#but in the end getting that Shitty Dad Approval fixes him. Not his own growth or self-reflection.

[bonefall]

⭕️Hey Bones! Is it ok if you explain and/or elaborate how Crowfeather is abusive to Breezepelt if please?⭕️

I do KNOW that crowfeather is indeed, abusive to Breezepelt, due to the fact that he emotionally and/or physically neglected him - with child neglect being known to BE a form of child abuse - and I also heard that he slashed and/or hit him within one of the books, which I believe is in the book Outcast, in chapter 16.

But I also wish people would talk and be informed about it more within the fandom, because in the parts of the fandom I’ve known portrayed Crowfeather’s neglect on Breezepelt as negative and bad, but not in a way that made me think and/or feel: “Wow, that’s pretty bad. That’s…actually abusive.” I suppose? So I hope more people will talk about it more in that type of way.

Also, please be aware that I have NOT read PoT, OoTS, etc. or barely any warrior cats books, since the majority of the information I got from the series is from the wiki and the fandom, so that probably explains why I didn’t know this part of Crowfeather’s character is as bad as it actually is until now. Also, feel free to talk about Crowfeather’s abuse on Breezepelt I haven’t mentioned and/or don’t know right now as well if you want.

I’m SO sorry that if this ask is unintentionally quite long, and feel free to make sure to take all the time you need to answer it. Thank you!

OH LET'S GOOOO

Breezepelt is both physically and emotionally abused by Crowfeather. I'm not talking about only child neglect; he is screamed at, belittled, and even once hit on-screen.

The fact that Crowfeather both neglected and abused him is very important to the canonical story of Breezepaw. There's actually a lot more to this character than people remember! Even from his first appearances he displays good qualities, a strained relationship with his father and adult clanmates, and is clearly shown to be troubled before we understand why.

As many problems as I have with the direction of Breezepelt's arc (especially Crowfeather's Trial), his setup is legitimately a praiseworthy bit of writing from Po3 which carries over into OotS. To say that Breezepelt was not abused is to completely miss two arcs worth of books SCREAMING it.

BIG POST. Glossary;

INTRO TO BREEZEPELT: The Sight and Dark River

ABUSE: Outcast, Social Alienation, the Tribe Journey.

DARK FOREST: How these factors push him towards radicalization.

For "brevity," I'm not getting into anything post-OotS. I'm just showing that Breezepelt was abused, the narrative wants you to know that he was abused, and that his status as a victim of child abuse is CENTRAL to understanding why he is training in the Dark Forest.

INTRO TO BREEZEPELT: The Sight and Dark River

Our very first introduction to Breeze is when Jaypaw walks off a cliff in the first book of Po3 and is rescued by a WindClan patrol. He's making snarky remarks, and Whitetail and Crowfeather are not happy about it. Whitetail snaps for Crow to teach his son some manners, and Crow growls for Breezepaw to be quiet.

But our proper introduction to him is at his announcement gathering, when Heatherpaw playfully introduces him as a friend,

From the offset something's not entirely right here between Breezepaw and his father. He's cut off by Heatherpaw here, but he's touchy whenever his father is involved, and we're not entirely sure why.

Throughout Book 1, he's just rude, with a notable xenophobic streak. He's a bit of a mean rival character for Lionpaw, as they're both interested in the affections of Heatherpaw and make bids to get her attention, but nothing particularly violent yet.

He participates in the beloved Kitty Olympics and gets buried in liquid dirt with Lionpaw, basically a rite of passage for any arc.

(And Nightcloud has a cute moment where she watches over them until they fall asleep)

As the books progress, the relationship between Crow and Breeze visibly deteriorates. They start from being simply tense with each other in The Sight, to the open shouting and hitting we see in Outcast.

In the very first chapter of Dark River, we learn where his behavioral issues are really coming from;

Crowfeather.

Breezepelt is getting xenophobia from his father. Occasionally he says something bigoted and his dad will agree and chime in, and those are the only positive moments they have together.

(Note: In contrast, Nightcloud explicitly pushes back against xenophobia, chiding Breezepelt for his rudeness to Lionpaw in back in The Sight, Chapter 21. The Sight is the book where a lot of "evidence" that the Evil Overbearing Woman is actually responsible for the rift between father and son but. No. She's not. Though she can be overprotective; Crow and Breeze have a bad relationship when she's not even around in Breeze's first appearance and even his Crowfeather's Trial Epiphany refutes it. Anyway this post isn't about Nightcloud.)

So he starts acting on his bigotry, accusing cats in other Clans of stealing, running really close to the border. What's interesting though, is that this is not entirely his doing. The first time we get physical trouble from Breezepaw, DUSTPELT aggressed it. Breezepaw and Harepaw were just chasing a squirrel and hadn't yet gone over the border at all.

We learn that WindClan is teaching its apprentices how to hunt in woodland, and tensions between the two Clans is starting to escalate as ThunderClan isn't entirely trusting of their intentions.

The second time, fighting breaks out over him and Harepaw actually crossing the border and catching a squirrel. WindClan is adamant that because it came from their land, it's their squirrel. So it's as if Breezepaw is modelling the aggression around him, learning how to behave from the older warriors and his father.

When he joins Heatherpaw and The Three to go find Gorsetail's kits in the tunnels, he's grouchy towards the ThunderClan cats, but very gentle with the kittens. Notably so. When Thistlekit is dangerously cold, he cuddles up next to her, and even assures Swallowkit when she's scared,

Through this entire excursion, he's the one in the comforting roles for the kittens. Breezepaw is the one who is taking time to tell the kits they'll be okay, that he'll protect them, and physically supporting them when they're weak, even when he's terrified.

And it's always contrasted to Heatherpaw who's way more 'disciplined,' as a side note. It's a detail I'm just fond of.

All this to point out,

Breezepelt displays his best qualities when he's away from the older warriors of WindClan, and he's at his worst whenever he's near Crowfeather. Even while he's essentially just a bully character for The Three to deal with. He's gruff but cooperative when it's just him and Heatherpaw interacting with The Three, but mean when there is an adult to please.

We're getting to the on-screen abuse now, but Po3 actually sets up Breezepaw's troubles and dynamics well before it's finally confirmed that he is a victim of child abuse.

ABUSE: Outcast, the Tribe Journey.

In Outcast, Breezepaw's problems have escalated into open aggression towards cats of other Clans, and is now a legitimate concern for his own safety. Yet, he's spoken over by older warriors, and reprimanded at nearly every opportunity, right in front of the warrior of another Clan.

Squilf just asked the poor kid how his training was going, and then Whitetail JUMPS to talk over him so she can complain, RIGHT in front of his face.

They can't even wait until they're alone to grumble something rude about Breezepaw, who is still just a teenager here;

They taught him already that a bit of prey that runs off their own territory still belongs to WindClan, encourage him to blow past borders in pursuit, and started a battle with ThunderClan over this. And then they're pissed off at him for being aggressive, thinking it's deserved to scold him in public.

When Onestar announces that he wants Breezepaw to go on the Tribe Journey, he's devastated by it...

Because he thinks WindClan doesn't like him, and he's right. He's gossiped about, torn into in front of a ThunderClan warrior, and even his own dad doesn't want to be around him. It's clear that Breezepaw's impulsive "codebreaking" behaviors are a desire to prove himself, and once you realize that, the way that he's being alienated is heartbreaking.

But Wait!! Hold on a minute! Where did he get a "patrol of apprentices" from to confront the dogs with, exactly?

Simple. Breezepaw CAN make friends! He actually values them a lot! So much that it's the first thing Crowfeather snaps at him over, out of frustration that his son is also being forced on this journey with him. It's an angry response to his child having emotional and physical needs, resentment that will continue all journey long.

Note that it's plural, friends. Breezepelt has multiple friends, at least one who is not Heatherpaw, and she promises to say goodbye to them.

Up next, they state over and over, Crowfeather and Breezepaw do not like each other. Crowfeather resents being around him and dealing with his rudeness, embarrassed and angry, and Breezepaw is absolutely miserable being sent on a journey to the mountains with a man who hates his guts.

The whole while, Crowfeather is brooding longingly about Feathertail, already thinking about her as soon as he kitty-kisses Nightcloud goodbye, his eyes looking somewhere distant. He makes a jab about loyalty when Breezepaw doesn't understand why they're helping the Tribe.

Breezepaw gets smacked after he's "shoved" at Purdy and acts rude to him, while the other three manage to be polite (while still having internal dialogue about how stinky he is).

Without so much as a, "cut that out," Crowfeather raises his paw and hits him. Breeze is quiet after that.

I don't give a shit how rude your teenager is being. Do not hit kids. Being throttled on the head is not okay.

In spite of the Three not liking Breezepaw, or even Crowfeather, they're constantly noting that their arguments are not normal, and that Crow is a cold, unsupportive father who digs into his kid constantly, and the only time he ever DOES "discipline" his child it's through immediately smacking him.

At one point, the apprentices get hungry, and decide to foolishly hunt in a barn that they know has dogs in it against Purdy's warnings. Once again, JUST like the first two books, Breezepaw is more friendly when Crowfeather is not around.

EVERY time he is alone with cats his own age, he's grumpy but cooperative. Even enthusiastic at times! The minute Crowfeather is in the picture, he's nasty.

Naturally, the dogs show up, but Purdy rescues them. Though Brambleclaw also chews his kids out (and i have strong opinions about bramble's parenting style for another time), Hollypaw is taken aback by the contrast of what a scolding from Brambleclaw looks like vs how Crowfeather reacts.

The narrative is desperately trying to tell you that the way Crowfeather treats his son is not normal.

And then Crowfeather is pissed off that Breezepaw is exhausted from running for his life from hungry dogs,

And he's constantly losing his shit whenever Breezepaw says something as innocuous as "dad im hungry"

Then, Breezepaw is made to watch his dad pine over the grave of a woman who died long before Crowfeather was even considering his mother for a mate. What he feels is jealousy, because he knows his own father doesn't love him anywhere near as much as he loves the memory of Feathertail.

This really goes on and on and on. The ENTIRE trip is like this, with Crowfeather treating Breezepelt poorly, giving him a smack before even verbally warning him, pushing him past his limits and blowing up on him when he asks simple questions about eating or resting.

It all comes to a head in this one exchange, towards the end. Hollypaw ends up snapping at Breezepaw for his rudeness, before having an epiphany.

It's explicit. Crowfeather's emotional abuse, his "scorn" for Breezepelt, is what is driving a wedge between him and all of his older Clanmates. Between EVERYONE in Breezepelt's life who wasn't already his friend. This awful treatment is only making him worse and worse.

Realizing this, she has more sympathy for him, but it's too late. He continues to be rude to her because he feels insulted, and her patience completely runs out. She's just a kid. They're both just kids. She's not responsible for fixing him when he's pushing everyone away at this point.

That's the end of Breezepelt in Outcast. It can't be helped anymore. Any spark of friendship they had together in the barn, or in the tunnels, is gone.

As the series progresses, Crowfeather continues to refuse any personal responsibility for the mistreatment of his son, even pinning all of Breezepelt's behavioral problems on Nightcloud. He is a cold, selfish father who only ever thinks about his own pain and reputation.

DARK FOREST: How these factors push him towards radicalization.

Everyone talks about the Attack on Poppyfrost, which happens in the first book of OotS, in oversimplified terms. YES he is going after a nun and a pregnant woman. I've never said that's not Bad.

But no one talks about "WHY", and that reason is NOT just that he desires power like so many other WC villains. Breezepelt makes his motivation very clear on the page.

Escalating to violence was about making Jayfeather feel the way that he does.

When Breezepelt says that he wants Jay to be surrounded by "lies, hatred, and things that should never have happened," he's talking about the way HE grew up, knowing his father never wanted him, and that his Clan HATES him as a result. Killing Poppyfrost is about trying to frame Jayfeather for her murder, so ThunderClan won't trust him anymore.

When Jayfeather points out the simple truth that what Breezepelt is saying doesn't make any goddamn sense, his hatred "falters." He's blaming his half-clan half-brother for his own treatment because of the reveal, but totally failed to consider that JAYFEATHER'S ALREADY GOING THROUGH IT... so his response is just this pitiful, "s-shut up, man."

Then the ghost of Brokenstar and Breezepelt bounce him back and forth between them like a beach ball for a bit until Honeyfern's spirit shows up.

Breezepelt's childhood abuse and social alienation was a hook that the Dark Forest latched onto, to reel him in. His anger at his half-brother is so obviously misplaced that its absurdity was something Jayfeather pointed out.

We soon learn that it's the Dark Forest who's planting that ridiculous idea in his head;

The narration is SCREAMING, "The Dark Forest is validating the anger he feels towards his father, and redirecting it towards The Three." He's described as 'kitlike,' Tigerstar's eyes are compared to a hypnotizing snake.

This prose could not make it more obvious if it drove to your house, beat you with it, and then spoon fed you the point while you were hospitalized.

At the end of this scene, Tigerstar sends Hawkfrost to recruit Ivypaw. This scene where Breezepelt is being lovebombed, and the command to start grooming Ivypaw, ARE LINKED. That was a choice.

A VERY GOOD choice! Again, as many issues as I have with OotS, its handling of indoctrination is unironically fantastic, and it owes a good amount of that to the outstanding setup of Breezepelt that was done back in Po3. And that setup doesn't work if Crowfeather was merely distant.

Breezepelt was abused by his father, both verbally and physically. It drove him to be more aggressive to prove himself, modeling the battle culture around him. The adults of WindClan judged him based off Crowfeather's responses, shunning and belittling the 'problem' teenager, which eventually drove Breezepelt to the only group that he felt "understood" him.

In a book series that is RIFE with abuse apologia, this is one of the few times that there's any behavioral consequences for abuse and the narrative holds the perpetrator accountable for it.

But people hear Crowfeather's deflective excuse in The Last Hope where he says he never hated him, blames Nightcloud for everything, and just lick it up uncritically.

Gee whiz, I wonder why the guy who never blames himself for any of his problems would suddenly say it was his ex-wife's fault. Real headscratcher!

(Crowfeather's Trial then goes onto, for all my own problems with it, also hold Crow accountable as the reason why Breezepelt turned out like he did. But that's a topic for another day.)

#This is headcanon territory here. But one day I realized I can read Breezy-P with BPD and he became a blorbo. #Never been able to unsee it and it massively endears him to me... Breeze Pelt Disorder... #I actually REALLY hate how his arc was resolved and strongly feel that he should have progressed into a bigger problem #But I equally strongly feel that being redeemed is the ideal ending for him #so if it was between him being pure evil/redemption death or the awful halting we got at the end of oots.... #I'd pick the halting over him being pure evil or a redemption death. #I think BB made me REALLY fall in love with him. He's my sweet cheese. My good time boy. #Bones when he sees an angry black cat: ''i can fix you. first i must break you. but then i can fix you'' #Like. what i dislike about where he went is that even if your anger issues came from abuse. you STILL are responsible for your actions #but in the end getting that Shitty Dad Approval fixes him. Not his own growth or self-reflection. #it feels like BREEZE gets his agency stripped away for HIS ABUSIVE DAD'S character arc #It retcons in a reason why Breezepelt is not still a problem and then he faded into the background. #while Crowfeather continues to get supporting roles and every now and then Breeze now looks at him fondly #BLECH. #Crowfeather #Breezepelt #Abuse #Child Abuse #Warrior Cats Analysis #And now you know anon!!

[ailuronymy]

Book Club: Tallstar’s Revenge, chpt. 10-18 overview.

Human voices as heard by cats, courtesy of two experts in the field of ailurolinguistics:

"ghghtaa'ppgthannneetltssssa!” - S. 

“Nnghavva'thalpssasann!” - K.

This week we’re discussing this chapter through these nine questions. Please feel welcome to do the same and @ailuronymy + use the tag #ailuronymy writing challenge. Happy reading and I’m looking forward to seeing your feelings about this book.

1. First impressions? 

K. Everyone has many important discussions, that actually hold zero weight at all. Many things happen for absolutely no reason. I'm in pain.

S. REAL.

2. How did you feel reading this section?

S. Emotionally conflicted. There's always some frustration, but there were also moments of genuine joy, which was a very welcome surprise.

K. But for real: pleased to see some genuine growth and goodness from my favourite characters, but so upset at the bad directions taken.

3. What chapter did you find most interesting/moving/effective, and why?

S. I keep forgetting to mark things out by chapter in my notes, but I feel like the time Tallpaw spends with Reena really brought me the most pleasure to read.

K. I think I got the most out of the first half of Chapter Twelve, the Gathering. I loved the back-to-back of Heatherstar making good choices, the new warrior trio jumping around and being sweet, and Dawnstripe Finally Giving Us Some Good Fucking Advice. K. Honorary shout-out to Tallpaw finally telling his dad off in Chapter Eleven though.

S. YES. 

4. What chapter did you find least interesting/effective/most frustrating, and why?

S. Most frustrating is absolutely the aftermath of both Brackenwing's death and later Sandgorse's. I was not coping with how stupid and unreasonable everyone was being, but in a way that felt entirely manufactured, and not actual grief.

K. Chapter Eighteen pissed me off to see Tallpaw be taken in such a tangent. Like, everyone else I can kind of ignore because I wasn't expecting Windclan to be very good about any of it since Erin's doing her bullshit.  K. But Tallpaw.... I was hoping Tallpaw would be better.

5. Is there a passage that stuck in your mind–for good, or not-so-good reasons? What is it, and why did it stand out? Try breaking it down and analysing what this passage does and how.

S. I really loved Dawnstripe's conversation with Tallpaw. That stood out to me as basically unique in Erin Hunter's writing so far, especially in this book.

K. “Tallpaw stiffened. Did Sandgorse think he’d change his mind about becoming a moor runner now that he’d been underground?” K. I loved seeing him just finally Snap. K. Not to mention the very real young gay feeling of having that dread in your stomach, of going "Oh no, am I going to have to keep this up?"

6. Have your feelings changed towards any character in this next section? What caused this change?

K. Sandgorse lost all rights! K. Can't believe I almost liked him for a second, the hope for an okay dad got me there.

S. It’s okay. I was too jaded to be taken in, but your optimism isn't a weakness. S. I hate their relationship and I Love that Sandgorse died but God I Hate Tallpaw's reaction to that so much. It's so jarring and feels way off from reality.

K. Also: I would die for Doespring/Stagleap/Ryestalk, I adore them so much. Same with Reena, she can stay.

S. For me, the biggest change is that I'm losing a lot of affection and attachment to Tallpaw the longer he keeps up this Sandgorse whinge. Like, I was ecstatic when Sandgorse died, but now that Tallpaw's only personality trait is being miserable about Sandgorse, it's really like he never left and I hate that passionately. 

7. How do you feel about pacing in the book so far? Is the story moving too fast, too slow, just right? Why do you feel this way?

S. Way too slow.

K. The pacing is dry and slow and sad. So much of what's happened so far could be condensed and written so much better.

S. You could cut out a solid half of what's written and it'd be a better story. It's all fat right now, where it could be lean and tasty, medium-rare spiced narrative.

8. How do you feel about the visitors in this section? Is it a new element you really like, or does it feel out of place? Share your thoughts on this new development!

K.  From the notes: Okay, I don’t like what’s happening with the visitors and I don’t think they should even be here, but I do think that they seem like fun little people. Like for all intents and purposes the visitors should not exist, but boy am I always glad to see characters I don't hate!

S. Oh, that's so interesting! I actually feel quite positively to the idea of Windclan's regular visitors, and it's definitely something in my canon. I don't like any of how canon's handling it (surprise, surprise) but I like that this idea has been broached, and it feels entirely right to me that Windclan is the one to do it.

K. I don't disagree with you there, I think for me it's just frustrating seeing how the Erins are introducing and handling it that's bugged me. Like, Windclan is on the outskirts of everything and it makes total sense that they'd be much more likely to run into like... farmcats and the like more than other clans. That doesn't bug me. It's just like... literally everything about how they've been set up and how secretive things are and blah blah blah that makes me lose it a little. 

S. Totally. I’m with you. 

9. If you could change one significant moment in this section–a piece of dialogue, an event, a bit of world-building–what would you want to change, and what do you think would be the ramifications of that for the rest of the story?

K. THE CLAN NEEDS TO STEP UP FOR TALLPAW, END OF STORY K. But yeah no, there's lots of shit that needs fixing but DAMN if the clan doesn't need to stand up for Tallpaw and defend and support him. Boy takes SO much blame and he deserves none of it.

S. I honestly wonder how much difference there would be if Palebird had more support/Brackenwing half-adopted Tallpaw (you know, the way queens are said to co-raise kittens but never do). Because this boy is so unloved and his self-esteem comes from feeling totally unwanted and undervalued, so he clamours for Sandgorse's approval because he doesn't get it from Palebird, but Sandgorse rejects him and makes it worse, so Tallpaw is stuck really craving validation and not really having any outlet to develop his sense of self or confidence in his own value and abilities. Obviously Dawnstripe is doing her best, but that's not a substitute for parental neglect and abuse.

K. Dawnstripe: Look at him! You fucked him up, is what you did. He has anxiety!

Final notes:

S. I knew Sandgorse was going to die because it was mentioned in some of the pages I looked at for the story I'm writing. And I thought he was going to be murdered by Sparrow, because that's how all the wikis talked about it.  S. So when he died of his own idiot hubris, I was like, "wait what" and kept waiting for it to be revealed that Sparrow killed him in the tunnel and then made it collapse to cover that up. S. So I thought it was going to be a story of Tallpaw Solves A Murder No-one Will Believe Was Committed. And that... didn't happen. He just got shitty and hateful. K. Tbh that would make more sense and also be leagues cooler than. Any of this S. Yeah! I thought it would be kind of dope and then Talltail would confront Sparrow and be like, "you're not worth it," and be the bigger man or whatever, that whole thing, learn the meaning of friendship or whatever, and go home.   S. Instead! Sparrow didn't do it, so now Tallpaw's just a wreck out of control lashing out at everyone and decides to hunt down someone to kill them for not dying and/or saving his outrageously shitty dad. S. To me, a much more likely story is Tallpaw experiencing guilt because he's relieved that Sandgorse's gone and he's like, 'oh my god I'm a bad person I shouldn't want my dad to be gone.' Like that's a trauma narrative that people who've, you know, experienced significant abuse can actually relate to. K. Not to mention that like. Before Sandgorse dies, his one action is to blame his son for being awful at everything and to pretty much disown him.  K. But YEAH, lets feel Sad for That Guy

K. [Shrewpaw] was bad before and frankly I am beyond tired with him now. S. He has no real narrative purpose, is what peeves me. I know that's a bit highbrow for an Erin Hunter story, but like. You should be thinking about function in a story, especially one for children, because in children's lit., you don't really have the space for excess. You should keep the story trim and clean. S. Giving Erin Hunter more pages, like they do in these super editions, enables their worst habits, which is the fact I don't think they consider function like ever. So you have all this... flabby, pointless dialogue that doesn't move anything forward or reveal any new characterisation.

K. Oh, some other choice notes from the Gathering: K. Stagleap: Hey bro, come see this hot Riverclan babe with me.  Tallpaw, gay: Uhh I’m very interested in the announcements, actually, K. Dawnstripe accidentally playing wingman for her apprentice is coincidentally very funny. “Tallpaw didn’t like the way the young tom was eyeing him—like a hunter assessing prey.” Hmmmmm Okay Buddy, S. I was genuinely so charmed by Stagleap's crush on Shimmerpelt. That felt real and true and I loved it. The rest of the gathering let me down a lot, but like. Erin Hunter gatherings always do. They don't know how to let a scene breathe. K. Stagleap, Ryestalk, and Doespring are so charming. I love when they come onscreen. They inject a lot of cute moments into a very dour book. K. Gatherings are my favourite in concept so I always get SO excited to read them. But they almost always suck.  S. It's wild to me that Erin Hunter is never like, "maybe fun is fun." I do resent it. S. I love the organised chaos of a gathering, and how different it is to literally every other part of warrior life. It's something that I actively have to resist putting in stories, because I always want to do it even when it adds nothing to what I'm telling. It's just so fun to write and to read. S. Literally one of my notes is just "Ahh!!! A Gathering! Finally!" K. Me too!! Mine was "GATHERING TIME, GATHERING TIME, my favourite part of any book!" S. [dabbing frantically because cats are going to hang out under a full moon] K. Like if you were going to let a scene have its moment and play it out, it would be the Gathering. Like I'd love for the announcements to happen and then they all just mingle and enjoy themselves until the moon clouds over. Instead of Announcements, Moon Over, Scene Done, Go Home.  S. Gathering speedrun: if you clip through the deputy, you can skip the personal connection and go right to the leaving while being kind of bored and miserable.

S. [after Sandgorse’s suggestion of hiding from invaders in the tunnels or using them to run away] why. [Raiders are] literally not going to be like, “oh I guess Windclan’s not here and we should go home,” they’ll be like, “great Windclan’s not here, this IS our new home.” Sandgorse talks a big game about not being a coward, but the tunnellers’ solutions are literally only “just hide in a hole” or “run away.” S. I got so mad about that. The tunnellers being like, "we were doing important tunnel business to protect the clan, we could be here to protect the clan," and they get chewed out for that and Sandgorse has the brass balls to be like, "well our tunnels will save lives." S. I'm like, will they? S. Or will you die in one in a pathetic final display of defiant idiot masculinity?

S. That said, something that did chatter my suspension of disbelief like cheap glass: the visitors' names. K. They’re bad.  S. Algernon???? K. ALGERNON K.  ALGIE??? S. "They were named by twolegs" please say psyche S.  I just... cannot believe in a world where a cat hears some word humans repeat at them a lot, and goes, "that's my name, I will introduce myself to other cats using this sound." Instead of like... getting a name from other cats, or picking a name for themselves. Especially if the cat doesn't live with those humans. S. It's more real to me for a cat to be like "oh yeah that's what the humans think my name is, they don't speak cat very well but they're trying," than being like, "I will take that garbled junk as my name." K. I love that so much better. S. I find it so funny that cats would hear human languages basically like cthulhu speech, and be with a friend like, [listens] Human in the garden: ghghtaa'ppgthannneetltssssa! Cat: "hold on, my person is calling, I need to check on them." Cat, returns: "It's fine, they forgot where the door was so I showed them. What were you saying?" K.  Cat: "Are you good?? Do you need assistance?" Human: Nnghavva'thalpssasann! Cat: "Ohh, you want pets. Here, I can give you some chin rubs. You like those? God, you're so stupid and I love that about you." S. Cat: "my humans are so smart, they know about seven words, kind of." S. Cat: "I call that one 'Very Tall Getter of Things From the Shelf' and I call that one 'Cuddles Me Warmly.'"

#ailuronymy book club #a little delayed! sorry about that everyone. looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts about this round #tallstar's revenge

[endlessnightarts]

(I wrote this after Ragnarok came out, then decided I didn’t want to start some shit, so it got stuck in my queue for awhile, now I feel like yeah I should just post it bc I found myself blacklisting tags relating to Thor 4?)

Remember when T'Challa confronted his father for the things he’d learned T’Chaka had done? When T’Challa got to see his father’s failings and react, to become better for having processed those betrayals?

Thor doesn’t really get to do that in Ragnarok and it’s such a glaring fault I’m never going to be over it. Thor’s characterization gets hamstrung and he steps backward from things he was starting to figure out in The Fucking Dark World.

For all that Ragnarok is about the evils of imperialism and Odin having this blood-soaked history of conquest - It still allows Odin a respectful death scene and brushes past so many of the things he’s done to all his children. We’re asked to accept that a simple “I love you, my sons” is enough to make up for everything he’s done to Thor and Loki. Those boys are complete wrecks, and this movie really should have been Thor finally admitting Odin did BAD SHIT. Thor never even seems to realize that Odin fucked him up, and god forbid we acknowledge that Odin fucked up Loki as bad as he did. And hell we’re asked to accept this reconciliation literally as Odin is admitting he fucked up his first kid even worse than the boys and isn’t very sorry about it.

The Dark World explicitly set up Odin against Thor. Because Thor had come home off of his time on Earth and the things he’d learned there. Returning to Asgard and finding it felt different to a changed version of himself Thor started to see that Odin was more violent and ruthless than he realized, and Thor wasn’t ok with that anymore.

The whole ‘I’d rather be a good man than a great king” thing needed to be revisited, because the only model of kinghood Thor knows is Odin’s. And he didn’t realize how fucked up that was until TDW, which is theoretically escalated in Ragnarok. In the first movie Thor thinks that Odin is wise and making hard choices that Thor is uncomfortable with and doesn’t think he can do, and he thinks that's a character flaw on his part. That he’s not good enough somehow and still has much to learn.

TDW had Thor starting to really see that Odin has major flaws and disagreeing with him to the point of committing treason to protect Asgard.

Ragnarok should have been the movie where Thor really disconnected being king from being Odin - and in a way he does when he steps up to lead the refugees instead of handing it off again. But the transition is made without ever confronting Odin about it. Or even getting across that he’s made that disconnect and taken Odin off the pedestal he’s been on Thor’s entire life.

It's a step backwards. Thor argues with Odin in The Dark World and even questions his need for Odin’s approval. He learns to really define himself more and not just trust that Odin knows best.

And the thing about the final scene in The Dark World is that we really, really need to revisit the implications after Thor finds out Loki was impersonating Odin at the time. Because that movie had this very clear antagonistic thing between them where Thor was chafing under Odin’s rule, learning to see Odin as not infallible and Odin pushing back very harshly - violently even - when Thor disobeyed him. Without that extra scene at the end, Thor and Odin’s relationship would have been ending on a very low note, perhaps ruined for good. But from Thor’s perspective he returns home to find Odin having reconsidered and sort of come around to accepting that Thor isn’t blindly obeying him anymore. Tacitly approving of Thor’s decision to act in defiance of Odin to protect Asgard, and even giving him permission to delay his kingship indefinitely. Now, to Thor, that seems like a major repair/redefining of their relationship as less parent/child blind obeying to a more equal relationship of respect with Thor being seen as a mature adult who doesn’t always agree. Ragnarok never touches on the fact that literally the only time we see Odin being that compassionate and compromising with Thor is when ITS LOKI.

And when Thor finds that out there isn’t any moment where he realizes that his relationship with Odin might still be in the phase it was in the middle of The Dark World - where Odin was controlling and overbearing and cruel (not to mention the fact that Loki as Odin could have had Thor tried for treason and thrown in the dungeon but instead gave him permission to just fuck off to a different realm and while that does still help Loki keep power it's definitely a lot less shitty than something he would have done circa his Avengers era headspace and I think that’s some growth on Loki’s part even if he’s being selfish because oh yeah that’s what Chaotic Neutral kind of means) But we’re never going to talk about that again I guess. Odin was a good dad and Loki is just a spoiled rich kid with no real problems apparently.

Ragnarok condemns Asgard’s history of bloody conquest, and uses the whole Sins of the Father thing but also refuses to really condemn Odin - the mastermind behind all of it. There’s lip service to it, Hela calls out Odin for conquering the other realms and turning on her and lying to everyone, but Odin himself? He gets a peaceful, respectful death scene where he isn’t held to any account even as he’s dropping more shit on his sons laps to deal with.

And the worst is that final vision Thor has, where he kneels before his wise father and practically begs Odin to explain the answer to him. It’s annoying. Thor deserved a scene like T’Challa gets in Black Panther - he needed to confront Odin and be able to state that Odin was wrong. That Thor is a better man than Odin and he became that despite the way he was raised. That he’s going to be a better king than Odin because he’s learned to not just emulate Odin’s style of rule.

That would have been a real three movie arc for Thor. Not this ‘I’m not strong enough, father, tell me how to fix this’

Thor isn’t made to come back and reexamine his relationship with Odin.

Instead, Thor treats Odin in their final scene like he always has. With reverence, with respect, desperate for his advice and approval. It’s like he’s absorbed nothing that he’s learned. No ‘I’ve had to fight my siblings and its because of the lies you told.', No 'You were wrong and I don’t want or need your approval.'

What is the movie telling me Thor learned here? They destroy Asgard, yes, but that’s all set up in a way that’s more about stopping the active threat of Hela destroying everything than about Thor really realizing he can’t continue Odin’s legacy. Thor gets to push so much of this onto Hela rather than confronting Odin about it and its a shame. And because Hela’s characterization is so thin it’s easy for Thor to focus on her rather than spend time re-contextualizing everything about Odin. Hela is the physical representation of Odin’s past evils and yet somehow Thor treats them entirely differently.

It’s just...I dunno, man. I wanted Thor to grow on his own by the end of this movie, not need a pat on the back from Odin before he could level up?

#Thor #Hela #Odin #Loki #look I don't hate Ragnarok #and I don't like The Dark World as much as this makes it sound like #but yeah #STUFF AND THINGS #ABOUT MOVIES #none of this is even touching on Infinity War and Endgame #IF and Endgame? #Dont Know Her #mcu #comic book junk