#whenever op posts i gain +5 peace

[phoenixrisesoncemore]

But Whose Deontology?

The Untamed: three-fifths mark

OK, @thearrogantemu​ I finally had a chance to look at a non-work screen for long enough to watch some more Untamed; through episode 30 now! Oh boy. Spoilers for anyone who isn’t this far yet below the cut:

I feel like this show didn’t exactly *hide* that it was interested in poking holes in everyone’s moral system, but it did spend a lot of time... not distracting us, really, but using the other assorted comical, tender, and otherwise emotional aspects of the show to deepen our investment in these characters’ lives and choices before it started really making its moves. I suspect it wouldn’t have had the same effect otherwise.

The long run up is a pacing I’m quite the fan of from almost three decades of JRPGs that start out as light-hearted adventures about teenage angst only to turn into philosophical ruminations on God and the nature of the universe (see my favorite example: Xenogears). Even The Lord of the Rings does something... similar, albeit not intentionally on the part of the author. It’s actually one of my favorite “tropes” in storytelling: the tone shift—the moment the light-hearted and comfortingly simple reveals itself to be something much wider and deeper and which will leave you unsettled in its wake.(1)

I’m really quite impressed with Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo. Xiao Zhan manages to believably play the process of aging from arrogant and ornery but innocent and lovable “student” in Cloud Recesses, to the (still arrogant and ornery but lovable) rebellious “hero” during the Wen indoctrination, to the (still arrogant but lovable) young man forced to grow up too fast when his adoptive parents are killed, to the Master of Demonic Cultivation and head of The World’s Most Wholesome Farming Co-op (why cultivate only demons when you can cultivate turnips, too!?).(2) And he manages to play it all as believably the same character, always deeply expressive but also somehow... authentic... even when he is putting on a show: his play-acted irresponsible argumentativeness with Wen Qing; his self-infantilization whenever he wants Yanli to mother him. The latter would be laughable if we were to take it as entirely straight-faced—he knows he is playing childish, and he knows that she knows, even if he does legitimately want to be mothered. Jiang Cheng on the other hand seems to never handle the reality of Wei Wuxian as well as Wei Wuxian handles the reality of Jiang Cheng...

I understand there was some criticism of Yibo’s perceived lack of expressiveness when the show first came out, but I think he’s doing a fantastic job portraying a deeply stoic character whose emotional turmoil is buried under mountains of learned and self-enforced composure. It’s not like he’s missing beats; he’s responding, it’s just subtle. He’s responsible for two of my favorite moments so far: when he first smiles ever so slightly when he sees the lantern Wuxian has made him with the rabbit drawing(3) and the scene of him kneeling in the snow as punishment. I don’t know if it’s the lighting or the fact that it’s one of the few times he’s not carrying tension in his eyebrows, but he looks SO YOUNG in that shot. Honestly, he looks more AT PEACE in that shot than I think he does at almost any other time in the show so far. It feels to me like, in that moment, he has no regrets either about what he did nor about the fact that he should have to atone for it. Like he has internalized some sense that both things are right and can exist in tension. The weird effect of this growth next to Wei Wuxian’s feels like watching one of the two grow older (Wuxian) while the other grows younger (Wangji).

Now, I’m a sucker for every last story where two highly disparate-seeming people move from from some variation of dislike (either on the part of one or both) to friendship to, sometimes, something more (no, no BL here, none at all *looks the other way*). Certainly Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji have very different personalities. Wei Wuxian has little regard for rules, authority, tradition, taboos, or social etiquette: he uses Lan Wangji’s ming(4) almost as soon as he meets him! The way he interacts with objects and spaces (and personal space!) shows his lack of reverence/respect for the people and things others expect him to have reverence for. He has no problem questioning what everyone else seems to see as obvious up to the point of outright suggesting the use of dark magic. Because...well, why not?? Because “they said so?”

It’s not that he doesn’t KNOW the rules. Another of my absolute favorite moments is during the Wen indoctrination when Wei Wuxian starts reciting not the Wen clan principles, but the Lan clan principles! Sure, he lacks the expected respect for sources of authority be they personal or ideological, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t KNOW them. He’s obviously naturally talented, gifted, a fast learner, curious, but also—and crucially—he has a very strong moral compass! He does not tolerate bullies, especially when they turn their attention to the vulnerable, like Wen Chao.(5) Yanli notes that their father always favors those with moral integrity and who does he favor? Wei Wuxian.

And this is where he and Lan Wangji are more alike than Wangji initially thinks, and why I love that moment, just after they release the lanterns, when you see, just for a second, the surprise on his face at the content of Wei Wuxian’s prayer: that he always be able to “stand with justice and live with no regrets.” It is, I imagine, the moment when it really hits Wangji that this rebel he finds himself irrationally attracted to truly is *good* despite the fact that he shows no outward signs of respecting the same sources of moral authority Wangji does.

So what is the main difference? Where the rules come from. Who makes the rules? Both of them are pretty sure they know.

Lan Wangji gets his moment to present his source just after their rooftop duel when he catches Wei Wuxian drinking: the Lan Clan principles chiseled right into stone. All 3000 of them. Interestingly, even though Wei Wuxian can and does memorize the code and seems perfectly happy with the notion of moral principles in general, I’ll wager a guess that he is confused by the very idea that a moral code would be so strict and unchanging and inflexible that it could be chiseled into stone *in the first place* or that it would *need to be memorized*. Surely you’d just...”know?” Besides, morality is too contextual to treat this way surely?

As a CLH (Confirmed Lifelong Heretic) my sympathies admittedly lie more with Wei Wuxian than Lan Wangji. It’s not that traditional codes of ethics and conduct are bad things. These are the things that provide stability across entire cultures and peoples. If they’re written in stone, at least that means they’re something everyone has a greater chance of pointing to and agreeing on.(7) And just as Lan Wangji has to learn that there are moral codes that aren’t written in stone and that individual minds can have very clear senses of right and wrong outside of group structures, Wei Wuxian has to learn to temper his arrogance—that his actions, for however right he *thinks* they are, can and do have consequences he would not intend for those he loves, as when he stops himself from calling to Wangji during the hunt. I have a feeling he’s going to be learning more...

Then there’s that whole conversation from ep. 29 as Lan Wangji prepares to leave the burial mounds which is just full of whammies (set, naturally, against the exceedingly domestic reality of the community as a whole and their exceedingly sweet interactions with a-Yuan). Wei Wuxian says: “But let yourself be the judge of what is right and what is wrong, leave others’ comments aside, and care little about gain and loss. What I should do. I know it very well. I believe that I’ll be able to control it well.” And then there’s that moment where you can actually feel Lan Wangji’s heart drop into the pit of his stomach as he presses his eyes closed.

This is the reverse of the moment when Wangji directed Wuxian’s attention to the list of Lan clan principles, so solid they are written in stone.(8)

Then there is that wonderful bit about their respective paths—Lan Wangji’s path vs. Wei Wuxian’s path: the wide avenue vs the one-log bridge. I assume this is a literal translation of the Mandarin. Is it an idiom? If so, I may mangle its meaning terribly and for that I am sorry. But it seems to me that a wide avenue is safe, easy, populated; a single-log bridge is comparatively dangerous and only one person can walk it. Which seems a pretty good metaphor for the differences in whose rule-book each of the leads chooses. Not to mention, with my Western ears, it sounds a WHOLE lot like a “straight and narrow path.” Interesting then, that it is The Master of Demonic Cultivation who is choosing it, while Lan Wangji—with his brightness and discipline and clarity—is following the “easy” way.

So, there it is: whose deontology is the right one? How do you choose?

It’s the epistemological aspect of the question of ethics that Newbigin gets right in that quote I posted the other day. Honestly, I disagree with a great deal (like, a lot) of what Newbigin says in that book, and I think he spends far too much time running himself in ever tighter Calvinist circles, (not to mention I have little interest in missiology and am highly skeptical of evangelism). But! I appreciate that he does, at least, recognize the danger of believing we have insulated ourselves completely from uncertainty or of expecting that certainty is even a thing possible to achieve.

But where do we choose to anchor our axioms? And why? Whose deontology is the right deontology? The rules written on parchment and stone? Or the rules written on our souls? Remembering, of course, that both are fallible. 16 years in the future, will the two leads have changed their minds at all?

And now with any luck, I’ll have a free weekend in which to watch the last 20 episodes, assuming no one wants me to do adult things like house cleaning or completing design projects people are paying me for.(10)

Like how Tolkien switches register from the low and comedic to the high and romantic but you’re fully aware it’s all really part of the same story and suddenly, bam!, you recognize that those aspects of life are somehow not able to be disentangled.

OMG is this an intentional play on “cultivation”? Sometimes I can’t tell what might be getting lost in translation, and I’m certainly too ignorant of Chinese culture, mythology, and folklore to really appreciate everything happening in this show, not least of which due to the language barrier.

He is, interestingly, far more moved by it than the drawing Wuxian does of *him* two episodes beforehand—is this merely the result of the progression of their relationship? This is post-cold springs after all.

That took some research to understand!

The main “vulnerable” character that he never seems to swoop in to save is Meng Yao and I wonder if it’s because he can sense something “off” about him. I felt bad for Meng Yao at first but he always put me on edge. Honestly, is there anyone who trusts Meng Yao as far as they can throw him? *looks at Elrond* OK, anyone except Elrond?(6)

Honestly, before I started watching this I saw that one of the characters was being referred to as Elrond and I wondered, going into it, if I’d know which character it was, and then Lan Xichen walked in and I was like “oh, yeah, obviously!” Seriously, what is it about him? Is it his physical appearance? The way he holds himself? His outfit? His pattern of speaking? How is this person so obviously coded “Elrond?”

Except they don’t really. That’s never how it works.

And interestingly, when looking at his name: “Wei Ying,  Ying is his 名, meaning, baby; Wuxian is his 字, it comes from an ancient prose “喜乐无羡赏,忿怒无羡刑”, which means when you’re delighted don’t reward without restraint,  when you’re angry don’t punish without restraint. Wuxian here means exercise your power reasonably.”(9)

The richness of the world in this show really appeals to me as does the carefully choreographed costume design, productions design, and cinematography (seriously, everyone needs to dress like this all the time; end of story; I have spoken). There have been some amazing shots that I can only assume are drone footage that have been ADRed?

20 years in and adulthood still sucks. 0 of 5 stars. Would not recommend.

#the untamed #mo dao zu shi #grandmaster of demonic cultivation #mzds #tolkien #yes tolkien gets a namedrop too #he's like the linchpin of my brain

[athina39]

wowow senpai i saw that you have posts about symbolisms in your harem!chuuya fic. do you have some more? i'm interested to see if there's anything i missed!

i’m very honored (and excited!!!) that there are folks like you who want to discuss my fic ahhhhh. it gives off the feeling that i’m actually writing something really worthwhile hahaha. so thank you!!! :D :D :D

so here are some of the (major) ~symbolisms, ~themes that i added to the fic. (i may have missed some lololol pls feel free to ask me more questions :D)

- chuuya’s character song. the things i got from it are: (1) chuuya thinks that he’s imprisoned by the world (he’s a bird in a goddamn cage) - and the key to this cage is in dazai’s hand; (2) he knows that he’s imprisoned, but he doesn’t want to keep on lamenting it - he wants to keep going until the end, until he falls apart. he goes on with life, laughing off whatever’s happening to him; (3) even if he tries to “leave” his cage - dazai is there to, presumably keep him locked in; (4) chuuya thinks that even if he manages to get out, he’d rather *fall* rather than return to a cage alone; (5) he views dazai as someone who: (5a) is a view worth more than 10-billion, (5b) has the same philosophy as Kierkegaard, (5c) has said the line ‘in langour dreams of death’.

(5c) expanded - the line is from chuuya’s poem 'For The Tainted Sorrow’, so did chuuya write that line after dazai said it? or did the line actually come from chuuya himself? the line seems more in-tune with dazai’s way of thinking but it’d also be interesting if chuuya actually shares the same apathy/hole when it comes to living…?

- Søren Kierkegaard’s philosophy - so this is technically an expansion from (5b)! the guy is a proponent of a loooooooot of philosophies/ideas. the idea that i chose to expand on in the fic is about the “leap of faith”, which is, as per wiki: “No such evidence could ever be enough to completely justify the kind of total commitment involved in true religious faith or romantic love. Faith involves making that commitment anyway.” his idea is that people doubt things, but real love means that believing in something/someone, despite the doubt, despite there being no evidence that one should believe/love that something/someone. so in this fic, it’s a clash between dazai’s philosophy (the love needs no evidence) and chuuya’s (you’ve hurt me before, how do i know that you won’t do it again, you have to give me proof that you won’t leave).

other things of note about the kierkegaard’s ideas: (6) man must understand himself inwardly before his life gains peace and meaning; (7) once man is at the bottommost despair, thinking “ah, things can’t be changed”, that’s when they’ll start to be reinvigorated; (8) absurdism: in which humans try to find value and meaning in life, but are unable to find any; (9) authenticity: in which stays true to their real character despite everything that happens to them - the real self is achieved when one realizes their own character amid the outside world;

chuuya & dazai both go through this internal struggles throughout their life where they try to find their true self amidst what’s happening to them, as well as how well does their “real character” survives against the external influences (their Abilities, the Port Mafia, each other, etc).

- dazai & apples have been expanded here - but basically, there’s a lot of symbolism re: apples that are just so dAZAI

- the people chuuya’s dating all possess characteristics that (10) he likes and dazai’s also showing those traits OR has traits that are the complete opposite of dazai’s, as a contrast; AND (11) characteristics that chuuya has already. i made a table that has a list of those traits here!

- chuuya’s quest to find self-worth - since chuuya’s not particularly important to the plot (urgh), i know he won’t really get an in-depth exploration of this - but he’s just like kyouka (and lucy/q), in which since he’s fairly young, he’s had this Ability that’s super powerful, but is out of his control. kyouka’s had angst about the 35 people - and she’s had angst about her Ability being out of *her* control and is instead dependent on some(one)/(thing) else - and she’s had angst about her self-worth being killing only. chuuya’s Ability matches all of those - and to think that kyouka’s in the mafia when mori’s already the Boss - who’s considered an *improvement* on the previous Boss. based on the general timeline from the backstories, i believe that dazai & chuuya joined the mafia before mori’s the boss - so if kyouka’s treatment is already considered “an improvement”…. just think of what chuuya could have gone through before.

- chuuya’s quest for normality - linked to the self-worth quest is the conclusion to having your entire life generally weighed as your contribution based on your abilities. he’s a very strong piece on the chessboard (it’s been alluded to, multiple times, that he’s considered a one-man army; ranpo in ch49 even says that just chuuya’s joining the fray is enough to drastically alter the odds of a fight; mori says in ch…24? iirc, that chuuya’s a force that’s enough to subdue the whole Agency) so i doubt that he’s had a normal upbringing or that he’s considered normal, at all.

- Abilities being gone from the world - as a plot point, i like this setting because it gives a chance to “level” the playing field for all characters. they’d all be on equal footing - because some Abilities are so OP that it changes the game. it’s a great chance to have chuuya, whose worth has been resting on his abilities, suddenly losing something that makes him so worthy. it’s also, in a way, a good chance to have chuuya be free from dazai - without corruption, he doesn’t *need* dazai to save him. without dazai’s 'no longer human’, he no longer has an insurance, because he’s not needed to stop the powerful ability users from going berserk (chuuya, q). it’s a good way to explore how the 'tainting’ actually works - chuuya’s chant, while very chuuni, is also interesting, because is it implying that his ability is actually somewhat more otherworldly? who are these 'grantors of dark disgrace’? what happens if chuuya’s link to them is severed? it’s also, esp in chuuya’s case, a good… parallel? to how you can have something your whole life, taking it for granted, shaping your life to accomodate it, and then one day - it can just go away.

- chuuya being a good boss - port mafia is said to be a very individual-centric organization. the previous boss likes powertrips, doesn’t really care about the people as long as he gets the destruction that he needs, as long as the mafia is feared. mori calculates everything as a game. chuuya’s very different from those 2 bosses (as well as dazai, since we have the dazai-is-considered-as-next-boss thing). he cares deeply for his squad - to the point that he doesn’t mind q dying if it means retribution for his nameless redshirts’ deaths. he’s able to act differently when he’s interacting with different people (e.g. suave and deferential with mori/kouyou; motherhen towards akutagawa/kajii; drinking buddy with hirotsu/kajii and tachihara in that one chapter). he’s respected by people - the black lizard squad, who work closely with akutagawa and mori, two very frightening and powerful people, treat him with respect. yes, his temper (esp when dazai is involved) could use a lot of work, but he’s someone who could be a very good boss, who actually *knows* the people he’s working with, treats them as people, treats them as individuals who are important to the organization. (not to mention, chuuya helping the granny even tho he knows it doesn’t match being a mafia!)

- date locations - whenever chuuya goes on a date with someone else who’s not dazai… they go to “usual date places” (i use the dating/tourist spot suggestions for yokohama). whenever chuuya spends time with dazai… i try to make it so that they do more “domestic” things (they spend a lot of time in chuuya’s house, or doing things like grocery shopping, buying food, etc). my goal is to have a contrast of how chuuya’s more about “showmanship”, when he’s with others - he cares for them, but he’s expending extra effort to make it so that it’s all ~~~date atmosphere~~~, while with dazai, he doesn’t exert much effort in trying to interact with him.

- in addition to the above, of course, is the concept of home - chuuya’s lost his home multiple times in his life, where home is both a literal home, as well as a representation of a place for him to belong. he keeps on losing the place he finds stability, so he keeps on searching for it. the goal is that he’ll eventually realize that dazai is his home. as a side-note, chuuya’s never referred his apartment as his home…. yet.

- chuuya’s view of romance - i was thinking - chuuya grew up (lol not in his height tho) in the mafia. the people that we’ve seen him with re: childhood are: kouyou, dazai, mori, q. those people don’t seem very good mentors when it comes to romance/emotions. kouyou’s… the main proponent of the “we’re beings of the dark, we can’t go for the light”. &she’s got that traumatic romance thingy going on. dazai… NO. mori… NO. q… NO. so not very good influences when it comes to healthy emotions. i also doubt that the port mafia gave much weight to actually having their members learn about romance. so how would chuuya learn about romance???

- weather - so the cold weather is because (a) good excuse for coat sharing (esp since soukoku coats/matching outfits!!!); (b) sign that something “different” from normal is happening; © WINTER FYODOR IS COMING

- the tell-tale heart - edgar allan poe's short story that has elements of (a) unreliable narrator, (b) insanity vs logic. the narrator/main character in the story spends the entire story insisting on one thing, but the more he insists, the more we learn that it's the opposite of what he's insisting. a pretty good parallel for what chuuya's doing too.

- the things that chuuya mentioned in ch1 (the opera, music, etc) all have some sort of significance too :D

that’s all i can get from my notes as of the moment haha! thanks again for the ask - i’m sorry i rambled too much lol

#athina replies! #home is where the heart is #lovely soukoku fam is lovely #soukoku #♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ #Anonymous