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okay but reminder they hated this little guy enough to put his life up to a poll

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The Un-Made Batman Cartoon featuring Jason Todd as Robin

So I posted about this on twitter ages ago, but I felt the need to share it here too, since tumblr is a much better platform for archiving things.

There was an un-made Batman cartoon in the 1980s starring Bruce and Jason as Batman and Robin and the writer’s bible for it is available to read online.

It is literally the cutest thing I have ever read, and everyday I curse the gods that it didn’t get made. Here’s just a selection of the cuteness from this thing:

                                                        ~***~

                                                         ~***~

…and there’s way, way more but I don’t want this post getting really long. The whole thing can be read here: 

http://www.criticalblast.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_image_full_node/public/field/image/Batman%20Writers%20Bible.pdf

and I would absolutely recommend you do so. And please, make this a widely known thing in the fandom, so we can all collectively mourn its loss.

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Batgirls and their Robins

@allyallyorange drew these and gave me permission to post

Duke is one of Steph’s Robin’s because Steph is actually pretty metaphysically important to Duke’s stories. You could argue that Steph was the first We Are Robin kid in the sense that she was one of the first ‘normal gotham kids’ to just start fighting crime and she even made herself a home made Robin costume. Also the main antagonists of the We Are Robin kids were the Talons and the Court of Owls. You know the secret society that Steph’s father was able to uncover by himself and steal from and a Talon killed Arthur Brown. Also Robin War directly followed events from Batman Eternal which reintroduced Steph to the new 52

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i’m becoming a terrorist

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Hey y’all remember when Jason Todd’s backstory was that he and his family were a bunch of acrobats who lived in a circus and they were called “The Flying Todds”?

Y’all remember when the writers literally copy-pasted Dick’s backstory onto another kid and expected the readers to be chill with it??

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They should have made Jason’s death vote in-universe

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Hey y’all remember when Jason Todd’s backstory was that he and his family were a bunch of acrobats who lived in a circus and they were called “The Flying Todds”?

Y’all remember when the writers literally copy-pasted Dick’s backstory onto another kid and expected the readers to be chill with it??

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That's all, folks. Happy Batman Day.

Tʜᴇ Kɪʟʟɪɴɢ Vᴏᴛᴇ

Thirty-five years ago, DC Comics opened a phone poll to kill Batman's child sidekick, Robin.

The poll was open to paying callers in the U.S. and Canada for a window of 35 hours, starting on 15 September 1988 at 9AM EST. There were two premium-rate phone numbers—one for Robin's survival, and one for Robin's death. Each paying caller could call multiple times. The results were decided by a margin of 72 votes out of a total 10,614 votes—the difference was just under 0.68%.

Now you decide.

KILL ROBIN

Jerry Smith of Covington, Kentucky claims to have sold his Mercedes-Benz to pay for votes to kill Robin

"Who Killed Cock(y) Robin? I Killed Cock(y) Robin" article by Glen Weldon (2008)

"1-800-DEAD-ROBIN" autobiographical comic by Tony Wolf (2015)

"We killed Jason Todd" feature by Matt Markman (2021)

SAVE ROBIN

Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), a noted Bat-fan and scholar, denounced the episode as a "Roman gladiator-like readers vote."

"I loved him [...] I personally voted for him to live 100 times, and my mom flipped when she saw the phone bill," says magazine writer Savas Abadsidis.

MJG6 said: I was dead broke, working my way through college, but I voted. My first job was at a comic book store, making me an OG fan girl, I guess, and I encouraged people to vote to save him. [...] Because killing a teen, in a role kids are supposed to identify with, that was just sick.

Further Reading

"A Death in the Family, or: How DC Comics Let a Phone Vote Kill Robin" via r/HobbyDrama

"Living Dead Boy: Jason Todd vs. The Culture That Killed (and Resurrected) Him" on Women Write About Comics

"The Vote to Kill Robin" - trivia, misconceptions, opinions by comic-commentary

Some fan letter columns from Jason's later times as Robin

No Birds Allowed: Batman without Robin

"A lot like Robin if you close your eyes": Displacement of meaning in the Post-Modern Age by Mary Borsellino, an essay on dead Robins, sexism, and classism

🦞 The Tale of Larry the Lobster 🦞

Submitted arguments below:

Kill Robin

Anonymous propaganda IN FAVOR of killing the lobster the Robin!

I love Jason Todd. I love his post-crisis Robin days, I love his sense of justice and his adorable love of learning and his silly curly bangs! I say this to emphasize that I don't want him killed out of any dislike of the character.

I want him dead out of a love for storytelling that gets to stick to its guns and doesn't pull its punches. In context of the poll we readers have just seen Dick Grayson get kicked out of the role due to Bruce's fear of him getting hurt, then he turns around and gets a new Robin anyways because he misses him! I really like that Bruce is being messy and hypocritical! Let that have some real consequences please!

If there were no real consequences then Dick got shoved out of being Robin for what? Hairbrained overprotective worry? Why even change the way he graduated into being Nightwing so much then or heck why even kick him out in the first place?

One might argue that we haven't even given this Robin proper time to develop, that instead he might be taken in new and interesting directions as his own unique Robin shaping the mantle into a legacy rather than just something that was Dick's. I admit this is a very good point, and we are cutting off some possible interesting avenues. As I mentioned, I do like this character! But are we really going to get that?

If DC is already prepared to toss him out of this mortal coil and through the pearly gates after such a short while, do we really think we're going to get much more love and care applied to him?

I say let's roll the dice for something new! May the comics world and all these characters have to deal with the ramifications for many years to come!

Save Robin

robin’s death (and subsequent resurrection) is, frankly, an insult to robin fans of that era. to want to see this child get killed in a brutal manner for no apparent reason, to see jason essentially removed from the narrative so batman could go back to being gritty and depressed—this is awful to me. he hadn’t even been robin for very long!

but that’s not why he should’ve lived.

the resurrection of jason todd as the red hood was narratively interesting enough that it kept most fans of the original jason hooked, and it still does! he has become a prime example of a trauma survivor: his death changed him, and those who loved him have difficulty accepting that.

but there is no resolution to that story, nor was there a resolution to jason’s tenure as robin. dick chose to leave robin behind and take on a new mantle. tim, steph, both had robin taken away from them (and let’s forget about how tim is still robin, because that doesn’t matter right now). damian’s role as robin conflicts with his misconception of his role in the family. everyone else has had an ending, and jason’s death…well. after his resurrection, he has somehow remained stagnant and wildly inconsistent at the same time. this applies to under the red hood too.

at its core, utrh is a deeply classist retelling of jason’s life pre-death in the family. winick makes him a villain—albeit a sympathetic one—who fucks over or kills people that he would’ve thrown himself in front of to save as robin. in utrh, the implication is that jason had always been violent and angry (and morally compromised), and that he was destined to become worse.

it sometimes feels that jason’s transition into being the red hood (and all the characterization that comes with that) was a decision dc made for shock value. just from jason’s robin run, it’s difficult to imagine jason becoming the red hood. it doesn’t feel inevitable. it’s tragic.

ultimately, i believe that jason never should have died, and that his death was a stunt by dc for its shock value. jim starlin wanted jason dead because to him a child sidekick, in a medium that was originally made for children, was “sheer insanity”. he was fridged, plain and simple.

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Tʜᴇ Kɪʟʟɪɴɢ Vᴏᴛᴇ sends happy birthday wishes to all the September 15-16 babies.

#Jason Todd #thekillingvote #DC Robin #blood CW #child murder CW #violence CW #murder CW

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Too Dangerous for Kids

So, recently I had reason to go back and read Jason's post-crisis debut comic Batman (1940) #408 and it clicked really hard that basically the central theme of Jason becoming Robin was that Robin was too dangerous a job for kids. Before he becomes Robin, Dick got injured, badly, by the Joker, and Batman swore to never endanger another child like that, which is the reason Dick stops being Robin at all

Batman (1940) #416

And I'm friggin realizing now that the posing in Death of the Family is straight up a mirror to this scene of Dick having been shot?? I'm losing my mind???

Batman (1940) #408

Like, look at this in universe magazine shot with this talk on the radio compared to Bruce holding Jason and tell me this was not deliberate????

Batman (1940) #408 and Batman (1940) #428

And THIS TALK?????

Batman (1940) #408

I just... HMMMM, idk there's something very fascinating to me that the theme of 'this is too dangerous for kids' has been there in Jason since day zero.

It also makes me sympathize a lot with poor Dick who got fired "cause it's too dangerous for a kiddo out there", when he was no longer a child, and then WHAT DOES BRUCE HAVE WITH HIM NOT EVEN A YEAR LATER?!

Batman (1940) #416

He's devastated by the realization there's a new Robin, then harsh and critical of the new Robin because he's sure they're gonna screw up and get hurt

Batman (1940) #416

Not because he wants his old job back

Batman (1940) #416

Despite his misgiving about the mantel being passed on at all, at the end of it, he still gives Jason his respect and acceptance into the role

Teen Titans (2003) #29

And this has such fascinating parallels to Jason's reaction to finding out there's a new Robin after him!

Red Hood: The Lost Days #4

He is devastated by the realization there's a new Robin, then attempts to brutally dissuade the new Robin from keeping the mantel because he's sure they're gonna screw up and get killed

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Not because he wants his old job back

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Despite his misgiving about the mantel being passed on at all, at the end of it, Tim still has his respect, and perhaps even his acceptance into the role, although he was far too violent about it to actually properly give the role over like Dick did for him.

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Neither of them have a petty, jealous reaction of you replaced me, but instead have a tangled mess of "I was sloppy, I wasn't good enough, I got hurt, and now you put an even less prepared child in the line of fire?!" Jason is wildly more violent about it, but at the core I feel like the sentiments are the same, and it kinda makes sense because really the end of their times as Robin were very similar to each other, just Jason's was wildly more violent!

I can't help but wonder if maybe part of Jason's reasoning somewhere along the line was "Now I finally get why Dick was so harsh on me back then." And... honestly I don't think it is. Cause while it would make sense it just doesn't seem to be a parallel either of them is conscious of.

It's just this fascinating set of reflections neither one seems to see.

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#The poll to kill Jason Todd (colorized)

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hey luka! its been bugging me for a while now, but i want to ask; do you think jason pushed felipe? i really feel like he would never have but the way the panels were placed just makes it seem so unlikely

Hey anon! \o/

Starlin (writer) says he did. O’Neill (editor) says he didn’t, but wanted readers to decide for themselves. I don’t think I’ve answered this question before, because I tend to focus on Jason’s relationship with Gloria rather than with Felipe.

We already knew from Jason’s encounter with Charlie the pimp that he seriously considered killing as an option, and may have gone through with it if Bruce hadn’t intervened. In that instance, Jason had “merely” seen a prostitute get smacked around. This time, he’d heard Gloria scream at the station and seen her hanging from her ceiling just moments before (which affected him enough that he couldn’t even stand). That latter is far more likely to incite murderous rage. I do believe that Jason approached Felipe with the intent to kill him.

Even if Jason hadn’t shoved Felipe, he’d made no effort to help him. Depending on the ethical system that you follow, that may be just as bad as directly shoving Felipe off the building. 

However, we know from a previous encounter that Felipe was terrified of Jason, so him just getting spooked and falling off the ledge isn’t unreasonable.   

Basically, both options are theoretically possible, and in either case, Jason approached with intent to kill, which I think is the most important aspect. 

Considering that Starlin is the writer, making this his story, his opinion should be weighed more heavily than O’Neill’s. Word of God says that Jason pushed Felipe. I could end this post here, honestly.

Also, it seems unlikely for Felipe to have fallen over the railing on his own according to the panels themselves, as you mentioned. If Felipe had slipped backward over the railing, then wouldn’t Jason have been looking over the side rather than forward?

What it comes down to for me is Jason’s behavior afterward. In this very issue, Jason can’t hold Bruce’s gaze as he’s giving his answer, which implies some degree of culpability. In the following issue, Bruce clarifies that Jason was looking down coldly at Felipe as he fell, so we know that Jason wasn’t upset that Felipe was dead. At the beginning of that issue, Jason doesn’t seem disturbed or anything–he’s just happily eating breakfast. Towards the end, Bruce explains that this fight that ended many lives was because of Felipe’s death, and Jason does seem somewhat guilty. In the issue after that, Jason displays suicidal behavior that concerns Bruce enough to bench him. 

Honestly, I don’t think Jason would feel guilty if he’d just watched Felipe fall–at least, not enough for it to be visible. To me, all this suggests that he did shove Felipe. 

Basically, Word of God says yes, O’Neill says no, and the comic itself seems to lean toward implying yes. However, it was purposefully left open to interpretation, so you can choose whichever you think makes the most sense!

#Gloria Stanson case #Jim Starlin

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September 7, 1988

LOS ANGELES -- "Holy voting booth, Batman! Our readers are killing me!"

Batman's faithful sidekick Robin has reason to be concerned. Fans of Batman comic books could give the Boy Wonder a collective thumbs down when they have a chance to vote on his fate during an upcoming cliffhanger.

Will Robin live, or will he go to the big Bat Cave in the sky? Readers of the DC Comics publication will decide Sept. 15 and 16 by calling a special 900 telephone number.

It is the first time this interactive concept will be used to determine the course of a series, said Peggy May, a DC Comics spokeswoman.

According to Dennis O'Neil, editor of "Batman," the readers' decision will be incorporated in issue No. 428, which should appear in comic book stores in late October.

Issue No. 427 ends with Robin caught in a warehouse that is blown up by the Joker, a recurring villain in the Batman saga. Two versions -- one in which Robin perishes in the explosion -- have been written.

"We're just waiting to see which one fans want us to use," O'Neil said.

If readers decide to doff Robin, it might indicate that fans didn't care for Batman's sidekick choice a few years ago.

The original Robin (a k a Dick Grayson) and Batman had a falling-out several years ago. That Robin stormed off, changed his name to Nightwing and started fighting crime with some other superheroes.

The Caped Crusader went solo for a while until a street-wise orphan named Jason Todd stole the wheels off the Batmobile.

The kid's spunk caught Batman's attention, and he became the new Robin.

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#thekillingvote #DC Robin

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#thekillingvote #DC Robin #Jason Todd

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hey luka! its been bugging me for a while now, but i want to ask; do you think jason pushed felipe? i really feel like he would never have but the way the panels were placed just makes it seem so unlikely

Hey anon! \o/

Starlin (writer) says he did. O’Neill (editor) says he didn’t, but wanted readers to decide for themselves. I don’t think I’ve answered this question before, because I tend to focus on Jason’s relationship with Gloria rather than with Felipe.

We already knew from Jason’s encounter with Charlie the pimp that he seriously considered killing as an option, and may have gone through with it if Bruce hadn’t intervened. In that instance, Jason had “merely” seen a prostitute get smacked around. This time, he’d heard Gloria scream at the station and seen her hanging from her ceiling just moments before (which affected him enough that he couldn’t even stand). That latter is far more likely to incite murderous rage. I do believe that Jason approached Felipe with the intent to kill him.

Even if Jason hadn’t shoved Felipe, he’d made no effort to help him. Depending on the ethical system that you follow, that may be just as bad as directly shoving Felipe off the building. 

However, we know from a previous encounter that Felipe was terrified of Jason, so him just getting spooked and falling off the ledge isn’t unreasonable.   

Basically, both options are theoretically possible, and in either case, Jason approached with intent to kill, which I think is the most important aspect. 

Considering that Starlin is the writer, making this his story, his opinion should be weighed more heavily than O’Neill’s. Word of God says that Jason pushed Felipe. I could end this post here, honestly.

Also, it seems unlikely for Felipe to have fallen over the railing on his own according to the panels themselves, as you mentioned. If Felipe had slipped backward over the railing, then wouldn’t Jason have been looking over the side rather than forward?

What it comes down to for me is Jason’s behavior afterward. In this very issue, Jason can’t hold Bruce’s gaze as he’s giving his answer, which implies some degree of culpability. In the following issue, Bruce clarifies that Jason was looking down coldly at Felipe as he fell, so we know that Jason wasn’t upset that Felipe was dead. At the beginning of that issue, Jason doesn’t seem disturbed or anything–he’s just happily eating breakfast. Towards the end, Bruce explains that this fight that ended many lives was because of Felipe’s death, and Jason does seem somewhat guilty. In the issue after that, Jason displays suicidal behavior that concerns Bruce enough to bench him. 

Honestly, I don’t think Jason would feel guilty if he’d just watched Felipe fall–at least, not enough for it to be visible. To me, all this suggests that he did shove Felipe. 

Basically, Word of God says yes, O’Neill says no, and the comic itself seems to lean toward implying yes. However, it was purposefully left open to interpretation, so you can choose whichever you think makes the most sense!

#Gloria Stanson case #Jim Starlin #Dennis O'Neil

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some people read jay’s robin comics with such an intense focus on every possible sign of his impending moral failure— ok calm down post-crisis bruce wayne?