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camimcndcs · 3 years

Text

the road back to us

TAGGING: KJ @itskjapa, Cami.

LOCATION: Vancouver, BC.

TIMEFRAME: November 20th, 2020.

NOTES: After four weeks of hell, KJ and Cami relieve some tension on the road to finding their way back to each other.

KJ: The ding of the elevator shook KJ out of his thoughts as the doors opened themselves to let him out, suddenly reminded that he had been making his way up for the past minute. Days on set were more intense and exhausting now that the plot had been established and the characters were thrown in the course of events -- though lately, he had been making sure to come home as late as possible in the hopes that his fiancée wouldn't be awake. Barely a week ago, he had promised himself to do whatever was necessary to change their situation, but the more she acted so uncharacteristically, the less he felt inclined to speak up. Emotions that had been bottled up for weeks now and felt on the brim of exploding at any given moment. He was angry at their lack of communication and intimacy, but also fearful that the wrong word would send them spiraling out of control and to a point where they wouldn't be able to come back from. The line had been drawn in the sand and the redhead was on the edge; praying to have the strength to hold on and not give into his impulsive nature. Something that was becoming harder as the days went on. Quietly opening the door, he swiftly moved inside and closed it behind his form -- dangling they keys on their usual hook before turning around to make his way to the bathroom. A routine he had mastered quite well lately. Except this time, the sight of Camila awake and on their couch rooted him to the spot; driving his heart to beat faster and forcing shivers running down his spine. Unfortunately, not the good kind. "Hey..." he trailed off, tongue darting out and licking the dry lips that had been apart as soon as his eyes had stumbled upon her. There was no answer and the voice in the back of his mind screamed to bolt -- certain this moment would somehow lead to a confrontation. "I'm gonna take a quick shower." He didn't leave her any chance to reply before quickly heading to the other room. Buying himself some time.

Cami: It was out of the ordinary for Camila to be up this late, but it had been a long day at home with Talia and once she'd gotten the baby to sleep she had decided to take some time for herself. Ever since their daughter had been born, life had seemed to completely shift, at first, it had seemed to shift for the better, but as the weeks went on things had taken a turn. The raven-haired girl knew that she hadn't been her true self in weeks, but she couldn't really put a name to what she was feeling. There was exhaustion, mixed in with loneliness, and some sense of needing to prove to herself that she could do this task that was supposed to come somewhat naturally to her as a woman. She hadn't really been properly taking care of herself, but life seemed to be moving a mile a minute and she was mostly focused on taking care of her daughter. At the sound of keys turning in the door into their apartment, a wave of anxiety flooded her body as she debated turning off the television and running to their room to ignore the awkwardness that would surely follow. Instead of running though, she stayed put, turning the volume up a little louder on the TV as she sat in an oversized t-shirt and underwear with a blanket covering her bare legs. Camila could feel his eyes on her as he headed towards the bathroom and she tried to muster a tired smile, but it didn't quite reach her eyes. As he muttered his hello, she turned her attention back to the TV, running her hands through her hair as he mentioned his next move. She nodded her head in response, but it was after he had already disappeared into the bathroom. Soon the sound of water running in their shower could be heard and she decided at that point to turn off the show she was watching and instead scroll aimlessly through her phone, wondering if anything on social media would explain why he was coming home so late, knowing some of their other friends had returned home much earlier.

KJ: The bathroom was an appreciated safe haven, but one where he couldn't overstay his welcome. There was little to no chance Camila would give up on whatever agenda she had tonight and KJ knew he had to face the music sooner or later -- even if a part of him was tempted to wait it out and attempt to escape the argument that was awaiting them. The clothes he usually put on after a shower were nowhere to be found and with a defeated sigh, he simply gave into the reality of the situation. Not only would she chew him out, but he'd be butt naked during the entire time. Tightening the towel around his waist, he shook the water from his hair with a quick motion of his hand and stepped back into the living room; brown eyes settling on every piece of furniture around. Aside from the couch where his fiancée was still sitting on. Luck definitely wasn't on his side tonight and he had given up on the idea that she could find herself flustered at the sight of him these days -- though perhaps she could find it in herself to have pity on him instead. "Still up?" he inquired after an insufferable silence, finally looking her way as he tried to gauge the expression crossing her features. The redhead had been reading her wrong for weeks now, so he couldn't even be sure if she was mad or simply tired. What he knew for certain was that she would find a way to blame it on him one way or another. "The newbies messed up a few takes-- so I had to stick around on set longer than planned. And then I decided to run home... still have to stay in shape, you know." The words flew past his lips with so much uncertainty and with a need to justify himself. Even if he knew deep down he shouldn't have to, not when she acted as if he was invisible when he was around. Could she really be upset about not having him in bed with her? Curiosity was creeping up on him despite the nervousness he was taken with. Their recent conversations still engraved in his mind.

Cami: The question he inquired after an insufferable amount of silence made her scoff, "No shit. Does it look like I'm asleep?" she questioned with a roll of her eyes. She listened as he explained why he was so late, eyebrows furrowing as he mentioned the newbies. After Lili had come over to check on her earlier in the week she'd gotten quite a earful about the newbies and how easy-going they were, especially one girl in particular who she knew had been filming with KJ. Did she have a right to be jealous? Probably not, but that didn't mean she wasn't. When he mentioned still having to stay in shape her eyes flickered over to his toned chest that was out in all of its glory. Still wet from the shower, almost glistening as if it was taunting her. "The newbies, huh? Which one messed up? Was it Alyssa?" she replied through gritted teeth. "I heard she's soooo great," she added, the amount of sass in her tone quite relevant. She knew that her response to his question about still being up had slightly pissed him off, so she was waiting to see what reaction she would get from this. Camila stood up then, revealing her bare legs, setting her phone down on their coffee table and crossing her arms in front of her chest to stand her ground for whatever would come next. Her eyes kept looking down at the ground and then back to his toned muscles. Something was stirring inside of her, but tonight would probably just end in some nasty fight that had been a long time coming and they'd fall asleep in separate rooms. She had passed the six week mark on Wednesday and her doctor had given her the okay for sex, but she didn't see that happening anytime soon unless she was giving it to herself and where was the fun in that?

KJ: Ignoring most of the things she said had become a second nature at this point, which is why KJ didn't even bother to give the sarcasm that dripped from her words any attention. Instead going forth with their conversation in hopes that it would end soon -- his expectations hadn't been high, so he wasn't truly surprised with the way she was currently acting. What caught him off guard though was the way her eyes took in his chest, something she had not done in weeks now, even when he had tried his hardest to evoke lustful thoughts on her part. He also didn't miss the way she rapidly mentioned Alyssa, one of the newbies in question, with whom he had been getting along quite well on set. He knew better than to get his hopes up regarding the matter, no matter how many signs were blinking in his direction. "What?" he asked in confusion, eyebrows furrowing while he kept his gaze set on her frame -- following her every move and unable to not stare when her bare legs came into view. The redhead smacked himself mentally when his first thought was to ponder on whether or not she was wearing underwear, but the look in her eyes when he met them again was enough to push him back onto the right track. The one that led back to their argument. "She's indeed great." he replied with a smug expression that crossed his face before he could even react, the emotions locked inside his being bubbling up uncontrollably. As if they were about to let loose in an ugly way. "What's it to you? Not like you've done any efforts to get to know them-- her." Her posture and the look in her eye were encouraging him to fight back and push in a way he had kept himself from doing so. It felt as if he had no control over his actions nor his words; the latter tumbling from his mouth without much thought. Was it jealousy? KJ couldn't be sure, but for the first time in a long while, he didn't feel as helpless or sad. She had opened a door that he intended on keeping as such.

Cami: The confusion on his face just made her angrier. What was so confusing? How was she supposed to feel when her best friend informed her that some random girl was becoming besties with her fiancé? Camila trusted him, of course she did, but did she trust some girl she didn't really know? Not really. It wasn't very feminist of her to think that way, but she couldn't help it. Of course she was jealous, but the jealously was all her own fault. "Fuck you," she spat out, rolling her eyes as he smugly informed her of how great Alyssa was. His next comment about her not making an effort to get to know any of the newbies really pissed her off because he knew that she didn't have time for that right now. "Oh, I'm so fucking sorry that I'm only on set two and a half times a week and I have to work almost nonstop and provide nutrients for our daughter, if you want to see if your pecs can provide her with milk, be my guest," she scoffed, glaring at him as she waited to get more of a rise out of him. She was pissed now. He knew that she was constantly tired and unfortunately didn't really have the time to make new friends right now. She had felt horrible about it in the beginning, but there just wasn't much she could do right now. That stirring feeling was back in her stomach as they stared each other down with pissed off expressions on their faces. Sex with KJ was amazing, but she had a feeling that angry, tension filled sex would be something completely different. As bad as she wanted it though, she wasn't going to make the first move. It had been so long, she wanted him to be the one to pounce, to show her just how badly he wanted her. A flame had been lit between them, they had never fought like this and she was eager to see what he would do next.

KJ: There it was, the one thing he had been looking for all along during the past few weeks. The spark that had been missing, the passion left in the dark -- this was more than he had ever hoped for. It obviously wasn't the circumstances he had imagined, but he would take this kind of argument over any of the others they had gotten into. Camila for once didn't look like someone who was going through the motions, looking for fights without any purpose. For once, she was animated by more than futile reasons; a rage that was fueled by the jealousy she was currently feeling. KJ had his doubts previously, but as she kept addressing him, it all became crystal clear. Since she was allowing her feelings to come forth in such way, he felt like the least he could do was reciprocate and see where that would lead them. The worries and fears he had been plagued with had dissipated as soon as she had mentioned Alyssa. She cared. She still cared and wasn't looking for a way out -- on the contrary. "What? You think you're the only one who's busy?" he scoffed, the hint of a mocking smirk tugging at the corners of his mouth. The redhead wanted to push until she would break and finally give him the green light he had been waiting for like a fool. He only wished he had been confident enough to do so before this evening. They had lost time being so stupid and would never get any of those days back. "I'm killing myself out there at work-- our schedule is fucking hell." He slowly moved forward, separating little by little the distance between them. Brown eyes intently fixed onto her own with a clenched jaw. "So excuse me, if I actually take the time to make friends with people. To have some fun elsewhere-- with someone else." It was too much. A part of him was screaming to stop, but he was unable to. Instead halting his motions when he was right in front of her. "Maybe if you weren't busting my balls all day long, you wouldn't feel threatened right now."

Cami: They were getting somewhere now. After whatever unfolded tonight, they couldn't go back to tiptoeing around each other and staying quiet. Something had been reignited in them. They had both finally snapped and although they were angry, it also felt kind of good. Camila knew that there would be so much more to work through after whatever happened tonight, but she finally felt ready to admit to her problems and look for ways to solve them. She could feel more anger bubbling up inside of her as he scoffed, but the mocking smirk on his face kept that stirring feeling alive in the pit of her stomach. "Killing yourself? Oh please. I don't remember the last time I slept for more than 3 or 4 hours at a time and our daughter is sucking the life out of my tits. I'm killing myself too, mister," she spat out, her chest heaving as he stepped closer and closer to her. The eye contact they were making right now felt extra intense as she noticed his jaw was completely clenched. At his next comment her hands clenched into fists and if she hadn't been so angry she was certain she could've cried, but instead she bit her lip and unclenched her hands. Her eyebrows furrowed again and now she was really glaring at him. "Fuck you," she spat out again and before she knew it she was raising her right hand and slapping him straight across the face. She almost couldn't believe it, but he had pushed her too far, which seemed to have been his plan. Now she was left to wait for his next move. Camila wasn't sure she had ever slapped anyone except maybe a few stupid drunken boys at college parties, but it had felt good and she hoped it was the push he needed to finally make a move on her which was something she had been craving for awhile, even if she'd been in a mostly rotten mood the last four weeks.

KJ: KJ almost uttered how sorry he was for the comment he had made, pushing her didn't mean he had to be mean after all, but before he could even move a limb, the slap she bestowed upon him was like an electric shock. Painful, it left him rooted to the spot for what felt like an endless amount of time -- lips parted in surprise over the action and his chest heaving up and down. It was deserved, though the gesture itself ended up more arousing than it should have been. At least he didn't think she had done as such to get him going. Yet here it was nonetheless, a familiar feeling bubbling at the pit of his stomach and sending a jolt straight to his groin. Despite everything that had went down between them, he was very aware that the six weeks mark had been passed. Something they had both looked forward to weeks ago. It wouldn't resolve the numerous issues they had, far from it, but his entire being was burning at the simple thought of being joined with hers. Of being able to express himself in a physical way, the one thing they had been banned from partaking in and would allow their frustrations to find an outlet. Slowly, he turned his head and met her gaze again -- witnessing the surprise crossing her features along with the undeniable desire that she was reciprocating. They were back on the same wavelength tonight and the redhead felt content with so little; especially when they hadn't been able to in so long. Words weren't needed anymore, not that they led them anywhere positive anyway and without a warning, he reached out for the back of her neck and drew her forward abruptly. His mouth crashing onto hers in a bruising kiss while his hands moved just as roughly along her body and to the back of her legs -- wrapping them around his waist for the brief journey toward the couch before throwing her on the furniture and blanketing her body with his own. The towel long forgotten on the floor. He couldn't recall the last time he had felt this alive.

Cami: Watching with bated breath as the redhead slowly turned his head to meet her gaze, the surprised look on her face was evident and she hoped he wasn't going to say anything because she wasn't sure she could take it. All she wanted was his lips on hers, no more words thrown around. She felt like they had finally reached the point where words weren't needed anymore. Thankfully, he seemed to have read her mind which meant they were back on the same wavelength which made her feel good. Without a warning he reached for the back of her neck to draw her closer to him as their mouths crashed into each other. The feeling of his lips on hers brought that feeling of warmth to her stomach that she hadn't felt in weeks. His hands moved just as roughly as his lips did, picking her up and wrapping her legs around his waist. The towel that had been wrapped around his lower half fell as he threw her down onto the couch where she landed against the cushions, sprawled out before he fell on top of her in his bare naked glory. Camila wrapped her legs back around his waist as he settled on top of her, bucking her hips as she kissed him harder than she'd ever kissed him before. In this moment she felt like she was coming up for air for the first time in a long time. Her nipples were beginning to harden underneath her shirt and she was desperate to be skin to skin with her fiancé again. Pulling away from his lips to catch her breath for a second she let out a whine. "Take these clothes off of me," she grumbled, smirking at KJ as she ran her hands through his hair, looking at him with so much lust and love in her eyes. "Please..." she whispered with a smile, bucking her hips up against him again.

KJ: It felt rather pathetic to be this turned on by a slap. The warmth radiating from her body enveloping him whole and spurring him on. Though he could count on one hand the number of times they had been intimate ever since Talia's birth -- when they had to hold themselves back since they couldn't go too far -- and his being was currently in overdrive. Submerged with the emotions that had finally shook loose and the excitement of the situation. Having Camila trapped underneath him was a rush of power that he had been deprived of for weeks. She had been the one in control and he had allowed her to walk all over him without ever fighting back. The roles were now reversed and he wasn't inclined to give her an ounce of control over their current position. His lips were restless against her own, practically mauling her with a force he had never used on his fiancée before; not even during the numerous wild times they had shared. There was no denying just how aroused she was by his actions, her body reacting to his ministrations just as it always did. The redhead dragged one of his hands along her thigh and pulled on the elastic band of the panties he was met with, only to halt his motions when she spoke -- breaking the trance he had been under. His brown eyes took in the smile crossing her lips and the sight alone was like the fuel that made the bright fire roar. How dare she? After weeks of gaslighting him, here she was acting as if she had the right to even ask for something. To look at him in such a way when she had barely been able to. It only made his anger increase along with his need to keep being in charge. Without even bothering to utter a word, KJ swiftly grabbed her hands and pulled them harshly over her head, not allowing her the pleasure to touch him more than she already had. The fingers still hooked in her panties tugged firmly on the material until it snapped in half and he disregarded the underwear as soon before settling himself between her legs. His gaze still firmly locked onto hers while he pushed forward past her tight walls -- a deep groan rumbling from his chest at the feeling of her core taking him in again for the first time in over six weeks. Though he didn't let himself enjoy the pleasurable sensations, instead maneuvering his hips back and forth as roughly as he had been ever since their lips had touched.

Cami: His response to her request was to pin her arms above her head and she looked at him with her chest heaving as he tugged firmly on the material of her panties before they snapped in half. “Fuck,” she cried out, annoyed that he wasn’t listening to her, but also so turned on by his anger and how he was taking charge. As he settled himself between her legs she let out a cry. They had both been missing out on this feeling for weeks and it was quickly approaching them. She had missed the way that he filled her up and how he always made her feel when they were in this position. KJ’s eyes were looking so deeply into hers as he finally pushed himself forward past her tight walls. The feeling hurt a little bit, but that was to be expected. She’d read that due to the breast feeding she might experience some pain with sex and a drier vagina. Thankfully the circumstances of the evening were helping her arousal, but she still cried out as he thrusted into her. Camila’s wrists were turning above her head, trapped in his own hand as she bucked her hips towards him. The redhead was thrusting into her with such intensity and at such a rough speed she felt like she could hardly breathe, but she was enjoying it fully. The raven-haired girl tried to fight back against his hand that was holding her arms above her head. “Fuck you, let me touch you,” she groaned, squirming underneath the hold he had on her. Camila could now not only feel, but also see her nipples hardening against the fabric of her shirt. She was desperate for some sort of relief, but she knew he wasn’t going to give it to her unless he wanted to. His name began to fall from her lips as she closed her eyes, completely submerging herself in the feeling of him thrusting himself in and out of her.

KJ: The more she tried to wiggle in his grip, the tighter his hold on her became -- letting her know through his actions that she wasn't going to get her way. Camila had taken control of their dynamic for far too long and it was time for him to be on top. Quite literally in that moment. Seeing her struggle and get worked up brought the kind of satisfaction he couldn't truly describe. It was nothing like he had ever felt before, a sensation he was reveling in and urged him to keep pounding into her. The sound of their skin slapping endlessly and filling the space they were in. Thankful that the walls in their apartment were thick enough that their daughter wouldn't be woken up despite the cries evoked with each thrust of his hips. Just as previously, KJ didn't bother entertaining the foul words that tumbled from her mouth with such ferocity, instead willing his body to hold onto the dominance he was exhibiting. The chances of their passionate tryst to last more than a handful of minutes were low considering the circumstances and he planned on making sure his forceful demonstration would linger on her mind. His intense gaze never faltered from her features, intending on looking right into her eyes whenever she found it in herself to open them -- having to witness just how hurt and angry he was. Mixed with the obvious lust she had awaken. His breath, heavy and shallow, was irregular and the sensation in the pit of his stomach was on the verge of taking over. Blunt nails dug in the soft flesh of her hip as he held her still, increasing the pace of his motions in order to reach the awaited release. Only then did he allow himself to embrace the tightness of her core and the feeling it provided; a sense of belonging he had sorely missed. Like finally coming home after a terribly long journey. The cries that picked up in intensity and filled his ears were swallowed by his mouth, tongue clashing against her own just as the orgasm washed over him like a tidal wave.

Cami: The dominance exuding from her fiancé's being right now was the greatest turn on for Camila. Of course she was frustrated that he wasn't listening to her or giving her exactly what she had asked for, but watching him take charge was so sexy. The sound of their skin slapping together filled her ears and it was enough to make her let out another moan. Thankfully she could be vocal without waking up their daughter. Camila knew that this tryst wasn't going to last too long, it had been a very long time since they'd been like this and she knew that soon enough they'd both be pushed over the edge. The hurt and anger mixed with a look of lust that she was met with whenever she opened her eyes to look into his own made her feel a mix of emotions. For now she was focused on the anger and lust, the hurt part would come after when they had time to talk. The raven haired girl listened as his irregular breathing took over as the sound she could hear, heavy and shallow just like her own breath in this moment. As his blunt nails dug into the soft flesh of her hips, she let out another cry as he increased the pace of his motions to reach their long-awaited release. Normally she would talk dirty to him and praise him for everything he was doing, but time was moving too fast and this was not the time or place. The next time they came together like this, he would get all of her praise. More cries fell from her lips and he swallowed them with his mouth, bestowing more bruising kisses against her lips and he dove deeper inside of her. Their tongues clashed together as they each satisfied their hunger for each other. She could feel his impending orgasm washing over him as she cried out into his mouth and felt her release also building up. That fire that had been lit inside of her was warm and ready to bring her to the edge. "I'm so close," she mumbled against his lips, bucking her hips to get herself right where she needed to be, her orgasm taking over immediately.

KJ: Just as fast as it had started, their union came to a culminating point rapidly as they both gave into the pleasure that had crashed onto them. His hips moving frantically, chasing the high that was so near before sharply bucking forward as he came inside of her — tight walls contracting around his length and nearly squeezing the life out of him. His entire frame collapsing on top of Camila when his muscles failed him; there was no strength left in that moment and the only thing he could do was give his body the time it was seeking. Face buried in the crook of her neck while KJ tried his hardest to catch his breath. The pleasure that overtook him fogged up his mind and the only thoughts that were conjured up for a handful of seconds were about the wonderful feeling of being this close to his fiancée again. But the reality of their situation was quick to rear its ugly head — leaving him with questions he wasn’t certain he wanted the answers to now that the rush of adrenaline and confidence was slowly dissipating. Just because she had been jealous and they had succumbed to their urges, it didn’t mean everything was suddenly fixed. Nor that they both wanted to move forward towards better days. Slowly, the redhead withdrew from her warmth and scooted over to her right side as humanly as possible; the couch wasn’t spacious but was able to have them both laying on top of it nonetheless. The room was quiet aside from their heavy breathing and his eyes were fixed on an invisible spot on the ceiling — all he knew was that he couldn’t go back to the way things had been lately. If Camila was to follow his lead on the matter, she would have to take the right steps in order to do. Just as he needed to as well. “We should have argued like that more often, aye.” he murmured, mustering a small smile that he couldn’t quite keep on his features. Not when there was so much uncertainty regarding their relationship.

Cami: As KJ’s entire frame collapsed on top of her after he had chased his orgasm, Camila let out a grunt and a short laugh as he buried his face into her neck. Her chest was still heaving as she came down from her own high, enjoying the feeling as he tried to catch his breath. When he slowly removed himself from her warmth and scooted himself over to her right side, their arms still some what pressed up against each other. The room grew quiet aside from their heavy breathing and she watched as his eyes stayed fixed on a spot in the ceiling. It hurt that he wasn’t able to look at her, but she understood why. She had been so horrible, ignoring him for weeks and not really giving him the time of day. She had made it so the only common ground in their relationship was their daughter. At his murmuring, she looked over at him, wanting him to look at her again. Watching as the smile on his face disappeared just as quickly as it had appeared she felt her heart break a little bit. “Mhm,” she answered quietly with a smile. Suddenly her emotions took over and she was crying. “I’m so sorry Kaje, I’m so so sorry, I’ve been horrible to you...” she spoke, tears flowing from her eyes as she crawled on top of him and rested her head on his bare chest. “I love you, I’ve been so stupid, I’m sorry,” she added, breathing in his sweaty scent and trying to calm herself down. Camila wasn’t sure what had finally cracked inside of her, but there was obviously more that needed to be said and she would say it, but she just had to get some of her thoughts out there so he knew how she was feeling. The raven-haired girl was truly so sorry and she needed him to see that and know that she was willing to get things back on track with them. She was ready to be a family again and to fix the mess she had made.

KJ: He could feel her gaze on him as he kept his own fixed on the white ceiling above them, begging without words for him to turn his head and give into her -- the way he had refused to mere moments ago when they were having sex. Gone was the dominance he had put forth, but now they both had to be confronted to something more complex than the physical act they had gotten to partake in. Feelings. As the wonderful sensations the orgasm had procured slowly but surely dissipated, all he was left with was sadness; an emotion he was quite familiar with lately. They simply couldn't stay put this way and act as if nothing had happened, which is why KJ decided to make the first move, if only for his sake. His lips parted, words on the verge of flowing when he was caught off guard by the sobs reaching his ears -- the body next to him shaking and immediately drawing his attention. A weight was lifted from his heavy heart at the words she uttered and although he wanted to be cautious and not get his hopes up as he had done in the past, he couldn't help but tightly wrap his arms around Camila when she moved on top of him. One hand coming up to the side of her face and tucking the loose strands of hair behind her ear. "Shhhh." No matter how strong he wanted to be, she had always been his weakness. His own emotions took the best of him, tears filling up his eyes and soon rolling down his cheeks when she breathed out three words he hadn't heard in what seemed like an eternity. They washed over him like the pleasure he had felt earlier; which now appeared insignificant compared to the satisfaction of knowing his other half was still in love with him. Something he had unfortunately doubted at times. "We're gonna be okay, Cami. It's alright-- we're gonna make it work. I love you." he murmured before his lips were pressed on the crown of her head, an affectionate moment he had dreamt about for weeks. Teams were always coming together to achieve their common goal. Just as they would.

#( para )

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thezolblade · 5 years

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Jon: “I wish I could talk it through with Martin, or Tim, or Sasha…But we never really did that, did we?”

I’ve been meaning to pull together some meta ever since hearing that line. As understandable as it is that Jon would regret the times he failed to communicate, as true as it is that he’s often fallen down there (and it’s fun seeing the fandom screaming over that on an ongoing basis)... I’d say he was too hard on himself by saying ‘never’, since there were times when he tried to communicate to the best of his ability. More than that, there are lines that give me the impression he’s always highly valued shared knowledge - that as well as being driven by a deep desire to know, he also wants to help other people know more, and gets frustrated when they don’t want to share knowledge with him or others.

Some quotes here, and interpretation below, of times when he tried to go beyond the ‘archive the closed cases’ job description that was supposedly expected of him, pursuing his priorities in the expectation that people would help - when he still expected that other people would help as a common sense assumption - or discussed events with the assistants beyond the bounds of what he was officially asking them to do for the job, etc. (Mostly s1 bc this is taking more evenings than i expected just from looking through the transcripts and a lot of episodes don’t have them yet):

MAG 001 - Anglerfish

ARCHIVIST: When an investigation has gone as far as it can, it is transferred to the Archives. [...] it seems as though little of the actual investigations have been stored in the Archives, so the only thing in most of the files are the statements themselves. [...] I plan to digitise the files as much as possible and record audio versions, though some will have to be on tape recorder as my attempts to get them on my laptop have met with... significant audio distortions. Alongside this Tim, Sasha and, yes, I suppose, Martin will be doing some supplementary investigation to see what details may be missing from what we have.

MAG 002 - Do Not Open

ARCHIVIST: When the Institute first investigated, it doesn’t look like they were able to find a single piece of evidence to support the existence of this scratched coffin, and to be honest I didn’t think it was worth wasting anyone’s time over now, nearly twenty years later. That said, I did mention it to Tim yesterday, and apparently he did some digging of his own.

MAG 004 - Pageturner

ARCHIVIST: So it doesn’t appear that we have any concrete leads to go on. Still, I will be bringing this up with Elias and recommending that the search for any other missed books from the Leitner library be made this Institute’s highest priority. Jurgen Leitner has done the world enough harm and we must pursue all available avenues to ensure that he does no more.

MAG 006 - Squirm

ARCHIVIST: I can’t find any evidence that my predecessor took follow-up action on this statement, so I’ve taken the step of reporting Mr Hodge’s to the ECDC. We were unable to locate him to request a follow-up interview and if he has had intercourse with one of Prentiss’ victims, then they’ll need to deal with him sooner rather than later. I just hope it’s not too late already.

MAG 011 - Dreamer

ARCHIVIST: I’m not... entirely sure whether to bring this up with Elias or not. When he hired me, he was vague on the point of what happened to my predecessor, Gertrude Robinson. [...] I had Tim look into it, as I don’t entirely trust the others not to have written it as a practical joke and slipped it into the archives. [...] Still, I might have a word with Rosie, to make sure I get a copy of any new statements as soon as they’re made, not just once the researchers are done with them. She seemed very open to idea of recording them, so I’m hopeful she’ll be willing to do this too.

MAG 017- The Boneturner’s Tale

ARCHIVIST: I've barely scratched the surface of the archives and have already uncovered evidence of two separate surviving books from Jurgen Leitner's library. Until he mentioned that, I was tempted to dismiss much of it out of hand, but as it stands now I believe every word. I've seen what Leitner's work can do, and this news, even 17 years out of date, is still very concerning to me. I'm going to have a discussion with Elias as to what we can do to address the issue. I know he'll just give me the old “record and study, not interfere or contain” speech again, but I at least need to make him aware of it.

MAG 020 - Desecrated Host

ARCHIVIST: This all leads me to believe that there may have been a second person there that night, although from talking with the police, I get the impression that there is little appetite for re-opening the case, considering how successful the initial prosecution was.

MAG 022 - Colony

ARCHIVIST: In which case there's a room in the Archives I use to sleep when working late. I suggest you stay there for now. I'll talk to Elias about whether we can get extra security, but the Archives have enough locks for now. [...] Well, in that time I have received several text messages from your phone, saying you were ill with stomach problems. The last one said that you thought it “might be a parasite”, though my calls trying to follow up were never answered. [...] I just received another text message. From you. “Keep him. We have had our fun. He will want to see it when the Archivist’s crimson fate arrives.”

MARTIN: What does that mean?

ARCHIVIST: It means I ask Elias to hire some extra security. I should probably warn Sasha and Tim as well.

MAG 024 - Strange Music

When discussing this case, Tim said it reminded him of some articles he'd read on travelling circuses in Russia and Poland during the early 20th century. On a whim, I hunted down a few of the volumes he mentioned in the Institute's library, and sure enough on page 43 of Gregory Petry's Freaks and Followers: Circuses in the 1940s, I found a reproduction of an old black-and-white photograph.

MAG 026 - A Distortion

SASHA: Well, I’m sure you know I was sceptical about how dangerous this Jane Prentiss was when you first suggested Martin stay in the archive. [...] You were having some argument with Tim about... um, oh, who’s that architect he’s obsessed with?

ARCHIVIST: Robert Smirke. [...] ARCHIVIST: Sasha has taken a few days off to recuperate, and I’m having a word with Elias about getting some extra CO2 fire extinguishers for the Archive.

MAG 033 - Boatswain’s Call

TIM: Um, look I know you’ve been under a lot of pressure... it’s not a big deal, I just think it might be worth re-recording these statements.

ARCHIVIST: No. I don’t have time. I still have a mountain of haphazard statements to get through, not to mention that I need to keep this wretched tape recorder on hand just in case I encounter one of the files too stubborn to work on anything else. And when I do, I have to actually read the damn thing, which is...

TIM (BACKGROUND): Oh, woah, woah... woah!

ARCHIVIST: Fine. It’s fine. I just haven’t been sleeping much these last few months, what with all this... worm business. Which reminds me, if you do see Elias, tell him thanks for the extra extinguishers. [...] ARCHIVIST: In addition to such business ventures, the Lukas family also provides funding to several academic and research organisations, including the Magnus Institute. Much as I want to dig further into this, especially given certain parallels with case 0161301, Elias gets very twitchy when we look into anything that might conceivably have funding repercussions. [...] Maybe I’ll mention it to Elias. Just in case.

MAG 035 - Old Passages

ARCHIVIST: You should have seen Tim’s face when I told him. Architecture is one of his specialist areas, and he has always talked of Smirke as one that fascinates him. How did he phrase it? “A master of subtle stability.” From a professional standpoint, it also interests him that Smirke’s buildings have higher percentages of reported paranormal sightings than any other architect of similar profile.

MAG 036 - Taken Ill

TIM: Er, what is it?

ARCHIVIST: A lighter. An old Zippo.

TIM: You smoke?

ARCHIVIST: No. And I don’t allow ignition sources in my archive!

TIM: Okay. Is there anything unusual about it?

ARCHIVIST: Not really. Just a sort of spider web design on the front. Doesn’t mean anything to me. You?

TIM: Ah no. No.

ARCHIVIST: Well... show it to the others, see what they think.

MAG 039 - Infestation

ARCHIVIST: I got it!

[PULLS TAPE RECORDER FROM THE MORASS OF WORMS] [...]

SASHA: Why record it?

ARCHIVIST: What?

SASHA: Before, in the office. It, it was stupid going for the tape recorder like that, and then when you dropped it out there— [...]

ARCHIVIST: I just... I don’t want to become a mystery. I refuse to become another goddamn mystery. [...] Every real statement just leads... deeper into something I don’t even know the shape of yet. And to top it all, I still don’t know what happened to Gertrude. Officially she’s still missing, but Elias is no help and the police were pretty clear that the wait to call her dead is just a formality. If I die, wormfood or... something else, whatever, I’m going to make damn sure the same doesn’t happen to me. Whoever takes over from me is going to know exactly what happened. [...]

ARCHIVIST: Of course, I believe. Of course I do. Have you ever taken a look at the stuff we have in Artefact storage? That’s enough to convince anyone. But, but even before that... Why do you think I started working here? It’s not exactly glamorous. I have... I’ve always believed in the supernatural. Within reason. I mean. I still think most of the statements down here aren’t real. Of the hundreds I’ve recorded, we’ve had maybe... thirty, forty that are... that go on tape. Now those, I believe, at least for the most part.

MARTIN: Then why do you—

ARCHIVIST: Because I’m scared, Martin! Because when I record these statements it feels... it feels like I’m being watched. I... I lose myself a bit. And then when I come back, it’s like... like if I admit there may be any truth to it, whatever’s watching will... know somehow. The scepticism, feigning ignorance. It just felt safer.

MARTIN: Well... It wasn’t.

ARCHIVIST: No. No, it wasn’t.

[...]

ARCHIVIST: I mean at the Archive in general. Why haven’t you quit?

MARTIN: Are you giving me my review now?

ARCHIVIST: No... We’re clearly doing a whole heart-to-heart thing and, truth be told, the question’s been bothering me. You’ve been living in the Archives for four months, constant threat of... this. Sleeping with a fire extinguisher and a corkscrew. Even you must be aware that that’s not normal for an archiving job? Why are you still here?

MARTIN: [Considering] Don’t really know. I just am. It didn’t feel right to just leave. I’ve typed up a few resignation letters, but I just couldn’t bring myself to hand them in. I’m trapped here. It’s like I can’t... move on and the more I struggle, the more I’m stuck.

Martin...You’re not, uh... You didn’t die here, did you?

MARTIN: What? What? N-No... what?!

ARCHIVIST: No, I just... No, just the way you phrased that...

MARTIN: Made you think I was a ghost?

ARCHIVIST: No... it’s—

MARTIN: No, no... it’s just that whatever web these statements have caught you in, well, I’m there too. We all are, I think.

MAG041 - Too Deep

Why do I still feel like I’m being watched? I’d just about convinced myself it was Prentiss, watching me in secret while she filled the walls with her writhing hordes, but no. She is dead and gone, and still whenever I talk into this... damn thing, I feel this... I’m being watched. I know I am. [...] my primary focus must be on who killed Gertrude Robinson, and I do not believe for a moment that it was a wall-moving spectre from the depths of the earth. No, far more likely it’s one of my colleagues. Elias is a prime suspect, but it could have been any of them. [...] I can make two tapes from each recording. One containing the main statement and notes, which will be stored in the archive, and the other containing the statement, notes, and... this supplement, which will chronicle my own investigations. These tapes will be hidden. If you’re hearing this, I assume you’re my replacement, following my death or disappearance, and have received instructions on where to find them. [...] This level of paranoia is new to me, but I’m learning fast. Trust can get you killed.

...So, reading back over season 1 was interesting. Jon was asked to organise an archive of statements that were no longer under investigation by the institute. (Leading a team of four ex-researchers, himself included, who were used to working on open investigations. He was told that the institute’s mission statement was to study but not to ‘interfere or contain’, to the point where he got sick of Elias giving him that speech.)

He believed every statement that we heard him record, and he had all 3 assistants take part in re-opening an investigation into each of them through all available lines of enquiry (instead of devoting more resource to getting the existing material filed in a sensible system asap).

Wherever there was a chance it would do some good, he reported his findings to the authorities, and pushed to see if the Institute or the police would go further on the basis of his information.

He discussed the cases with his assistants thoroughly enough to know their areas of personal interest in the supernatural, and when they got into trouble, he immediately offered them as much protection as he could and went to Elias for help, prompting some of the others to express skepticism about the threats that he was clearly taking seriously, maybe excessively so...?

And yet because he felt watched by something supernatural, and convinced himself that it was Jane Prentiss somehow, he lied constantly by feigning skepticism even while following every lead and pushing everyone else to do the same. It’s a wonder anyone was fooled tbh, and it backfired by discouraging Martin and Sasha from confiding in him until they were in deep trouble. It also made his complaint about lack of sleep look relatively grumpy/petty to Tim, since he didn’t quite admit the full scale of the problem with nightmares and the exhaustion that the statements magically caused.

When Elias was feigning a normal level of ignorance in ep 39 he told Sasha: “You know how those two are... John puts on a good show, but sometimes I swear he’s worse than Martin.” And in ep 40 he told Jon: “I... know I have often seemed dismissive of your concerns before, and in fact I was getting ready to raise the issue of Martin’s continuing to live in the Institute’s basement”. If Elias was faking something like the rest of the Institute staff’s attitude (to things he wouldn’t admit to knowing all about)... then people really did doubt Jon’s skeptic act, feeling that he was always complaining about supernatural threats and going overboard in trying to protect people.

That changed in season 2, when he came to believe that one of his colleagues had murdered Gertrude, and stopped trusting all of them. When he was worried that his own death might be imminent, in the midst of Prentiss’ attack and in the paranoid aftermath, one of his main concerns was communicating with his successor through the tapes.

He doesn’t want his fate to be a mystery to those he leaves behind. Considering how much danger he puts himself in, diving into a pile of worms for the recorder, and later stating that he’d rather die exploring the tunnels than leave the Institute’s secrets buried, he’s more interested in getting information out to other people than in surviving.

Mid-season 2, when he gets scared, he talks about taking a break from his investigations until he can get more help from the police, especially as he thinks he’s trying to track down a human murderer. That remaining trust in authority doesn’t lead him to him collaborating with Basira to the extent he’d hoped, since she eventually makes it clear she wants nothing more to do with him, and he discovers that not!Sasha is a supernatural threat that the police couldn’t help with anyway.

The start of season 3 sees him reflecting that he didn’t turn to his assistants for help because he didn’t want to get them killed, and once he makes it back to the archives, he tries to overcome his recent trust issues and more long-standing hero complex by involving the others in his plans again - though they take care not to let those plans show up on tape, since they’re plotting against Elias by that point. When Jon asks everyone to record their thoughts before the unknowing in Testament, he’s trying to get them all communicating - with themselves, each other, and anyone who follows in their footsteps.

So far in season 4, he’s been more ready than ever to collaborate, but the others are mostly refusing to talk to him. His first instinct when he uncovers immediately relevant information is to go tell Basira, and he heeds her advice when he asks whether they can tell Melanie. (Which was unfair on Melanie, but at least you can see why he’d fear for his life after she threatened to attack him on sight if he ever tried to talk to her again.) He tried to tell Martin what had been going on instead of trying to compel information from him, and apparently hasn’t had much chance to speak to anyone else, or to leave the building.

He has the power to compel other people to see truths that they wouldn’t have recognised on their own; he only had to ask Tim what he was holding for Tim to see the detonator. And he may compare himself to Gertrude for losing assistants, but he talked to Sasha and Tim about the threats they were facing at the time, to the best of his knowledge. If Gertrude seems to have fought her battles by deliberately misleading people so that she could sacrifice them, and by taking out ‘loose ends’ to keep herself from being incriminated...

Well, I think Jon’s on his way to distinguishing himself from his predecessor through good communication, despite the massive stumbling blocks of his paranoid phase and isolation. (And through his extreme protectiveness towards individual people, compared to her way of prioritising the big picture.) He’s always wanted to get the truth out in the open, despite sometimes holding back out of fear that he won’t be believed, or he’ll get himself or others killed. Some of his most uncharismatic moments have been his attempts to tell people the truth when his knowledge was too patchy to convince them, and he wasn’t tactful enough to try to bring them on-side with diplomacy instead of facts and theories. As his powers grow, one of his most effective abilities might be to help his allies see the truth, so that they can join forces by choice.

E.g. maybe he’ll eventually find out what Peter’s up to from Martin - or maybe he’ll ask about something that he didn’t even realise was part of the plan, granting Martin an insight into something that neither of them knew beforehand.

[Edit: Wrote the above post in the mid-s4 hiatus and, uh. He sure did try to collaborate on a lot of stuff, but. Also fucked up pretty thoroughly, so. The s4 thoughts feel a bit over-optimistic in retrospect. Leaving it strikethrough rather than deleted though.]

#the magnus archives #tma thoughts

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madewithonerib · 4 years

Video

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How St Paul changed the world (Full Show) | Tom Wright & Holland

Justin Brierley is joined by leading New Testament scholar NT (Tom) Wright & popular historical writer Tom Holland to discuss how the apostle Paul changed the world as described in Wright’s recent book Paul: A Biography.

An agnostic in terms of his religious commitments, Tom Holland has nevertheless described the way that the birth of Christianity has shaped much of what we value in Western society in terms of human rights, culture and rule of law.

He engages with NT Wright on the way that Paul & the early Christian movement stood in stark contrast to the prevailing Roman culture of its day.

Introduction: Tom Wright

Today on unbelievable, we're asking: how did St.Paul change the world?

NT Wright (or Tom Wright) as he's popularly known is one of the world's most influential BIBLE scholars.

And his new book: “Paul a Biography” is a detailed study of the Apostle

who brought Christianity from Jerusalem to the rest of the world.

Saint Paul's influence is almost incalculable, 2nd only in the world to JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.

As he took the good news of a Jewish Messiah to the Roman Empire that ruled the world.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks has described Tom Wright's book as:

"An enthralling journey into the mind of Paul by one of the great theologians of our time. A work full of insight, depth & generosity of understanding."

So it's pretty good when you can get endorsements like that on your book jacket.

Introduction: Tom Holland

Opposite Tom Wright for today's discussion is another Tom.

Tom Holland, popular historian whose best-selling books such as Rubicon & Dynasty have told the story of the rise & fall of the Roman Empire.

While not a believer himself, Tom Holland is also working on a new book on the way that Christianity became the most revolutionary force for changing the world & it'll be interesting to hear how you've been getting on in that endeavour Tom.

Connection between Toms

Today is really an exchange of collegial discussion between two people who are simply fascinated in this era of history.

What can we know from Acts & the letters in the NT about Paul, & what are the gaps that we need to fill in about:

● Who Paul was, & ● How Paul went about his mission, & ● We’ll also talk about his famous conversion, & ● The unique way his theology developed as he brought Jewish monotheism & JESUS the Messiah together.

So Tom Holland & Tom Wright, welcome to the show, it’s great to have you both joining me today.

We’ll come to you first of all Tom Wright, I'm probably going to have to use surnames to distinguish you both today.

But you've been writing & researching Paul for decades now haven't you? (yes) I mean the last, well, a couple of years ago I had you on when you wrote your magnum opus—which was

(that's actually amazing that's 5 years ago that it came out, yes extraordinary) The two volumes sort of very academic (yes Paul & the Faithfulness of GOD)

Q1: And is this really I suppose in a sense the popular level version of what you wrote then?

Tom Wright: Sort of yes & no, when I did that big book, several people (both including colleagues in the discipline said:

"Wish you'd do a shorter one"

Of course part of the point of the longer one was that I've been writing shorter things & articles.

And people had always said,

"Yeah, but you didn't explain this or yes but surely that has to be contextualized there."

Okay, you want the big thing, here it is.

Then of course they all said it was far too long, so it's as JESUS said:

"We danced for you & you wouldn't even sing; & we wept & you wouldn't mourn."

But this isn't exactly a potted down version, because that was a book on Paul's mind & theology.

Now there's a lot of mind & theology in here, but part of the whole point of it is that what Paul was thinking & saying was contextualized in a rich multi-layered life,

which was to do with both his Jewish upbringing & his amazing knowledge of the Jewish SCRIPTURES.

And with his contextualizing in the Roman world, where he was a citizen, & in the Greek world where he knew his Epicureans from his Stoics.

And we see Paul navigating these things in a multi-layered way, which I find just perpetually enthralling because I grew up with a Paul who was basically

a brainbox who said prayers as it were.

And then the rest of it was off on the side.

The older I've got the more, the whole man (of Paul) speaks to this whole man. And that's been really exciting.

Justin Brierley: You probably feel like you know his era almost as well as you know your own now.

Tom Wright: Well let's put it like this, "My students mock me,

because when I say the war, I mean the Jewish-Roman war of (66–70 AD) —not World War one or two.

And they say, "well yeah I sort of mentally live in the 1st century, though I've tried to diversify more recently, & get back towards our days as well.

Justin Brierley: And just kind of give us a sense of how you structure this particular because you called it a biography & in that sense you are trying to write something that's sort of a narrative.

Tom Wright: “oh yes"

Justin Brierley: It's not a sort of academic book, in the traditional sense.

Tom Wright: No. It's not at all, I mean the only footnotes are basically references to bits of the BIBLE, or bits of classical sources & so on.

So there's no discussion of other scholarly views or if I do say there are various views here, I don't actually go into details as to who said it. You can find those elsewhere.

So this is going through from what we know about or can infer about his early life; &

how he got to the point where he was on the road to Damascus when dot-dot-dot, & then what happened next...[4:33]

And as with virtually all ancient history, there are gaps.

That's quite normal, but when you have gaps in any narrative (ancient or modern) what you can do is probe cautiously—from either side, as it were, with the bits you do know & say:

"Well it's possibly this, it's likely that, or it’s almost certain that such & such.

And that's what I tried to do to construct a whole story.

Justin Brierley: And something of a gift to us, 2K years later; that he was obviously a prolific letter writer.

Tom Wright: Well he was comparatively prolific, but actually the letters are short, you know:

How many volumes do we have of Cicero's letters in the lower classics? I mean just...[5:09]

Tom Holland: They go on & on..have you read them all? Tom Wright: Exactly! Exactly they do go on & on.

And they're fascinating, they shed a flood of light & all sorts of things in the 1st century BC Roman culture.

But for Paul we've just got these snippets because he's writing on the go.

He's not leisured sitting there all day to compose, he's really sending bulletins from the front as it were [5:33]

Tom Holland: Yeah

Tom Wright: So most of his time, he isn't writing letters, so far as we know:

he's talking with people, he's preaching, he's praying. He's always trying to organize these little communities;

And then from time to time, he has to buzz off a letter to somebody.

Justin Brierley: Yes & you're always obviously hearing one side of the conversation, (yup) & you sort of have to fill in gaps (yeah).

And you have to, I suppose as a historian Tom, what you're doing as well as saying:

Well here is what we know is going on in the wider culture, & that makes sense of why Paul said this & did this..

Tom Wright: And particularly I am very fortunate in that

I came of age as a scholar just when the contemporary revolution in modern Jewish studies was happening.

So that we've got the Dead Sea Scrolls, in good modern editions, we've got new good editions of Josephus.

We know much much more about the early rabbis, than we did 50 years ago because of massive work that's gone on. [6:23]

So we can reconstruct quite a lot about how Jews in that period were thinking.

And of course that's controversial too.

But we can see a big picture, within which then the way Paul is going after things—makes sense if you say take somebody in that world, who is also very much alive to the Greek & Roman context.

But who then happens to believe that GOD has fulfilled HIS promises by sending a Messiah, who was then crucified.

That's bizzare.

But the sense Paul makes of it, is the sense that it would make within that Jewish world. [6:53]

Justin Brierley: And just before we come to Tom Holland here, that was going to be my next question.

Will people reading this book simply know a lot more about Paul by the end of it, or will it give us a better picture of JESUS?

The person, he was obviously speaking of.

Tom Wright: I’m not sure it would necessarily give you a better picture of JESUS, but it would give you a

better picture of how the very first followers of JESUS were wrestling with the question:

What does it mean that GOD's Messiah was crucified & raised from the dead?

You know that's not part of the game plan, but if that's what we've got: How does that reconfigure everything?

Obviously I & many others have written quite a lot about JESUS as well. That's another story.

But so it's probing back & I mean for me, I just go on being fascinated by the fact that within I would say:

"20 or so years after the crucifixion,"

here is a highly intelligent man saying he loved me & gave himself for me.

You know that is extraordinary! [7:42]

It's hard to imagine anybody saying that, about anybody else in the last 20 years (right).

Unless all sorts of other things were true as well.

And yet Paul says it [7:53]

Justin Brierley: Tom Holland, thank you for joining us on the program today. We've thrown you in at the deep end.

Tom Holland: You really have.

Justin Brierley: Well thank you for putting yourself in the, you know, the opposite chair. As I say, this isn't, sometimes this program is combative, I have a feeling that won't be the case today.

It'll very much be a meeting of the minds.

But tell us where your interest in the whole Classical Age really began. You've sort of been doing this all of your adult working life, haven't you? [8:24]

Tom Holland: Well it goes right the way back to childhood & I was the kind of child who loved dinosaurs & I liked them because they were big & they were fierce & they were glamourous. And they were extinct, & my interest, I suppose, was really in the Roman army then by extension the Roman empire.

Well it kind of was a seamless movement from Tyrannosaurus Rex to Caesar.

And so the kind of the glamour & beauty & the power, & the cruelty of the Greeks & the Romans, I found very appealing. [8:58]

The contrast to that, although I went to Sunday School & I was very interested in biblical history as well.

I found them all a bit poor-faced. Kind of I didn't like their beards,

I preferred the clean-shaven look of Apollo.

And in a way I was kind of seduced by the glamour (yes) of Greece & Rome, I suppose. [9:20]

So the first books I wrote about of history were about Greece & Rome, & in many ways —you know the appeal particularly I think of Rome is that in certain ways they do seem very like as you were talking about Cicero's letters

This is a man who, you know, is:

● worrying about property prices, ● he's worrying about the weather, ● he's complaining apparently (people),

yes in all kinds of ways, he seems very familiar. [9:46]

But the more you live in the minds of the Romans, & I think even more the Greeks, the more alien they come to seem. [9:53]

And the more frightening they come to seem.

What becomes most frightening really is a kind of quality of callousness, that I think is terrifying because I think it is completely taken for granted.

There's a kind of innocent quality about it; nobody really questions it.

Justin Brierley: And what sort of form would that take? [10:13]

Tom Holland: Well if you know, within the age of Cicero, you know Cicero's great contemporary Ceasar is by some accounts slaughtering a million Gauls & enslaving another million, in the cause of boosting his political career.

And far from feeling in any way embarrassed about this, he's kind of promoting it & say when he holds his triumph:

People are going through the streets of Rome carrying billboards boasting about how many people he's killed.

This is a really terrifyingly alien world & the more you look at it, the more you realize that it is built on systematic exploitations.

So the entire economy is founded on slave labour (right), the sexual economy is founded on the absolute right of free Roman males to have sex with anyone that they want in any way that they like.

And in almost every way this is a world that is unspeakably cruel to our way of thinking.

And so this worried me more & more, & it was kind of like, I was thinking...well you know:

I'm clearly not as I had vaguely imagined, the era of the Greeks & the Romans in any way really.

And so where am I coming from?

It was like a kind of itch, you know, on your back & you can't find it.

Then this was enhanced for me, by then writing a book about the late antiquity & the emergence of Islam from the late religious conflict that caught the religious & imperial context of late antiquity [11:42]

And again finding in Islam, a profound quality of the alien, that you know there were aspects that were familiar, but there were many aspects of it that again seemed deeply deeply alien.

And I began to realize that actually:

in almost every way I am Christian.

I began to realize that actually Paul, although in many ways he seems a much less familiar figure than Cicero, in the kind of urbane man with his property problems.

Paul never had any property [12:11], he just made tents.

In almost every what is it? Seven letters?

Conventionally that people absolutely accepted, & as Tom Wright was saying this is not a very lengthy amount of writing.

But compacted into this very small amount of writing, was almost everything that explains the modern world [12:39]

JB: Well the Western world as we take for granted, yeah.

Tom Holland: Yes but also the way that the West has then moved on to shape.

You know concepts, like international law for instance.

So the facts that, the concepts of human rights, all these kind of things.. Ultimately they don't go back to Greek philosophers, they don't go back to Roman empiricism

>> They go back to Paul & his letters [13:02]

And I think are along with the 4 GOSPELS the most influential, the most impactful, the most revolutionary writings that have emerged from the ancient world.

JB: When you penned that article for the New Statesman, where you said, what I got wrong & you sort of came out as it were & said, "as far as my values & background are concerned I am a Christian." (yeah)

It was interesting to see the response to that.

Because I saw lots of atheists & humanists saying,

"Oh hang-on, you know we democracy goes back to the Greeks, don't pretend that Christianity gave us everything we're grateful for.”

But you honestly think that actually

people simply haven't appreciated just how much we owe to Christianity? [13:51]

Tom Holland: Well I think that, I mean if we're talking of Paul, I think of him as a kind of depth charge, deep beneath the foundations of the classical world. [13:59]

And it's not anything that you particularly notice if you're in Corinth or Alexandria.

Then you start feeling this kind of rippling outwards [14:10]

By the time you get to the 11th century, in Latin Christendom everything has changed. And you have this guy, essentially what is Paul's significance is that:

He sets up ripple effects of revolution throughout Western history [14:28]

So the 11th century where with the Papacy Revolution, essentially establishes this idea that

Society has to be reborn/reconfigured.

And the vested interests has to be torn down, & then the Reformation, is a further ripple effect of that [14:47]

The Enlightenment is a further ripple effect of that.

Tom Wright: Very interesting.

Tom Holland: You know it's spilled out so much that now, in the 21st century, we don't even realize where these ripple effects are coming from.

We just take them for granted. [14:58]

JB: I can hear Tom Wright, you want to come in on this..

Tom Wright: Well I was just thinking

I haven't actually read from cover to cover, but Steven Pinker's two books where he's saying effectively

JB: Well I had him on the show recently.

Tom Wright: Oh really? Okay he's saying, “Forget all that religion stuff, we invented the real world as it should be in the Enlightenment, & all we have to do is apply it more & more rigorously.

And just kick that religion stuff into touch.”

And it's very interesting that some commentators have said, "Well if that was going to be the case, it would work in America better than anywhere else & look at America & you'll see that it doesn't.”

But I think I want to respond with what Pope Benedict said 10 years ago when he was speaking at the United Nations, when he said:

The whole idea of human rights is absolutely rooted in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, & if you try & get the fruits of that without the roots, all you'll get is the thing will collapse.. into shrill special-interest rhetoric.

Everyone claiming the status of victim analogous when I had these, which is exactly where we are.

[15:39-15:54]

Tom Holland: But the power of victimhood (yeah yeah) is again something that is part of the Revolutionary inheritance of Christianity—because that is the point of the crucifixion.

Tom Wright: Yes & nobody in Caesar's world would have said, “Oh I'm a victim therefore I've got to be prioritized.”

Tom Holland: Cause that'd be a scandal. [16:10]

JB: We actually had Steven Pinker in the very chair you’re sitting on (right now) Tom Wright.

His response to this argument which at this point was being put by Nick Spencer, who's written a very good book as well on the evolution of the West making this very odd move.

His argument was,

"No, Christians may have given us some good principles. But all we need to recognize is our universal humanity—that we're part of the same species, we're all sentient. [16:31]

That gives us every grounding we need for treating each other with dignity & human rights [16:37]

Tom Wright: And who thought like that in the 1st century?

I mean Paul talking about Adam & CHRIST basically. [16:39]

JB: So are you saying that kind of a belief simply can’t emerge in a vacuum in a sense?

Tom Wright: Yeah the idea of universal humanists is something that even in the 18th century they struggled with.

You know when missionaries went to America & came back arguing about whether the American Indians had souls or not?!

Were they really the same species as us?

And then John Wesley & George Whitfield & so on saying,

"No these people have to be taught to love GOD like any of us.

And so there's stuff going on there, which is again rooted in human rights.

JB: And you’re part of the push back on this (Tom Holland)?

Tom Holland: In a way it seems to me that the most influence, the single most influential phrase for why we have a notion of a kind of common humanity is in Galatians where:

Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female."

And it's there you have this idea that we are (of course he goes on to say: "in CHRIST JESUS")

And that for the contemporary world is...(we just). [17:12-17:45]

Tom Wright: That's what people want to do without.

Tom Holland: But of course there is an issue there, as Daniel Boyarin, a faceted Jewish scholar writing about Paul says,

"So Jewishness & Greekness gets dissolved into this universal humanity, but: What if I as a Jew want to stay a Jew?

And so in a sense, there also you have the kind of you know: The issues that continue to obsess our society, which is essentially—

if you don't want to be part of a kind of universal commonality—what then do you do?

Tom Wright: The dangerous thing, I was at a conference, in America a couple years ago. Two-three years ago, based on the big book on Paul, & there was an African-American Theologian woman at Fuller Seminary who basically pushed back on me on this & said:

"The danger is when you say we're all one in CHRIST JESUS, what that means is that everyone else is an honourary white male, & the white males have got it. And that everyone else has to say, "OK, we're sort of part of your team as it were."

[18:17-18:40]

And I said, If that's what you're hearing, that's certainly not what I was intending; & certainly not what Paul was intending either.

And I know Danny Boyarin, we've had this debate, it's great fun. Because I think what we're seeing there is very interesting cultural moment, on the cusp of modernity & post-modernity.

And David Horrell in Exeter, his book on Paul 'Solidarity & Difference" says it all:

That on the one hand, we've got this cutlural drive towards we're all part of this together.

It's what's going on in the European debate, at the moment. (Yes) Solidarity, we're all just part of this nice big family & that's how it all works in economy of scale, & so on.

And then lots of people, including in Scotland, where I now live.

Saying, "No that's squelching our identity, & we're not going to let you do it.

And the interesting thing is that Paul in 1 Corinthians, is faced with the same issues:

How do you navigate past this theologically where you're simultaneously saying:

"We've all got to be one family; & then you're saying, but if your conscience means that this is where you are at the moment here's how we'll live with that & how we have to respect that.

And he's basically wrestling with the big issues that we're wrestling with as well.

Doing so very sophisticatedly. [19:45]

JB: Let's come to some of his specific story, because you do a fabulous job in the opening chapters of the book, in setting the scene of:

● Who Paul was, ● What we can know about his background, ● the sort of Judaism that he came from.

And for me, one of the fascinating bits was you kind of speculating on what he might have been thinking about when he was on that famous road to Damascus.

Because I thought that was quite interesting, you know what was occupying Paul's mind—at the moment when that famous event occurred.

Do you just want to walk us through that?

Because I think this is probably the most famous conversion in all of history, in a way. [20:23]

Tom Wright: Yes if conversion is the right word. [lol]

But right off the top the danger with saying conversion is that what that word means in our world:

If I say so-and-so has just got converted, the chances are this means that so-and-so was probably an atheist or an agnostic; & they have now found some sort of faith. And one would hope it might be for me, my new Christian faith.

That's not really at all what's going on for Paul; & it's certainly not about swapping from one religion to another.

That's the layers of misunderstanding there, in terms of what the word religion meant in the ancient world

—in terms of what the word religion means in our world.

Neither of those fit what's happening to Paul. [21:01]

Paul always had believed in the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob—the CREATOR GOD, he never for a moment stopped believing in GOD.

He was living in a narrative which said,

"All those ancient promises have got to come true, GOD's got to show that HE's in the right.

That HE meant what HE said, & that HE's going to renew the whole world.

Quite possibly, not all Jews believed this through a Messiah—who will come & do justice & re-establish the Temple in Jerusalem, so that GOD will come back & live there gloriously et cetra. [21:27]

So Paul is living with that narrative, & in particular within that, & you see this in the later Rabbis, but it's clearly there in Maccabees as well.

There are two figures in the ancient world, Jewish world, who Paul is identifying with: [1] Elijah & [2] Phineas.

They're the great messengers of zeal.

If you like, bad things are happening, we've got to do some sacred violence, to stamp out the nonsense & get Israel back on track [21:52]

And Paul is role-modeling Phineas & Elijah, and the texts which embody their stories are clearly present.

JB: And he was very much part of this movement that wanted to keep the law better, yeah, so that we hasten on this event through will. [22:07]

Tom Wright: And let's be quite clear, this is not as used to be said in Protestant rhetoric about:

Earning my ticket to Heaven, or doing enough good works so that GOD will be pleased with me.

It's GOD wants to renew & restore this world, & for the sake of that HE's called Israel out to be a special people, as HIS holy people.

And so it's for the sake of GOD's purposes they have to do this, & make more & more Jews do this stuff. [22:28]

So here's this bunch you are letting slide down; & going off after a crucified Messiah, who ever heard such nonsense? [22:34]

So Paul is off to do the Phineas thing, the Elijah thing

These are like the new prophets of Baal, & we know what we have to do with them. [22:40]

And then if you're in that mode, how do you pray?

We know from everything Paul says, he was a person suffused with prayer & there are standard Jewish prayers.

And it's a guess, but I'm not the only one to make this guess that on the road to Damascus,

he was meditating like many people in his tradition did on the throne chariot in the beginning of the Book of Ezekiel,

where the Prophet sees the whirling wheels & then the chariot, & then his eye is raised up & he sees the figure sitting on the throne & he falls down (crash as though dead).

And then the Prophet is commissioned et cetera. [23:15]

I think Paul was meditating on the Throne Chariot.

Longing to get a glimpse of the GOD he'd worshipped all his life, & I think he gets to that glimpse & it's JESUS of Nazareth.

And simultaneously, all his life is fulfilled & all his life is shattered.

And that is just the most devastating & the most fulfilling moment. [23:35-39]

And in a sense he spends the rest of his life working out what that means, & encouraging other people to explore with him.

What I wouldn't want to say is forcing them to do & believe that because you can't force people to do & believe that kind of stuff.

But helping them to share the sense that JESUS really is Israel's Messiah. [23:58]

JB: Lots of people have given different explanations for what happened to Paul, psychological, some epileptic fit maybe who knows.

Where do you go as a historian Tom Holland, with this, obviously very significant event that I think you'd agree there's some historical basis to it that something happened on the road to Damascus. [24:17]

What do you think happened there in your view?

Tom Holland: I think in the broadest context, Paul is negotiating a tension that is inherent within the understanding of the GOD of Israel.

Because HE is on the one hand the GOD of Israel, & HE is on the other hand the Creator of the entire world.

So how do you negotiate that tension? (Yes)

And in the globalizing world of the Roman Empire, which many Jews lived. This becomes a particularly pressing issue. So to what extent is GOD the Creator of the Greeks, Romans, & the Egyptians, & whoever else..

This is somewhere & anywhere kind of question. [24:58]

That you know we were talking about earlier; that we still have today (human rights issues)..

And I would suspect Paul is struggling to negotiate that as a Greek speaking Pharisee.

>> What persuades him to think the things that he does? I think it’s profoundly mysterious! [25:19]

And I have no doubt that he did think that: He had seen JESUS. I mean I can’t think of any other reason that would explain why he does what he does.

I mean it’s mysterious in 2 ways really:

1.] He chucks over what presumably would have been a very comfortable career, to essentially embark on a life as a kind of wandering bum, where he’s going to face repeated beatings, ultimately face death.

2.] The other is why it would ever cross his mind? That in some way a crucified criminal is a part of the ONE GOD of Israel?!

And the strange thing about all his letters is that although he’s arguing repeatedly for his understanding of who JESUS is & HE should be understood, & how HE should be comprehended..

I mean I may be corrected on this, but I don’t think at any point does he feel the need to actually argue that JESUS is in some way a part of GOD.

I mean this is just taken for granted; & everyone seems to understand this. [26:27]

Tom Wright: You’re absolutely right, it used to be so. And when you had Larry Hurtado on the show, you presumably discussed these kinds of things.

It used to be thought that JESUS only was regarded as fully divine much later, like the end of the first generation or even early second century. And only at the end of the NT period.

And I think now most NT scholars are convinced (actually) this is on the table from the beginning. It’s certainly taken for granted in Galatians, which I think is Paul’s earliest blessing [26:49]

Tom Holland: Yes, & the strangeness of that is something that we perhaps are kind of immune to, because it’s in the BIBLE, so you read it.

But you think though, why would he think this??

Why would anyone thing this?! [27:01]

JB: Yeah in this context, it is a very strange thing for a devout Jew to have thought.

Tom Holland: But I would guess, & I can’t remember whether you say this in your book because I read it a couple years ago, when in proof.

But having had presumably this kind of convulsive experience, presumably then he turns to SCRIPTURE to try & work out what’s happened. (JB: Yeah to try & process)

In essentially he reads through all the passages; & kind of constructs this theology. [27:33]

Tom Wright: I think one of the thins we fail to realize, often in modern Western Christianity—never mind the secular world —is the stories that people had in their heads about what GOD was going to do.

And particularly the end of the Book of Ezekiel hugely important, 7 parallels in Isaiah 40 & 52 particularly are GOD’s promised that HE will one day come back visibly in person. [27:53]

Isaiah 40:1-31 | “Comfort, comfort MY people,” says your GOD. “Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, & proclaim to her that her forced labor has been completed; her iniquity has been pardoned. For she has received from the hand of the LORD double for all her sins.” A voice of one calling:

“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness; make a straight highway for our GOD in the desert. Every valley shall be lifted up, & every mountain & hill made low; the uneven ground will become smooth, & the rugged land a plain.

And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, & all humanity together will see it.

For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” A voice says, “Cry out!” And I asked, “What should I cry out?”

“All flesh is like grass, & all its glory like the flowers of the field. The grass withers & the lowers fall when the breath of the LORD blows on them; indeed, the people are grass.

The grass withers & the flowers fall, but the WORD of our GOD stands forever.” Go up on a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good news. Raise your voice loudly, O Jerusalem, herald of good news. Lift it up, do not be afraid! Say to the cities of Judah, “Here is your GOD!” Behold, the LORD GOD comes with might, & HIS arm establishes HIS rule. HIS reward is with HIM, & HIS recompense accompanies HIM. HE tends HIS flock like a shepherd; HE gathers the lambs in HIS arms & carries them close to HIS heart. HE gently leads the nursing ewes. Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or marked off the heavens with the span of his hand? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on a scale & the hills with a balance? Who has directed the SPIRIT of the LORD, or informed HIM as HIS counselor? Whom did HE consult to enlighten HIM, & who taught HIM the paths of justice? Who imparted knowledge to HIM & showed HIM the way of understanding?

Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are considered a speck of dust on the scales; HE lifts up the islands like fine dust.

Lebanon is not sufficient for fuel, nor its animals enough for a burnt offering.

All the nations are as nothing before HIM; HE regards them as nothingness & emptiness. To whom will you liken GOD? To what image will you compare HIM?

To an idol that a craftsman casts & a metalworker overlays with gold & fits with silver chains?

To one bereft of an offering who chooses wood that will not rot, who seeks a skilled craftsman to set up an idol that will not topple?

Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning?

Have you not understood since the foundation of the earth? HE sits enthroned above the circle of the earth; its dwellers are like grasshoppers.

HE stretches out the heavens like a curtain, & spreads them out like a tent to live in.

HE brings the princes to nothing & makes the rulers of the earth meaningless. No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner have their stems taken root in the ground, than HE blows on them & they wither, & a whirlwind sweeps them away like stubble.

“To whom will you compare ME, or who is MY equal?” asks the Holy One.

Lift up your eyes on high: Who created all these? HE leads forth the starry host by number; HE calls each one by name. �� Because of HIS great power & mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

Why do you say, O Jacob, & why do you assert, O Israel, “My way is hidden from the LORD, & my claim is ignored by my GOD”?

Do you not know? Have you not heard?

The LORD is the everlasting GOD, the Creator of the ends of the earth. HE never grows faint or weary; HIS understanding is beyond searching out.

HE gives power to the faint & increases the strength of the weak. Even youths may faint & grow weary, & young men stumble & fall.

But those who wait upon the LORD will renew their strength; they will mount up with wings like eagles; they will run & not grow weary, they will walk & not faint.

To dwell in the Temple, to rescue HIS people, to do what has to be done et cetera, etc.

And those promises are kind of shimmering in the background; & some people in the Jewish world like the author of the book called Ben Sira, or Ecclesiasticus—seems to think that this sort of has happened because wisdom has come to dwell in the Temple in the form of the teaching of the Torah.

Now most Jews in Paul’s day, I don’t think believed that. [28:13] They still taught there was something major yet to happen.

And it is as though with Paul & indeed with the GOSPELS, it isn’t just that they are telling JESUS stories; & somehow saying btw there’s another dimension to this.

They are telling the story which is Israel’s story about GOD coming back, but the only way they can tell it is by talking about JESUS.

So it’s not just a JESUS story with a GOD dimension, it’s actually the GOD story with the JESUS focus. [28:39]

And it’s hard for us to realize that because the last 200 years, philosophically & theologically, we haven’t been there.

So when I look at how Paul is handling Isaiah, how he’s handling the passages about the new Exodus with the pillar of cloud & fire coming. Only now it’s JESUS & the SPIRIT.

You see he’s drawing on Jewish traditions about the Presence & saving power of GOD.

And then of course they all get focused not least on that middle chunk of Isaiah—where you get the so called suffering servant.

And the suffering servant seems to be GOD saying actually when you look to see what it’s like when I come back to rescue you:

Oh my! It’s going to be like this; & we see Jewish exegesis at the time struggling with Isaiah 53.

● Some of them thinking, it’s a Messiah, but actually the suffering is what HE inflicts on other people

● And other people thinking: “No it’s real suffering but it’s the martyrs, it’s not the Messiah.”

And JESUS, then Paul picking this up —seemed to have fused these two together.

with this extraordinary notion of a suffering Messiah. [29:40]

Who turns out to be the personal embodiment of Israel’s GOD.

And then we see this already, by early on in Paul woven into fresh prayings of Central Jewish prayers the famous one in 1 Corinthians 8, where it’s hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD the LORD is one, & Paul astonishingly finds JESUS inside that, so he says for us there is one GOD the FATHER from whom are all things we to HIM & one LORD JESUS the Messiah through whom are all things. [30:14]

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 | So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, & that there is no GOD but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth [as there are many so-called gods & lords], yet for us there is but one GOD, the FATHER, from whom all things came & for whom we exist. And there is but one LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through whom all things came & through whom we exist.

So you’ve got he’s the Oscar, he’s curious, but it’s GOD & JESUS.

At the heart of Jewish monotheism Paul finds this bifurcation.

JB: And in a sense that is a massive transformation, but at the same time somehow—for Paul it is a fulfillment.

Tom Wright: It’s a final revelation because he then obviously looks back & says “Whoa! we now read the SCRIPTURES with this in mind. [30:38]

HE is the image of the invisible GOD, so when humans were made in GOD’s image— HE is the image in whom we were made.

JB: And just how strange would this idea of a GOD who— or a Messiah or whatever, who becomes crucified have been in the Roman world that this message was being delivered?

Tom Holland: Beyond weird, it’d be totally beyond weird. As Paul repeatedly says, I mean, he says that you know “it’s foolishness, scandalous, outrageous, it’s ridiculous, & he’s aware of this the whole time [30:58-31:12]

JB: Just how embarrassing this is in a sense.

Tom Holland: Well it is kind of I mean & that is the whole point that (yeah) to suffer death on a cross is [31:20]

It’s the worst death that the Roman state can inflict, but it is also shaming in the context of the Mosaic law which also says that to be hung on a tree as a cause of (a curse).

JB: We often forget with our stylized depictions of the crucifixion just how gory & shameful it was.

Tom Holland: Yes, absolutely & so what is happening is that it’s like a kind of the ultimate judo throw—where you turn the strength of your opponent against them.

The Roman power is affirmed by brutality, the governor of a Province has the right to burn, to throw to beasts, to crucify anyone who he feels is a danger to Roman power. [32:05]

And governors did that absolutely at the drop of a hat.

So what is happening with Paul’s proclamation of the one GOD in some way suffering this fate is to absolutely upend the very fabric & basis—not just of Roman power, but of powerful stock because of course the Assumption through from reading the Jewish SCRIPTURES was that GOD is a warrior & GOD will overthrow Roman power.

The establishment of a kingdom of peace will in some way be effected by the sword & what Paul is saying is that actually the true source of power is to suffer.

And that notion, you know, that to be a victim can somehow be a source of power is unbelievably subversive in the context of classical antiquity. [32:56-33:05]

JB: And it’s still today to some extent, but I mean you know it’s not as though we all believe that today.

Tom Holland: Although you see it all the time in the news at the moment—that to cast yourself as a victim is somehow to give yourself power. And you would only have power by virtue of being a victim if you existed in the context of a society that was still in its fundamentals Christian.

In the Roman world if you said I’m a victim, they’d say: “Yeah, and...?? I’ll enslave you!” (lol) [33:27]

Tom Wright: Exactly thanks very much. Tom Holland: Or I’ll rape you whatever.

JB: And on top of this there was also this statement, which I think was being used in quite a political way of saying, “JESUS is LORD” which was obvious.

Set against the idea that well, “No Caesar is lord.”

Tom Holland: If we think of Paul arriving in Galatia, it would seem that in some way that the Galatians feel that they have a particular relationship to the figure of Augustus. [33:58]

So they transcribe the ray’s guessed by his account of his achievements. And it seems to have been done to a far greater degree than anywhere else in the Roman Empire.

So they are inscribing this idea of Augustus, who describes himself as (divi filius) son of god, son of Caesar but you know he’s been raised up to the heavens.

He has been a prince of peace, he has established a universal amnesty across the world & this is uangei leon, this is good news to be proclaimed. [34:35]

But the statues of Augustus, the Res Gestae of Augustus, the very essence of Augustus is that the peace that he has brought has been brought by a sword.

He is an imperato, he is a general who is victorious.

This is what an emperor is, &so in the cities that Paul is arriving at, this cult of Caesar—which is the fastest growing cult, probably in history up until that point, you know it’s spread like wildfire & it’s not a kind of frigid cult.

It’s a cult that people across the Roman world, invest in with a deep emotional sense. This idea of a conquering human, who is ‘divine’ & who has risen from the earth & “gone to the heavens.”

Augustus is the epitome of earthly power (of his day).

And so in that context, the subversion that Paul is affecting by turning up & saying actually the SON of GOD that I preach is someone who was crucified by Roman power.

I mean you, it’s kind of makes you wince.

JB: But why did it work then? Why did anyone listen to such a crazy message? [35:52]

Tom Wright: That’s a great question, I just want to endorse everything that Tom said, I think it is one of the most extraordinary turnarounds in history that the symbolism of crucifixion said: “we run this world, & if you get in our way, we’ll rub you out.”

And that is callous brutal power.

Then to have within 20 years, the crucifixion as a symbol of all conquering self giving love, that’s just quite extraordinary.

And as you said, we in the modern Christian world see crucifixes we have them, we wear them, you know..as jewelry decoration, or nice pretty things in Churches.

But actually this was like an electric chair or a horrible gallows or something.

So why did it work?

I think if we’d have asked Paul that, he would have said because when you announce the crucified JESUS as LORD, there is a strange power, which he sometimes calls the GOSPEL or other times calls the SPIRIT.

And that power goes to work in people’s minds & hearts.

And stuff happens, they find themselves gripped & grasped by it; & I think Paul would have said there is no logical explanation. Of course, there is no one who actually wants to sign off this.

But it’s everything that Tom Holland was saying just now was reminding me of Mark 8, where JESUS says,

“We’re going to Jerusalem & it’s all going to happen; & if you want to come after ME, you’ve got to be prepared to die. Take up your cross as well.” [37:06]

I think they thought it was a metaphor. But in fact, JESUS really meant it.

Then in Mark 10 when HE says (when James & John want to sit int the best seats, to be HIS right & left-hand men) & HE said:

“Don’t you realize the rulers of the nations bully people, & harassed & lauded. We’re not going to do it that way; we’re going to do it the other way.

Anyone who wants to be great must be your servant.

Because the SON of MAN did not come to be served, but to serve & to give HIS life as a ransom for many.

JESUS HIMSELF is precisely articulating the redefinition of power with the cross at the center of that.

Paul picks up from that, & says what he’d actually want to say:

[1] On the cross JESUS did in fact defeat the principalities, & powers. He says that in 2 or 3 passages. HE disarms the powers & made a public example.

Of course it didn’t look like that.

This is the theological interpretation in the light of the resurrection. But then when you’ve got that interpretation, you can go to work & say [38:04]

“Now actually JESUS crucified is the fulcrum around which world history turns & ppl find that it’s true for them"

JB: I mean this brings us to that interesting tension, that you sit in a sense as both a believer & a historian of the SCRIPTURES, Tom Wright. [38:16-38:31]

Because in a sense you’re saying the explanation Paul would have given is that something supernatural happened.

This GOSPEL changed people, or are you? (lol)

And are you allowed to as a historian to say it? [38:39]

Tom Wright: It will be interesting to see what happens when Tom Holland gets past Galileo & onto the 18th & 19th century.

Because this word supernatural has changed its meaning (OK) the word supernatural in the Middle Ages as far as I understand

—meant a super abundance of godness over on top of, but not excluding what goes on, so it’s what normally goes on plus some extra dimensions.

But from the 18th century onwards, something very interesting happened culturally & the ancient philosophy called Epicureanism really became the dominant philosophy of the west. [39:09]

Epicureanism is a system of philosophy based on the teachings of Epicurus, founded around 307 B.C.

It teaches that the greatest good is to seek modest pleasures in order to attain a state of tranquility, freedom from fear ("ataraxia") and absence from bodily pain ("aponia").

And with Epicureanism the gods & our world are totally sepparate.

They’re made of the same stuff, they’re made of atoms, but they have nothing to do with us—so supernatural means something out there, as opposed to something down here. [39:23]

Then Christians trying to make sense of the faith within a basically epicurean world, think of GOD quote intervening—so you either have natural events or supernatural events [providence of GOD]

And I resist that dichotomy, I think it’s a product of agency.

JB: And this is of course, if you want more on this, “the Gifford lectures” that you gave this year. [39:38]

Tom Wright: Thank you, yes. Tom Holland: Brilliantly done [lol]

Tom Wright: That’s very nice, but unfortunately it’s gonna take a little while before they get published. Because I’ve got some work to do, but they are available online.

Yeah YouTube, goodness.

But the point is this, that we still in our culture & I think I say this in on of the Givens actually. The only real question that the great British public knows theologically:

“Does GOD intervene in the world or doesn’t HE?”

Which is why a journalist faced with the new archbishop says: “Do you believe in the virgin birth & resurrection?”

In other words, “Are you going to be one of those embarrassing fundamentalists, who says you believe it all? Or are you going to be one of those equally dodgy liberals, who says you disbelieve it all?” [40:21]

It’s a horrible dilemma.

And I’m going to say: “Wrong question”

For me as a historian, the more I know about hisotry, the more I think yeah all sorts of odd things happen in the world.

And the idea that everything is just a closed continuum is a very particular philosophical thing.

So I want to have it both ways actually. [40:41]

JB: How do you approach this, because we can talk about metaphysical commitments on your part Tom Holland.

But at the end of the day, someone like you’re sitting opposite Tom Wright. Obviously, does believe the BIBLE to be both a historical document that we can both agree on.

You can pull apart & dissect & look at.

But it’s also a source of divine revelation at some level. [41:02]

Tom Holland: [missed initial opening, JB talked over TH]

...Rather as a kind of Darwinian rite, in the sense that I assume Christianity triumphs, or you know achieves what it achieves.

Because it gives something that people want (yes)

They haven’t previously been given, so there’s a social survival of the fittest.

It’s evident, most famously, from St. Paul’s stay in Athens that there is in a sense a marketplace for gods in antiquity.

So if you think of Paul arriving in Galatia, the Galatian gods are famously horrible. [41:38]

There’s one god that supposedly goes around punching women in the breasts; & you think this is not kind or particularly pleasant.

The other deity in Galatia is Keyblade, who sits on a mighty mountain & in the ecstasy of their worship, men will castrate themselves in her honour [41:59]

And Paul kind of makes a grim joke about this, saying if his opponents: I wish that they would castrate gods.

(Tom Wright: cut the whole lot of them)

So these are a kind of intimidating gods, these are gods who certainly don’t love you.

Maybe you’re a philosopher & you look at the god of Aristotle, you had to love this fixed mover, but there’s no implication at all that it loved you back.

JB: And if it was a relationship, it was quite transactional. (yeah) it was to keep them happy, & then we can get on with our lives? [42:30]

Tom Holland: And that is also true of D.V. Phileas Augustus.

You know this is also a kind of transactional relationship, we were worshiping & then please don’t come & kill us.

[Tom Wright: yeah]

Now so in that context, the GOD of the Jews, “you know, it provokes a lot of mockery, a lot of kind of contempt” [42:47]

But also a fair degree of envy.

Because actually I think it’s pretty clear, that there are lots of people (in the Greco-Roman world) who were quite jealous of this idea of a GOD who loves the Jews. [42:58]

And who particularly cares for them.

And who would like to be a FATHER; & so you have these kind of liminal figures who you know (they’re Gentiles) but they kind of would like to have a part of this kind of Jewish vibe.

In anthropology, liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold") is the quality of ambiguity or disorientation that occurs in the middle stage of a rite of passage, when participants no longer hold their pre-ritual status but have not yet begun the transition to the status they will hold when the rite is complete.

And in that context Paul turning up & saying: You don’t have to give up all, you don’t have to be circumcised.

And this GOD loves you, as HE loves me! [43:22]

JB: I can see why that would have been attractive.

Tom Holland: I think you can absolutely see why that would have been attractive (right).

And I think that clearly this does cut through to people who are relatively prosperous & Paul mentions them in his letters. [43:35]

Women as well as men who can provide him with funding & with backing. But it must also have given (I mean what) the impact it must have had on slaves. [43:49]

To be told, that you are one with the free.

To be told, you know, a slave in Rome (in a household of a Christian) to be told you are a child of GOD.

At the time when Nero is absolutely in his pomp, & Nero is kind of dramatizing what it is to be a 'son of' (you know) the ‘son of a god’...

In the Augustan sense, to an astonishingly historic degree.

For a slave in the attic, in the suburbs of Rome, to be told (I mean) it must have been overwhelming. [44:22]

Tom Wright: Also for women, it’s a point that Rodney Stark makes in his book “The Rise of Christianity” & I think it needs to be drawn out particularly in today’s culture [44:30]

But the valuing of women, there is no fe/male in Galatians 3, that is almost unthinkable in a post Aristotle world—where wo/men are almost differnt species.

And you know who’s in charge here..

Then when you see the way that Paul treats his female co-workers in the way that..when he writes this extraordinary letter called Romans.

One of the most amazing pieces of writing in the ancient world.

He entrusted to Phoebe, who is a deacon in the Church in Kencreo. She takes it to Rome. [45:01]

I mean to know Tom Holland’s take on this, but my understanding is when you give a letter to somebody to take to somebody (or to a group); she is likely to be the person who reads it out & quite possibly explains it [45:12]

May be the first to..

JB: There is another brilliant book, that I’m sure you’re aware of by Paula Gouda, on this very subject.

Her novelization of Phoebe’s..

Tom Wright: I know of that.

I’m very proud of Paula, she’s a former student of mine; & I’m looking forward to reading that book, yes. [45:25]

JB: A different, actually, interlocutor—that was a Francesca Stavrakopoulou

(Tom Holland: Ohh she doesn’t like Paul)

JB: Well she likes Paula, & funnily enough Francesca was a student of Paula’s (Tom Wright: right, lol, okay) so yes its the world of books.

Tom Wright: I’m very much interested & would like to press this further, because I do totally agree that this idea that you can all be one. [45:49]

There is a new community, & you are loved & valued.

I was thinking about this in relation to forgiveness, the other day. The ancient gods didn’t forgive people.

I mean Zeus & Poseidon code, you might be able to placate them, or you might be able to sneak around when they weren’t watching [46:04]

But the idea that they would forgive you..is quite different.

I don’t think you’d find that in the Greco-Roman world. [46:10]

And people didn’t as far as I know reckon that they were going around needing forgiveness in that sense. [46:16]

JB: But I’m still confused at one level, as to..

I mean I accept this thesis that the reason it caught on was because it allowed slaves to suddenly feel like they were people who maybe wanted in on this. [46:30]

But at the same time, you make it very clear in teh book [Tom Wirght] just how socially inconvenient it was to be a Christian. [TW: It’s massively so]

It’s like this is a way to climb the ladder. [46:39]

Tom Wright: I mean no, absolutely not.

This is part of the problem all the way through, in the first Thessalonians—Paul was looking back to the time when they became believers just a few weeks earlier.

He says: “You turned from idols to serve the living & true GOD.

Now it’s hard for us to imagine what that’s like, but an ancient city like Thessalonica or Corinth or Ephesus, or any where..

You’ve got idol temples, or temples on every street corner.

You’ve got processions & you’ve got games in honour of the lord god so-and-so; particularly lord Caesar, [47:00-47:08]

You’ve got celebrations, regular festivals, & regular holidays, & everyone shows up.

people areregularly coming through the streets with sacrificial animals, it’s what you do.

And in a world where there is no such thing as private life, except for the very very rich—everybody knows if you suddenly aren’t showing up..

“You know that family down the street, they haven’t been to anything this last month—what’s going on?”

“Oh haven’t you hard they’ve joined this funny new group,...(Well who are they?) They say they’re Jews, but they’re not—so we don’t know who they are..”

And so suddenly, you’re not doing all the things that people in your world would normally do..[47:35-47:40]

JB: You liken it, in the modern world, as simple as say going into Wall Street & sort of saying:

“Right we have got to abandon all of these financial institutions..& the way we run our lives.” [47:48]

Tom Wright: Or you know, I sometimes say to people when they ask why didn’t Paul say: Slavery was wrong?

I say, “Well, when did you last go into the pulpit on a Sunday morning & say, “BTW it’s quite clear that motorcars are polluting our planet & destroying our world, so I want you to leave your cars in the parking lot & we’ll have them take them to the dump later on. Because we’re all going to be either walking or on horseback from now on.” [48:06]

Most congregations would not think that was a very good sermon, but actually when you’re talking about a major social revolution—you’re just not going to be doing those processions anymore. [48:17]

This is why in southern Greece, they get permission to shelter under the Jewish (law) because the Jews had permission not to do that stuff.

And this is where a lot of the hassle comes from.

Because then when suddenly there’s a bunch of non-Jews claiming the same permission—the authorities want to know who are...?

Then they’ll go around to the Jewish communities: Who are these people?

JB: Then they sense things getting out of control.

Tom Wright: I think this is the best explanation for a lot that’s going on in Galatians particularly & I’m very interested in Tom Holland’s insight. [48:45]

Tom Holland: Well I’ve got a slightly edgier comparison (JB: OK go on) any comparison between the 21st century & the 1st century is obviously you know, they’re so different.

But if you think about the spread of radical Islam, if you think about the way people worry about their family members becoming radicalized.

I think might have some faint echo of how it’s working.

And we were talking about Paul’s use of letters—the reason that he can communicate across the Roman world is because there is an enormous road system.

Which is being used by Caesar & by governors to communicate (JB: “their gospel”), yeah.

So it’s the kind of ganglion that’s connecting the fabric of the mighty brain of Rome. [48:55-49:31]

And Paul is kind of piggybacking on that rather in the way that Islamic radicals are piggybacking on the internet.

Which was originally developed by the American Defense establishment.

JB: The internet is our Roman Road Systems of today?

Tom Holland: Yeah, & so it’s using technology & infrastructure of a superpower, to come up with things that are profoundly opposed to it.

And in a sense part of the appeal of radical Islam, is precisely that it is subversive of almost everything that people in secular society take for granted. [50:05]

I’m not saying that Paul is with...I’m not comparing Paul to a kind of ISIS.

JB: Sure, I understand the principle you’re employing.

Tom Holland: But part of that, people say, “Why would anyone run off to Syria?”

And you know, sign-up to this terrifying cult?

In a sense, it’s precisely the challenge of it —that becomes the appeal. [50:28]

And Paul talks a lot about the SPIRIT bringing freedom; & that idea of being free in a world where everyone else is not free—gives you a kind of dignity & status that in the long run will enable people to suffer torture & even death in the cause of affirming that. [50:55]

And to this extent, I think that Paul & the early Christians are the ancestors of ISIS.

And are the ancestors of almost every group that defines themselves in terms of belief.

Because they’re willing to suffer martyrdom for belief.

You don’t really get—I mean you know there’s Socrates—is kind of an example...

But the idea that you as a slave—you’re willing to suffer death for a belief that is really something that originates from Paul.

Tom Wright: Obviously there are parallels, & it’s very interesting to explore those; & they go back of course to the pre-Christian Jewish radical zealots.

As in the Maccabean period who were perepared to die for their hope that GOD was going to renew the world [51:47]

And you see that in the book called 2nd Maccabees, particularly..

The Second Book of Maccabees, also known as 2 Maccabees, is a deuterocanonical book originally in Greek which focuses on the Maccabean Revolt against Antiochus IV Epiphanes & concludes with the defeat of the Seleucid Empire general Nicanor in 161 BC by Judas Maccabeus, the hero of the hard work.

Tom Holland: I mean that’s also about kind of defending land. That’s always something there. [51:55]

Tom Wright: Defending land, re-establishing the temple, et cetra, etc. etc. sure. Yes, but what we see in Paul is the taking of that radical ttradition which is also a violent tradition.

I mean some of them are martyred, but some of them are going to sharpen their swords & win an extraordinary battle.

In the 2nd century AD, you see this with the Bar Kokhba Revolt in 132-135, we have a brief little messianic kingdom of Judea.

The Bar Kokhba revolt was a rebellion of the Jews of the Roman province of Judea, led by Simon bar Kokhba, against the Roman Empire. Fought circa 132–136 AD, it was the last of three major Jewish–Roman wars, so it is also known as The Third Jewish–Roman War or The Third Jewish Revolt.

Under the rule of this man, the son of the star, & they are going to have (they think) an astonishing victory over the Romans. So that continues on...[52:26]

What you see in Paul has all of that energy, but turned upside down—exactly as what Tom Hollands was saying before through the notion of the crucifixion & resurrection of JESUS. [52:37]

That this is a different kind of victory, won by a different kind of means.

And we see if there is a sense in which Paul is the ancestor of ISIS, then Paul is also the ancestor of St. Francis & of Mother Theresa.

And to the people who are saying,

“No there is a different way to transform the world & it is the the way of love, it is the way of self-giving.” [52:57]

And the ancestor of people like Desmond Tutu, who you know we forget that in the 70s, Desmond Tutu was standing in-front of crowds of angry people (his own people) who wanted to use violence & he was saying that is not the way we transformed the world. [53:11]

And astonishingly, that message got through & won the day.

Though, South Africa is still difficult—but there is a message of love & forgiveness. [53:20]

Tom Holland: Well I hesitate to bring up the subject of Paul & the LORD in the presence of Tom Wright. [53:26]

I mean it’s a hubristic thing to do, but Paul is clearly also (I think) the ancestor of the modern notions of international law that ISIS is committed to overthrowing.

Because what Paul introduces in to the bloodstream of the West; & then by extension because the West spreads those ideas across the world.

The entire kind of global framework of how international law is structured, is the idea that:

GOD’s law can be written on the heart.

That you no longer need the Torah, the SPIRIT will write it on the heart & therefore you will know what is right.

And that will be illumined.

What that gives in the long run, the West is a notion that law can be human & can be morally valid.

And that’s the great contrast with the Islamic world —where law is in a sense (the Torah & Talmud) you know Sharia is about the idea of GOD having directly revealed a kind of legal rulings. [54:36]

Tom Wright: Which is imposed on people whether they like it or not. (Yes)

Tom Holland: Whereas in the West the idea that law can be something that is of human origin is absolutely taken for granted.

And this is kind of the great gripe that Islamic radicals have with international law; it’s precisely that they recognize it’s Christian origins. [54:53-54:59]

So there’s a guy (Al Makdessi), a Palestinian Jordanian radical, who was hugely influential intellectually on ISIS & Al Qaeda.

And he destests Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia is part of the United Nations; & he’s saying:

“Well the charter of the UN is of human origins” >> It is not of divine origin.

So essentially his argument is with the Pauline idea that..

Tom Wright: That is fascinating & it goes (I mean) obviously that’s an ancient Jewish idea..[55:27] (The 10 Commandments).

The writing of the law on the heart is in Jeremiah & Ezekiel—& it fits with this whole idea that basically Pauline Christianity is to coin an odd phrase: Judaism for the masses.

I mean Nietzsche said it was Platonism for the masses.

That’s absolutely wrong, it s in the 19th century many Christians were Platonists & that’s a problem.

But the idea that this Jewish insight about a loving GOD who will inscribe the law in the hearts of HIS people; & now this could happen to anyone!? [55:51]

Tom Holland: Just as liberalism is Christianity for the masses.

Tom Wright: In a sense, up to a point lord copper. (lol) Let’s not go there.

But then what we get with that is with Paul this extraordinary thing which (when I was writing this book) it impinged on me again that:

What we already see when there’s a rumour that there’s going to be a famine coming the Church in Antioch instantly, instead of stockpiling food, they said we’ve got to help them down in Jerusalem. [56:16]

And you have a sense of a trans local community, as well as a trans-ethnic community in a way which I think is unprecedented in ancient world.

The Jewish communities, the synagogue communities were trans local, they were across the world.

They sort of knew about one another.

And were in touch with one anther, but it was basically Jews & proselytes, or GOD-fearers or whoever.

And there were trans local communities of the Roman Imperial administration & the Roman army.

But that was all jolly well, loyal to Caesar, thank you very much. [56:47]

What you have in Christianity is a community, which Paul insists is one. It’s a united community, & has to struggle for that unity.

And that is precisely the origin of the UN.

That’s a Christian Pauline idea.

The problem is if you try to get it without the roots, in an explicit belief in this particular GOD who has rescued the world in this particular way...

Well you can see, go to the UN today.

You can whistle for it. [57:13]

Because it’s falling apart. Because we’ve tried to get it without the basis.

JB: Gonna have to leave it there. I wish we had more time, but thank you so much gentlemen.

Both Tom Holland & Tom Wright for joining me on the program today. And Tom Holland we want you back when your book is available; & we’ll get you in another interesting discussion about it.

Tom Wright, looking forward (we’ve got alittle bit of a plan in the pipeline), for a regular podcast with you.

So watch this space if you’re a Tom Wright fan.

You might be able to get more conversations like this coming to you, in the future. But for the moment thank you both for being with me on Unbelievable.

Tom Holland: Thank you. Tom Wright: It’s been a pleasure.

Unbelievable Christian Radio | Jul 20, 2018 Video: youtube.com/watch?v=nlf_ULB26cU

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#providence of GOD #supernatural events

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