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motherofstarklings · 5 years

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8.04 confirms that Jon and Sansa will not end up together

This is upsetting, I know, but from what we see in the episode and what we know of the leaks, it's pretty clear Jon and Sansa will not be together.

Firstly, we are shown that Jon and Dany still want to be together, despite knowing the truth, but also that Dany wants the throne more. She makes it clear that the only way they can be together is if Jon doesn't tell anyone, and highlights Sansa here particularly as the person Jon can't trust with his secret. This is negative foreshadowing, not only for Jon and Dany's relationship but also for Jon and Sansa's, especially as we see her "betraying" his trust once she finds out.

They also make it clear repeatedly that Jon does not want the throne, and neither does he want to go South. In fact, he wants to leave WF and go even further north where he's sending Ghost.

Whatever conflict is set up, and it is set up, if Jon is the one to kill Dany, he will not move past the guilt. And I don't see him forgiving Sansa either, even though her "betrayal" was necessary, because he "never wanted any of this" (yes we know, Jon).

The iron throne may get destroyed when Dany burns KL, the 7 kingdoms may get their independence, and Sansa may end up Queen in the North. But Jon doesn't want any of this, so if Sansa is QitN, why would Jon need to rule? With both Cersei and Dany gone, where is the threat to his life? There is none. He will instead give up all his claims and both his identities (Stark and Targaryen) and move to the wall, where he will take over Edd's position and become the 1000th Lord Commander.

Again, Sansa becoming a ruler is foreshadowed heavily, but a political marriage between them is not, and neither does it become necessary if Jon gives up his claim. The only way Jon and Sansa could get married is if it was a political union (only acceptable reason for people to be okay with it), and as that is taken out of the equation and Jon won't even be at WF any longer, he is not in any danger from any Targ haters, and there will be no need for an alliance and no need for Sansa to protect Jon. This is the bittersweet ending that was promised, where Sansa gets to achieve her destiny of being queen and Jon will fuck off like we all wanted even though it will break our heart when he does.

Both Jon and Dany are fan favourites, and Dany even more so than Jon. If Jon ends up being the one to kill her because she is a danger to society, they will show him punishing himself for killing the woman he loves (he does love her, they can't show Jon killing Dany and also show that Jon doesn't even care about her, that's not the story they are telling here). They will not show him getting married and getting a happily ever after, and as sad as that makes me, it's the truth and we need to look it in the face.

I love Sansa more than anything and I wish her happy ending could be with Jon, but from what they've set up, there would be no happiness with a Jon who can't move past the guilt he feels and for yet another woman he loves dying in his arms. This Jon we've gotten for the past 2 seasons has been pretty OOC in any case, and I really do believe we will get no resolution for why he feels like a faceless man emulating Jon. It's breaking my heart to write this, but it is what is it is I guess.

#game of Thrones #jon snow #sansa stark #jonsa

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thelawyerthatwaspromised · 6 years

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idk if you've already answered this, 'if' sansa and jon end up together before the parentage reveal jon will automatically because the stark name since sansa is the highborn.. but after the reveal how would that work like customs wise can he give up the targaryan name? sansa taking the name? like this probably isnt such a big deal.. but i wonder even though to me no matter the names will always be starks

You sent a follow-up ask where you said nevermind about this but..

I still wanna answer!

There’s a general sentiment that Jon is legitimized so if he gets married, his wife must be Targaryen.

But for more than a hot minute my opinion has been that, in the Doylist world, Jon has always wanted to be Jon Stark and Sansa has been fighting almost all series to be Sansa Stark. So ending up married with the name Stark is fulfilling from that angle. It would also guarantee that Jon and Sansa’s children are known as Starks and J&S keeps WF in the Stark lineage. All good external reasons for Jon to end up as a Stark.

From a Watsonian perspective, there are two main reasons I think Jon could end up Jon Stark. The first being that I think it will flatly be very hard to prove that Jon is a Targaryen from an official/legal standpoint.

They’ll have Bran’s visions and Sam’s parchment paper sure. Maybe even Howland Reed pops out of the Neck with a first hand account and a harp. But it’s still tricky proving a kid belongs to two dead parents without DNA etc.

Jon could most definitely have his Targaryen-ness “affirmed” by marrying Daenerys. Then there’s be no question about it and even if there were legit legal questions about it, marriage solves the issue. In the same vein, if Jon were to come into conflict with Daenerys - I doubt Jon would want affirmation as a Targaryen and I doubt Jon could get affirmation as a Targaryen through Daenerys anyway.

This leads my other in-universe reason for believing Jon ends the story as Jon Stark: it’ll serve as a total repudiation if House Targaryen. If Jon’s lineage is known but unverifiable (which has happened before ex: Joffrey & Tommen were known to not be Robert’s sons but nothing could reeeeally prove that and they were in power already or the fact everyone seemed to know Ramsey killed Roose but everyone that knew the truth just agreed to the lie about Roose’s death) then Jon may still be called Jon Snow before he were to marry anyone but still be viewed as the best choice for the Throne with royal blood. As Westeros’ most eligible bachelor, he’d surely have a highborn lass who would marry him but I doubt very much he’d take any other last name save for one: Stark.

Being Jon Stark is the first thing Jon ever wanted. He punished himself for wanting these things as he never viewed himself as belonging to the family due to his birth. He viewed himself as a stain on the honor of Ned.

Now, all the sudden, he gets to see his role in the restoration of House Stark from a completely different perspective. He IS an outsider by his birth - but in a way that actually enables him to have all the things he never could have when he was the bastard of Ned Stark. Marrying Sansa as Jon Snow and becoming known as Jon Stark gives Jon what he’s always wanted and reaffirms Sansa’s status as the Lady of Winterfell in a way that no other character combination can do for either character.

You might be asking yourself: “so what the heck is the point of RLJ then? You go on and on about it’s importance, but he’s still Jon Snow here! What gives?”

My answer for that is that RLJ will be most important for the effect it has on the people in Westeros and how they view Jon.

I expect Dany to probably at first be elated that she’s found a Targ to create her vision of home atop the Throne. It’ll fill her with a false hope. Because she’s under the assumption that Jon is in love with her…which was setup by Political!Jon in S7.

Uh oh.

Jon didn’t plan on being a Targaryen. Now he’s got Dany resting her entire vision of the future with him AND his refusing that shared future now puts him squarely into the “threat” category if Dany ascends the Throne and Jon does not. If Jon were to have children with anyone else they would be a direct threat to Dany’s line (if she has children).

It’s a mess. As a Targaryen Jon must be with Dany or he and any offspring are a threat in perpetuity. Then let’s say that Dany gives Jon reason to break their alliance - suddenly Dany’s entire vision of her future starts crumbling and the person she thought she loved becomes the biggest obstacle for her getting the only thing that would remain to her; the Throne. Terrible no good very bad situation for Dany.

To Sansa, Jon becomes the most trustworthy, kind, strong, and worthy suitor she could have imagined. They didn’t grow up closely as siblings but they’ve developed a trusting partnership that has confused savvy characters like LF and Arya who both doubted their commitment to one another only to find out otherwise.

Sansa will have a way to remain a Stark, for WF to be in good hands once she and her husband were to pass, and to have a personal fulfillment in finding a brave, gentle, and strong match that represents the True Knight she always hoped for. This wasn’t possible so long as Jon was viewed as Ned Stark’s bastard. The pieces wouldn’t fit because the two would never allow themselves to marry as half siblings.

As to the rest of the Realm, RLJ adds to Jon’s bona fide resume as a candidate for king. Even as Jon Snow he possibly could be chosen - but even Robert relied on his 1/16th Targaryen heritage to bolster being chosen as the king.

So while Jon-as-Targaryen may never be definitively proven, it certainly would add to lend legitimacy to his reign if he were chosen and popularly supported by the people. If Cat can throw around the Tully card long after marrying Ned, I see Jon being able to do the same even if he is a Stark married to Sansa. Jon has made friends with nearly every person who might ever have a lordship by the conclusion of the TV series and Sansa has made allies of the rest (the Vale) or she has blood ties to the others (Edmure Tully and the Riverlands) to the point where Westeros should be rooting for this pairing.

Their union makes a peaceful and prosperous “after” to the war possible. This can’t really happen with a Jon/Dany pairing and it can’t really happen with Jon as Ned’s bastard as it would preclude a Jon/Sansa marriage.

So yeah. Jon Stark 2019. Buy some stock in it now!

#jonsa #jon stark #jon x sansa #king and queen in the north #anti-targaryen restoration

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fedonciadale · 6 years

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According to the clichéd belief, Ice and Fire represent Dany and Jon. The "song" meaning romance (I guess). Or the "coming together" of opposite heroic forces to create peace and make babies. If ice and fire also represent different things in the story, like R+L=J, does that mean that the "song" also implies that the dragons (fire) and the white walkers (ice) will bond, fall in love, have babies, and make the world a better place? Ice and Fire = true love, peace strength and unity?

Dear nonny, obviously the people who interpret song of ice and fire as meaning “Jon and Da€nerys happily ever after” have not considered that GRRM really likes to have multiple meanings for the images he envokes and that ‘song’ indeed might mean several things. I would say that for once Ice and Fire obviously can mean different things and a romantic involvement of Jon and Da€nerys is only one (and not the most likely interpretation). As multiple people have pointed out, Dany is 100% fire, while Jon is only 50% ice and 50% fire, if ice equals Stark and fire equals Targs. But apart from math, to claim that the books is really just about two persons diminishes the depth of the characters and the other families. GRRM himself said that you can’t really reduce the series to Jon and Da€nerys and if you do that, that you lose 90% of the story... Ice and Fire are more the dangers that threaten Westeros. The land of always winter, the heart of winter, the others is as dangerous as the summer that has no end, the Lord of Light, the insufferable heat and Rh’llor.

Also the ‘and’ of course does not need to be understood as ‘coming together, but it can be understood as the perpetually seperated forces that balance the universe, and if they come together or one get the upper hand the universe ends. Like two serpents eternally circling around each other. So fire and ice would be more like yin and yang, both important for the spinning of the world, but they can’t merge. This is what I think is far more likely.

And then there is the word ‘song’. Of course song might point towards harmony, but it can also mean the intertwining of two motifs, that together make a fascinating piece for listening, even if the motifs are set against each other. The epics of the Early Middle Ages often have the title ‘song’, just to give you one example, the rather notorious ‘Nibelungenlied’ translates as song of the Nibelungs, and although love plays a part in this epos, war and strife and death are even more important. It is one of the stories that ends because every major character is dead....

So, to all the words that make up the title of ASOIAF you can attribute quite a lot of meanings, and since GRRM loves his multi-layered interpretations I think it is safe to say, that the title of the series has several meanings, and I would say that only one of these meanings pertains to Jon, and Jon alone by the way, because Jon is the son of the union of a Targ and a Stark (his is the song of ice and fire). But I would argue that this saying of Rhaegar is only a part of the truth, and that the song of ice and fire is more. The opposites that spin the world, the opposites that needs to be balanced, the opposite forces that can’t be allowed to get out of balance, Ice and Fire could be love and duty, the opposing motives every of the main characters has to adress. It could be love and hate, mercy and revenge, hope and despair, and every other of the pairings, that are important for the main characters.

To me love and duty makes more sense than the others, because both are important and it is not as if one is better than the other, while it would be easy to pick between hope and despair.

Love and duty have to be balanced as well as the extremes of the supernatural magical sides of Westeros (Others and Winter against Summer, Rh’llor and dragons).

I am quite sure that most of the main characters have to decide where they stand in the conflicting sides of their respective arc’s “Ice and Fire”. I think for Jon this will be love and duty, for Arya mercy and revenge, for Tyrion probably his own goals versus a common good, etc. And I think only the characters who find a balance will survive the series or contribute to the survival of humanity.

I’m convinced that Mel or somebody else will try to recruit Jon for the side of ‘fire’ and that they will want thim to become Azor Ahai and sacrifice a human being. And Jon will do the only sensible thing in regard to prophecy. He will ignore it, and he will choose love over what others see as his duty - to safe the world via human sacrifice. And this will be the right decision, because Rh’llor is not the good vs. the Other’s evil, but an extreme magical being, that has to be restrained. And therefore Jon rejecting the prophecy will find the duty within himself and not what others think what his duty is. It might be that at least for Jon in that moment love and duty (as in duty to reject a demand of human sacrifice as means to an end) are one and the same. I do think that a decision between mercy and revenge awaits Arya. I do think that it will be Arya’s part to end the revenge arc of Lady Stoneheart in the books. I do hope, that it won’t fall to her to kill her, but I’m certain Arya is meant to stop her.

So, when all is said and done, there might be an element of harmony of ice and fire or rather the temporals merging of opposites in the arcs of the main characters, but I’d say that it will be far subtler and more philosophical than a baby withe 75% fire and 25% ice on the throne!

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Song of Ice and Fire #What does the title mean?#Anti-Jonerys #ASOIAF means many things #Song might mean strife #Every character has his ice and fire

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aryas · 7 years

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Targ Restoration Rant (aka I made the mistake of venturing into the pro -Targaryen tag & discourse)

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t'strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." --- Ygritte, ASOS

Clearly, GRRM has never painted Cersei x Jaime or Craster x his daughters in a very favourable light. But suddenly, incest between the 2 good and heroic guys (though the jury is still out on Daenerys) of the story is a-ok? Is it because they are a couple of magic übermenschen and are thus above morality and law of nature? Am I supposed to think GRRM now advocates for incest? But only under certain conditions, only when it involves the special and God-like Targaryens? Why do fans suddenly rejoice about this and wish for a Targ restoration? What kind of fresh hell has this fandom turned into?

[Cut for length]

Their main argument seems to be

Jon and Dany are nephew/aunt which is not considered incest in Westeros so it's all good! No one would bat an eye because even outside the Targs, there are cases of avunculate marriages.

And then they bring up the two known cases; Jonnel x Sansa Stark and Edric x Serena Stark. The former was (probably) a purely political union without issue. The latter did yield heirs but Serena was the daughter of Edric's half brother, so they weren't as closely related (same goes for Sansa, who was Serena's sister and Jonnel's half brother's daughter). Both probably happened for political/practical reasons and to solve major succession issues as Rickon Stark & Jeyne Manderly had two daughters but no male heir.

This comparison is not a very pertinent one because a marriage between Jon & Daenerys would be neither purely political nor practical as they are already involved and supposedly in love. Additionally, what kind of political gain would there be for either of them if we assume Jon's true parentage will be revealed publicly, combined with his ostensible betrayal of bending the knee and falling for a "foreign whore woman" (from the Northern lords' viewpoint), resulting in the loss of his already tenuous hold over the North or the election of another KitN or QitN? Over the last few seasons, the show dropped numerous anvil sized hints about how unwelcome foreign leaders are in the North, especially Targaryens. The Northern lords were already ready to unname Jon because they deemed he'd been away too long. It makes little sense that a Jon x Daenerys marriage would placate them post R+L=J unless they inexplicably decide to suddenly support what would essentially be the restoration of a dynasty they despise. It would also mean R+L=J and Jon's actions in season 7 (i.e bending the knee to a Targaryen, consorting with said Targaryen while being a secret Targaryen himself) would have little to no long-lasting effect and any conflict it caused would be resolved by a marriage that would have happened anyway if Jon had remained Ned's natural son.

Jon wouldn't need Daenerys if he decides to pursue the Iron Throne since his claim trumps hers. What's more, the people of Westeros are more likely to accept him as king of the 7 kingdoms over Daenerys given his Stark blood and the fact that he was raised and groomed for leadership in Westeros. He could potentially have the loyalty and allegiance of the Starks and their bannermen, the Wildlings, the Reach (through Sam), the Iron Islands (through Theon), the Vale (through Sansa and Sweetrobin) and possibly the Riverlands (through his Stark cousins' Tully heritage), in contrast to Dany whose sole remaining Westerosi ally is Jon. If they were to support a Targaryen candidate for the Iron Throne, I think they would favour Jon alone (or you know, married to someone who isn't a Targaryen conqueror).

And while Daenerys could absorb Jon's claim (and potential allies- though again, why would they support Jon x Daenerys over Jon on his own?) and make hers stronger by marrying him, she doesn't need him to lay claim to the 7 kingdoms either, what with her dragons and huge armies. Moreover, an "alliance" - if you can call giving up your kingdom as such - already exists with Jon seemingly having pledged himself to her and Daenerys naming him Warden of the North. She would have been better off marrying someone else to extend or strengthen her control over other regions and territories if there weren't so few candidates left on the show. The most logical way to strike an alliance would have been to marry Jon while he was KitN, pre parentage reveal, but for some obscure reason, the show completely bypassed this option.

But R+L=J turns everything upside down and Jon, once revealed as a trueborn Targaryen, would need to marry into a Northern house if he wants to keep/take back his kingship of the North. Marrying Daenerys would only strengthen his ties to the South and house Targaryen, which would be counterproductive and work against the desired outcome- uniting North & South or two major Houses.

In short, neither party would truly benefit politically from a marriage if Jon's parentage is made public and/or he ultimately loses the North, which is very likely. This is particularly true for Jon. Only Daenerys could somewhat profit from a political union but it would be at the risk of becoming Jon's queen consort in practice if not on paper (something I doubt she would accept) and, more importantly, it would be opening a whole can of worms given the stigma of Targaryen x Targaryen unions.

Because no matter of how (un)common and (un)acceptable avunculate marriages are in the universe of Westeros, Targ restoration fans usually ignore the fact that it wouldn't be just any nephew/aunt, it would be a full Targaryen union, which would have wholly different connotations for the people of Westeros given the fairly recent trauma of their reign. A reign that ended with a mad king whose madness is believed to be hereditary and blamed on generations of close interbreeding. I doubt the people of Westeros would readily accept a Targ power couple back at the helm if they have any say in it.

Plus, Daenerys' first impression didn't exactly help matters: a Targaryen conqueror with huge armies and grown dragons in tow who roasted a father and a son of a prominent House alive and destroyed the last harvest of the Reach in the beginning of winter and unwittingly handed over the greatest weapon of all times to their greatest enemy of all times and indirectly caused the Wall to fall and wants to marry her only other living Targaryen relative, of all people? The sense of déjà vu would be pretty disconcerting, to say the least.

These Pro-Targ fans also tend to dismiss the fact Jon & Daenerys are genetically closer to full siblings than aunts/nephews by claiming modern notions such as DNA conveniently have no bearing in a medieval-fantasy setting such as ASOIAF. In other words, people in-universe wouldn't realise or be bothered that Jon & Daenerys are more closely related (44-47%) than typical nephew/aunt (25%). I think they must have an inkling of the notion and dangers of consanguinity, however basic it may be, if cousin marriages are considered quite normal for the highborn while anything involving more closely related people is frowned upon or downright forbidden. As mentioned previously, even the two known cases of avunculate unions were between uncles and their half nieces, their degree of consanguinity being thus less than that of full uncle/niece and comparable to first cousins (12,5%). So people could at least vaguely understand that Jon & Daenerys share a higher degree of consanguinity than their relatedness would suggest.

All this begs the question; if GRRM wants the restoration of this dynasty and wants us to perceive this as a positive development, wouldn't he aim to improve it and stop the perpetuation of the very proclivity that precipitated their downfall and was at the root of so much suffering in Westeros? Would he "reward" an incestuous and destructive house by having it win out while others are extinct/on the brink of extinction?

If there is supposed to be a Targaryen reinstatement, there has to be a clean break from this dynasty's nefarious characteristics and habits i.e. imperialism, tyranny and incest. What would otherwise be the narrative point of Robert's (very justifiable) Rebellion and everything that unfolded in its aftermath? There should be some kind of progress. Jon & Daenerys, if they decide to take back the IT and get married after the R+L=J reveal, would mean regression. It would be synonymous with more incest, more super inbred and possibly cray-cray Targ heirs and more political (and genetic) isolationism. And with 2 grown dragons/WoMD (if they survive), their reign would equal more subjugation, intimidation and fear for the people of Westeros, even if Jon & Daenerys' initial intentions would be to create a new and better world. In other words, a repeat of everything that was toxic and problematic about the Targaryen dynasty. This scenario seems particularly unlikely when you take the author's personal anti-war/WoMD stance into account.

And lastly, this is what GRRM said about Targcest:

"The Targaryens have heavily interbred, like the Ptolemys of Egypt. As any horse or dog breeder can tell you, interbreeding accentuates both flaws and virtues, and pushes a lineage toward the extremes."

ASOIAF is a meditation on war, power and corruption but it's also a story about extremes --- wights/WW/Ice vs Fire/Daenerys/dragons, the inevitable clash and destruction they bring about and the importance of seeking balance, moderation and finding a middle ground in all things: justice instead of vengeance, sovereignty instead of oppression etc. Even Jon himself is the embodiment of the metaphorical balance between ice and fire. As such, the Targaryens/Targcest can be viewed as another extreme to be avoided. It's the antithesis of "balanced". What he says about accentuating both flaws and virtues is evocative of this famous passage:

"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

Some Targaryen fans like to think what the coin metaphor refers to is nothing but a myth but I would think the fact the author alludes to it in the above quote kind of refutes this theory. I also happen to think Jon & Daenerys each represent one facet of the coin. This analogy also effectively illustrates how unstable and inconsistent Targaryen rule truly was and could be again. Even if Jon & Daenerys end up being fair and progressive monarchs, what of their inbred children? On which side will the coin land for them? If there is anything Westeros needs after years of war waging, power struggles, political instability and the probably disastrous aftermath of the battle against the Others, it's consistency and stability.

Furthermore, the fact GRRM compares them to the Ptolemaic dynasty is not exactly a ringing endorsement. The Ptolemys were originally from Macedonia/Greece and ruled for close to 300 years over Egypt. Because they never deigned to mix their blood with outsiders and only wed brother/sister and occasionally uncle/niece and cousins, they never actually became Egyptian. Even Cleopatra was genetically Greek. They didn't assimilate with the local people, culture or language (Cleopatra being the only one who bothered to learn the language) and justified their incest by drawing comparison to Greek mythology and thus perceived themselves as Gods. The intermarriages also exacerbated feelings of jealousy and rivalry. Complot and murder within the family were a common occurrence. Aside from a couple of exceptions, they were quite inept rulers and the last +/- 200 years of their reign kind of sucked.

Sounds familiar? In broad strokes, this is pretty much a copy/paste of the history of the Targaryens. Does this sound like something we're supposed to root for? Their reign ended when Egypt submitted to Roman rule. And no, there was no Ptolemaic restoration.

#anti targaryen #anti targaryen restoration #aegony #anti jonerys #incest in asoiaf #anti targcest #fandom wank #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #an aegony political marriage #pre parentage reveal? sure. post parentage reveal? nope #got politics #got meta #parallels with irl history #*mine

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