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alyona11 · 1 month

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Ok time for my big Hadestown hot take and that’s that West End Hadestown doesn’t give you a 100% Hadestown experience. It’s still ridiculously good and 100% worth seeing, don’t get me wrong (I used my opportunity and saw it twice and will likely see it again if I’m in London), but it kinda made me realise a couple of things about OBC production that will always be my Roman Empire and make me deeply upset Broadway is too greedy to give us an OBC proshot.

So, here are some of my thoughts and reflections based on seeing Hadestown live on West End + seeing different versions (including London National theatre proshot) in boots. I think you can pretty solidly say that in Hadestown there are 2 main stories: Orpheus/Eurydice and Hades/Persephone. And even though arguably Orphedice is the main most important story, it my opinion it also wins from Hadesphone story being strong. Which works perfectly in OBC due to Amber Gray and Patrick Page delivering a very deep nuanced performances as their characters.

I think part of the success of Hadestown when it works on its fullest is how it creates a very deep emotional journey. And I feel that regardless which pair of Orpheus and Eurydice you have (if we take Broadway/tour/West End take on the characters) it’ll still work! Like you need to try really hard to mess up orphedice the way people wouldn’t root for Orpheus or wouldn’t empathise with Eurydice because they are so relatable and cute. You instantly love them, they are so so lovable. So orphedice part is one thing in Hadestown that imo works if not always then in 99% of the cases.

Hades and Persephone’s part of the story in the contrary is VERY hard to nail on 100%, in my opinion, and this is literally driving me crazy. Maybe seeing Amber Gray and Patrick page in professional recording awoken some feelings in me, I don’t know. I will state straight away that I also do enjoy other actors’ takes on characters and I do see some very interesting character moments there and there. However, I keep returning to the thought that Amber/Patrick’s characterisation works SO WELL for the main narrative. I’ll try to explain why I think so. Consider it my love letter to the OBC.

First and foremost, I feel like Hadesphone story has a very fine dynamic that the actors have to nail, so you would feel that: 1) these two still love each other; 2) these two are buried under their problems and see no way out, only a miracle (aka Orpheus and his song) can save their marriage.

And if the first one usually works at least due to Epic 3, the second one, imo, often (at least partially) falls victim to acting/directing choices which can cause troubles with point 1 as well. I think one big thing I’ve noticed is that often Persephone’s alcoholism gets forgotten in the acting performance. Like yeah sure her choreography includes drinking from a flask but in comparison to Amber you never get a feeling that she is absolutely wasted. Which, is in my opinion something that you should feel when you’re watching the show and something I was constantly forgetting about when I was watching the show on West End. I feel in Amber’s performance you can constantly see that her Persephone’s feel good attitude is a façade of a broken person who knows that her marriage is going to hell in front of her eyes yet she is too passive and hopeless to try to make an active change (well, she does try in Chant and nothing happens), so her only way is to chase the sense of normality that the “medicine” gives her. But when she is alone, if you get to catch a moment when people are not looking at her, you can see a deep sadness under her positive front and her memory of the old days when everything was more simple. Nevertheless, the main point that the lyrics literally say is that Persephone is blinded by the river of wine. And this is crucial to her character and her relationship with Hades because the story states that even though Hades is a problem and he is an active actor in creating more problems, he is not the only failure in this relationship. Persephone needs to be woken up from her apathy almost as much as Hades does and this is something that we see during If It’s True.

From Hades’ side I feel like it’s not a good decision to make him a total villain because when he is irredeemable you don’t feel like the whole “song that will fix the world” has any chance of working long term. I think Patrick nailed a deep antagonist very well. His Hades is weird and lowkey creepy and alien. He does objectively bad things but when you look at him you can’t stop thinking that he doesn’t operate in regular human logic or morality. When I look at him in Chant, it feels to me that his words about building stuff to impress Persephone are absolutely sincere, and I can absolutely see that his Hades doesn’t understand why she is so upset about it when his intentions are so so clear. Maybe it’s my vision but even before Epic 3 when he is so far gone and buried in his projects and messed up ideas I don’t have a single doubt that Persephone is a single motivator and goal of Patrick Hades’ life and that he literally doesn’t need any other being to care about. And tragically this fixation is what makes him blind to all other things he does even if those things ruin Persephone’s life (and other people’s but tbh I don’t think he cares).

I feel like by removing Persephone’s Chant 2 verse Hadestown created more problems for Hades and Persephone part of the story making it a much harder job for the actors to prove to the audience that Hades and Persephone have a chance to make their relationship work. Like I get that maybe it was a necessary things to do (even though I think the show is much better with it) but it made it so much harder to empathise with this particular part of the story unless the actors use the choices that work in the narrative. Because for example when I was watching the show on West End part of me was wondering “what is Persephone’s deal in all of that, what does she win by staying with Hades?” With the verse, and with Broadway Previews or London 2018 in particular this part was clear: Persephone still loves Hades and believes that he has the opportunity to change and become a better man he used to be. Without the verse, however, the actors should give you the same idea during the show which is a hard task considering Hades and Persephone have only 2 big conversations together (Chant and How Long). So apart from those songs there are only subtle mostly silent moments they get together through which the actors have to convey the same thought which is hella difficult and probably hardly will be appreciated by anyone apart from the people who sit closely.

So, maybe because in the actor combo I saw (Zachary and Lauren), I got a feeling that even though they were great separately, I didn’t feel much chemistry between them as a pair. I think, Persephone seemed pissed and tired of Hades all the time until How Long and I didn’t feel that she still believes in his willingness to change. And Zach Hades despite being entertaining, kinda gives the impression of Hades who has other options, he is not into Persephone enough. The only sparkle appears between the two in Epic III which is still cute but I’m not sure if it works just as well if that’s the first time you see the show? Also considering Zach Hades gives more malicious intent in His Kiss, The Riot it seems that he is not even slightly interested in Orpheus having any opportunity to succeed with his quest. Which is not bad, don’t get me wrong! But in comparison to Patrick who is deeply self projecting into Orpheus to the point where you could see that even though he doesn’t want to let him go, part of him does because it would prove he too could succeed in his challenge of waiting for Persephone, this take seems a bit lacking. And overall because of His Kiss, their promise in Wait For Me doesn’t seem as giving much hope that the story won’t repeat itself next Sunday. Which in its turn makes Orpheus’ sacrifice feel a bit… worthless. If on Broadway, when Orpheus turns, but spring comes again you feel like it is the start of something new: hopefully a kinder and softer time. On West End the show also wants you to feel it but when you think about Hades and Persephone you feel…less certainty that this sacrifice will have a long term effect?

I guess the creators wanted to concentrate on Orpheus and Eurydice more and forget about Hades and Persephone by making them more secondary story or maybe there was a lack of director’s involvement to give the cast some hints on how to make this particular part of the story work better, but it feels to me that in its current state the show works in its 85% power which is still great but once you know there is something missing you can’t stop thinking about it and wishing the show would give you those 15% you crave.

#me being me #hadestown #thanks for coming to my ted talk #I still immensely enjoyed the production and would come see it again #but when you know the show at its fullest you seem to miss some parts that worked better #also I was able to appreciate the same cast from different angles the second time I could see them from the first row so I could #get a clear view of their acting #and don’t get me wrong Zach and Lauren are really interesting to watch and I liked them #but also I started thinking if it was my first time to watch the show would I understand the appeal of Hades/Persephone line?#and I can’t stop thinking about it #hades #Persephone #hadestown broadway #hadestown west end #it’s also not about WE only but just about some characterisations I saw from different actors in different productions #I just felt like it would be fair to compare to the production and cast I saw life because obviously bootlegs even the greatest are not #the same #thanks for reading this long post

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artheresy · 4 months

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My dynamic for Dan Feng & Yingxing

Hi hello, I said I would finally post this after long debating over if I show it here first or in my fic first, but fuck it. That’s a long ways away and I need to rant about them because they take up too much space in my brain.

So this post, isn’t me claiming that this is the canon dynamic between Dan Feng and Yingxing or that this is the only right one or whatever. This is purely my own view of what I think their dynamic would be based upon how I see their individual characters with the little bits and crumbs we’ve been given so far in HSR. I can’t go over every single aspect of them here because I just purely can’t think of every single thing so this is primarily going to be talking about the fundamental key parts of my interpretation of their dynamic! If that makes sense, I’ll hop right in

Be warned, this is pretty fucking long, I think so much about them it actually hurts me physically, like it’s painful. This is me just letting my autism run while talking about two of my favorites, so be cautious… sorry in advance if some areas turn into tangents, again I think about them so much its actually too much I think about them too much

AGAIN, THIS IS MY VIEW OF THEM!! Based on the characterization we have so far which isn’t a whole bunch, this is my interpretation of their relationship based on how I view the bits of characterization we have and what we know about them

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Okay so one of the biggest and most fundamental parts that influences how I view their dynamic and the course of their relationship is looking at how exactly and why exactly I think they became close. Jingliu in her companion quest says:

I think this statement she makes “to see someone so arrogant get along with someone so proud” is actually the foundation of why they get close and their dynamic works rather than an obstacle that they somehow overcome. Specifically, I think that it was Yingxing’s arrogance (partially genuine and partially a habit born for the sake of his own survival) that allowed the two of them to get close. When we see lines from Yingxing via Dan Heng’s memories or via the Mirage Echo, though he uses Dan Feng’s proper title, he seems to talk rather casually to him. Even in a tense situation as secretly being in Scalegorge Waterscape for research would seem, Yingxing still is very lighthearted and in some languages, even laughs a little as he banters with Dan Feng. I have my own headcanons for why he has this casualness to him, but either way it’s a genuine part of him and a part of his canon characterization. I think that casualness, a product of his confidence/arrogance and maybe a little of his obliviousness as well, allows for them to get close. It evens the playing field, Yingxing sees Dan Feng as his equal, as a person, as Dan Feng rather than as his position of Imbibitor Lunae High Elder of the Vidyadhara. I could speculate all day whether or not other people had treated him similarly before and he shot it down (there’s a lot of the actual evolution of the dynamic that I will write I swear), but I think there was something very unique in that casualness that Dan Feng might not have experienced before, not from anyone else, not from the other members of the HCQ he had met before. Perhaps even Yingxing’s background would play a part in how shocked by his behavior DF is. Either way, it is that casualness, that equalness unlike he had ever experienced before, mixed with all of Yingxing’s other characteristics such as his cheeky nature that manages to quickly break down Dan Feng’s walls and make him feel compelled to grow closer to YX. Whether their first meeting was via Baiheng and Jingliu or a chance encounter before they eventually join the HCQ, Dan Feng is coming away from that shell shocked by the sheer audacity of this short life species, feelings he first interprets as offense before he realizes he’s actually amused/interest in him, and Yingxing walking away like “Huh? That was the High Elder I guess. Seems nice, a bit stiff tho!” There is no worship of Dan Feng from his side for any reason, not for his skills, not for his position, not even as an unattainable ethereal beauty situation. He views him as just another person, an equal, and no part of him views DF in this cocky “he’s not unattainable bc I already have him” kind of way because…

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Another fundamental in my personal interpretation of their relationship is that Yingxing doesn’t truly seek anything from Dan Feng nor does he ever necessarily try to pursue him. And all of this isn’t in an insecure “We’d never work” kind of product of overthinking way of choosing not to pursue him. Rather, it’s primarily because Yingxing doesn’t feel the need to. He doesn’t need his romantic feelinhs to be satisfied or fulfilled especially with the difference in their lifespans. As long as he can be by his side and stay close with him until his time comes to an end, Yingxing is truly perfectly content with that. A lot of this additionally stems from a certain place. That being that after he gets to know Dan Feng better and learns of the sheer pressure he endures due to his position, the choices he feels he’s forced into, the level of restriction, even with all of the influence Dan Feng still has, he doesn’t want to be an added source of pressuring or discomfort. To sum it up, Yingxing leaves the ball in Dan Feng’s court so he can act as he sees fit when he feels like it. There’s an added layer to this also of Yingxing not wanting to ruin the current state of their dynamic (a topic I’ll get into more). In the end, this is just yet another part of Yingxing that utterly pulls Dan Feng in. He is very used to being distrusting of others and refusing to get close to many people, primarily out of wariness of the potential ulterior motives people may have when befriending him. Contrastly, Yingxing doesn’t expect or even want anything from Dan Feng even the closer they get. Dan Feng can see that, and it makes him trust in Yingxing. Makes him trust to the point that he feels comfortable enough to make attempts pursuing Yingxing himself rather than meeting at a stalemate, refusing to go after a man Dan Feng knows won’t chase him as to not risk pressuring him and bc he’s fine with how things are. That isn’t to say though that Yingxing won’t respond to any attempts Dan Feng makes first though, because he absolutely will. Well… that is if he can recognize any attempts from Dan Feng at all because he can be rather oblivious in the face of people making advances at him-

An added part to all of this is that Yingxing with the way he acts, both in general and in this specific regard, ends up being part of what helps influence and encourage Dan Feng to do more to take what he wants, actually follow his desires in certain aspects rather than keeping up his stiff outer image and denying himself of everything for that sake of his position. The HCQ in general all have influence helping Dan Feng open up more like this, seizing things instead of either waiting for things on a platter or never having them. However, Yingxing's bold nature is definitely the strongest factor as he ends up helping Dan Feng learn to identify what he wants for himself. Whether that want is something as complex as moving forward in a relationship when not only has Dan Feng had very little experience with close connections to others, but also is so accustomed to the stillness of long life, or something as simple as taking breaks and time to himself to live and breathe and experience life moving around him. It's through Yingxing (and the rest of the HCQ) that Dan Feng learns to be more selfish. It's through all of their care and kindness and love that Dan Feng learns that he too is not merely a pillar to stand tall for his people. That he is a person with needs and wants, and it is perfectly fine to be selfish and prioritize yourself at times.

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So that previous section got into a little bit of Dan Feng’s trust in Yingxing, but what about Yingxing’s side of things? What about his trust in Dan Feng? I dunno what it is about him, but I feel like Dan Feng is the kind of person who can hear some of the deepest confessions and see the barest parts of the heart of someone he cares about and not treat them any differently like as if they are fragile y’know. Like Dan Feng is the person who Yingxing, out of all the HCQ, can truly confide in because he knows he won’t be seen different or treated in a drastically different way. Ultimately, Jingliu isn’t someone he feels he can go to for super emotional things which she likely herself knows she wouldn’t be able to help much with, Jing Yuan and him have a very light hearted joking dynamic that makes changing the tone and breaking the mood for a deep heart to heart much harder so he doesn’t often do it, and Baiheng… well, deep down Baiheng still sees Yingxing as that disheartened little boy, who had lost everything and was being told that there’s nothing he could do about it given his lifespan, that he couldn’t avenge what he had lost. If Yingxing were to tell her how he honestly truly feels about everything in his life, the traumas he still hadn’t overcome or the thoughts that plague him every day, he knows she would end up fretting over him, mother hen style. Being overly cautious as if his mind is made of glass, and as much as he loves her, he hates the idea of her changing how she treats him because of just how much she cares for him in turn.

(It’s a trait I see Baiheng having as to it being an obstacle in her other relationships like with Yingxing but works well in her relationship with Jingliu, caring for her and treating her softly, not underestimating her, in a way that others are too afraid to treat the unwavering, ice cold Sword champion! Matching DF and YX’s whole situation with his arrogance and casualness)

In the end, Yingxing feels like Dan Feng is the only one he can truly trust with the deepest corners of his heart and mind without worrying of Dan Feng either judging him or suddenly treating him like a fragile piece of porcelain. Even if he were to take note of something Yingxing told him and do something in response perhaps to ease his worries or heart ache, it would never be something out of pity or thinking Yingxing to be unable to take care of himself. Because ultimately, that’s where this all stems for Yingxing. He has lived so much of his life underestimated, whether having his skills and abilities questioned for being a short life species or sometimes intentionally sometimes unintentionally having his ability to take care of himself questioned like he needs a caretaker. Something that again is partially due to again to being a short life species. What Yingxing likes about Dan Feng is from the moment he met him, he doesn’t feel as if he is being questioned or underestimated. Dan Feng makes him feel as if he is truly seen as an equal, even with their distinct difference in power. It’s a treatment from Dan Feng that serves as a response to Yingxing’s own treatment of Dan Feng, his casualness to the other man making it clear he sees him as an equal as well.

And that? Well that is perhaps the most important part of the dynamic. In canon, they both have struggles with how they are seen and treated by others based on preconceived notions about their status. Dan Feng being in a way dehumanized as he is put up on a pedestal for being an incarnation of Imbibitor Lunae, for being the High Elder of the Vidyadhara, a position that he wants to escape because of the sheer loss of identity just a role brings. Yingxing being underestimated from the moment he stepped onto the Xianzhou because he wasn’t a long life species to the point that the other celestial masters on the Zhuming borderline bullied him into doubting himself, thinking a lot about his own death, and as a young boy (not even a teen yet), literally saying “Maybe I’ll never live to see the day my parents are avenged.” In my view of them, for them to truly be as close as they are established in canon, I think that from the start of their dynamic they make it very clear they see the other as a genuine and true equal in a way that other people haven’t or perhaps, can’t fully.

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I said this before my in Aurizzm Yingxing post, but yeah, I don’t think Dan Feng or Yingxing would have come into a romantic relationship with each other with any experience at all. I know Dan Feng with no experience is a very accepted idea, and I agree with it very much given his isolated position and his proud attitude and that 100% plays into my view of their dynamic. I also however, firmly believe Yingxing came in without any romantic relationship experience too. The difference here ends up being in how inexperienced each of them are. Yingxing has had a lot more friendship experience, and he’s experienced crushes before which is how he can identify his own romantic feelings better than Dan Feng. But he’s never actually been in any relationship. He’s never had the time, he’s got his own goals in mind while being painfully aware he’s on a time limit, and let’s be real like I said before, This Man is married to his Forge. Meanwhile, Dan Feng truly hasn’t had any friendships prior to the HCQ. Knowing him and her too, I firmly believe Dan Feng and Jingliu’s relationship for example, was for maybe a few decades, maybe a literal century, just them sparring without words from time to time. So Dan Feng not only going in with no friendship experience, but I think that man also is having to recognize some new emotions and feelings he’s never experienced nor can put words to. So Dan Feng’s disaster comes in being painful aware of the presence and intensity of his own feelings… he just doesn’t have the words nor experience to recognize exactly what those feelings are. It’s an absolute disaster on all fronts, somebody pray for the HCQ who unfortunately have to experience all of this.

There’s an added layer I want to go more into looking back at the first part of why their relationship works and the thing I said about the Baiheng trait. As we saw with Jingliu admitting to her feelings towards his attitude as a child, she wasn’t… she wasn’t really a fan so to say of his arrogance. And given y’know, what we see of the people of the Luofu, I don’t doubt many people have similar reactions. Part of Yingxing’s limited experience comes not only from his own decision to not pursue anything, I think part of it comes from being for whatever reason feeling distaste for him. Whether it’s their own prejudices against Outworlders, or his bold attitude and lack of formality that makes any interest they had in him end up flying away. Which ugh, makes it even more special that this attitude of his, born out of necessity for his own survival on the Xianzhou and for his ability to move forward in his craftsmanship after all he went through, which has pushed so many people away, ends up being the exact thing that allows him to get close to Dan Feng. IT’s UGGGHHH Sorry, but I just need to scream. I NEED TO SCREAM ABOUT THEM OKAY?? THEY TAKE UP TOO MUCH SPACE IN MY BRAIN, I CAN’T HAVE A SINGLE MOMENT OF REST BECAUSE OF THEM

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Again, this is my view of them and their dynamic based upon what we have been given in game so far, the crumbs of characterization we have. God I hope we get more. This isn’t me saying this view of them is canon or anything, this is just how I view them. This is the dynamic and thoughts that have grown like mold in my head from thinking about them WAY too much.

I have so much more I could talk about, certain specific things or things that don’t even immediately come to mind right now. If you want to ask more about how I view them or have some topic or aspect of them in mind, please hit me up. Either send something to my inbox or bust your way into my dms to talk about them. I love them so much. They mean the world to me.

And honestly? I could just make two whole separate posts also just about how I specifically characterize each of them, but I think I need to let my brain rest a bit.

And don’t think about this dynamic specifically in reference to how it could reflect on their current selves because you might just end up hurting yourself like I have. GOD I HATE THEM

#okay so I have so much more to say about df/yx but i wanted to take the tags to talk about rh #i want to make a separate post about them as well mostly bc of smth ill rant about here #the arguing between rh antis vs rh shippers has devolved into such a lack of nuance from both sides that its HURTING MY BRAIN #rh anti: ‘Blade HATES Dan Heng’#yeah he does #but also its not a shallow kind of hatred #it’s a multilayer complicated hatred built on past feelings of regret betrayal and fundamentally a past love from yingxing #that is what the hatred we see (mostly amplified outwardly by the mara) is all built upon that is PART of the appeal its tragedy its doomed #it’s a loss of what was and how that influences its own unique dynamic different from df & yx #rh anti: ‘DH hates Blade’ also true but again #its become a complicated kind of dislike mixed with the shock and realization of who Blade USED to be and past memories coming back #additionally there’s a little something called character and relationship development where dynamics and characters change over the story…#rh shipper: ‘You’re saying Blade hates DH lol are we reading the same game’ YES WE ARE #YES HE DOES #He does hate him yes its a complicated kind of hatred as I already said but that doesnt erase that he does hold resentment towards Dan Heng #did none of you?? read the relic lore??#if you believe that dan heng is destined to die with blade then you believe hes apart of that ‘final funeral to the unnamed’s life and #to everything he ever hated.’ …like guys why are we saying he doesnt hate him at all #it outright flies in the face of blade’s character to say he doesn’t hate him like HELLO? it’s just a complicated hatred #not nonexistent and like seriously the hatred again adds to the appeal of their dynamic #their tragedy lies in how their past forms were once close and through a shared sin plus some stuff to inspire Blade’s vengeance that #that relationship has been completely destroyed beyond repair under the weight of their sin #love replaced with an eternal hatred and remorse a betrayal grave enough to spark such violent revenge #is what makes rh appealing! makes their dynamic interesting and that dynamic developing further as threads of their past still linger but #alas arent the same as before fundamentally changed and unique to them again MAKES IT INTERESTING AND TRAGIC!! esp knowing blade will die #yingxing #dan feng #xingyue #renheng #honkai star rail

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