#overall I don't think we're at a point where queer characters should be killed

[transpidergwen]

Been thinking very hard about Charly's sacrifice and how that relates to Bury Your Gays. I want to preface everything with YMMV and it's completely valid if you're upset. In my opinion, Charly's death worked.

BYG is a set of tropes: when a characters's death is for shock value with little to no long term impact. Usually their death isn't about them and they have no agency in it, it's purpose is to inflict pain on their love interest (a main character) or to motivate another character, often for only a few episodes, often a straight man. There is also the element of creator bias, when they are aware how much that character/that relationship means to the audience and either ignorantly or maliciously choose to inflict the pain of killing them anyway. Arrow, The 100, Person of Interest, ST: Discovery, Supernatural and Killing Eve are the ones I'm most familiar with, but there are hundreds of others. Charly's death fits none of those criteria.

Charly had agency in her sacrifice. It wasn't a stray bullet, it wasn't pointless; she saved the galaxy and prevented genocide. Her decision was a reflection of her devotion to the ideals of the Union, even if she felt conflicted. The belief that all life has value, that even if it's your enemy and you have every reason to hate them, *genocide is always wrong*. That's what Charly decided. That was her story and her choice, no one else's. Consequently her actions have changed the course of the entire central storyline for the show. Her sacrifice *mattered*.

Contrast that with the Orville's Thursday counterpart, Strange New Worlds, which also killed a minority character in episode 9. It was pointless and he had no agency in it. A shock value death after the stakes of the episode had already resolved. It added nothing to the episode or the overall narrative. He wasn't even mentioned in the subsequent finale; he was disposable. In a lackluster and rushed funeral scene he got a short by the numbers speech about how he helped Uhura find herself, because his death wasn't about him.

Or go back a few years to another Trek when Discovery killed Hugh at the height of BYGs. Another pointless, shock value death that accomplished nothing except making Paul miserable.

The Orville has built up to this moment for three seasons. The episode was a culmination of every major storyline for the show, and the paradigm of the story has permanently changed because of Charly's actions. It's a tricky business killing any character in your story. It has to feel both too soon and inevitable, and making sure it matters to the narrative is something the majority of shows fail to do. This counts ten fold for queer characters. The Orville is a rare example that has met that threshold for me. To write off Charly's sacrifice as BYG is to imply that it didn't matter, and it did.

#BYG is still a very big issue in media right now #but it's rectangles and squares #not every queer death falls into those tropes and if we say they do then it loses all meaning #overall I don't think we're at a point where queer characters should be killed #but I think it's important to recognize the difference between when it's done well and when it's not #anyway that's my two cents #the orville #the orville new horizons #the orville: new horizons #the orville spoilers #star trek: strange new worlds spoilers #the orville 3x09 #charly burke #my angry lesbian saved the world

[valyrfia]

I really like some of the takes and overall people sharing their opinions in a safe sort of way/space.

I also love how I can trace your point of view not only on lestappen topic but on shipping in general and rpf specifically.

I think sometimes people forget (maybe due to their age or inexperience) that Max and Charles are real life human beings with high stress level jobs and who are public personas as well. If people think about themselves as nuanced individuals they should think the same way about these two too.

Like don’t get me wrong I enjoy analyzing their interactions, I do read fanfiction and always reblog a good gifset or post but I also realize that what I spent my time on is not a true reflection of reality.

Thus I don’t expect them to be publicly smooching every race weekend on camera.

They are just guys doing their job, they seem to have some type of feelings towards each other and they might as well be aware of it but even if it is so we are not gonna know about it probably. Not while they are active F1 drivers at least. And honestly? We are not supposed to know about it. It’s called private life for a reason.

So yeah I’m kinda glad to know that there are other tumblr users with similar opinions on sexuality, personal stuff and shipping and I hope the majority of the fanbase is sharing them.

First of all let me just say this is one of the kindest asks I've gotten, thank you so much <3 I love that you feel I'm curating a safe space for everyone involved

But yeah, I'm an old hat at rpf so I'm pretty good at the cognitive dissonance required to distinguish between the Max and Charles the super famous F1 drivers and the Max and Charles that we cackle about here, which is why I'm pretty straightforward about the fact that I don't like talking about their irl partners or speculating on their sexualities. It does take practice, but I think it's a really vital skill to have if we're going to talk about them. I've been involved with 3 or 4 rpf ships in my time and they get sour quickly unless we explicitly set some boundaries for ourselves.

Also let me play devil's advocate for a moment, let's say either of them are anything not straight. Imagine how absolutely terrifying that is, in an extremely high-stress sport that's had no high-profile non-straight people that competes in countries where being gay can get you killed by law. A grand majority of the fans would change the way they see you, probably some of the higher ups would too. Tabloids would hound you relentlessly and it's likely some people or their families in your circle would shun you. There is no way you would even think about the possibility of being openly queer in an environment like that. Whatever their sexualities are is their own private business, which is why I explicitly refuse to speculate. It's important to distinguish feelings from sexuality here. You can speculate on someone's feelings without speculating on their sexuality or how they identify.

That being said, fic plays by different rules (apart from the partners bit). I think fic can use these characters of Max and Charles to explore some really interesting theses on sexuality and how it would fit into the sport. It's still important to keep in mind that these aren't the Max and Charles that exist here in the real world though, they're characters based off of them.

#i'm not going to get into the age old 'is rpf actually morally wrong' discourse everyone has their own opinions #but what we can and should do is set some good boundaries #lestappen #anon #also this ask genuinely made me smile to receive thank you anon

[hatchetation]

Not sure if you are a Killing Eve fan, but since the series finale I find it hard to not lose hope for #kacy. I know they are completely different shows, but I can’t help but want to be guarded. With the recent leaks of Whistler turning down a promotion and the “needing tissues” for the last few episodes, it makes me worry.

I guess I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Whistler gets shot and Killed and Lucy starts dating a dude. I don’t want to think like this, but we’ve kinda been conditioned to.

I keep telling myself they know what they have with #kacy and Whistler is a popular character, but the above ending seems to be the norm, no matter the popularity.😩

Awww I really feel you on this! I'm not a Killing Eve fan (years ago I tried to watch cuz I love Sandra Oh, but I had nightmares) but I have certainly seen that they pulled a shitty "Bury Your Gays" trope in the final ep of the whole series?? And honestly, I always feel it deeply when a lesbian/wlw character is killed off for no good reason, even if I'm not in the fandom.

So, I totally get why you're feeling guarded about NCIS: Hawai'i and why you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. I do think one of them is gonna get injured and we're going to be left on some kind of cliffhanger at the season finale. But I do /not/ think one of them is going to die. And actually, I don't even think the cliffhanger is going to be about if one of them is dead or alive. I think it'll be more along the lines of, are they back together. There are a few reasons I think no gays will be killed in this season finale:

It's the show's freshman season--I imagine the finale will have the whole cast together at the end toasting each other or making some joke about being back in action soon. Like, the vibe to me is overall light and I don't see that COMPLETELY changing in the last few eps. Now if we were in season 2 or 3, I might think differently, but we're not.

This show knows its fanbase. Truly, they know that #kacy stans are a huge chunk of their viewer base and are driving views and engagement. Most shows are very aware of their financial bottom line and I don't think they'll ignore that the gays are raking in $$$.

They're not done with Whistler. They've definitely noted that fans love Whistler and imo have even within this season expanded her role. I think they're going to continue expanding her role next season and hence--they're not killing her off.

This is my last point and imo it’s the big one: there are queer women involved in the production of this show. Idk if that was true for KE (maybe it was) but when I watch this show, I can tell that queer women are involved in the writing and wardrobe (lol) and I'm feel sure other areas of production. I know for a fact that EP Jan Nash is a lesbian. This does not mean that I trust them not to fuck up somehow or to portray #kacy exactly the way I think they should be portrayed but it does mean that I think they probably know about the Bury Your Gays trope and are going to avoid it.

That's my reasoning about this! I know we have all been burned before and very recently (where's that meme that's like..."Number of days since a lesbian was killed on tv [0]"). But I don't think this season of NCIS: Hawai'i is going to end in gay tragedy. And if I am wrong my little gay heart will be very broken.

#yeah but when writers tell me i should get tissues ready i too am like...this is gonna be a shit show #but i'm hoping that's not for the FINAL ep #long post #kacy #ncis hawaii #lucy tara #whistara #kate whistler #lucy x kate