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craziigamerchick · 4 years

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My Prediction: Grace is Alive

Unpopular opinion here I know. I know SK said she was dead and she may very well be but till I see REAL ghost Grace, her funeral, or a flashback to her dead body then nope I won’t believe it.

I didn’t actually believe she was alive till after the 5th season. But down below I’ll list the signs I’ve seen throughout the show that I think point to her not really being dead.

Grace is all over season 5 but the signs I’ve seen that point to her not being dead are in episode 4 and 5.

For starters the swans represent Grace this season as told in an article from Den of Geek. Which is a big theme for episode 4.

So episode 4 is called The Loop and there are quite of bit of things that are repeating in this episode from previous seasons. Actually I’d say this whole season feels like a loop. But anyways for the Grace clues...

We have only 2 scenes this season in the Garrison snug which are both in this episode back to back. This is also where the swans are present. So we are to be thinking of Grace during these scenes.

The first scene is with Mrs.Conners, she is there because her 3 songbirds (goldfinch’s) were killed by her husband. Now I believe the songbird represents Grace along with the swan. As she’s already been linked to the blackbird in s3 and s4 which is also a songbird. Plus one definition of songbird is: a female singer, which she is. When Mrs.Conner says “their singing was the only pretty thing in my life” it focuses on Tommy and the swans to the side of him. I’m sure he thinks the same of Grace and her singing.

Now I also think songbirds represent the Shelby’s in general or at least Goldfinch’s do. Mosley talks of Tommy being a songbird and his singing beautifully in the house and in that same scene he calls Ada a finch. Then when Tommy tells Mrs.Conner Arthur will go get her 3 new Goldfinch’s she says she’ll name them Tommy, Arthur, and Finn. So that’s all 4 siblings being linked to a finch.

Mrs.Conner leaves and here comes Brilliant Chang. Now don’t forget this happens in the room with the swans that represent Grace.

Shows Chang sitting down right where the swan is unlike Mrs.Conners. We really didn’t see the swan behind her because it wasn’t important. But I believe we saw Chang sit right where the swan was because we are to link him specifically to Grace. Just check out this dialogue:

Chang: My name is Brilliant Chang

Arthur: Brilliant Chang is dead

Chang: Perhaps. Sometimes, I wonder... Is this heaven? Doesn’t smell like heaven. So I would say I have survived.

Now that might not seem like a big deal but the real Brilliant Chang got deported in 1924 and was never thought to be dead (the year here is 1929). So they essentially just made this scenario up for the show and they decide to do it in the room that has Grace motif’s all over it. Yeah...

After Arthur thinks Finn has been shot by Chang’s accomplice he pulls a gun on him. Watch Chang stare down Arthur, it’s exactly like Grace’s with Kimber and IRA man she shot.

After this Chang puts the “purest” opium on the table. Pure truth he calls it. Which the opium also represents Grace, as you know that’s what Tommy drinks to hallucinate her and quite literally later as she takes the opium’s place on the barge in Tommy’s hallucination.

When Chang gives the Opium to Tommy as a gift, Tommy’s line is “I’ll throw it in the canal” which is just like his line to Grace in 1.06 “One day we’ll throw this gun in the canal”.

So now we have 4 things that represent Grace. The songbird, Swans, Chang, and Opium. Those will be important later.

The Next big scene we have is when Tommy hallucinates Grace in his office after Mosley leaves and she’s blaming him for her death. He can’t even look at her in this scene. It goes straight from this scene to him standing on bridge looking down, He see’s the January with Grace half covered in the coals (she’s in the spot the opium would be).

He runs to Ada to tell her about his vision (hallucination) of Grace even though it’s 2 AM. He tells Ada “Grace was there. But she was still alive. The name of the barge was the January”. Now this sticks out to me because he says she was still alive. It made no sense to me while this is the hallucination he says this about. He’s been talking to her and seeing her in other places but doesn’t say anything like that. He knows she’s not real so what gives. Then I read in the article above they originally had a swan that swimming in front of the barge but decided to cut it. So this scene was supposed to be the one you linked the swan imagery to Grace but since they cut it most people won’t know that the swan represents her through this series.

So here we have a swan in front of the barge that has Grace on it in place of the opium which Chang called “pure truth” and Tommy saying she was alive. Also, she’s not on just any barge but the January which is the boat Tommy had his healing journey on in s2. Hmm...He even says at one point to Ada “there is a part me that is unfamiliar to myself and I keep finding myself there and only the January can get me away”...Is that the shows way of saying that Grace being alive would help heal him like the January did in s2?

Now I agree with Ada that the black barge signals guilt for him too especially with Grace inside it. Even though he won’t admit it to anyone, we all know he feels guilty about her death.

Now about the Swan Lake Ballet. Polly tells Michael that Tommy want to impress someone which is Mosley this time but who is the other person he was constantly trying to impress. It’s the shows way of reminding you of her without saying her name.

When we get to the Lizzie’s party the first scene is with Michael and Gina Grey (Tommy and Grace lite lol). Tommy and Grace’s Secret Portrait are featured in most of this scene. They even focus on it at the end of their scene. Maybe the horse was named Grace’s Secret because her secret is she’s alive. The paintings are supposed to have a storyline of their own but we’ve never actually seen it. That portrait is the portrait we’ve seen every season (or a version of it) so it’s important. SK already had the series mapped out by s2 just hadn’t written it yet so it wouldn’t surprise me.

Now another thing that caught my attention, when Gina is telling Michael he’ll be replacing Tommy and he asks where Tommy will be she replies “where he wants to go to most”. We all think of that as death but let’s be honest, it’s with Grace. That’s what tips him over the edge every time to actually try to commit suicide (to be with her). So if she’s dead that’s where but if she’s not then it’s wherever she is.

On to another scene, in the scene between Mosley and Tommy having a brandy before the play we see pictures on the table with the liquor. There’s quite a few on there but Grace’s is the lightest one on the table and the one our eyes are drawn to. It’s a way to remind us of her again and look it’s her undercover picture.

Now we have the Swan Lake ballet. @korinthya has an exceptional analysis on this and what it means for the Peaky universe. So I’d go check it out if you’re interested.

We only see the swan dancing and not much of the story but as she’s dancing, Linda rolls up in her car and when she gets out she’s wearing a dress with songbirds on it!

She gets shot the exact same time as the Swan does. It looks like both Linda and the swan are dead (just Like Grace) but at the last second it makes a point to show the swan open her eyes. No need to do that unless it was important to the narrative because there is no other scene connected to that shot. Also, normally the swan dies by drowning not getting shot, so they changed that specifically to mirror Grace.

Once the next episode starts (ep5) we see that Linda has not died (the songbird lives). She was just shot in the arm, the same side as Grace (which is funny because Aberama and Finn were shot in the almost exact same spots this season and lived too). Now this scene could be a retelling of what sort of happened with Grace, not exact of course. Think about it, this whole season has been a loop of events. Working with the Chinese, the white flag truce, the bartender is a spy, there is a singer in the bar, Tommy shooting a horse, him doing his arm gesture in 5x01 like he did 3x01 with the no f’ fighting scene, ect. There’s so much more if you look.

So lets look at the key things from this scene with Linda and see what could have happened after Grace got shot.. Tommy is pulling Arthur away and telling him to go outside till it’s done (Linda getting the bullet out), which if you remember in 4x01 he told Polly to let the nurses and doctors do their job too. So it’s not out of the realm of impossibility that he let the doctors work on Grace and him not be in the room (she was still moving by the end of 3x02 so I don’t doubt she was alive when an ambulance got there). Tommy also says the bullet is still in there, it’s above the bone which could also be what happened to Grace. Don’t forget it looks like she got shot right on her collarbone not under it. This is part is important and can be a big clue as to how someone could pass her off as dead, Tommy sends Arthur out to get some Opium for Linda but Polly has some of her own and so Tommy gives it to Linda while Arthur is still out of the room. She passes out and then Arthur comes in the room and thinks she’s dead. He doesn’t even realize she’s alive until Tommy tells him that she’s ok and he gave her something to knock her out.

That could easily be what happened to Grace. Tommy might have let the doctors do their work, someone slipped her something (maybe section D, they did say they can get to anyone anywhere and they were there at the party) and when Tommy came back in it looked like she was dead. He might not have been able to handle looking at her like that and left. Remember in his hallucination in his office where she is holding the stone, bleeding and accusing him of her death he can’t look at her once. It might have been the same way in the hospital.

We also have another loop in this scene. Arthur is saying that Polly should have let him take the bullet (the original bullet was meant for Arthur but Polly stepped in and saved him) and it’s a repeat of the original bullet that Grace took was meant for Tommy. So the brothers were supposed to take a bullet but nope the wife ended up getting it. It doesn’t stop there during this scene either. We have another loop. Polly tells Arthur, Aberama wants him as his best man at their wedding just like Tommy wanted him as his best man at his wedding in 3x01.

Seriously just watch this season over and see how many loops there are. There is so many it’s unreal.

In the next scene with Linda and Arthur, she leaves him. which is essentially what Grace did with Tommy (voluntary or not it happened).

Then there is Ben Younger which is also some of a loop. He’s a British intelligence officer like Grace was. He’s having threats made to him by Section D because of Tommy (don’t forget they threatened Tommy’s family). He even brings up Section D’s history with Tommy. Tommy tells Ada “he pushed him to report on the Fascists” which is a loop of him telling the Gypsy lady “he pushed some people to far” (about the Italians). Saying he is guilty of both their death’s. He tells Ada that Section D or the intelligence branch had him killed (the loop here is that is who could have took Grace). Then some other things that connect younger to Grace also, Tommy said his death would go down as “an IRA assassination of a British Military Officer” which is what happened to Grace’s father. Then we see neither Grace’s or Ben’s dead bodies or funerals. Plenty of loops here. I do think Ben is dead though. The loop with Grace for him is the connections to section D and maybe the excuse to as how she died. I bet they didn’t say she was shot by an Italian in revenge. The ladies at the institute know of her death and aren’t afraid of Tommy so I bet they had a good cover.

Back to Chang, in his next scene we have talk of the police, Irish, and Opium. Which can be associated with Grace. He also talks about the Uncles being mad. That is the part that caught my attention. It was just a quick one liner that didn’t make much sense but remember the only family member we seen of Grace is her uncle and he was not happy about the marriage.

Arthur then says “F’ your uncles. And your aunts, your cousins, all of them Right?” which reminds me of Tatiana’s line in s3 “Brothers gave sisters, aunts gave uncles, fathers gave daughter and servants”. The deliveries were identical. So another loop.

Now I Think that’s most of the symbolism in S5.

Before I end this post I want to talk about SK saying Grace is dead. He’s probably not lying but it doesn’t have to mean dead like we think. Look at both Alfie in season 5 and Polly in s4, both say they died (when they had an attempt on their life) but are actually still alive. I mean even Aberama calls Polly a ghost in their kissing scene in s4. So I could see the same thing happening to Grace. She is dead like them but also still alive.

I mean isn’t that Tommy’s thing? He died in the war but he’s still here. Aren’t him and Grace the same but also mirrors? So who she was when she shot could very well be dead and a different Grace (maybe even different name if undercover) emerged and SK could still say she’s dead because hey guess what in context of the show she is, just like Polly, Alfie, Tommy, Danny Whizzbang(was), Chang, and Arthur (his fake out in s4).

If she does come back I don’t see it happening until maybe 11 years have passed. 11 seems to be the special number between Tommy and her. When Tommy has his soldiers minute in s1 the time on the watch is 11. Then before they sleep together in s2 Grace tells Tommy “it’s too late” and he says “Grace it’s 11:00″ and her replay is no “no I mean it’s too late”. So it’s not about time at all. I could see her coming back 11 years later and her telling Tommy it’s too late.

Now while I don’t think she is dead (final) after watching season 5 and going back through the seasons if I ever do see real ghostGrace I will hang up that theory. But the more I pay attention the more I see that something is amiss.

Ok, I’m done now. I may do a post about s3 and s4 and the signs there but this post is long enough as it is.

#peaky blinders #grace burgess #tommy x grace

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sol1056 · 5 years

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git along little nonnies

Got a whole bunch of you on related themes, so I’m just gonna do this all at once: a bunch of questions about DW, spinoffs, merchandise, business, management, support (and protest) and whatnot. In no particular order.

Ok there are petitions and peaceful boycotts directed at DW but problem is they aren’t addressing the EPs and things they, not DW, did so how are we to sign them, how to handle this when this could at best confuse the situation and not give any results and at worst, make matters even worse about what we want regarding DW addressing things?

Here’s what companies care about: money. Everything else is gravy.

If you want a corporation to pay attention to your complaints, then you need to figure out their sources of income, and find a way to threaten that. If the social reprobation is high enough, damage to the brand can translate into lost sales, but the tempest required to make that happen must be much, much larger than anything I’ve seen the fandom manage.

I’ve been saying this all along: voices are far more powerful than signatures. If twenty thousand people wrote or called in, and said what they liked vs what upset them, that would have a far greater impact. Certainly a lot more than a list of names with no emotion beyond a request that may not even be something DW can, or would, fulfill.

And don’t even get me started on mailing stuff in. Cute, but hardly actionable.

Do you know what kind of contracts DW sign, as in, are they obligated to air all seasons, can they choose not to air them, do the companies they work with (netflix, wep) have a say or more say than them? Who gets the last word? Is airing all seasons squarely on DW or more?

As I’m not a corporate lawyer employed by any of the signatories, I can’t tell you what the contract stipulated. What I can tell you is that a contract of the magnitude of the DW-WEP-Netflix agreement probably had a dissertation worth of riders covering the different types of possible defaults or breaches, and the penalties for each. Additionally, the contract also likely covered what constituted ‘satisfactory delivery’ of the product.

To take it down to a really simple level: you place an order at a restaurant. You expect to get it, eat it, and pay for it. You don’t expect to be told, “hey, we burnt your steak and we’re out of butter for your sweet potatoes, so have some green beans instead,” and then be told you still owe the full amount, anyway.

Netflix wouldn’t settle for ordering (and paying for) something never delivered, anymore than you would. Sure, any corporation worth their over-inflated stock options would try --- but that’s the point of contracts, to make sure they can’t.

Netflix paid, DW delivers, end of story.

...do you think ppl in charge didn't think EPs would tell they made changes and also thought they'd manage to bury it? And then they got in trouble and DW is going thru changes for that reason? -waves at DW goings on and silence.

I got lost in all the pronouns, there. Who’s the first ‘they,’ the EPs or DW execs? Is the second ‘they’ referring to the same as the first? So... I’m not really sure what you’re positing, but if the ‘DW is going through changes’ is implying DW’s got a shakeup and/or is promoting its head-of-TV to president and that’s somehow connected to two newbie EPs screwing up?

I’d say the chances are so infinitesimal as to be nearly in the negative. (I should also note, the press release listed successful shows Cohn oversaw, yet oddly did not include VLD.) DW is not a three-person start up; it has stakeholders and a board and a C-suite to satisfy. Cohn got that promotion ‘cause she’s got a track record going back thirty years, most recently growing DW’s TV division from 8 to 800 in five years.

Most corporations tend to announce their new CEO or President like someone woke up that morning and went, hey, I’ve got a great idea. Truth is, it’s usually in the works for at least a year, sometimes several years, or more. The only thing that has me side-eyeing the announcement is the silence around who’ll fill Cohn’s previous position.

But that’s again less to do with a single series, and more to do with what it says about DW as a whole, business-wise.

What meaningful changes could the new president Margie Cohn make that would be different than the last one? Also I'm sorry if your getting a bunch of Voltron/DW questions lately, you just seem to be the most knowledgeable person on this platform.

I’d be willing to bet I’m far from the most knowledgeable person; I’m just someone not bound by an NDA, and curious enough to do a bit of digging and jaded enough to talk about (most) of what I find.

A president can have immense impact on a company’s direction; that’s kinda why they exist, to set that high-level strategy. That said, Cohn will be bound by all contracts signed by her predecessor. The TV side (barring someone filling the shoes she left) will probably continue as it was. The theatrical side (which she’s taking over) will be where we’ll probably see any major changes.

And even those aren’t likely to be on films currently in production. Hell, given theatrical animation can take up to five years, I’m not sure that’d show much change, either. Look instead to changes in investors, new deals, and new properties.

What do you think DW will do about a sequel if there’s really no bible? Theres tons of plot holes & abandoned storylines. VLD will never feel satisfying, and fans already argued with different interpretations based on conflicting content, without a nice satisfying explanation...

I know this is the first of a three-part ask, but I’m skipping the rest because the only answer possible is to your very first question: the bible doesn’t matter.

Any new series --- even a continuation --- will construct its own bible. Same as we’d do in fandom: they’ll patch together what they can, fill in blanks as they need, and gloss the rest, or retcon it outright. Even if there were a bible, diligently followed, that doesn’t mean the next series is automatically beholden to it. Some franchises would care (ie Star Wars) while others might let a reboot mess with the details (ie Star Trek).

For every continuation, there’s gradations in between, since otherwise what’s the interest for creative minds, if you’re obligated to follow someone else’s script exactly? So, no. The absence of a story bible doesn’t preclude the next iteration making its own, as it needs, to whatever extent it requires.

I was wandering around the hot topic online store, and i noticed a shirt that raised a few flags and questions. it's the 'Voltron Location' shirt. it has all the paladins in different places in a star globe chart thing? with what might possibly be planet designations. plus Lance is the only one not inside his blue colored bubble. Keith is in Red and Shiro in Black again. it's interesting at least.

Nearly all the shirts use the same base images, just changed up. It feels a little like someone handed a designer a half-dozen images with a request for forty-something designs --- and now HT is just throwing them all at the wall to see what sticks (or sells).

HT’s stuff has been pretty consistent, from what I’ve heard: Shiro is Black, Keith is Red, etc. Considering the t-shirts seem to be selling out regularly (along with various other sidelines), I’d say someone is savvy as to the fact that the segment of fandom spending the most money is also the segment that prefers the S1/S2 lineup.

If that’s what customers want, it’s smart business for DW to provide.

(Yes, that applies on more than one level.)

There are VLD comic books being released by LionForge Comics, are those considered canon? Do LM and JDS have any involvement? They take place before Season 7and8 but I don't wanna support the original EPs.

Every fandom has its own stand on what counts as canon. Sometimes (especially with adaptations) you’ll find fandoms being explicit as to whether they’re book or movie (ie HP and LotR). I expect the same will eventually shake out in VLD’s fandom, too.

From everything I’ve heard, Hedrick and Iverson were handed the comics and ran with it. I suppose that would argue for seeing the comics as canon, being they were written by people also writing the main series... but from what I can tell, it’s one-way. The show affected the comics, but nothing in the comics ever affected the series.

That said, your purchases have nothing to do with the original EPs. All you’re doing is telling DW you like the VLD-iteration of Voltron.

What are your thoughts on the final vld poster? I feel like it’s missing the end. Allura is randomly staring back into nothing.

It’s a clever idea to do a poster for each season, but it’s not something I’ve ever paid any attention to, really. If it were drawn by the head writer? That might mean the artist had more insight than, say, a storyboarder or animator. But even then... cool picture, still not-canon. I’m only interested in canon.

Do you think that Voltron was rushed purposely by the EP's. [...] Wouldn't this effect the quality of, well, everything? I feel as if they got frustrated with the show at that point and just wanted out.

Dude. There are times I sit here and just stare into space, bewildered yet again not just at the thought of 39 episodes released in one year --- but doing that with 26 as a last-minute cut-and-paste rearrangement. All I can tell you is that what I’ve seen from animation people and aficionados (and friends) is that three full seasons in one calendar year is just bonkers.

If DW hadn’t wanted the schedule that packed, the EPs aren’t the ones getting the say. That’s a DW-Netflix thing. I really wonder whether DW used VLD as a guinea pig. TH went a year between S1 and S2, and the numbers slumped badly. Perhaps DW wanted to know if more episodes, more often, would keep fan interest high? DW has experienced execs, but they’re all from broadcast; how you arrange and time things in the brave new world of binge-watching is a completely different beast.

So, it’s possible it was less of a rush job to get the show out, and more from a desire to see what'd happen to release so much, so close together.

I still think it’s a bonkers schedule, though.

"Relaunch the whole property" sounds like they won't continue expanding the whole vld universe and they'll make a new itineration. Though if they do a spin-off it'd likely be on the vld universe surrounding the new "Legendary Defenders" from the epilogue. And "especially given the response" do you think after the negative response from s8, wouldn't be better for WEP to not keep working with Dreamworks? Or maybe they need to clean their brand from vld fiasco? What can you say about all of this?

I can say you might try re-reading, because boy is that a radical interpretation of the text. Remember, Jeremy was speaking before S8, and all indication is that he was caught off-guard as much as the fans. Re-read in light of Jeremy (at the time) appearing to expect S8 to be a crowd-pleaser.

...I'm becoming more confident in my belief that DW has something planned for Voltron. I mean they are still heavily promoting the show, LionForge is still publishing Voltron comics, and merchandise is still being made. These don't seem like the actions of a company trying to get people to forget a show.

You’re not wrong. Up to the last few days of 2018, DW gave every indication they wanted S8 quietly buried. Nothing they’ve done since has fit that pattern --- including the anomaly of failing to announce their 2019 series. Something is going on, that’s for certain.

Did DW really just throw the VAs to the wolves [for] three days? and there's still no official stance? One panel was enough. They had [the VAs] take the heat for them? But thankfully fans felt sorry for them? Which could also have been the goal, shut the fans up [with] the VAs of the characters who got the worst treatment and who love their characters ... Yes DW this really makes me trust you /sarcasm/

I don’t think that was the original plan. Let’s pretend DW released its 2019 schedule via press release in the first few days of January, and among those was an announcement of a VLD sequel or spinoff, coming late 2019.

People wouldn’t be fussing over putting the VAs through three panels. They’d be complaining we didn’t get the biggest room for every panel. The majority of the fandom doesn’t trust the EPs, and is wary of DW --- really, the only ones who retain any goodwill, at this point, are the VAs. So who better than to assure a nervous fandom about the goodness of the second iteration than the VAs whose characters were most shafted by the first iteration?

What breaks this is that immediately after S8 dropped, Josh and Kimberly went silent on twitter. AJ slipped into passive-aggressive snarking; Jeremy fell off the radar and usually he’s pretty interactive with his fans. Bex pretty much wiped VLD from her stream, possibly including deleting older tweets. Neil tried to engage and made a hash of it, bless his heart.

Josh and Kimberly are consummate professionals who reliably promote the series after every season drop, but their radio silence continued for almost two weeks. This wasn’t the first season that came saddled with controversy; if there was a time to go quiet, it was after S7. Something else was going on.

I have strong suspicions backed by research, but if I’m right, I’d be stepping on a major legal landmine. In the interest of not getting blown up, I’ll only say that the VAs appearing for those three panels (and their low-key and mostly diplomatic hedging around VLD’s conclusion) was a good sign that all parties involved are willing to work things out.

[DW was] quick to handle the Season 7 backlash and have stayed mum on what is arguably a much worse reaction to the 8th and final season.

and

I believe the S8 of voltron we got was not the original ending we were supposed to get and highly edited. My question is why? What was the point of changing the original ending? [The] radio silence from DW and the cast is driving me nuts. I wish DW would make a statement.

DW is in an interesting place. Its TV side is barely five years old, but dominated by execs with long-time broadcast experience, predating vibrant interactivity afforded by platforms like twitter, tumblr, or instagram. DW’s background as a theatrical company also seems to incline it away from any ongoing engagement with the audience. It releases a movie and by the time that hits theaters, DW is onto the next thing.

It’s a strong contrast with production studios like Zagtoon (Miraculous), who penned an open letter to their fandom about production delays. Or little studios like Wonderstorm (The Dragon Prince) whose deft use of twitter and tumblr sets their brand apart. Or Federator (Castlevania), with their witty marketing campaigns and willingness to engage with fans. Even Disney was willing to be open about its errors with Tiana, and to make clear how it was striving to do better --- so there’s no excuse that only small studios do such outreach.

My guess is that DW's core leadership is from the school of business in which admitting a mistake is tantamount to ritual suicide. Don’t blink first, or maybe the rule is never let them see you sweat, but whatever it is, DW is turning into a textbook case of how silence can damage a brand.

Companies have multiple avenues to reach customers directly, now. Our modern technologies are a two-way street, and good companies leverage that to create not passive fandoms but active communities. It takes work, careful planning, and some level of transparency --- something old-school execs find highly uncomfortable, to be honest --- but in this day and age, those are crucial building-blocks to achieving any kind of audience loyalty.

DW isn’t going to render itself obsolete (at least not overnight), but it's on a track to end up as the studio whose work audiences only watch when there’s nothing better being offered. Unfortunately for DW, there’s a hell of a lot of other studios out there, and they're all offering something better.

#vld #voltron #television production #marketing #business #sol thinks about stuff

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