quincy-clover

[quincy-clover]

Hey there fellow Rexxitor! How goes the tumble?

Pretty good

I like to think I make good posts

#reddit exodus #refrog #ok i'm logging off now promise

[quincy-clover]

Everyone start writing really long text posts. The TikTok invaders will literally die of understimulation when they have to read text without a tts bot for more than eight seconds

#pluralgang #pro endo #anti endo #syscourse #aspenvasion

[quincy-clover]

Here's Ableist AspenFrostEN Trying To Pack as Much Misinformation and Ableism As She Can Into One Minute:

This sentence is, perhaps, the one and only true thing in this entire video.

Oh, please do enlighten me, Aspen!

I mean, sure, created systems are a thing. Tulpas are the main example of this and the ones that have been studied the most. But there are created systems that aren't tulpas, such as in daemonism.

Also, plenty of traumagenic DID systems have intentionally created alters too, so it's weird to make "people who believe that you can force yourself to have alters" an endogenic system thing.

ALSO, basically no tulpagenic system I know actually uses the word "alter" to describe their headmates.

While most endogenic systems are plural without a disorder, it's bizarre to use this as your definition instead of just "an endogenic systems is plural without trauma" as it's actually defined.

Founded entirely on Tumblr???

Aspen, dear...

Are you... capable of reading? Here's the paragraphs you're looking at. Notice how it says natural system predated the word endogenic?

Yes, the word endogenic was first used on Tumblr... as a replacement of "natural system" or "natural multiple" that dated back to the 90s, before you were even born!

Here's one site mentioning natural multiples in their glossary in 2003:

And here's the origin in a page dated for 1998:

You clearly know NOTHING about the plural history that you're rambling on about.

And how am I only 20 second into this???

What do you consider a medical consensus again?

The World Health Organization's ICD-11, the diagnostic handbook used around the world, explicitly states that you can experience multiple "distinct personality states," the characterizing feature of DID according to it, without having a mental disorder:

That's the World Health Organization's official handbook!!!

I'm not sure what more of a consensus you need.

But I'll add that Tulpamancy is acknowledged as a real psychological phenomenon by Dr. Samuel Veissiere, psychiatry professor at McGill University.

And Dr Eric Yarbough, Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association has stated that you can be plural without trauma or a disorder in a book reviewed and published by the American Psychiatric Association.

And these claims are undisputed. There is no peer reviewed paper by any psychiatrist that has claimed you need trauma or a mental disorder to be plural.

Now, onto the next round of misinformation!

I recognize that page! That's DID-research! A glorified blog that convinced an entire generation that OSDD-1a and OSDD-1b were actual medical terms for disorders they could be diagnosed with!

(Spoiler: The aren't!)

Is that so?

It would probably be really inconvenient for this narrative if the creators of the theory of structural dissociation ALSO have said it may be possible people to form self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality without trauma, huh?

I mean, something like that would just completely destroy everything you're trying to sell and make you look even more like a hack who has no idea what she's talking about, wouldn't it?

...

...

...

This paper is by two of the authors of the Haunted Self, which I probably shouldn't need to tell you since you're so knowledgeable about plurality, is the book that created the theory of structural dissociation of the personality.

Even the creators of the theory you're citing are saying plurality could have other causes.

Wouldn't that require you to actually know what endogenic systems actually believe? Or, you know, literally anything about plural history? Or anything at all? 🤔

Now we're back to ableist Aspen having no idea what Schizophrenia is and using it as an insult. 🙄

Aspen is not hiding her intent. Her goal is to spread hate, to come into our communities and bully us.

Aspen is a liar, a bully and an abuser.

But I hope I've also demonstrated pretty thoroughly that on top of that, she also incredibly ignorant.

She's ignorant of psychiatry. She's ignorant of plural history.

Every word out of her mouth on this topic is a lie she made up, and hopes her followers will be gullible enough to swallow, because while she may act confident in her misinformation, the fact is that she doesn't know anything about what she's talking about.

#syscourse #apsenvasion

[quincy-clover]

how ya doin with the tumblr poll? sorry you found out the hard way that tumblr will rip you apart at any alleged sign of weakness. can i get you anything to drink while you wait for this all to blow over? coffee? tea? alcohol for the headache that the people who always have to be right have given you? good luck

Some tea would be nice.

At this point I'm more worried about the mounting pressure on my fanfic.

Probably some important notifications are being lost under that post which refuses to be muted, but there's nothing I can do about that.

[quincy-clover]

So refreshing to see another so open-minded and civil. Welcome to sysblr!!

I don’t understand how endos can exist. I don’t understand why someone would simply choose to be a system or how something like that could even work.

Well, in the cases when someone actively chooses to become a system, that would fall under tulpas or willogenesis. However, most endos are not intentional! Endogenic is the collective term for all system origins that aren't trauma. For example, protogenics are systems who have been plural since birth.

When it's not reduced to a trauma/endo dichotomy, we like to use "dreamgenic", because everyone (except the host obviously) originated from some kind of dream. There are probably other important subgroups I'm not thinking of, but I think you get the idea now.

I’m picturing in my head a scenario where a singlet decides to “become a system.” Let’s say they start acting like they have alters and go about their life trying to present as a recovered DID system who has reached functional multiplicity, while at the same time calling themself “endogenic” and not identifying with having a dissociative disorder at all.

Is this a thing that happens? Like, can you point to a single person who has done this? I guess this is a narrative often pushed by antiendos, but it's so strange. Yeah, I would call that faking, but that is definitely not remotely representative of the average endo experience.

To me, endos sound like religious people. I am an atheist, but I won’t go around trying to convince Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other religious people that the deities they worship don’t exist.

Well, as a religious endo, I can tell you that on a daily basis, my headmates are more visibly present and clearly perceived than God. If you tell me God doesn't exist, we can have a long theological discussion about that. If you tell me my headmates don't exist, all I can do is try to express my daily life living with them every hour of every day while wishing I could just telepathically show you directly. And point to the available psychiatric speculation, of course.

And if you tell me directly that I don't exist, I'll laugh in your face and/or quote Descartes and/or tell you to fuck off, depending on my mood.

We're happy to answer any other questions you have! Our ask box and DMs are open. Thanks for listening!

Here’s my first question, to anyone who is willing to chime in.

I don’t understand how endos can exist. I don’t understand why someone would simply choose to be a system or how something like that could even work.

I’m picturing in my head a scenario where a singlet decides to “become a system.” Let’s say they start acting like they have alters and go about their life trying to present as a recovered DID system who has reached functional multiplicity, while at the same time calling themself “endogenic” and not identifying with having a dissociative disorder at all.

My question is, is this harmful? Is what they’re doing ableist? And if so, how?

The way I see it, if they’re not actually claiming to have DID (which is so much more than just having alters) and if they’re not invading tags, support groups, servers, and other areas that are specifically for trauma survivors, what’s the harm here?

To me, endos sound like religious people. I am an atheist, but I won’t go around trying to convince Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and other religious people that the deities they worship don’t exist. To me, that sounds disrespectful…

I will tend to lash out at, say, Christians who try to force others to convert to their religion. But at this point, I don’t understand how endos are forcing anyone to do anything?

#syscourse #positive syscourse #pro endo #pro endogenic #endogenic system #endo system #endogenic #endo safe #endo friendly #plurality

[quincy-clover]

re: Aspen frost getting her followers ti post in the plural gang hashtag.

as a system who tries really hard to be the devil's advocate and see both sides, here's my opinion. we're endo-neutral, and some of your takes are good and some of aspen's takes are good. she makes a good point that system xeno origins are a bit silly. she makes a terrible point that anti endos should spam the plural gang hashtag.

I can't understand this as not a hateful attack. there's no world where she doesn't want to harm people.

for people on her side - this might sound a little silly. what does posting anti-endo stuff in a "not specifically" pro-endo tag do? it's not technically hate. most anti endos on Tumblr use their own community tags and stick to their groups (apart from syscoursers who intermingle, of course). this is okay, obviously. both sides try pretty hard to self regulate and make sure everyone is respecting each other's right to a safe space. aspen claims there are no safe spaces online. duh. we all know this. but it's mean-spirited at the very least to perpetrate hatred and aggression.

all she is doing is fanning the flames and making the discussion worse. she brings nothing productive to the conversation. the Tumblr syscourse community honestly has done pretty awesome conversations that I love listening to. but this shuts down conversations and people listening to each other and respect. there's no respect for others in her actions.

.

#aspen #aspenvasion #syscourse

[quincy-clover]

No one is completely irredeemable, always keep that in mind, but also, if someone is being really awful, they are almost certainly not going to make any massive personal change in a short span of time. Act accordingly.

Sometimes I think "remember the human" needs to be mitigated with "remember the human... might just be a bully... or a bigot... or someone who is so twisted inside that they need to hurt others to feel better about themselves."

Remembering that other people are people is great. But "people" have done a lot of horrible things with a smile on their face.

And I think sometimes we have to be willing to recognize that evil is real. That there are some people out there who are just bad and just want to hurt other people.

[quincy-clover]

It never once confirms the endogenics "system without trauma" to be real.

Ok, but I'm not looking for lack of confirmation. Of course you can't prove a negative, but you can give reasons to doubt it, which I see zero of here. And in this case, the positive can also not be proven without a brain scan, which has been underway for a long while in that Stanford Tulpa study that is yet to be published, but I'll work with what's available now. Nothing can be proven, but we can follow the indicators.

I can't disprove that there's a teapot orbiting the Sun between the orbits of Earth and Mars, but I can give some additional reasons why that seems more unlikely than a coin flip:

If it does exist, where are the pictures?

A meteoroid being shaped into anything resembling a teapot is preposterous, especially given the holes needed and that anything that small would be much less likely to hit anything.

If one was launched from Earth, we would've heard about it. Additionally, there seems to be no reason why all that effort would be expended just to put a teapot into orbit.

I can't disprove reality shifting, but it presupposes a multiverse (which is far from proven fact, by the way), and that consciousness is able to travel like that, and that the way to stimulate it is the same as dreams, but it's Different somehow. Occam's Razor cuts it away.

But what I see with endogenic systems are zero points against and people like Dr. Richard P. Kluft, graduate of Harvard Medical School and D.I.D. specialist, openly speculating about the existence of endo systems (in his Dissociative Disorders paper from 2001, page 199/13, under the Epidemiology header. I'll happily send you a PDF copy if you can't find it.)

Now granted, that paper is 23 years old, so that's almost a quarter century between then and now when there could have been some development directly against the idea of endogenic systems. But so far you have provided only descriptions of how traumagenic systems dissociate, which has no bearing on whether that is the only way to become a system.

And to be clear, when I say "system", I mean the collective of any form of plurality. If we are using different definitions or you would like a different word to be used going forward, if only for clarity, I am happy to oblige. I bring this up because you said "no one is born a system" immediately after a paragraph that has in the first sentence "no one is born with an integrated personality", so I'd like to know under what definition of "system" that makes sense.

Alright, I already have an issue with the very first link in the very first tab of your carrd.

"According to the currently widely accepted theory of structural dissociation, endogenic systems are impossible."

However, after clicking the link, I only see a page explaining how a brain dissociates in response to trauma. I do not see any evidence against there being non-traumatic paths to plurality. I do not see any line that says "Once the ego has integrated, trauma is definitely the only way to get any kind of split." Do you have a source more specific to this point, or did I miss something?

Its saying endogenics go against the accepted theory of Structural Dissociation (link)

"The theory of Structural Dissociation works off of the assumption that no one is born with an integrated personality. Instead, infants operate based off of a loose collection of different ego states that handle their different needs- feeding, attachment to a caregiver, exploring the world around them. Over time, these ego states naturally integrate into one coherent and cohesive personality, usually by the ages of 6 or 9. However, childhood trauma disrupts this process. Different ego states are left unable to merge with each other due to conflicting needs, traumatic memories, or learned action paths or responses to trauma. One coherent sense of self cannot form when the primary caregivers of the child are inconsistent, loving one moment and abusive the next, preventing healthy attachment from occurring and instead facilitating disorganized attachment."

Meaning no one is born a system, children are not considered "whole", and when theres a disruption it can cause DID (same with P-DID, OSDD, UDD, and derealization + depersonalization for good measure) develop, as inherently a trauma response for the brain to protect itself. Same with (gasp) (C)-PTSD.

Additionally in the Myths and Misconceptions part (link)

"Myth: Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is only about having multiple personalities.

Fact: DID is a disorder characterized by having dissociated parts (alters) as a result of chronic childhood trauma. While alters are the best known symptom of this disorder, they aren't the only or even necessarily the main symptom. Because DID is the result of trauma, it's highly comorbid with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and complex posttraumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD), and flashbacks, emotional numbing, nightmares, emotional dysregulation, and pessimism about the future are common."

To further add: In the ICD-11 (link)

"Dissociative Disorders are characterized by involuntary disruption or discontinuity in the normal integration of one or more of the following: identity, sensations, perceptions, affects, thoughts, memories, control over bodily movements, or behaviour. Disruption or discontinuity may be complete, but is more commonly partial, and can vary from day to day or even from hour to hour. Experiences that are part of an accepted cultural, religious, or spiritual practice should not be viewed as symptoms of Dissociative Disorders."

Even after all these. It never once confirms the endogenics "system without trauma" to be real. Plurality is a social term, not a medical one. And saying people can have DID (or subtypes of P-DID, OSDD, etc.) without trauma or meeting the diagnostic criteria is Harmful.

I thinks we deserve some chicken tenders after all these mess.

#syscourse #probably should've made this a more polished draft but i have other things to do and want to get it out

[quincy-clover]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

A huge crowd has formed outside of Columbia University demanding NYPD 'let the students go'

If you're in New York right now, please go to Columbia and join them

#palestine #free palestine #palestine protest #university protest #first amendment

[quincy-clover]

Let us suppose that the "average" horse would have equal proportions of all these parts. The degree to which each part in this poll deviates from the "average" size (20% of total) will determine how large or small that part of our horse will be (i.e a horse with only 10% in Legs will have legs half the size of the average horse).

I will draw a picture of the horse we make!

#honestly not bad compared to the usual monstrosities #refrog

[quincy-clover]

This blog is not safe for endogenic “systems” or people who genuinely believe you can have DID/be a system without trauma.

Some of you silly fucks need to go outside a bit more! Endogenics are NOT backed by medical science, I have never seen one once of proof from actual certified medical papers of such a thing existing and when I ask for such proof I either get

A) a tumblr post as “source”

B) a link to pluralpedia of all fucking sites (where its own “sources” are tumblr posts)

C) they never give a source and block me (cowards… just proves y’all can never back what you claim with actual sources!)

I may not intentionally go out of my way to bully endos but if you come into my home (dms/ask box) I will BULLY you, I will laugh at you, I will call you stupid. If you’re the sort of endogenic weirdo that claims minors are also endos or generally systems just because of a small fraction: it’s dangerous. You cannot fucking diagnose people online.

But go ahead, I invite you to come into my ask box.

#graham's hierarchy #syscourse

[quincy-clover]

This blog is not safe for endogenic “systems” or people who genuinely believe you can have DID/be a system without trauma.

Some of you silly fucks need to go outside a bit more! Endogenics are NOT backed by medical science, I have never seen one once of proof from actual certified medical papers of such a thing existing and when I ask for such proof I either get

A) a tumblr post as “source”

B) a link to pluralpedia of all fucking sites (where its own “sources” are tumblr posts)

C) they never give a source and block me (cowards… just proves y’all can never back what you claim with actual sources!)

I may not intentionally go out of my way to bully endos but if you come into my home (dms/ask box) I will BULLY you, I will laugh at you, I will call you stupid. If you’re the sort of endogenic weirdo that claims minors are also endos or generally systems just because of a small fraction: it’s dangerous. You cannot fucking diagnose people online.

But go ahead, I invite you to come into my ask box.

#graham's hierarchy #syscourse

[quincy-clover]

#refrog

[quincy-clover]

“Do you know what day it is tomorrow?”

#dateposting #refrog

[quincy-clover]

i was looking for skeleton references and found this? It just screamed Papyrus energy so I you know what I had to do

#NYEEEEH #papyrus undertale #refrog

[quincy-clover]

#give me more hair i want long pretty hair

[quincy-clover]

"When life gives you lemons" FALSE LEMONS ARE A HYBRID OF A BITTER ORANGE AND A CITRON, MEANING WE GAVE OURSELVES LEMONS