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bestworstcase · 2 months

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I have a question about some of your Salem thoughts

If Salem is 110% certain that she can take down the Gods (assuming that's her goal since we don't actually know), why wouldn't she communicate her plan to Oz? Especially if she truly doesn't want anyone to die like you say. Oz would jump at the bit if Salem said "Hey I want to stop fighting" since that would mean their shadow war would stop. I really don't think Oz likes the Gods either, and even if he's afraid of them, if *Salem* is that confident she can stop them (she's far from an idiot), I'm sure he'd at least hear her out (which would tell Salem a LOT).

If she's that confident and truly doesn't want to fight, why wouldn't she tell Oz her new plan? And why would she kickstart her plan by attacking the kingdoms/Academies? Surely she could find a way to steal the Relics without flat out attacking them (like sending in double agents to take the Maiden powers)? Like... she would've known she'd get people killed, including children and innocent people. Even if she did damage control (which I think is just strategic, why bother going after people if she's focusing on the Relics? She's not gonna waste precious time and resources), she surely knew people would get caught in the crossfire.

Don't get me wrong, I like what you bring to the table!! Your posts are thought provoking and unique. But I can't see Salem being somehow secretly good. I don't think the show is setting her up that way, and I think she's a fantastic villain, so from my own perspective, doing that kind of twist would be a disservice to her character. I don't think she's inhuman or a complete and total monster who should go, but she's definitely not a good person especially if she can't communicate that she supposedly doesn't want people dead. She seems to be an "the ends justify the means" kind of person, and the show I think has stated that that isn't a good mindset i.e. Ironwood.

Sorry, I rambled and completely strayed from my point 😅 I don't mean to be mean if I come across that way. I hope my ask is interesting or thought provoking though :P

my position is that salem is right, not that she’s secretly good—that is an important distinction. i think she sees the gods clearly for what they are, thinks the divine ultimatum repulsive and unjust, wants remnant to be free, and believes that humanity is transcendent over their creators; she also, quite plainly, does not have any compunction about doing whatever it takes to achieve her ends and while i do think she is still fully capable of and driven by love, she is so TERRIFIED of being hurt again and so CERTAIN that no one could ever care for her that when she does care for someone else it comes out in very, very twisted and often cruel ways. she’s not good, she’s not nice, she’s just right.

equally the heroes are good but not right, because they have yet to really grapple with the premise of the divine mandate (that humanity as it exists right now does not deserve to exist) or their own role in upholding it (their immediate goal is survival, but when they envision the ending of this war they imagine salem driven back and the relics squirreled away again in hope of at best everlasting stalemate). the point of structuring the narrative this way is that neither side can get to the proverbial good ending alone; they need to work together, salem’s ends with the heroes’ means.

like. she’s evil. lol. that’s not in question and i think it goes without saying that she is doing evil things so i don’t feel the need to make a “but she’s still evil though” disclaimer every time i try to tease out what’s going on in her head. notice how my reaction to salem razing vale was OH GLINDA LAYS SIEGE TO THE EMERALD CITY, WE’RE REALLY IN IT NOW and not, like, shock or dismay that salem would do such a terrible thing. brgdfjs

(i DO think she has mostly been trying to avoid ozma and not reciprocating the shadow crusade against her prior to about fourteen years ago and that she isn’t about wanton destruction or killing for the sake of it; and in that sense i think she’s not as bad as the general fanon reading. but that comes with the territory of thinking she has actual reasons for doing what she does as opposed to being, like, a genocidal lunatic.)

anyway. to your questions. the short answer is she’s just as scared of oz as he is of her.

“but he’s the good one!”—think about this from her perspective for a minute. set aside your opinion of her and oz, presuppose for the moment that i’m correct on her motivations, and consider what everything ozma’s done in the last few thousand years looks like to her.

she knows that the gods were monsters. she witnessed them slaughtering the whole world and she saw how little it mattered to them after. she was alone for millions of years, and then hated and feared for thousands of years because she didn’t look human. all that suffering because the gods are punishing her for praying to them. yes?

then ozma returns to her, somehow. he doesn’t explain how or why—maybe he tells her he just doesn’t know—but that’s alright. what matters is that he’s here. he asks what happened to her, and she tells him the truth: the gods ended the world. cursed her. killed everyone. she was alone for so long. (maybe not the whole truth: there are things she’s afraid to say, because the gods did it all to punish her, and it’s her fault, and she’s so scared that he’d despise her if he knew everything. the only reason for her to fear ozma would reject her is if she blamed herself. you don’t hide things out of shame if you don’t feel ashamed of them.)

they learn each other again. fall in love all over again. things are finally okay. they fix up her house. they’re happy together. one day ozma tells her that he’s worried about how divided people are. she wants so badly to make him happy; she would move mountains for him. salem herself has no interest in ruling over people as a god—if she did, she wouldn’t have been living alone in a rotting shack in the middle of nowhere—all that enthusiasm is for him. to support what he wants.

they build a following, found a prosperous kingdom, start a family. four children! how long do you think they were married—ten years? twenty? and the whole time, the whole time, ozma was keeping these secrets from her. that the god of light, who’d condemned her to eternal suffering for praying to his brother, who’d shown utter indifference to the deaths of millions, had sent him back to redeem humanity FROM HER SINS, from what SALEM did. that the point of all this is cleansing humankind of her defiance and inviting THAT MONSTER to remnant to judge whether this world deserved to be subjugated under the brothers’ tyranny again or else be put to death.

imagine how she must have felt when ozma finally told her the truth, knowing that the first thing she told him was that the gods ended the last one. imagine the sickening realization that their whole marriage is built on a lie, because she would never, ever, ever have agreed to help him unite the world if she had known what he sought to unite them for, and ozma knew she never would. that he deceived her! manipulated her into serving the will of a god she knows to be a monster!

and even then—even to the very end—she loved him enough to try. she was willing to forgive all of that and figure out a way to move past it together, and the only thing she asked was that he walk away from his task of submitting this world to the judgment of THAT MONSTER. and he wouldn’t do it.

there’s a gap we don’t get to see, in between ozma backing away from her and salem catching him leaving with the girls, but we can infer that ozma walked out of that room and salem didn’t. imagine how she felt. ten years, twenty years, however long it was, and he was lying to her through it all, and he left her with hardly a moment’s hesitation when she refused to help him enact THAT MONSTER’S retribution against herself. because that is, ultimately, what this is all about; humanity is found guilty by association with her.

imagine how she felt. used. worthless. duped. like a fool for ever trusting him. did he ever love her at all, or was that a lie, too?

when she caught him in the hallway later that night, they both attack each other in the same instant. ozma remembers her attacking him first, but their volleys meet in perfect symmetry and right before salem throws her first bolt of magic, her eyes flicker down in surprise as she tracks the motion of his staff (which we see in the previous shot)—salem remembers him attacking her first.

because they were both so tense and scared and angry at each other that they snapped in exactly the same moment.

their battle is so intense they blow up the castle, and when the smoke clears, salem is a pile of ash. ash! he incinerated her! imagine how enraged you have to be to burn someone to ash. that level of fury, of absolute hatred of her, is literally burnt into her memory as the last thing he did to her before she managed to kill him, inextricably twisted around the guilt and unbearable grief she feels for her children.

he’s dedicated all but a handful of his lives since then to getting rid of her. finding a way to destroy her. (how far is he willing to go? what would happen if salem tried to move on, find community and solace somewhere far away from him? would he come after her? would he follow his god’s example and go after the people she cared about to punish her? is she willing to risk that he might?)

do you think salem understands why ozma did any of this? she doesn’t. she doesn’t get the luxury we do of jinn narrating his side of the story and showing us the anguish he felt, wanting so desperately to be with salem but eaten alive by terror of dooming the world for his happiness. she doesn’t know.

all she knows is how he treated her: the secrets, the deception, the manipulation, the immediate and absolute rejection when she told him no, the explosively violent anger at the end, then centuries upon centuries systematically erasing her from history and enforcing her exile whilst searching for the relics he needs to summon his god for the final judgment. which she knows will inevitably end in the annihilation of the whole world and yet more torture for her with no hope of reprieve, because if all of this was not enough to satisfy the god of light’s grudge against her for, again, just praying to his brother, nothing ever will.

salem feels about ozma now the way blake felt about adam. why did he lie to her, why did he use her, why does he keep coming back, why won’t he just LEAVE HER ALONE, hasn’t she suffered enough, hasn’t she been punished enough, when will it be enough—and intertwined with that, she is being EATEN ALIVE by the conviction that no one could ever truly care about her or feel for her or want to help her or think that she deserves help or even just see her as a person, because if ozma—ozma, the one who saved her from her father’s tower, who knew her and loved her before all of this happened—if ozma thought her so worthless that he would rather serve a god who ended the last world and promises to condemn this one too than suffer her to exist at all in this world, why the fuck would anyone else be any different?

thousands of years later, she still flies off the handle when anyone lies to her. (except cinder. but cinder is always the exception, to every rule.) there’s a reason she recruits the kind of people she does—desperate, broken, angry people starving for something she can promise to give them if they make themselves useful to her—and it’s because she does not believe that she can get anything better than strictly transactional relationships with people who have literally nothing and nowhere else to turn. and when she actually cares about someone? she fights herself tooth and claw over it because she desperately doesn’t want to open herself up to more heartbreak. look at how erratic and cruel she is with cinder.

it’s not rational. salem is smart and very, very tactically shrewd but she is making all of her plans and all of her choices from the assumption that she is and will always be alone in this, because she is unlovable, because she is worthless, because she is the reason this world is damned. and she’s terrified of ozma because to her everything he does suggests that his conviction and dedication to the god of light has never wavered. she cannot see his doubt. she cannot see his misery. she cannot see how much he misses her and desperately wants to make amends. all she can see is that he’s zealously guarding the relics and spreading his god’s word and training children to fight and die in the name of keeping her exiled.

why doesn’t ozma just go to her and tell her he wants to make amends? because he’s terrified she’ll never forgive him and terrified that he’ll damn the world to annihilation if he follows his heart. they’re the same. they’re exactly the same.

but this is also what makes it so possible—even easy—for salem to undergo a villain-to-hero arc, because the only thing that needs to happen is a spark of real hope. that someone, anyone, could really care about her. like. the things she says in her soliloquies about the transformative power of hope? “even the smallest spark of hope is enough to ignite change,” and “it’s true that a simple spark can ignite hope, breathe fire into the hearts of the weary…”—that’s her. one small reason to hope. that is all she needs to change.

she doesn’t want to be razing kingdoms to the ground or cutting a bloody path through children to get those relics. she is willing to do it because she truly, genuinely, from the depths of her soul believes that it’s the only way to free herself from the torture she’s been subjected to for millions of years. she’s driven to this by desperation. she won’t keep doing it if she’s given a reason to feel less desperate.

but she does need to be given a reason, first. she’s hemorrhaging. this is why the winnowing of her inner circle and the split between everyone else in vacuo versus salem + cinder + summer in vale is important; Those Two are the ones she cares about—technically we don’t know for sure regarding summer yet, but the level of trust she has for the lieutenant holding beacon is suggestive—and that being reciprocated is what ignites her hope.

#she IS a fantastic villain #but what makes her so compelling as a villain is all the contradiction and tension in her character #how deeply she loves vs her deep conviction of being unlovable. not wanting to hurt people vs believing it’s the only way to free herself.#everything she does is so intensely personal and so circumscribed by the fear of rejection #these opposing forces drive change because they are pushing and shoving against each other inside her mind and the moment of culmination #occurs when one triumphs over the other. and then she changes in what i expect will be a startlingly dramatic fashion #(that doubles as writing advice btw if you want to write dynamic character arcs put unreconcilable contradictions in your characters)

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hyperfixation-tangentopia · 1 year

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Ah ha, I've got a question for you :3

Who's your favorite LMK villain (aside from Macaque)?

Okay fair restriction XD

LBD. Without a doubt. She was my fave next to MK on first watch.

The scenes where someone attacks her and she does nothing but they just stop is chilling. Her scenes with Wukong are FANTASTIC. She's facing someone who's taken her down once and can fight and beat GODS with so much confidence. Her scenes with MK are BETTER. I have a thing for manipulative villains and DAMN the way she gets into MK's head HURTS. I think the only reason I don't like her more is because I'm too emotionally attached to the characters and try to ignore just how TERRIFIED she makes MK. She has ONE SCENE with Red Son and in not even 5 minutes she emotionally drags him through the dirt before PHYSICALLY YEETING HIM.

OH YEAH I HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THAT FREAKING POSSESSION

ALL OF THEM

So first one DBK! It lasted one episode so not much to say about it EXCEPT NO THERE'S A LOT TO SAY ABOUT IT

FROM HOW IT LOOKS LIKE SHE'S AFFECTING HIM BEFORE SHE EVER ESCAPES to HOW SHE EMOTIONALLY DESTROYS RED SON

SORRY SHE HAS TWO SCENES AND WRECKS HIM IN BOTH

Okay and then THE LITTLE GIRL (Bai He? Something like that? Fanonically?) I KNOW SHE GETS 0 CHARACTER BUT TO POSSESS A LITTLE GIRL TRYING TO GET HER CAT? COLD LBD. COLD.

Okay and apparently I can't go one ask without talking about Macaque BUT HER ABILITY TO TAKE A CHARACTER WE'VE ONLY EVER SEEN CONFIDENT AND SMILING TO FREAKING OUT AND IN CHAINS IN SECONDS IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING. DOWN TO ACTIVELY KILLING HIM WITH HER POWERS BECAUSE HE WILL EITHER GET IT DONE OR DIE TRYING. I WILL NEVER GET OVER THAT.

AND THEN THE OBVIOUS. WUKONG. FREAKING. POSSESSED. WUKONG. FROM HER HOLDING HER OWN AGAINST HIM NOT AT HER FULL POWER TO NOT MORE THAN 10 SECONDS OF A FIGHT? HIS COLORS PHYSICALLY DIM WHEN HE'S POSSESSED. AND THE FACT SHE HELD HIM FOR SO LONG DESPITE HIM OBVIOUSLY FIGHTING BACK, WHILE ALSO PICKING AWAY AT MEI AND HER MECH? SPREAD TOO THIN SURE BUT THAT'S STILL ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL.

POSSESSED WUKONG IS PROBABLY THE MOST TERRIFYING THING I'VE EVER SCENE THAT I DON'T TALK ABOUT. FUCKING STONE-COLD (no pun intended). THE THREATS? THE TAKING OUT RED SON IN A SECOND? WITH FISTS IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY?? THE STALKING THROUGH THE SAMADHI FIRE TO GET MEI? THE ICE AND TELEPORTATION? ALSO GETTING WUKONG TO DESTROY NEZHA AND FLING HIMSELF AT MK WITH 0 HESITATION? I CAN'T HANDLE IT.

AND THAT'S SAYING NOTHING ABOUT HIS FINAL FIGHT?? FLINGING WUKONG AT MK, AGAIN, 0 HESITATION, AND THEN DESTROYING MACAQUE AND THROWING HIM ON THE FLOOR, ONCE AGAIN, USUALLY SMILING AND CONFIDENT AS ALL HELL. AND WUKONG ONLY BROKE FREE AT THE LAST SECOND AND HE STILL WASN'T RID OF HER COMPLETELY????

I CAN'T. DEAL. WITH THIS WOMAN.

AND SHE FOUGHT SO GODDAM HARD TO STAY ON HER TRACK, BROKE THROUGH MEI AND WIELED THE SAMADHI FIRE, AND EVEN WHEN SHE WAS DYING SHE WASN'T FUCKING DONE.

WHO WOULD I BE IF I WENT ON THIS RANT WITHOUT MENTIONING IT.

"That pursuit only leads to one thing."

"Uh-huh. To destiny, right?"

*Small, amused smile* "No. To pain."

WHAT. THE. FUCK???

I LOVE THIS WOMAN AND SHE DOES NOT GET ENOUGH CREDIT. SHE MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY DESTROYS MOST OF THE CAST DOWN TO WUKONG HIMSELF, DODGES DEATH MULTIPLE TIMES, NOT EVEN TO MENTION THAT CHILLING SCENE IN THE CELESTIAL REALM, AND EVEN HER DEATH WAS JUST THE FINAL BLOW TO EXPLOSIVES SHE'D BEEN SETTING OFF ALL SEASON.

LADY. BONE. DEMON. NEEDS. MORE. CREDIT.

SHE IS AN AWESOME AND TERRIFYING VILLAIN. NOBODY EVERY DIRECTLY SAYS "SHE'S SO POWERFUL" (THAT I REMEMBER) AND THAT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED TO. EVERYTHING SHE DOES, EVERY MOVE SHE MAKES, EVERY AFFECT SHE SETS OFF, IS TELLING TO HER POWER. NOBODY NEEDS TO STATE IT BECAUSE IS IT SO. PAINFULLY. CLEAR.

THE HOPELESSNESS AND FEAR THE CHARACTERS FEEL GOING UP AGAINST HER? IT DESERVED. IT'S REAL.

Anyway thank you for the opportunity to rant about the character I for some reason have so much trouble getting myself to ramble about. Anyway. I love the monkies so much and they glow in those first three seasons but LBD? LBD ran it.

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