That's such a good point. There’s also the fact that their both involved with Phoenix but Krisnix is super popular as a toxic ship while I've seen almost zero Phoenix x Dahlia. I haven't played Apollo Justice but Kristoph and Dahlia have so many parallels that this disparity in the fandom is insane to me (poison? manipulator? manipulates a sibling to do their dirty work? polite/pleasant facade?).
Dahlia has so much potential that's literally right there in canon, why are we ignoring it?
god remind me one day to go on like. a proper rant about how people in the fandom treat dahlia vs how they treat kristoph. kristoph is seen as some mastermind who has some deep secret trauma because it’s vaguely hinted at while we KNOW for a fact that dahlia definitely has a fuckton of trauma between what we see in the flashback case and just, her involvement in the fey family in general but especially how she specifically was treated but????? nobody fucking cares??? like sure she’s not justified but neither is kristoph and i’ve still seen people arguing that he is. he’s so babygirlified by the fandom and i fucking hate it. people are tagging him in posts about evil WOMEN. dahlia is RIGHT. THERE. like my fault for expecting people to give basic respect to women but good fucking lird i could not make this kind of shit up if i tried you people are ridiculous
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What I really want is a case where Phoenix's client is truly guilty of the crime they’re being accused of and there isn’t anyone blackmailing him to get an acquittal.
Farewell My Turnabout is the only case where a guilty verdict is the good ending and the only case that challenged Phoenix’s entire worldview. (Correct me if I'm wrong though because I haven't played the Apollo Justice trilogy). I wouldn't change anything about that case but I still think another case could have been taken further. Because 2-4, at the end of the day, is still about saving someone; it's about the value of trust and partnership in fighting for the truth because that is what will save someone.
But I want a case where there really isn’t anyone who can be or needs to be saved. Phoenix’s client is guilty, and there are no kidnapped loved ones or anyone forcing him to get a verdict either way. Even better if the defendant is a sympathetic killer like Acro. And there is no huge impossible decision/moral dilemma about who to save, it’s just realizing that doing the right thing means accepting a loss.
I always found it ironic that Edgeworth taking a loss in the name of truth is seen as an important sign of his redemption, but Phoenix almost never does the same thing. I know Phoenix gets to choose his cases and Miles doesn't but it just seems kind of hypocritical to me.
And I still want the case to have a happy ending because Phoenix still helped his client by giving them a proper defense. I don’t want Phoenix to come out of this demoralized. I just really need a case to finally hammer home to Phoenix that he should not be hinging his entire worth and motivation for being a defense attorney on if he can save people (because clearly 2-4 did not do that).
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Oh 100% Phoenix has major abandonment issues and a massive savior complex. He isn’t a defense attorney for himself, and he probably has little to no identity outside of it.
Comparing Phoenix’s issues to Adrian Andrews’ “dependent nature” is quite fitting really. The parallels between them are so interesting.
They both obsessed with someone close to them and modeled part of their career after them (Adrian acting like Celeste as a manager, Phoenix becoming a lawyer to save Edgeworth). They are both devastated when said person leaves them. They both forsake the truth because they are too dependent on someone else (Adrian forging evidence and Phoenix trying to get Engarde acquitted). And at the end of 2-4 they are both saved by the truth (when Edgeworth shows them the meaning of trust and finding the truth).
the more I think about phoenix wright the more convinced I am of how deeply fucked up he is
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One core trait of Phoenix Wright as a character that I rarely see discussed is how utterly evasive he is about his private affairs. It sticks out the most in AA4 when we see Phoenix from the outside, but "Phoenix won't tell anyone anything important unless he absolutely has to (and even then, he probably won't)" is by no means a new development for him.
From AA1 onwards, we see Phoenix dodge people's questions about his personal life time and time again. In part, this is by narrative necessity - Phoenix knows more than the player is meant to know in order to achieve the optimal tension curve. But AA takes his narrative shortcut and turns it into a real character beat.
Phoenix Wright is the most cagey fucker on the planet.
At the end of 1-1 Mia asks him how he came to befriend Larry and Phoenix dodges the question with a vague promise to tell her later - this also means that in all of his time working with Mia, he's never actually disclosed his full motivation for becoming a lawyer to her.
In 1-2, Maya asks him how he knows Edgeworth and he dodges, because of course he does. The same song and dance repeats at the end of 1-3. And despite Maya's repeated prodding by 1-4, Phoenix still has not told her a thing about his past. That's from October until December that Maya is left going ??? and her questions go nowhere.
Then, between AA1 and AA2, Edgeworth is presumed dead by suicide. Does Phoenix tell Maya about this? Absolutely not. He does not tell her in letters nor is he clear about it when they see each other again in person, months later.
What Maya gets once it's inevitable to talk is a vague 'he's gone' and no elaboration other than the request to not speak about him again.
This is Phoenix's default coping mechanism.
In AA3, there are numerous instances where he mentions forgetting Dahlia, not speaking her name again, etc. Edgeworth is 100% getting the 'person who hurt me too deeply to think about' treatment here.
But to not even tell Maya a vague overview on the matter, when Maya knew him too? Rough. And it just keeps going.
It's six months between telling Maya that Edgeworth is 'gone' in 2-2 and her finding out that 'gone' seemingly means' dead' in 2-3.
Maya complains about it, too. This isn't a matter of 'she never asked again', it's a matter of 'Phoenix is dodging all questions'. Gumshoe has to intervene in order for Maya to finally find out.
And finally in 3-5, does he tell anybody why he's going to Hazakura temple and why he seems interested in Iris? Absolutely not!
At this point we get Edgeworth openly acknowledging that Phoenix keeps his emotional cards extremely closely to the chest. When he states that he wants confirmation on whether or not he has met Iris before, this exchange happens:
Even as Edgeworth directly calls him out on being evasive and never actually speaking to people, all Phoenix can do is acknowledge that this is how he is by apologizing - but he won't change his ways.
AA4 Phoenix is really just a natural evolution of Trilogy Phoenix - Trilogy Phoenix is already evasive, already hates telling people about his struggles or accepting help... It's really no wonder that he'd isolate himself instead of reaching out once he gets disbarred.
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mine are:
I told my partner that Phoenix went to law school for Miles, and she was immediately like: omg stalker???
I showed my irl friend fanart of Miles smirking and she immediately pulled up a picture of Sasuke smirking (I have not watched Naruto).
I showed another irl friend Miles' dismayed courtroom sprite (the one below), and now she does it whenever she's mildly annoyed at something.
ace attorney fans: what are some of the funniest ways your offline friends have reacted to seeing you play ace attorney?
mine are:
1. my partner at the time shouting "HE'S 23?!?!" and going through all 5 stages of grief upon learning that aa1 miles edgeworth is not, in fact, in his 40s
2. i showed my IRL bestie kristoph gavin and mentioned he was a villain. without skipping a beat they said "well of course he's a villain. he's blonde"
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I love this so much oh my god, why is Mia Fey so neglected sometimes in this fandom. You've given me a lot to think about, thank you.
I noticed Mia's bitterness when I played through 3-1 for the first time. She is so brutal in insulting Phoenix. And she reacts quite strongly when she finds out Phoenix had been lying on the witness stand.
The fact that both Mia and Phoenix react very poorly to betrayal or to what they think is betrayal... I need to personally analyze all of this under a microscope.
"Of course she told him to fake his smile, or he can't do anything. She's been doing that since she was ten years old." I'm sobbing.
Is it just me or is this piece of advice from Mia, "for a lawyer, the worst of times are when you have to force your biggest smiles", really sad?
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently sad about it. I get that it's about not giving up, pushing through impossible odds and rock bottom for your client. Because for most people, being a lawyer is a just a profession.
But for someone like Phoenix? Someone who hides their pain behind saving others, who never talks about their trauma, who (subconsciously or not) considers being a lawyer not just a job but their entire identity...?
All of a sudden, Mia's advice isn't just about the courtroom anymore, because for Phoenix being a lawyer was always about being good enough and able to save people. To Phoenix, Mia's advice is about pretending you're fine, not letting anyone see how you truly feel or else you can't save anyone.
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"#no no i do much mia meta and she meant it exactly like that#phoenix heard her exactly the way she meant#and that's why they're both so angsty" <-- pasting the tags of someone who reblogged my post because omg thank you
I always had this Feeling that there is so much more to Mia Fey than meets the eye. But I was always like: okay, we'll cross that bridge when we get there (aka after I lose my mind analyzing Phoenix, Miles, and Franziska).
Honestly that piece of advice from Mia is what tipped me off first, because I was like: are you telling someone to like, ignore their emotions? hmm suspicious.
And in Reunion and Turnabout, Mia started protecting Morgan? We literally had to break her psyche-locks.
Also in Farewell My Turnabout, Mia seems to be just as suspicious and distrusting of Edgeworth as Phoenix is? But at the end she goes: so now do you know what being a defense attorney means? ... Mia, I swear YOU didn't get it either until Edgeworth showed both you and Phoenix.
These are just observations, I really need to comb through this and properly analyze Mia Fey because gosh. (And I need to finish playing T&T).
Is it just me or is this piece of advice from Mia, "for a lawyer, the worst of times are when you have to force your biggest smiles", really sad?
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently sad about it. I get that it's about not giving up, pushing through impossible odds and rock bottom for your client. Because for most people, being a lawyer is a just a profession.
But for someone like Phoenix? Someone who hides their pain behind saving others, who never talks about their trauma, who (subconsciously or not) considers being a lawyer not just a job but their entire identity...?
All of a sudden, Mia's advice isn't just about the courtroom anymore, because for Phoenix being a lawyer was always about being good enough and able to save people. To Phoenix, Mia's advice is about pretending you're fine, not letting anyone see how you truly feel or else you can't save anyone.
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Is it just me or is this piece of advice from Mia, "for a lawyer, the worst of times are when you have to force your biggest smiles", really sad?
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently sad about it. I get that it's about not giving up, pushing through impossible odds and rock bottom for your client. Because for most people, being a lawyer is a just a profession.
But for someone like Phoenix? Someone who hides their pain behind saving others, who never talks about their trauma, who (subconsciously or not) considers being a lawyer not just a job but their entire identity...?
All of a sudden, Mia's advice isn't just about the courtroom anymore, because for Phoenix being a lawyer was always about being good enough and able to save people. To Phoenix, Mia's advice is about pretending you're fine, not letting anyone see how you truly feel or else you can't save anyone.
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Phoenix believes in people but he doesn't trust them, oh my god you're so right. I think it's more so that he believes in the ideal, rather than the person themselves, at least as time goes on or for people he doesn't know well. The ideal of being an attorney, the ideal that people need to be saved.
I think what I love the most about AA is that characters have a duality to them that I don't see often in media. They have actual flaws and do actual bad things, and it's not glossed over.
Phoenix is a fundamentally good person, he helps people at the drop of a hat, risks his life for them. Has a penchant for taking strays under his wing. He believes in people... but also not really. He carries a literal lie detector with him at all times, and only employs people who can also peer into other people's hearts. So is he really that trusting? Sure he trusts his clients are innocent, but he doesn't trust they will tell him the truth at all (there's always something to lie about). He believes himself naive, and that's why he works extra hard not to be. Some people think he changed with his disbarment but I feel like when he actually changed was after Dahlia. He became less and less trusting as time went on.
And Phoenix actually does forge evidence and risks his subordinate's career, and he says pretty nasty things sometimes (that one time to Edgeworth had got to hurt, badly, especially if you consider that the note could have been genuine at first, which we don't know for sure), has a pretty tactless and somewhat hurtful sense of humor, brings his daughter to cheat at poker, and doesn't tell said daughter she actually has some family left alive.
He's secretive, elusive and cryptic, and masks it under a false pretence of goofiness.
Miles is, by contrast, very easy to read. He may appear emotionally stunted but is one of the more emphathetic characters. He realizes when he's wrong and immediately needs to correct those wrongs. He grows uneasy and uncertain and eventually recognizes when he's mistaken. By the end of it he begins to help people naturally, without even thinking about it as much as he would have in the past. He helps so many people, he has basically got Phoenix's savior complex 2.0 but the healthy kind where he doesn't jump off a bridge.
But... he was also actually cruel, and did send innocent people to their graves (was he really so naive to believe whichever defendant came his way was guilty?). He feigned his death disregarding other people's feelings, and while you could say he had no obligation towards Phoenix (apart from basic decency and respect towards someone who had turned his life around to save him), he still abandoned Franziska, who was still just a kid and had just discovered her father was a psychopath. She probably thought, at some point, that the apple didn't fall that far from the tree. That's it's somehow her fault as well.
He may be rude and antagonistic, frank to a fault. Isn't afraid of telling stuff to your face. But he also cares about the people he loves so much, to the point he doesn't hesitate to risk his career and break the law multiple times. He may appear a pessimist but he's pretty idealistic at heart, it's quite funny that his favourite show is about an hero of justice, isn't it?
Godot is... well, we don't know much about it from before his coma, but he definitely shared Mia's sentiments for helping people in their hour of need. But when he wakes from a 6-year coma he's so broken that he just pins the blame on the most absurd person to blame it on, settles on a complicated plan, and also prosecutes on that particular murder he should just confess upon.
Iris was sweet, innocent, self-sacrificing. She knew absolutely nothing about the world apart from what Bikini or her sister told her. She was naive and falsely thought she could fix everything, that her sister was salvageable, that she could save Phoenix.
But she still ended up lying to the person she loved and abetting a murder.
That's why I love these characters so much. They're interesting and their stories make sense. People don't remain unchanged from what happens to them. People are multi-faceted and complex. You can't sum them up in a bunch of characteristics and aspect them to act on every single one of them, always, consistently. Sometimes people break. They make mistakes they regret, ...and some they don't.
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This!! I do get why slow burn wrightworth is so popular and I personally prefer them getting together right after the events of AA3 (Miles being there for Phoenix during disbarment is a NEED okay?), but I totally get this. Sometimes two less than healthy people getting together will end in ruin but what about hope? What about the fact that you don’t need to be fully healed to be loved? What about communication and trust and working together and finding the truth? They clash but also fit perfectly in court, so why not in their personal lives too?
And gosh, Farewell My Turnabout would hit so much harder if they were together in the trilogy (and by that, OP, I assume you mean all three games). “We aren’t some sort of heroes. We’re only human, you and I”— Love does not “save someone”, it does not fix everything but that doesn’t mean you should stop fighting.
Hell, all of Justice for All would hit so much harder. Now Franziska has more reason to believe Phoenix “killed” Miles. Now Franziska’s deep hurt disguised as a desire for vengeance has a whole new layer of pain: your foolish love killed my little brother, so I cannot show that I love him. I must fight him and I must win and then he will never leave me behind again.
And when Phoenix says “I decided that the Miles Edgeworth I knew had died… At least, that’s what I told myself”, it would hurt even more because the Edgeworth he knew wouldn’t have abandoned him, and the Edgeworth he knew would have been saved by his love.
(Side note, everything I said about JFA I believe to be true for canon as well. It would just be amplified and more heartbreaking if narumitsu were together during the original trilogy)
Also it is so hard to find fanfics with this concept but this is the closest I’ve found, enjoy! (We need more fanfics with this premise please)
I Turn To You (For My Comfort) Phoenix and Miles get together post Turnabout Goodbyes
if i woke up (next to you) Phoenix and Miles get together post Farewell My Turnabout
Turnabout Groceries and it’s sequel Home for (Almost) Christmas (which is not finished currently) AU where Phoenix and Miles adopt Trudy and Kay respectively before the events of the first game and narumitsu get together post Turnabout Samurai
Wow this is such a long reblog but OP you truly inspired me.
I can certainly see why people are obsessed about the slow burn reading of narumitsu, the one where they wait for 7, 9 or even more years before they ever do anything romantic together, but. Their relationship in the trilogy era could be so, so interesting and complicated and yet so. Warm and full of comfort.
Just... Two traumatized and mentally ill men trying their best to figure out this relationship thing. Phoenix remembering what it's like to have a romantic partner again, after being betrayed, after being left behind, and now confronting his abandonment issues. Edgeworth learning how to love somebody, and now trying to express it, perhaps searching for his own ways of doing so.
Yes, they encounter a number of problems. Edgeworth gets this nagging feeling at times that he's too broken for a romantic relationship, that he's a parasite leaching on another person's care and affection, thus at times he acts aloof and withdrawn. Phoenix gets paranoid that he'll end up completely alone again very soon, whenever he notices Edgeworth getting so cold all of a sudden. Edgeworth genuinely thinks at the worst moments that the right thing to do is to just break up right now so he doesn't waste any more of Phoenix' time. Phoenix is anxious that one day Edgeworth can just disappear on him again without saying a word. Edgeworth feels forever indebted for everything Phoenix did to help him, and now when he notices his partner struggling he wants to do the same for him, but he doesn't even know why Phoenix is troubled, and even less about how to help him. Phoenix is less than honest sometimes on how he feels because he really thinks that his problems are nothing compared to Edgeworth's, but he can't help but feel bitter nevertheless that his partner isn't that helping. And then feels like a petty person for that bitterness and knows that he can't be actually cross at Edgeworth for not being a mind-reader. If truth be told, they both think that the other "has it worse", so they both make the same mistake of not opening up fully until something not very good occurs.
"But why didn't you tell me anything??" They both ask each other. Often. But the important thing is, is that they get to ask that eventually. Say sorry to each other. And then move on knowing each other a little bit better, and maybe not repeating the same mistake in the future. At least, the chances are lower now.
Would it be unhealthy for them to be together in that era? Well, depends on your definition of the word 'unhealthy', but I'm a firm believer that it's better to figure out things together, with your loved one, and that's what they are doing. Healing goes much smoother when you have mutual support. And sometimes hurt people can understand and help other hurt people better than any 'healthy' person can. You are in pain, and I'm also in pain, so I understand how you feel and want to help you get through this. It's all about trust and empathy. And isn't it the core of narumitsu and their relationship?
So basically, while it takes a lot of work for them to be together at this point, it is worthwhile. And that is why I prefer the interpretation that they have something going on already in the trilogy. I really want them to struggle, but make it work. I want their relationship to begin not in the best possible moment, perhaps, but to grow more comfortable and mature with years regardless. It is not ideal and far from the perfection, and that is exactly why it's so real and beautiful.
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Miles Edgeworth is both extremely perceptive about other people’s intentions and motivations, but also terrible at understanding how his own actions affect others. It’s quite an interesting nuance that I think is often overlooked.
When Edgeworth returns in 2-4, he is already aware of what Phoenix is lacking as an attorney before he even knows the full extent of Phoenix's crisis (Maya being kidnapped). In their first conversation, Edgeworth says: "In order to understand this case, you have to understand a certain "truth"". He knows that Phoenix's current motivation for being a defense attorney is flawed (cue his "we are not heroes" line). However, at the same time Edgeworth doesn’t fully understand how his actions of disappearing have affected both Phoenix and Franziska.
Another very obvious example of this is in AAI (I think?). In response to Kay asking: “Have you guys not decided if you are going out, or is it just one sided?” Edgeworth says: “‘Decided’…? Shouldn’t the parties involved naturally just know…?” Edgeworth thinks people in a relationship should instinctively perceive the feelings of the other person without communicating. He doesn’t consider the possibilities of misinterpretation or misunderstanding.
So in the context of Wrightworth, essentially what I'm saying is that unless something like fear is holding him back, Miles definitely knows about Phoenix's feelings. It's Phoenix who's off somewhere deluding himself.
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Why are my favorite ships always:
Different but in the way that they make perfect partners and achieve so much together. Believing in each other when it seems like no one else does. Different and despite that, they understand each other until they completely don't. Some kind of betrayal and at least one of them has abandonment issues. So much emotional constipation and painful pining. Childhood friends to [insert decades long mess here] to finally, finally lovers. "My heart has always been yours. Even when I hated you. Even when there was so much distance between us I thought we'd never pull through. There's no one else in this world for me. So, yes it's you, it's always been you".
And the only two that have qualified so far are Wrightworth (Phoenix + Miles from Ace Attorney) and Baavira (Baatar Jr + Kuvira from Legend of Korra). I love how Wrightworth's partnership led them to find the truth and redeem each other, while Baavira's led them to create a dictatorship and commit war crimes.
If you have any more examples of ships that fit, please let me know.
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(tw: mention of suicide)
Did we, as a fandom, just collectively forget how ruthless Miles Edgeworth can be sometimes? And I’m not just talking about his demon prosecutor era, I mean also after his redemption arc. Because I was just playing through Farewell My Turnabout and watching him reveal Adrian Andrews attempted suicide in court after she begged both him and Phoenix not to… I was sitting there with my mouth open thinking: damn Edgeworth, was that really necessary??
And you know what, I love it. I love how he was ruthless in getting a guilty verdict in the past, and now he uses that ruthlessness to find the truth. Because I'm not just here for the traumatized, socially awkward, emotionally constipated, caring Edgeworth. I'm also here for the ruthless, intimidating, competent, morally grey Edgeworth. I'm not here for a watered-down version of Edgeworth. He wouldn't be my favorite character if he didn't have this nuance.
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Thinking about AA role-swap AUs and if prosecutor Phoenix Wright would also “choose death” and then I remembered that in Farewell My Turnabout, Phoenix tells Edgeworth it might be time for "Defense Attorney Phoenix Wright chooses death". In the bad ending where Matt Engarde is declared "not guilty", Phoenix literally wanders the streets. Before I played this case, I thought Maya dies in the bad ending which prompts this reaction, but no he doesn't even see Maya again.
The more I look at canon, the more I realize Phoenix is as much of an emotional mess as Miles is, likely even worse. Phoenix's identity has always been so tied to being a lawyer, to saving people. He condemns one innocent person (Adrian Andrews) and he completely falls apart. And honestly, the same would probably happen if he got Matt Engarde "guilty" and Maya dies. Of course prosecutor Phoenix Wright would leave like Miles did.
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I'm so tired of hearing that Phoenix saved Miles without hearing about any of its implications.
Because Phoenix's savior complex is a major problem not a solution. Because Wrightworth is not about Phoenix saving Miles, it's about them saving each other. Because in Farewell My Turnabout, Miles Edgeworth said "We aren't some sort of heroes. We're only human." and he was right.
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You know one thing that I absolutely hate? When one recurring joke about a character overshadows their trauma and complexity. I hate when characters are treated unseriously and frankly disrespected because of one meme or gimmick that is probably massively overused anyway. And why is it always video game characters.
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