#in general with non white dc characters but esp the dragon lady victims people really do not seem to care about

[roobylavender]

this is a general point but one thing i find to be really frustrating from non-talia fans is the automatic condescension and assumption of unintelligence as if talia fans are idiots who believe morrison is the only writer who has ever been racist to her and like we don't dwell on the issues in her writing across history wholesale because we tend to know it like the back of our hand. obv morrison is the most prevalent writer in talia discourse bc their work has been the most damning for her. there's no erasing what they did to her character bc dc will never erase damian's existence nor will they ever be willing to change his origins to account for her original characterization bc he's the more popular character by miles

but that's not to say that these discussions about other racist stereotypes and misogyny attributed to her portrayals from other writers aren't prevalent within talia fan circles. the above post is only one example of the assumptions made about her fans (although it's a common accusation) but i honestly find it quite laughable bc any talia fan who is dedicated to understanding her history and maintaining her character integrity is well aware that dixon's work on her in the 90s and early 00s is nothing short of terrible. it is her most prominent dragon lady portrayal prior to morrison's and you would be hard pressed to find a talia fan who actually enjoys any of those portrayals or believes they did her character any service. the thing op and so many others seem to ignore is that writers from tower of babel and onward more or less forgot about these arcs or talia's part in them bc her impact was so inconsequential. there's not even a hint of the talia who was power hungry to be her father's heir or sexually assaulted by bane in the portrayals written by waid and early 00s superman comics (although you can obv argue about whether ignorance of her trauma from the bane arc was a good thing). so ofc we don't complain about it as much bc it didn't have any long lasting effects on her character (unless you want to count her portrayal in the dark knight rises, but i think even that was egregious enough for the most wormbrained fans to recognize it was a disservice to her)

and i am always incredibly fascinated by the number of people who like to dress up the o'neil era the way op did bc it's an immediate tell for who's actually read her comics and who hasn't. there's certainly things to be said about the al ghuls and the fu manchu stereotypes o'neil and adams drew from to create the daddy-daughter duo, but no one who criticizes their holistic portrayals here ever seems to actually understand the nature of their crimes in this era or that this is perhaps the most tame ra's has ever been before writers in the 80s and 90s took his ecofascism to new heights. the ra's of the 70s is highly suspicious and wealthy and entitled, but most of his crimes are so vague and far flung they can't even be categorized as anything concrete. half the time he's fighting for control over the league more than he is actually making strides in ecofascism, which is what writers like mike w. barr more specifically dedicated themselves to portraying. it's also notable that one of the last stories o'neil wrote for the al ghuls in this era featured ra's and bruce cooperating to save the entire planet from a deadly chemical. ra's was an ecofascist at origins but very few people seem to understand or care that he was built with standards for himself and didn't believe in mass murdering humanity despite all of its crimes against the earth. that's a nuance that writers seem to have lost over the years and obv the every day batman fan isn't going to care about them lol

even beyond the ra's portrayal though it's interesting how talia gets tied so closely into his alleged "crimes" from this era bc unless her father is under threat or imprisoned talia doesn't play much of an active role in his criminal plotting at all. if anything that's a criticism talia fans have of o'neil's work bc while she's portrayed to be incredibly intelligent and possessive of a unique concept of loyalty, her role during this era doesn't really go beyond the bounds of henchwoman or on some occasions bystander. but the highlight of these portrayals is that in the rare moments that she is an active player, it's always to do the right thing and protect an innocent. talia is very staunchly anti murder and only inclined towards the act when people she cares about are threatened (like in her very first portrayal where she shot darrk to protect bruce, and even then, you can tell that murder wasn't her intent, and the man may have survived had he not fallen onto the train tracks; there is also her almost-murder of a man in daughter of the demon when she believes he's killed ra's, but once bruce tells her ra's is actually alive she relents. you can criticize her for that still if you're inclined to but the notable thing about it is that talia is not driven to murder as a prerogative unless extremes present themselves). o'neil explicitly designates her as a pacifist who is only chained to ra's out of a slavish devotion which other writers obv build on in later decades to help her ultimately evolve out of the role. but all too often non-talia fans take the bond girl ambience and surface matter of these stories to designate her as an entitled, heartless war criminal bc that's already the way they have of her from modern work, projected back onto work from the past. there's no room to see the nuances in her writing in earlier comics bc her future has already damned her

this is personally why i think paying attention to writers when building a concept of character history is so impt. swaths of issues get jumbled together to act as one conglomerate on a character but there's a plethora of nuances and shifts in tone and portrayal to notice when the work of different writers is distinguished from each other and analyzed. and that holds esp true for non-white characters whose trajectory can shift so suddenly bc of the biases of a writer

#talia al ghul #ra's al ghul #personal essays #well. i sacrificed going to school early to study for this. property reading i'll be leaving a measly ten minutes for you #but yeah lol this post in particular severely peeved me but it's also a general floating sentiment i have seen from a LOT of non talia fans #in general with non white dc characters but esp the dragon lady victims people really do not seem to care about #distinguishing their history at all. like it's all one broad brushstroke none of these people actually read each issue and differentiate #and it's like. BITCH. i have spent hours overanalyzing these issues more than you ever could have please sit down (derogatory)