From Toei Hero MAX 57
Parad and Poppy were the main characters in the second part of the trilogy, which was the most flexible in terms of content. Kai and Matsuda's bugster team looks back on their activities in V-Cinema, which were in a sense the same as usual, or even more outrageous than usual!
A different kind of competition realized in a compilation trilogy
本作「仮面ライダーパラドクスwithポッピー」はタイトル通り、お二人が主役。初の大役を務められていかがでした?
Interviewer: As the title suggests, the two of you play the main roles in this film, "Kamen Rider ParaDX with Poppy". How was it for you to play your first major role?
僕の意識としては、ただパラドを演じただけなので、特別感は特にないんですよね。なんというか、これまで通り「エグゼイド」という作品で演じていたら、結果的にパラドが真ん中にいたって感じ。主役の自分がなんとかしなきや、みたいな気持ちもまったくなかったですからね。
Kai: As far as I'm concerned, I just played Parad, so I don't really have any special feeling. I was just playing the role of "Ex-Aid" as I always have, and as a result, Parad was right in the middle. I didn't feel like I had to do anything as the main character at all.
そうだよね。ずっとポッピーとパラドとして生活していたら、たまたまカメラがこっちを向いてて、いつのまにか作品になってた。感覚としてはそういう感じに近いような気がします(笑)。
Matsuda: That's right. We've been living as Poppy and Parad for a long time, and the camera just happened to be looking at me, and before I knew it, I was making art. I think that's how I feel about it (laughs).
申斐さんは、本作で新たに登場するブラックパラドとの一人ニ役にも挑戦されています。
Interviewer: Kai-san is also taking on the challenge of playing two roles with Black Parad, a new character in this work.
クランクインの当日とかはけっこう大変だった記憶がありますね。同じカットに2人とも映るシーンは、まずパラドで撮って、そのままカメラを固定して、ブラーックパラドに着替えてから、今度は反対側に立って…..というのをやらなきゃいけなくて。たぶん、あの日だけで4回ぐらいは入れかわったんじゃないかな。
Kai: I remember it was quite difficult on the day of the crank-in. For the scene where both of us are in the same shot, we had to shoot in Parad, hold the camera in place, change into Black Parad, and then stand on the other side of the screen and shoot... I had to do this. I think we probably switched around four times that day alone.
ブラックパラドは見た目がほとんど変わらないから難しそうだよね。ポッピーと明日那の場合は、見た目も声も喋る言葉尻も全然違うから、同じこと言ってても別人に見えるけど。
Matsuda: Black Parad is going to be difficult because he looks almost the same. In the case of Poppy and Asuna, they look, sound and speak very differently, so they look like different people even though they say the same things.
それはそうかも。演技だけでまったく違うキャラの人物に見せるというのがいかに難しいかは、今回初めて実感したかな。飛彩(瀬戸利樹)が劇場版 (「仮面ライダー×スーパー戦隊超スーパーヒーロー大戦」) で二役をやってた一ときも「大変そうだなぁ」と思って見てはいたけど (笑)。
Kai: That may be true. I think this is the first time I realized how difficult it is to make a character look completely different just by acting. When Seto Toshiki was playing two roles in the movie version ("Kamen Rider x Super Sentai: Chou Super Hero Taisen"), I thought "That looks like a lot of work." (laughs).
衣裳チェンジという部分では、"ポッピーの七変化" も本作の見どころのひとつですよね?
Interviewer: In terms of costume changes, the "seven changes of Poppy" is one of the highlights of the film, isn't it?
みなさんにそう言っていただくんですけど、私自身はこの1年半ずっとコスプレをしてきたようなものなので、コスプレをするってことに対する特別感がわりと携れちゃっていて.....。ちょっとバグってます (笑)。
Matsuda: That's what everyone tells me, but I've been cosplaying for the past year and a half, so my sense of specialness about cosplaying is rather gone... It's a little buggy (laughs).
もはやあれが私服と。
Kai: That's no longer what I call casual wear.
そうだね。ウェディングドレスも……おめでたい私服 (笑)。
Matsuda: That's right. The wedding dress is also... an outfit for special occasions (lol).
ヲタ芸もやってたよね?
Kai: You also did some wotagei, right?
やったねえ。鈴村監督から、着替えるたびに「ひと言なんか言って、なんかやって」って言われて、全部アドリブでやったんですけど、そのひとつがヲタ芸で (笑)。最初は「アイドルっぼいことを」ってオーダーだったんだけど、なんか違うことをしたかったから、監督と相談して「アイドルカルチャーとはこういうものだって勝手に勘違いしてるポッピー」という設定でやったんです。でも、ちょっと激しくやりすぎて、今回の「トリロジー」に携わってないスタッフさんのなかには別人がやってると思った人もいたみたいですけどね。
Matsuda: I did. Director Suzumura asked me to "say something, do something" every time I changed clothes, so I improvised everything, and one of the things I did was wotagei (laughs). At first the order was to do something idol-like, but we wanted to do something different, so we talked with the director and decided to do it as "Poppy, who mistakenly believes that this is what idol culture is all about". But it was a bit too intense, and some of the staff who weren't involved in the "Trilogy" seemed to think that someone else was doing it.
さすがにヲタ芸にまで吹き替えは使わないよね(笑)。アクションじゃないんだから。ってか、途中で「松田るか」も出てきてなかった?観てて「あれっ?ポッピー?」って思ったよ。
Kai: You're right, they don't use dubbing even for wotagei (laughs). It's not an action movie. I mean, didn't "Matsuda Ruka" appear in the middle of the movie? When I was watching it, I was like "Huh? Where's Poppy?"
出てたね。あそこは思わず素が出ちゃって....(笑)。
Matsuda: You were in it. I couldn't help but show my true colors there.... (laughs).
明かされる衝撃の真実そのとき演者たちは?
The Shocking Truth Revealed: What Will Happen to the Actors?
一方、今回のトリロジーではこれまで語られたことのなかった新たな過去も明かされます。
Interviewer: On the other hand, this trilogy will also reveal a new past that has never been told before.
ブラックパラドが何者か?というのもそうだし、ポッピーの一宿主である櫻子さんが顔出しするのも今回が初めてだよね。
Kai: Who is Black Parad? This is also the first time that Sakurako-san, Poppy's host, shows her face.
これがすごくキレイな人でね。なんでこの人はクロノス(=檀正宗)みたいな人と結婚したんだろう、と改めて疑問に思いましたよ、私は。
Matsuda: She was a very beautiful woman. I wondered again why she married someone like Dan Masamune.
美人で俺もビックリした。こんな人からどうしたら黎斗ができるんだって。
Kai: She was so beautiful that I was surprised too. I wondered how such a person could give birth to Kuroto.
いや、クロノスと結婚したら黎斗は産まれちゃうよ (笑)。まあ、あったんでしょうね。きっとお父さんにもいいところが。
Matsuda: No, if you marry Cronus, Kuroto will be born (laughs). Well, there must've been a reason. I'm sure the father had his good points.
もとをただせば、正宗と櫻子さんが結婚したことが「エグゼイド」のすべての始まりだったということなんだよね。
Kai: To put it simply, Masamune and Sakurako's marriage was the beginning of all of "Ex-Aid."
どこに惚れたのかっていう最大の謎は、トリロジーでも結局謎のままだけど (笑)。
Matsuda: The biggest mystery of what made her fall in love with him remains a mystery even in the trilogy (laughs).
テレビシリーズでもあとから明かされた“新事実、はいくつかありましたが、演じる側としてはやはり戸惑いもありますか?
Interviewer: In the TV series, there were some new facts that were revealed later, but as a performer, did you feel confused?
ありますね。パラドに関して言えば、「最終的に人間の味方につく」という設定は、正直あとから知ったんで、「えっ?どうしよ!」とはなりました。最初のほうの取材とかでは、普通に「悪役のまま終わりたい」って答えてたぐらい、僕自身は悪役をまっとうするつもりでいましたから。
Kai: Yes, I did. To be honest, I didn't know Parad would end up on the side of the humans until later, so I thought "What? What should I do?". In the first interview, I said that I wanted to end up as a villain, and I was planning to play a villain until the end.
私も本編のほうで「私、黎斗の母親だったんだ!」って知ったときは衝撃だったな。あれを最初から知っていれば、たぶん接し方も変わってたはずなので、「教えといてよー」と思ったもん。
Matsuda: I was also shocked when I found out in the show that I was Kuroto's mother! If I had known that from the beginning, I probably would have treated him differently, so I thought, "Why didn't you tell me?"
でも、きっとそれがいいんだよね。知らずにいることでいつのまにか役作りをさせられてる。僕が人間側につくのを知ってたら、グラファイトとの距離感とかも絶対ヘンになってたと思うもん。急にそういう台本を渡され��、自分の感情が追いつかなくなるというのがパラドにとっても逆によかった。リアルに窮地に立たされてる感じがさ。
Kai: But I'm sure it's for the best. By being unaware of it, I'm somehow forced to create the role. If I had known that I was going to be on the human side, the distance between me and Graphite would have been weird for sure. It was good for Parad that he was suddenly given such a script and that his emotions couldn't keep up. He felt like he was in a real predicament.
東映さんの作品はそういうところがあるみたいだもんね (笑)。『シンケンジャー』のときも、松坂桃李さん自身は「実は影武者」という設定をギリギリまで知らされてなかったんだって。演じるほうとしては最初から言っててほしいけど、そのあたりが難しさであり、面白さでもあるのかなって。
Matsuda: That seems to be the case with Toei's films (laughs). For "Shinkenger," Tori Matsuzaka himself wasn't told that he was actually a shadow warrior until the very last minute. As a performer, I wish I would have been told from the beginning, but I think that's both the difficulty and the fun of it.
そうだね。パラドが永夢に感染したバクスターだというのも最初は僕だけが知ってて、飯島くん本人は実際教えてもらってなかったし……。永夢の瞳が赤くなったときは絶対パラドが近くにいるとか、そういう匂わせはたくさんあったけど。
Kai: That's right. At first, I was the only one who knew that Parad was the Bugster who infected Emu, and Iijima-kun himself wasn't told about it. There were a lot of hints that Parad was definitely nearby when Emu's eyes turned red.
うんうん。だから「エグゼイド」も2ラウンド目が面白いんだよね。いろいろわかったうえで観ると、「そういうことか!」ってさらに楽しめるし。
Matsuda: Yeah, yeah. That's why the second half of "Ex-Aid" is so interesting, isn't it? If you watch it after you understand everything, you can enjoy it even more.
信頼しあえる関係性
A relationship of mutual trust
トリロジー全作を手がける鈴村監督の現場はどうでした?
Interviewer: How was it working with director Suzumura, who is working on the entire trilogy?
かなり自由にやらせてもら雰囲気でやれたかなってえましたね。 監督自身がすごく柔らかくて器の大きい方だから、周りも切羽詰まったりせずに、いい雰囲気でやれたかなって。
Kai: The director himself is very soft and big-hearted, so the people around him didn't feel pressured, and we were able to do it in a good atmosphere.
うん。よくご飯にも誘ってくれたしね。監督がそうやって気さくに接してくれるからこそ、距離感もほどよく縮まって、現場でも「コレ、こうしたいんです」って気負わずに言える空気感ができてた感じ。私のなかではすっかり焼酎ばかり飲んでる人というイメージだったりもしますけど (笑)。
Matsuda: Yeah. He often invited me out to dinner, too. Because the director was so open with me, we were able to close the distance between us, and I felt like I could say, "This is what I want to do," without feeling self-conscious. In my mind, he has the image of someone who drinks only shochu (laughs).
演出プランは当然、監督のなかにもあるはずなのに、芝居をつけてる段階で僕らが別のアイデアを出すと、決まって「じゃあ、そうしようよ」って言ってくれる。そうやって積極的に採用してもらえたら、こっちも一生懸命考えようって気持ちになるし、それはすごくよかったなって思います。自分の発想力みたいなものも否応なしに鍛えられましたしね。
Kai: Naturally, the director has a plan for the direction of the film, but when we came up with a different idea during the play, he would always say, "Well, let's do that". I think it's great that the director is willing to adopt our ideas, because it encourages us to think harder. I think that was really good. I was also able to develop my ability to think out of the box.
しかも、周りにはずっと一緒に走ってこられた同世代の役者陣。もはや鬼に金棒ですね。
Interviewer: In addition, he was surrounded by actors of the same generation who had been running together for a long time. It's like the devil's advocate.
みんな、ホントに仲よかったよね。人数が多いと自然とグルーブに分かれたりもしがちですけど、「エグゼイド」に関してはそういうこともまったくなくて。
Matsuda: We all get along really well. When there are a lot of people in a group, it tends to naturally divide into different groups, but that didn't happen at all with "Ex-Aid".
うん。個人的にも、みんなで笑い合えて、楽しく仕事ができる現場が一番いい。そういう意味でも、オンとオフのメリハリがつけられるメンバーばかりだったのはよかったなって。
Kai: Yeah. Personally, I think it's best to work in a place where everyone can laugh together and have fun. In that sense, I'm glad that all the members were able to have a good balance between on and off work.
お二人の信頼関係は?
Interviewer: How is the relationship of trust between the two of you?
バッチリですよ。私が右なら、彼は左に行くので (笑)。
Matsuda: It's perfect. If I go right, he goes left (laughs).
そうかな?でも、確かに違うことをしたがるかも。同じ方向向いてって言われても、素直にできないし (笑)。というか、そっちも "おしゃべりクソマシンガン" って言われてたじゃん。
Kai: Is that so? But I think we may want to do different things. Even if you ask me to look in the same direction, I can't do it honestly (laughs). I mean, you've been called a "shitty talking machine gun" too.
"クソ" じゃないよ、"サブ" だよ (笑)。なんだろ?私がバーッとひとしきり喋って、横から彼一がポロッと鋭いことを言うみたいな、そういう流れは現場でもありましたね。
Matsuda: It's not "shitty", it's "sub." (laughs) What is it? There were times when I would talk a lot, and then he would say something sharp from the side.
でも、おかしいことは言ってなかったでしょ?ちゃんと事実を言ってただけで。
Kai: But I didn't say anything funny, did I? I was just telling the truth.
大人はみんな知らんぶりして目を課るようなことをあえて言うんですよ、彼は。
Matsuda: He dares to say things that all adults pretend not to know and avert their eyes on.
そういうのすごい嫌いなの。日本人はなんですぐ "付度" するのかなって思っちゃう。あんな言葉、英語にはないからね?
Kai: I really dislike that kind of thing. I wonder why Japanese people are so quick to use "tsukedo". There is no such word in English, right?
はいはい (笑)。
Matsuda: Yes, yes (laughs).
では、お二人の関係性が十分伝わったところで、これから作品を観る読者にメッセージを。
Interviewer: Now that we have a good sense of the relationship between the two of you, do you have a message for the readers who will be watching the film?
夕陽に照らされたパラドクスとポッピーのポスタービジュアルを鵜呑みにすると痛い目を見ますってことは言っておきたいかな。
Matsuda: I guess I'd like to say that if you believe the poster visual of Parad and Poppy in the evening sun, you're in for a world of hurt.
あれはちょっと、謎のタイタニック感があるからね。
Kai: That one has a bit of a mysterious Titanic feel to it.
二人が出るってことしか合ってない (笑)。ただ、「ブレイブ&スナイプ」も「ゲンムVSレーザー」もわりと重いし、「パラドクスwithポッピー」は箸休め回だと思って身構えずに観てほしいな、とは思うよね。
Matsuda: The only thing that fits is that the two of them are in it (laughs). However, both "Brave and Snipe" and "Genm vs. Lazer" are rather heavy, so I hope people will think of "ParaDX with Poppy" as a chopstick rest and watch it without getting defensive.
そうだね。3部作だと1本目は掴んで3本目は落とさなきゃいけないけど、それがない2本目は何でもできる。そういう自由度の高さはよかったよね。
Kai: Yes, in a trilogy, you have to grab the first one and drop the third one, but in the second one you can do anything. It was nice to have that kind of freedom, wasn't it?
監督のフェティシズムも一番詰まってる作品だしね (笑)。
Matsuda: It's also the film that contains the most of the director's fetishism (laughs).
ちなみに、パラドとポッピーを演じてきて、ー番「心が躍るな」と思った瞬間は?
Interviewer: By the way, what was the most "exciting" moment for you while playing Parad and Poppy?
うーん。たくさんありすぎてひとつには紋れないですね。今回で言えば、ポッピーじゃなく「松田るか」として主題歌を唄わせてもらえたのは「躍った」かな。
Matsuda: Hmmm. There are so many that I can't pick just one. In this case, I was able to sing the theme song not as Poppy, but as Matsuda Ruka, and I think that made me "jump".
僕は初めてナパームを見たときかな。あの大爆発には童心が騒ぎましたね。あと、これは余談ですけど、僕、クランクアップのときに現場に放置されたんです。
Kai: I think it was the first time I saw napalm. That huge explosion made me feel like a child. Also, this is an aside, but I was left unattended at the scene when the filming had wrapped up.
置いてかれてた (笑)。
Matsuda: You were left behind (laughs).
花束をもらって、せっかくだからって自撮りをしていて、「よし帰ろう」と外に出たらロケバスがもう出ていて…..。1年半を演じ終えた役者に対する「心震える」仕打ちとして、このことはぜひとも太字にして語り継がれてほしいと思います (笑)。
Kai: I got a bouquet of flowers and was taking selfies for the occasion, and when I went outside to go home, the location bus had already left... I hope this will be bolded and passed down as a "heart-breaking" treatment to the actors after a year and a half of acting (laughs).From Toei Hero MAX 57
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