#im a big spidey 2099 fan

[yellowocaballero]

Miguel is Fine, Actually (Being Spider-Man's Just Toxic As Hell)

Before I watched ATSV I said that I would defend my man Miguel O'Hara's actions no matter what, because he's always valid and I support women's wrongs. I was joking, and I did not actually expect to start defending him on Tumblr.edu. But I'm seeing a lot of commentary that's super reductive, so I do want to bring up another perspective on his character.

Miguel wasn't acting against the spirit of Spider-Man, or what being Spider-Man means. Miguel isn't meant to represent the antithesis of Spider-Man. Miles is the antithesis of Spider-Man. Miguel represents Spider-Man taken to its extreme.

Think about Miguel's actions from his perspective. If you were a hero who genuinely, legitimately, 100%, no doubt about it, believed that somebody is going to make a selfish decision that will destroy an entire universe and put the entire multiverse at severe risk - if you had an over-burdened sense of responsibility and believed in doing the right thing no matter what - you would also chase down the kid and put him in baby jail to try and prevent it. He believed that he was saving the multiverse, and that Miles was putting it in danger for selfish reasons. Which is completely unforgivable to him, because selfishness is what he hates the most. And then he goes completely out of pocket and starts beefing with a 15yo lmfaooo he's such a dick.

But why did Miguel believe that? Why did he believe that Miles choosing himself and his own happiness over the well-being of others was the worst possible thing? Why did he believe that tragedy was inevitable in their lives, and that without tragedy Spider-Man can't exist?

Because he's Spider-Man.

Peter Parker was once a fifteen year old who chose his own happiness over protecting others. It was the greatest regret of his life and he never forgave himself. Peter's ethos means that he will put himself last every time, and that he will sacrifice anything and everything in his life - his relationships, his health, his future - to protecting and helping others. Peter dropped out of college because it interfered with Spider-Man. He destroyed his own future for Spider-Man. He ruins friendships and romantic relationships because Spider-Man was more important. If Peter ever tries to protect himself and his own happiness, then he's a bad person.

That is intrinsic to Peter. Peter would not be Peter without it. A story that is not defined by Peter's unhappiness is not a Spider-Man story. If Peter doesn't make himself miserable, then he's just not Peter.

That is a Spider-Man story: that not only is tragedy inevitable, that if you don't allow yourself to be defined by your tragedy then you're a bad person. If you don't suffer, then you're a bad person. If you ever put anything above Spider-Man, then you're killing Uncle Ben all over again. Miguel isn't the only one that believes this - as we saw, every Spider-Man buys into what he's saying. There's no Spider-Man without these beliefs.

Miguel attempted to find his own happiness, and he was punished in the most extreme way. He got Uncle Ben'd x10000. He tried to be happy, and it literally destroyed his entire universe. It's the Spider-narrative taken to the extreme. Of course Miguel believes all of this. Of course he believes this so firmly. He's Spider-Man. That's his story. And the one time Miguel tried to fight against that story, he was punished. And like any Spider-Man, he'll slavishly obey that narrative no matter the evil it creates and perpetuates. Because if he doesn't, the narrative will punish him. The narrative will always punish him. It's a Spider-Man story.

I don't think the universal constant between Spider-Mans, the thing that makes them Spider-Man, is tragedy. I think it's the fact that they never forgive themselves. And Miguel is what that viewpoint creates. He doesn't believe this things because he's an awful, mean person. He believes them because he's a hero. He's a good person who hates himself.

Across the Spider-verse isn't really a Spider-Man story. It's a story about Spider-Man stories. Miguel's right: if this was a Spider-Man story, then Miles acting selfishly really would destroy the universe. But Miles' story isn't interested in punishing him. It pushes back against Peter's narrative that unhappiness is inevitable and that you have to suffer to be a good person. It says that sometimes we do the right thing from love and not fear, and that Peter's way of thinking is ultimately super toxic and unhappy. ITSV was about Miles deciding that he didn't need to be Peter Parker, that all he needed to be was Miles, and ATSV is about how being Peter Parker isn't such a good thing. Miguel shows that. Whatever toxic and unhealthy beliefs he holds - they're the exact same beliefs that any Spider-Man holds. He's a dick, but I don't think he's any more awful a person than Peter is.

TL;DR: Miguel isn't a bad person, he just has Spider-Man brainrot.

#across the spider-verse #atsv #atsv spoilers #across the spider-verse spoilers #across the spiderverse #across the spider verse #miguel o'hara #atsv meta #source: i recognized an embarassing amount of those cameos #im also seeing a lot of ppl make a lot of assumptions about what miguel was injecting and why #we dunno guys! im not gonna suppose anything #I just think that Miguel and Miles are great foils #and that what makes them interesting as foils #is the fact that they're both good people who want to do the right thing #miguel shows how that gets twisted #to the point where you beef with a 15yo sometimes which is still so funny #im a big spidey 2099 fan #which I love bc it is NOTHING like spiderman and yet it's such a good spiderman story #but talking about comics migs is useless bc he has 0 in common with atsv migs #but there is a lot of VERY cool stuff to say about how #the sm2099 comic has nothing to do with spiderman at all whatsoever extremely pointedly #but its still a wonderful spiderman story that finds its own way #tbh it was kind of a breath of fresh air to read a spider-man story that wasn't about spider-man for once #and that was just about miguel #anyway stan women's wrongs #miguel o hara #miguel ohara #my writing

[hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger]

Did 616 Peter Parker lost his relevance in terms of comic book craft ever since the clone saga or even after, I mean after the earlier boom of early 90's, his lines kind of became less relevant and the big two using their less popular titles to experiment and the rise of other publishers, being indie of under the umbrella of a powerful mother company, like Wildstorm, Vertigo, Dark Horse etc he kind of disappear ?

I don’t think so at all no.

If you are asking if Spider-Man stopped being cutting edge after the Clone Saga the answer is no. He stopped being cutting edge long before that, long before the 1990s. Simply because the archetype of superhero he helped pioneer had become so disseminated he was no longer AS unique, now just being unique by having the best supporting cast and one of the best rogue’s galleries in comics along with his specific nuances to his personality and mythos.

However there is an important distinction between being new and bleeding edge and being relevant. They aren’t one and the same thing though they can be at times. Not a comic book but an apt example. In the 1980s Licence to Kill was a cutting edge James Bond film because at the time it borrowed the least from the original novels and was much more gritty and violent than anything before, being a precursor to Casino Royale in that regard. But it didn’t land with audiences. People weren’t ready for that back then even though it was ‘cutting edge’. Cutting edge...but not ‘relevant’. 

Relevant though can mean a few things but on the most fundamental level it means that the character and story needs to be able to connect to mass audiences of the time. In that regard Spider-Man was and continued to be relevant from day 1 in 1962.

This isn’t simply a case of him having a big splash in the 1960s and retaining most of those fans into latter decades, crystallizing into a hardcore fanbase which could be relied upon to support his books.

New adaptations and versions of Spider-Man, including versions not Peter Parker, are systemically successful.

Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, Spider-Man 1994, Spider-Man 2000 the video game, Spider-Man 2099, Spider-Girl and of course Ultimate Spider-Man (in theory geared specifically towards a new younger generation) were all incredibly successful and successful at a time when Spider-Man’s place in pop culture wasn’t what it would be after 2002 with the movie. Prior to that movie Joe Average who’d never read a comic book or seen a Spidey cartoon could recognize Spider-Man by sight and know he could cling to walls and spin webs. Maybe they could even name his secret identity. But beyond that other elements of his mythos were not that well known. The movies took that to a new level, but you can’t underestimate how successful those movies were.

Like Spider-Man 2002 broke box office records in its opening weekend. It wasn’t just the most successful superhero movie ever, it was the most successful movie ever period. Then Spider-man 2 broke that record and Spider-Man 3 broke that record. 

Clearly these movies were connecting with people and the fact that older fans, newer fans (like me) and general audiences when praising the movies were bringing up similar points that’s a pretty obvious sign that what made the character appealing in the first place was present in the films and could still connect with everyone.

Further Spider-Man media has more often than not been successful. And it’s not just a Marvel thing either because Spider-Man is by far and away more successful than any other Marvel brand. Spidey merch outsells Batman and Iron Man merch combined and also outsells Avengers merch (That’s Hulk, BW, Thor, Cap and IM merch combined). 

Every time Marvel has launched an AU imprint like the Ultimate universe, 2099, or MC2 there is a reason they start with Spider-Man and there is a reason every other AU series they kick start in those universes rise and fall whilst the Spider series goes on for longer. People were more interested in reading Millenial Spider-Man, Spider-Man’s daughter and future Spider-Man much more than they were interested in reading Millenial X-Men, the Avengers’ kids or future Punisher.

So clearly he was connecting with people, even through the lens of a wacky concept superimposed over his core idea.

As for the rise of other publishers that’s not really got anything to do with Spider-Man. In fact IMAGE etc find success by being deliberately alternative and providing things not mainstream. But their success is miniscule compared to DC and Marvel collectively. Marvel cancels books if they move less than 20,000 units per issue but at Indie publisher’s that is considered okay.