#I went a bit overboard here but this was really fun to research and theorize about!

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

Hallo! You have a lovely blog. I have a question that has been gnawing at me for some time and I was curious for your thoughts; Which First Age Elven *realm* had the most/longest freindship with the Khazad? Evidently, Finrod Felakgundu had an outstanding friendship, but what of the rest of Nargothrond? The Feanorians had a military alliance, Maedhros saves Azaghal, and I had heard Curufin, son on Fea, had learned Knhuzdul. I could ramble more, but alas there is a text limit! Haha. Cheers!

Hi! Thanks so much, and thanks for the ask! This is a really interesting question. :) It's really difficult to know which First Age Elven realm had the best friendship with the Dwarves, because there’s so little information, although I think I figured out which one had the longest relationship! So here’s what we do know.

According to Morgoth’s Ring, the Dwarves entered Beleriand in Y.T. 1250 and met the Sindar at that time. The Silmarillion says, ‘Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and King Thingol welcomed them. But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in after days than to any others of Elves and Men, because of their love and reverence for Aulë...’

We are told that Elves and Dwarves built Menegroth together, so I don't quite believe that their friendship was cool. I think it would have been fairly positive, especially since the Dwarves adopted the Cirth invented by Daeron; there was some level of cultural exchange. It also says, ‘Melian taught them much that they were eager to learn,’ and ‘the Naugrim laboured long and gladly for Thingol,’ which sounds positive. Still, it’s possible that their friendship with the Noldor was simply stronger than their friendship with the Sindar.

Then there’s the question of how long the relationship lasted. Did the Dwarves have much contact with Thingol’s people after they completed construction of Menegroth? According to The War of the Jewels, after Thingol built Menegroth with the help of the Dwarves in Y.T. 1300, in Y.T. 1320 the Dwarves spoke to him of their concerns of returning evil in the north, and in Y.T. 1330 Thingol hired Dwarven smiths, including Telchar, to forge weapons for his people. Much later, when Thingol receives the treasure from Nargothrond, he asks the Dwarves of Belegost to set the Silmaril in the Nauglamír, so it seems to me that contact between Doriath and the Blue Mountains would not have ceased in the intervening time. 

Thingol died in F.A. 502, and that was obviously the end of Doriath’s friendship with the Dwarves, but it seems likely to me that Doriath did have the longest relationship with the Dwarves than other Elven realms. But how long was it? The Years of the Trees lasted 1500 years, which was equivalent to 14,373 solar years, meaning one Year of the Trees is about 9.5 Years of the Sun. Thingol's people had contact with the Dwarves for 250 Years of the Trees, and 502 years of the First Age, which comes out to 2,877 years!

Moving on to the Noldor, it says that the Dwarves were more friendly to the Noldor than the Sindar. In terms of how and when they met, the Fëanorians settled in Eastern Beleriand in F.A. 7, according to The War of the Jewels. The Silmarillion says, ‘but all the great land between Gelion and the mountains, and between Rerir and the River Ascar, was called by the Noldor Thargelion, which signifies the Land beyond Gelion, or Dor Caranthir, the Land of Caranthir; and it was here that the Noldor first met the Dwarves.’

It doesn’t say that Caranthir was the first son of Fëanor to meet the Dwarves, but it seems likely that he was; Curufin settled in the Pass of Aglon, so it seems likely that Caranthir came in contact with the Dwarves before Curufin did, even if Curufin was more interested in their language. The time period when Caranthir and Curufin could have interacted with the Dwarves would have been between F.A. 7 and F.A. 455, when the Dagor Bragollach occurred and Curufin fled to Nargothrond and Caranthir fled south to Amon Ereb. Therefore, it seems like Caranthir and Curufin were most likely nearby/in contact with the Dwarves for a maximum of 448 years, depending on how soon after F.A. 7 they made contact.

The bit about Curufin learning Khuzdul comes from The Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘but Curufin was most interested in the alien language of the Dwarves, being the only one of the Noldor to win their friendship.’ The second half of that quote directly contradicts the later canon, however, because there are other Noldor who win their friendship. This isn’t to say Curufin didn’t win their friendship; only that Curufin wasn’t the only one, and it also seems unlikely that he was the only Noldo to be interested in their language, either, in a culture full of linguists and scholars; also, Finrod received a Khuzdul name. 

Nargothrond was founded in F.A. 52 and completed in F.A. 102, and the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains helped Finrod with the building. During this time the Dwarves also make the Nauglamír for Finrod. However, it’s unclear to me when exactly Finrod met the Dwarves. How soon after Nargothrond’s founding did its construction begin? Did the Noldor begin construction on their own and then later receive help from the Dwarves, or did the Dwarves assist in the construction from the beginning? 

We know that Finrod didn’t meet the Dwarves before Caranthir did, and it would have had to have been in or after F.A. 7, but no earlier. It’s possible that Finrod met the Dwarves in F.A. 7, or a few years later, or that he met them around F.A. 52, and it’s even possible that he began construction of Nargothrond without them and later received their help, so it’s really unclear how long the relationship lasted. But I tend to think he met them on the earlier side, closer to F.A. 7, if only because Menegroth was Finrod’s inspiration for his own hidden city and Thingol would have told him about its construction, which would have led Finrod to actively seek out the Dwarves once the Noldor made contact.

But at least we do know that this relationship was very positive (this is not the case for the Petty-dwarves, however, who said that the Noldor had stolen their ancient home). The fact the Dwarves bestowed a Khuzdul name upon Finrod signifies a high level of trust and respect, and it seems likely that Finrod wasn’t the only Elf in Nargothrond who they made friends with.  This in turn suggests that there continued to be contact between Nargothrond and the Dwarves after Nargothrond was completed, at least in my opinion; although it was very far from the Dwarven strongholds.

If the Dwarves’ friendship with Finrod and Finrod’s people began in F.A. 7 and outlasted Finrod’s death, but did not outlast the fall of Nargothrond, then the maximum amount of time the relationship could have lasted would be 488 years. But there are few clues as to when Finrod actually became friends with the Dwarves and how long the Nargothrond-Blue Mountains relationship actually lasted.

As you said, Maedhros rescued Azaghal from Orcs in Unfinished Tales, and Azaghal gave him the Dragon-helm forged by Telchar in thanks; later Azaghal joined the Union of Maedhros. Presumably the friendship/contact between Maedhros’ people and the Dwarves lasted from some time in or after F.A. 7 to Nirnaeth Arnoediad in F.A. 472, when Azaghal was killed and the Union of Maedhros was broken: 465 years max.

As for other Elven realms of the First Age, it is not stated whether Fingolfin’s, Fingon’s or Turgon’s realms had any contact with the Dwarves. It is unlikely that the Dwarves had any contact with Círdan because they did not venture that far, but they did receive pearls from Thingol that Thingol had in turn received from Círdan. It is also not stated whether the Dwarves had any contact with the people of Aegnor or Angrod, but it seems unlikely. Despite geographic closeness, it also seems unlikely that the Laiquendi had much friendship with the Dwarves either, because they ‘kept themselves by wariness and secrecy’ and after the death of their king Denethor ‘they came never forth in open war,’ suggesting they wouldn’t have sought Dwarven weapons.

In conclusion, here is a summary of the Dwarves’ relationships with Elven realms of the First Age:

The realms of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Círdan, Aegnor, Angrod, and the Laiquendi: negligible or non-existent relationship with the Dwarves

Thingol’s people: definitely the longest, lasting over 2,000 years, but we are told the friendship was less strong than the Dwarves’ friendship with the Noldor, and it ended with bloodshed and created mutual distrust for thousands of years afterward

Caranthir’s people: met the Dwarves before the other Noldor, relationship lasted 448 years max; a more positive relationship than the Dwarves had with the Sindar

Curufin’s people: relationship lasted 448 years max; a more positive relationship than the Dwarves had with the Sindar; Curufin was interested in their language

Finrod’s people: unclear how long relationship lasted; Finrod and probably Nargothrond as a whole had a very positive relationship with them, as shown by the Nauglamír and the bestowing of the name Felagund

Maedhros’ people: relationship lasted from before Dagor Aglareb to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, 412 years min, 465 years max; the relationship was strong as evidenced by a military alliance 

#asks #Dwarves #I went a bit overboard here but this was really fun to research and theorize about! #I love getting asks! #sorry it took me so long to get to this #HELP I ended up doing Elf Math again #or is it Dwarf Math? #the point is I did math #hopefully I didn't make any mistakes #I excluded Maeglin and Eol from this because they don't really count as a realm #but they did have a relationship with the Dwarves too