’ve ever written?

“I certainly like ‘Stick ‘em with the pointy end.’ And it’s more than one line, but I like the ‘Oath of the Night’s Watch.’ I revised it a number of times, polished it to get it exactly how I wanted it and to this day, it still gives me goosebumps when I hear it.” [source]

Granny: Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?

George R.R. Martin: “Say something to the reader?” No, I’m just reporting how the characters feel. Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader.- GRRM, SSM

#asks