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akari-hope · 3 years

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Not sure why you think that wlw are more shunned, viewed as predatory, and otherwise demonized than mlm relationships, particularly enemies to lovers dynamics? Sapphics are by and large wayyyyy more well-received than mlm. Sapphics are seen as soft and harmless and lovely even when they’re fighting, while mlm are seen as dirty and emasculated and generally viewed with complete disgust.

i said that mlm are FETISHIZED more in enemies to lovers dynamics than wlw. wlw are more DEMONIZED than mlm in enemies to lovers dynamics. and i gave clear examples of dynamics that reflect this in that post, so i'm not pulling this out of my ass. neither is good. both are bad. they're just different kinds of bad. i'm pretty sure i made that clear but if i didn't, i'm restating it now - NEITHER MLM NOR WLW ARE TREATED WELL IN MEDIA REGARDLESS OF DYNAMIC. THIS IS NOT OPPRESSION OLYMPICS. DIFFERENT PROBLEMS DOES NOT EQUAL BETTER PROBLEMS.

i am, however, a lesbian, and i'm going to be able to speak more coherently and authentically to the sapphic representation and general treatment of women in media than anything else. it's my firsthand experience and it's always going to be easier and more accurate than my musings on the experiences of other groups of people. and given that i have a particular fondness for enemies to lovers dynamics, of course i'm bound to contemplate sapphic enemies to lovers dynamics specifically.

but if we must dance this dance bc you decided to take a bad faith interpretation of my words, women have to do more to be loved in media, and they have to do far less to be hated. this is a fact plain and simple, and if you can't acknowledge that we are not even remotely on the same page. You can look at ANY piece of media and see this is true. the supernatural fandom's treatment of basically any women vs. the kingdom hearts fandom's treatment of kairi vs. the naruto fandom's treatment of sakura. etc. etc. etc. i could name examples all day. these are women who, yes, have shoddy writing, but instead of getting the same treatment of a male character with shoddy writing - immediately getting fleshed out by fans - they get set aside as annoying, bitchy, mary sues, etc. even female characters with GOOD writing will get this treatment, a la lightning farron from final fantasy xiii. male characters with the SAME EXACT TRAITS are often beloved by fans. easy example, see cloud strife from final fantasy vii, who shares a hysterically huge amount of personality traits with lightning farron.

and this is BEFORE we even get into the discussion of being sapphic, or god forbid any other type of minority. traditionally beautiful white cishet women who are feminine and kind are the only women to ever pass for general audiences, and even then it's not consistent. women must be "palatable". versus white men, who are allowed to be dark, messy, gritty, murderers, even genocidal dictators and still be beloved by fans. and yes, the qualifier of white is necessary here - men of color, especially black men, do not get this same generosity from fans, and you bet your fucking ass it goes triple for women of color.

and again, this is BEFORE WE EVEN FACTOR IN BEING GAY OR MENTALLY ILL OR ANY OTHER FACTORS. THIS IS ASSUMING ALL CHARACTERS ARE CISHET AND NEUROTYPICAL.

women are "soft and harmless and lovely" as you put it when they fight...if they're fucking tifa lockhart. if they're feminine and sweet and cute normally, or at least perceived that way. if they look like they're out of madoka magica (and oops not even then, bc you bet your ASS there's insane demonization of miss homura akemi). and also, friendly reminder, that "soft and harmless and lovely" thing isn't a compliment. it's fucking infantilizing at best.

for sheer simplicity's sake, to compare two ships that are on a relatively equal playing field in terms of representation, i'm going to take a look at the general reception of goro akechi/ren amamiya from persona 5 (i'm using ren as his name for simplicity's sake) and madoka kaname/homura akemi from madoka magica.

some brief context for both: both are heavily queercoded, homura is initially introduced as an antagonistic character but it is later revealed to not be the case, akechi is initially introduced as a friendly character but it is later revealed to not be the case, and both homura and akechi have clear and intense struggles with trauma and other mental health issues.

judging by what i've said, from your own logic, surely homura is a widely beloved and not at all vilified character. after all, she's feminine, she's not REALLY a villain, and she's got sympathetic motivations. right? wrong. homura is widely beloved... by sapphics. but even people who LIKE THE SHOW DO NOT ALWAYS LIKE HER. homura was WIDELY hated and discoursed back when the show first aired. you still get people who hate her. and even more frustrating, despite the blatant, you-absolutely-cannot-miss-it queercoding, sapphic fans of the show still have to argue that it's not just "girls being friends". it's not even a true enemies to lovers setup, and you still cannot escape homura being called toxic and predatory.

now let's take a brief look at akechi and ren. like previously stated, akechi is revealed to be an antagonist later in the story. and when he is, he tries to shoot ren in the head and frame it as a suicide. this is, quite obviously, a lot different from homura and madoka, where homura never even directly fights madoka. surely by your logic, akechi would be widely seen as a villain, unforgivable, horrendously terrible? well he most certainly isn't. he's one of if not the most beloved characters by fans. his relationship with ren is more often than not read as romantic, and it's practically treated as canon by a large majority.

and like i previously stated, i am not saying the mlm example i've given is without issues - akechi/ren is highly sexualized and fetishized. it's just a very DIFFERENT problem from the vilification that wlw characters often receive. and i am not saying that mlm are NEVER vilified. i am simply saying the large, overarching trend in fandom is to be forgiving of men, and unforgiving of women.

i simply do NOT see mlm ships get the same treatment in this regard to wlw ships. sora/riku from kingdom hearts and catra/adora from she-ra have...practically the same narrative in many ways. childhood friends separated by a worldwide conflict, becoming enemies, fighting each other multiple times, arguably with intent to kill, eventually saving each other and finding a way to reconcile in order to emerge victorious against the true villain. riku and catra are strikingly alike, as are sora and adora. but riku is once again a fan favorite character. and catra has received backlash after backlash after backlash. i hardly even post about she-ra anymore and i STILL get people in my inbox talking about catra discourse!!

again, i'm NOT saying the script is never reversed. there's not really anything to be won by making absolute statements like that. i'm just saying that i have never seen it, and even on the odd chance that i do it's never as severe.

once again - yes mlm characters face backlash. no one is saying they do not. but it is different backlash. i am specifically discussing the fan reception of wlw characters and ships bc that is my personal experience. different problems do not equal better problems.

i'm tired of bad faith interpretations of my posts. unless you want to have a respectful and thoughtful conversation (which i AM open to), don't come at me with boldfaced accusations.

#anon #long post #disclaimer: i conferred with my roommate who is mlm for the general reception of the characters and ships mentioned

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theorynexus · 4 years

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Yeah... somewhat to be expected. This is why it would have been best to return with her early. And... yes, Home is a fluid, complicated concept. That’s why they say it’s where the heart is. That’s why this must be so difficult for her.

“I,” he says. Disgusting. I don’t really have all that much in the way of energy to comment further on this. I still don’t see how it could have been possible for Dave to fail to stop him, though. Certainly, it wouldn’t have been without narrative interference. It feels natural for there to be a little bit of a time skip, here, by the way... . The amount of leverage that fact gives Dirk is making this feel like it’s losing its coherence and mooring in factual plausibility, though. It’s strange. For some time, the characters have had sputtering fits of being closer to real people than gods who have the minds and hearts of real people. I drift now into the future of the tale, uncertain how invested I shall be in this dubious canon. (Now I understand the vague wording on the top of wiki pages, which if clicked would presumably lead to the epilogue or post-epilogue version[s] of the characters’ stories.) However, I will attempt to pursue the reading as logically as possible, and puzzle out what I can that interests me and might interest you. Perhaps this is just a logical result of my crying. I always seem to have somewhat muted, dour emotion after I am done with it.

Ugh, gah, this truly demands some sort of reversal by means of dramatic irony, some time in the future.

***eyes twitch with frustration***

***facepalms and groans***

Sad, sad, sad. Dirk treats politics as if it’s just some amusing diversion for him to “win” at, unrelated to and unimportant to his greater goals for the most part. He just wants to dominate everything. I am actually beginning to pity the fool, and not in the trollish meaning of the word.

I look forward to seeing what those changes are. Also: Yeah, it’s sortof natural that Roxy smells a bit like Dave. I will not begin to speculate on that Legacy of Responsibility~ Oh, hey, Dirk recognizes the same thought/defense as I do. What a shock.

***laughs weakly, for I truly do enjoy the mockery of SSJ3 and its monologue on Goku’s part, but am not feeling it fully*** Oh, umm... and good for Roxy, trying to figure things out.

Surprisingly moderate of you. Glad she’s finally got shades~ Have fun on the Archimedes... or the Daedalus... or... let’s see, what was the actual name? ***remembers that it was plastered on the side of the ship in poor penmanship, along with stupid-looking scribbles on the side*** Theseus. ***flips him the bird*** Screw you and your disinterested, petty garbage, you ignorant, horrible calamity incarnate!

Heh heh... heh.

That’s very nice of them both...~

Eh...? In dorkiness, or because she’s mean instead of sweet, or...? ***sighs***

That is creepy but also very sweet. I’ll actually approve of this. As for that... the question of whether she’ll wake up is definitely an important one. I sortof imagine that she miiight wake up right after Dirk blasts off, so that he’ll be just beyond Alt!Calliope’s influence, somehow, when that happens~

Sounds like Calliope’s getting visions of Gamzee. Could be wrong. The nudity factor is very intriguing. This is all very, very intriguing, in general, and I think it’s probably very important for the future. Their drawing paintings on the walls doesn’t seem too terribly bad, though. They’re a very artistic person, and having some sort of major awakening like that after the revelation of Alt!Calliope’s revival poses a very... curious probably-not-a-problem for their (collective) future(s).

Good to hear that most of it is nice and cute. THAT SAID... Terezi should take this as an opportunity to investigate, and to bring things into proper order. A criminal investigation is at hand!

Okay, then, you’re the Seer of Mind. I’m sure you’re a better judge of such choices than me.

Ahhhhh!!!~ Please answer the phoooone! >^< Also, that’s a silly thing to think. I’m sure that you’ve talked to more people than that. Like Dave. Man, her mind is sortof messed up, right now.

(Hehehe~)

Well, I wouldn’t call The Furthest Ring “The Medium,” but okay. You probably haven’t been thinking about these things for quite some time. That’s alright. Also: Pffft. (I really do hope that, like Doc Scratch’s inability to see past pockets of void such as those around Equius, this shall in turn cause Dirk a great deal of consternation in the future, when she does something important.)

Mind. Lies. Facade. She is grieving. There’s no need to fault her, here.

Feels like this is a mock reflection of Hussie and the Homestuck fandom on various different levels.

Dot dot dot. Seers being able to hear the voice of the narrative like this = quite logical. It is much more interesting that Terezi is able to sense that Roxy is trying to express masculinity that way, though, when Dirk seems to be struggling with the comprehension and coherent expression of Roxy’s gender. It’s quite funny to think that Terezi could act as a messenger from Dirk to the characters otherwise involved in the story, like that, though.

***eyes narrow a la the Fry meme, for I am not sure whether this is suddenly sincere (and probably somewhat sexist) or sarcasm on his part, and unreliable narration*** (Probably more likely to be the latter, though~)

***slow blink*** I appreciate that she recognizes this as nonsense. Also that she is speaking for the audience, here. I also also really quite do appreciate Roxy’s affinity for Silence, every now and again, which is a thing of Void.

Neither of these are very nice thoughts to put into words. Very petty of him. And he most definitely should not be trying to stop her from finding a way to create a home for herself there, even if she, like John, had/s trouble embracing the place. >:

Yeah, I’m not sure that they’ve ever talked, either, outside of these narrative interactions. I am at least willing to hear him out, though. I sortof have to be, or otherwise quit. I don’t feel like abandoning Homestuck right now, sooo...~

Oh, so you want to have her come with you on the Theseus and maybe figure out a way to revive him later, huh? Well... that could certainly be interesting, though I sortof have doubts that it would work out. Hmm. : |

This is why I accused him of orchestrating Egbert’s death. He’s just exploiting it now to his ends like the piece of garbage that he is inevitably suggests by nature that he would. Ugh... . (Also, interesting that he can choose not to let her hear his narration, or indeed to let her do so. I assumed in fact that he had been purposefully having her do so from the start, given the fact that he’d shielded her from the noise at every point since she met Egbert [Calliope interlude not included], but still, interesting.)

#Homestuck Epilogue #Homestuck Spoilers #Homestuck Liveblog #Depression #Meat Epilogue #Dirk Strider #Terezi Pyrope #John Egbert #The Aftermath

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