#asoiaf theory tier list | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

istumpysk · 8 months

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OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Curtain of Light

TIER:

Fanfiction: These "theories" are nothing short of delusional fan-crafted fantasies, embarrassingly disconnected from any shred of textual reality.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Oh boy!

First, let's outline the theory.

Please note, like any other fan theory, there are always minor differences of opinion. So, we'll cover the basics that most people seem to agree on.

Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon.

To defeat the Others, they will each mount a dragon and travel as far north as possible, beyond a curtain of light, where they will encounter a Lovecraftian, apocalyptic dimension filled with all kinds of monsters.

While they are beyond this curtain of light, they will engage in life-affirming activities in the face of death. Some believe this could manifest as Tyrion learning to love himself, childbirth, or a sexual encounter between Jon and Daenerys.

They will then sacrifice themselves and their dragons to defeat the Others. Presumably, much will go up in flames.

Apparently, this epitomizes the theme of the human heart in conflict with itself and will serve as the conclusion of the story.

Now, for the evidence...

Oops, there isn't any.

If you've ever had the privilege of reading someone discuss this theory, you'll have noticed a glaring lack of textual support. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to piece together a coherent argument for why this could happen.

(Honestly, I'm a bit bitter that I'm putting in more effort to prove this theory than anyone else has.)

What does it mean when something is Lovecraftian?

To borrow from dictionary.com, 'Lovecraftian' pertains to elements reminiscent of the works of fantasy and horror writer H.P. Lovecraft, especially those that depict monstrous, misshapen beings from other dimensions or universes.

George R. R. Martin, a fan of literature, incorporates numerous Lovecraftian references in his A Song of Ice and Fire series and its associated works.

Examples include:

Leng (Island): Inspired by Lovecraft's Plateau of Leng.

Sarnath (City): Likely inspired by the city of Sarnath in Lovecraft's "The Doom that Came to Sarnath."

Ib (Island/Civilization): Possibly a nod to Ib from "The Doom that Came to Sarnath."

K'dath in the Grey Waste: Inspired by Lovecraft's Kadath in the Cold Waste.

Church/Cult of Starry Wisdom: A probable reference to the same cult in Lovecraft's "The Haunter of the Dark."

Deep Ones: Likely inspired by the aquatic creatures in Lovecraft's "The Shadow over Innsmouth."

"What's dead may never die": Possibly inspired by Lovecraft's phrase "That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange eons even death may die."

The Drowned God: Possibly a nod to Lovecraft's Cthulhu.

Dagon: An Ironborn-associated name, also an ancient being in Lovecraft's lore.

The Black Goat of Qohor: Possibly a reference to Lovecraft's Shub-Niggurath, the "Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young."

N'Ghai and Nefer: Likely inspired by Lovecraft's N'Kai, an underground realm associated with Tsathoggua.

Are you noticing a pattern? These nods to Lovecraft are mostly found in peripheral settings, with minor association to the Ironborn. George tends to make a lot of references to all kinds of literature in a similar fashion.

I'd hesitate to jump to the conclusion that this implies the existence of a parallel universe with otherworldly monsters, accessible via a portal in the far north. But since this is appearing in the evidence section, I guess we'll do that anyway.

Moving on.

The words "curtain of light" appear in a Bran chapter. One time. In only this chapter.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live. - Bran III, AGOT

Melisandre also references curtains, though they are clearly different curtains than Bran's curtains. Whatever, it's fine.

Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky. - Melisandre I, ADWD

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. - Melisandre I, ADWD

There is a place called the Land of Always Winter. It's like the Arctic.

The icy trenches rose around them, knee high, then waist high, then higher than their heads. They were in the heart of Winterfell with the castle all around them, but no sign of it could be seen. They might have easily been lost amidst the Land of Always Winter, a thousand leagues beyond the Wall. - Theon I, ADWD

Yet no matter the truths of their arts, the children were led by their greenseers, and there is no doubt that they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Dawn Age

What is commonly accepted is that the Age of Heroes began with the Pact and extended through the thousands of years in which the First Men and the children lived in peace with one another. With so much land ceded to them, the First Men at last had room to increase. From the Land of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, the First Men ruled from their ringforts. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Age of Heroes

The Others are believed to originate from the Land of Always Winter, where, according to legend, you can also find spooky ice spiders.

However, I should mention, a detail that might be easily missed in the books is that they are currently at Hardhome and continue to press south towards the Wall.

Yet there are other tales—harder to credit and yet more central to the old histories—about creatures known as the Others. According to these tales, they came from the frozen Land of Always Winter, bringing the cold and darkness with them as they sought to extinguish all light and warmth. The tales go on to say they rode monstrous ice spiders and the horses of the dead, resurrected to serve them, just as they resurrected dead men to fight on their behalf. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Long Night

In 2012, George confirmed that future books would explore further and further north. No shit, you don't say. I wonder if Bran's journey through history, where we learn more about the origins of the Others, has anything to do with that.

"And what lies really north in my books—we haven't explored that yet, but we will in the last two books." - George R. R. Martin

Bran uses the common metaphor "the heart of _____ (winter)" in the same passage that the curtain of light appears. Later, in another book, Daenerys enters the House of the Undying, where she encounters blue figures reminiscent of the Others. There, she finds a literal blue heart that appears to be their life force. Drogon eats it. Together, these things might suggest that there is a literal blue heart beyond a portal that needs to be set on fire to defeat the Others.

Also, another time, Theon stands in the middle of Winterfell and uses the same "the heart of" metaphor (common phrase found throughout the series). Shortly after, he references the Land of Always Winter, so I thought I would throw it in to be generous.

He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. - Bran III, AGOT

They were in the heart of Winterfell with the castle all around them, but no sign of it could be seen. They might have easily been lost amidst the Land of Always Winter, a thousand leagues beyond the Wall. - Theon I, ADWD

A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows. As Dany walked to the empty chair at the foot of the table, they did not stir, nor speak, nor turn to face her. There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart. [...] Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather. She is not breathing. Dany listened to the silence. None of them are breathing, and they do not move, and those eyes see nothing. Could it be that the Undying Ones were dead? [...] Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. - Daenerys IV, ACOK

Only its eyes lived. Bright blue, just as Jon said. They shone like frozen stars.

[...]

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. - Samwell I, ASOS

If you cherry-pick through the text and remove all context, you might be able to piece together a few sentences suggesting that life and love will defeat the Others and that a great self-sacrifice is imminent.

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. - Bran II, AGOT

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. - Jon VIII, AGOT

"Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same." - Sansa IV, ACOK

"You're mine," she whispered. "Mine, as I'm yours. And if we die, we die. All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we'll live." - Jon V, ASOS

Someone threw a stone, and when Dany looked, her shoulder was torn and bloody. "No," she wept, "no, please, stop it, it's too high, the price is too high." More stones came flying. - Daenerys VIII, AGOT

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up." "I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly. "You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son." - Jon I, AGOT

Daenerys is convinced that there will be three heads of the dragon, and let me tell you, that girl's expectations are always fulfilled.

"If you were grown," she told Drogon, scratching him between the horns, "I'd fly you over the walls and melt that harpy down to slag." But it would be years before her dragons were large enough to ride. And when they are, who shall ride them? The dragon has three heads, but I have only one. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . . - Daenerys V, ASOS

If the author leads you to believe that something will happen, it must be true.

Lastly, I should mention that there are vague references suggesting that George has written other stories with events and themes similar to this proposed ending. However, I can't verify these claims, and unsurprisingly, the works in question are never cited.

Well, that was it.

Say what you will about the "Daario is Euron" theorists, but at least they attempt to back up their crazy idea with actual text from the books.

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

To put it bluntly, this theory has no basis—no textual support, no historical parallels, no evidence in the companion books, no prophetic visions, no dreams, no myths, no legends, no similarities to the television show, and no foreshadowing to speak of. It is entirely made up, with only a few words from the text as its foundation.

Does that sound like George R. R. Martin to you?

That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective. - Anne Groell, George R. R. Martin's editor

A Song of Ice and Fire is about the people of Westeros putting aside their petty differences and uniting against two existential threats: ice, represented by the Others, and fire, represented by Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons. It's not a story about fire defeating ice.

Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, "A Song of Ice and Fire." The central stuff — the stuff that's happening in the middle, in King's Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more based on historical events, historical fiction. It's loosely drawn from the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100 Years' War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms, within King's Landing — who's going to be king? Who's going to be on the Small Council? Who's going to determine the policies? — that they're blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms. - George R. R. Martin

Ice and fire of course are also opposites, they're a duality and there's a lot in my books that are about duality. Certainly the religion of Melisandre, one of the most important characters, I think is basically a dualist religion with the premise that there are two gods. It's somewhat based on Zoroastrianism, and a little bit based on Catharism, Albigenses heresy who I know had some roots here in Spain once upon a time, before they were all killed. The idea of a world divided between good and evil, war between the two, which is so basic to so many fantasy starting with Tolkien, but much more so in the case of Tolkien imitators, was something that I wanted to recast and think about and maybe subvert a little. But I'm still using kind of the language of it, and some of the symbols associated with it. So all of these are grist for the mill, it's not something as simple as saying ice is this and fire is that. They're both many things. And one of the most important things is that both of them, ice and fire will kill you dead. So they're both dangerous in their own ways, hate, love, desire, coldness, they can both be deadly. - George R. R. Martin

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons. The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." - The Original Outline

I have tried to make it explicit in the novels that the dragons are destructive forces, and Dany (Daenerys Targaryen) has found that out as she tried to rule the city of Meereen and be queen there.

She has the power to destroy, she can wipe out entire cities, and we certainly see that in 'Fire and Blood,' we see the dragons wiping out entire armies, wiping out towns and cities, destroying them, but that doesn't necessarily enable you to rule — it just enables you to destroy. - George R. R. Martin

In the established lore of A Song of Ice and Fire, dragons can't cross the Wall and dislike cold and wet weather. How exactly will they get to this Lovecraftian Land of Always Winter, and how will they be of any use in that climate?

The men of the Night's Watch were as thunderstruck by the queen's dragon as the people of White Harbor had been, though the queen herself noted that Silverwing "does not like this Wall." Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap. "Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall," Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, "but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still." - Fire & Blood: Jaehaerys and Alysanne—Their Triumphs and Tragedies

Autumn was well advanced when the Prince of Dragonstone came to Winterfell. The snows lay deep upon the ground, a cold wind was howling from the north, and Lord Stark was in the midst of his preparations for the coming winter, yet he gave Jacaerys a warm welcome. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said, so the prince did not linger long amongst the northmen, but many a curious tale came out of that short sojourn. - Fire & Blood: the Dying of the Dragons—A Son for a Son

The big man looked out toward the terrace. "I knew it would rain," he said in a gloomy tone. "My bones were aching last night. They always ache before it rains. The dragons won't like this. Fire and water don't mix, and that's a fact. You get a good cookfire lit, blazing away nice, then it starts to piss down rain and next thing your wood is sodden and your flames are dead." - The Dragontamer, ADWD

He saw no sign of dragons, but he had not expected to. The dragons did not like the rain. - The Queen's Hand, ADWD

(bonus, for laughs:)

"The things…Mother have mercy, I do not know how to speak of them…they were…worms with faces…snakes with hands…twisting, slimy, unspeakable things that seemed to writhe and pulse and squirm as they came bursting from her [Aerea Targaryen] flesh. Some were no bigger than my little finger, but one at least was as long as my arm…oh, Warrior protect me, the sounds they made…" "They died, though. I must remember that, cling to that. Whatever they might have been, they were creatures of heat and fire, and they did not love the ice, oh no. One after another they thrashed and writhed and died before my eyes, thank the Seven. I will not presume to give them names…they were horrors." - Fire & Blood: Jaehaerys and Alysanne—Their Triumphs and Tragedies

House Targaryen and their dragons played no role in the previous Long Night.

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Long Night

The Targaryens were of pure Valyrian blood, dragonlords of ancient lineage. Twelve years before the Doom of Valyria (114 BC), Aenar Targaryen sold his holdings in the Freehold and the Lands of the Long Summer and moved with all his wives, wealth, slaves, dragons, siblings, kin, and children to Dragonstone, a bleak island citadel beneath a smoking mountain in the narrow sea. - The World of Ice and Fire—The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Bran's curtain of light is simply a reference to the aurora borealis. For the love of christ, it's not a portal to another dimension.

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. - Bran III, AGOT

Sailors, by nature a gullible and superstitious lot, as fond of their fancies as singers, tell many tales of these frigid northern waters. They speak of queer lights shimmering in the sky, where the demon mother of the ice giants dances eternally through the night, seeking to lure men northward to their doom. - The World of Ice and Fire—Beyond the Free Cities: The Shivering Sea

Speaking of Bran, why isn't he central to this theory? Didn't that sentence appear in his chapter? What is Arya up to? Where is Sansa? Why are the Starks, who are the central characters of this series, taking a backseat in their own conflict, which is unfolding in their own backyard?

(Not to mention the Night's Watch, the wildlings, the northerners, and the children of the forest—you know, the people who are actually integral to this storyline.)

Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that. - George R. R. Martin

Whenever I propose analogies like that, fans jump in with their own ideas, but it depends on what team you root for. To me, the Starks are heroes, so they would be the Giants. - George R. R. Martin

It's going to be a pact facilitated by Bran.

Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Long Night

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. - The World of Ice and Fire—Ancient History: The Long Night

Tyrion Lannister is not a Targaryen; he is not one of the three heads of the dragon. He is the malevolent, vindictive son of Tywin Lannister. He rapes women, he kills women, he marries child hostages to acquire their castles, he will be complicit in the death of potentially hundreds of thousands of people, and he isn't getting anything remotely resembling a heroic ending.

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son." "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth." That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?" "Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." - Jaime V, AFFC

Daenerys and her dragons represent one of the two principal threats in the narrative. Azor Ahai is a misinterpreted prophecy that is intended as a warning, not as the foretelling of a hero.

Since the first book, her sole objective has been to rule foreign lands seized through force. She exploits slaves, consistently engages in brutal acts of violence, and leaves devastation wherever she sets foot. She will intentionally burn King's Landing to the ground, and then she'll be stabbed to death.

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass. - Daenerys X, ADWD

The idea that Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion will love themselves or each other, either physically or emotionally, and then collectively sacrifice themselves, is the dumbest climax anyone has ever conceived. You forfeit the right to ever complain about the show if this is what you thought should happen.

Finally, please remember that, by default, the original creators of this theory are always wrong about everything.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

You might be asking yourselves, "How do we distinguish between joke and fanfiction theories?"

I'll tell you. Both are equally absurd, but the fanfiction tier has the unique quality of making you feel like you're reading a story written by a fanfic writer who's in denial about their aspirations to write fanfic.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.*

*won't be necessary for this theory.

NEXT THEORY:

Varys has Tyrek Lannister

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 5 #curtain of light

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istumpysk · 7 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Tormund Giantsbane x Maege Mormont

TIER:

People's Choice! Great job on Lemongate, I feel more at ease putting my faith in you again.

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

vs.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Gather 'round, children. This is a fun one.

The theory:

The Tormund Giantsbane x Maege Mormont theory suggests that they may have had one or several intimate encounters, and Tormund could potentially be the father of one or more of Maege Mormont's daughters.

The proof:

In A Storm of Swords, the character Tormund Giantsbane is introduced, and we learn his various titles, one of which is "Husband to Bears."

Mance Rayder laughed. "As you wish. Jon Snow, before you stands Tormund Giantsbane, Tall-talker, Horn-blower, and Breaker of Ice. And here also Tormund Thunderfist, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts." - Jon I, ASOS

The sigil of House Mormont is a black bear. Members of the Mormont family, who hail from Bear Island, are frequently referred to as bears within the story.

The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. - Eddard II, AGOT

The maester had taught him all the banners: the mailed fist of the Glovers, silver on scarlet; Lady Mormont's black bear; the hideous flayed man that went before Roose Bolton of the Dreadfort; a bull moose for the Hornwoods; a battle-axe for the Cerwyns; three sentinel trees for the Tallharts; and the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains. - Bran VI, AGOT

"I am touched by your concern, Lord Mormont." The strong drink was making Tyrion light-headed, but not so drunk that he did not realize that the Old Bear wanted something from him. - Tyrion III, AGOT

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. - Catelyn V, ASOS

"He wants you," said the She-Bear, after his third visit. Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Ser Jorah had been with her then, her gruff old bear. - Daenerys X, ADWD

Maege Mormont, the head of House Mormont, has five daughters: Dacey (now deceased), Alysane, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna.

No one knows the father of Maege's children or if she married. Yet, all her daughters bear (ha!) the Mormont surname, and none appear to be considered bastards.

The tale that's commonly told is that Lady Maege took a bear as her lover, and this bear is the father of her children.

Maege Mormont is called Mormont because no one knows her husband's name, or even if she has one. - So Spake Martin

"Aye, Dywen says. And the last time he went ranging, he says he saw a bear fifteen feet tall." Mormont snorted. "My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover. I'd believe that before I'd believe one fifteen feet tall. Though in a world where dead come walking . . . ah, even so, a man must believe his eyes. I have seen the dead walk. I've not seen any giant bears." - Jon I, ACOK

"Whoever the king names will not have an easy time stepping into your armor, I can tell. Lord Mormont faces the same problem." Lord Janos looked puzzled. "I thought she was a lady. Mormont. Beds down with bears, that's the one?" - Tyrion II, ACOK

"No. My children were fathered by a bear." Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. "Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." - The King's Prize, ADWD

Tormund is no bear, but you might say he's built like one.

Beside the brazier, a short but immensely broad man sat on a stool, eating a hen off a skewer. Hot grease was running down his chin and into his snow-white beard, but he smiled happily all the same. Thick gold bands graven with runes bound his massive arms, and he wore a heavy shirt of black ringmail that could only have come from a dead ranger. - Jon I, ASOS

But as the distance between them diminished Jon saw that the horseman was short and broad, with gold rings glinting on thick arms and a white beard spreading out across his massive chest. - Jon X, ASOS

He was not a tall man, Tormund Giantsbane, but the gods had given him a broad chest and massive belly. - Jon XI, ADWD

In the culture of the free folk, men often "steal" women for marriage, demonstrating their strength.

We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." - Jon III, ASOS

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." - Jon III, ASOS

"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall." - Jon V, ASOS

Bear Island is a secluded island in the north, situated in the Bay of Ice. Due to frequent raids by the free folk and the ironborn, Mormont women have become fierce warriors to prevent being carried off.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. "We have needed to be. In olden days the ironmen would come raiding in their longboats, or wildlings from the Frozen Shore. The men would be off fishing, like as not. The wives they left behind had to defend themselves and their children, or else be carried off." - Catelyn V, ASOS

(map!)

Now, for the crucial evidence.

In A Storm of Swords, Jon asks Tormund about his titles. Out of all Tormund's designations, the author chooses to delve into the backstory of "Husband of Bears."

We'll dissect this story step by step. However, please remember that Tormund is known for exaggerations and fabrications. Distinguishing fact from fiction and extracting the elements of truth can be tricky.

"Are all crows so curious?" asked Tormund. "Well, here's a tale for you. It were another winter, colder even than the one I spent inside that giant, and snowing day and night, snowflakes as big as your head, not these little things. It snowed so hard the whole village was half buried. I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it. The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by, a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw. She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth. "The more I drank the more I thought about her, and the more I thought the harder me member got, till I couldn't suffer it no more. Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was. "The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her. It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep. Next morning when I woke the snow had stopped and the sun was shining, but I was in no fit state to enjoy it. All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt. And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods, with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Har!" He slapped a meaty thigh. "Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear. Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither." - Jon II, ASOS

I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it.

Tormund is first introduced as Mead-king of Ruddy Hall. Ruddy Hall is beyond the Wall, but we don't know where.

The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by

Regardless of where Ruddy Hall is located beyond the Wall, it wouldn't be near Maege Mormont.

a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw.

Maege Mormont is short and stout, and likely has large breasts like her daughter Alysane.

The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. - Catelyn V, ASOS

She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth.

Maege Mormont has a temper,

The Old Bear sighed. "You are not the only one touched by this war. Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. Maege is a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful. Truth be told, I can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman, but that does not mean my love for her is any less than the love you bear your half sisters." - Jon IX, AGOT

but she can also be warm.

Lady Mormont took her hand and said, "My lady, if Cersei Lannister held two of my daughters, I would have done the same." - Catelyn II, ASOS

Catelyn had grown fond of Lady Maege and her eldest daughter, Dacey; they were more understanding than most in the matter of Jaime Lannister, she had found. - Catelyn V, ASOS

Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was.

If he started at Ruddy Hall, Tormund would have needed a boat to reach Maege Mormont. He couldn't have walked.

Edit: D'oh. Thank you to @transdimensional-void and @grennseyelashes for pointing out the Bay of Ice could freeze over.

The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her.

Maege Mormont is a fierce warrior.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. "We have needed to be. [...]" - Catelyn V, ASOS

The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. By Catelyn's lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been. - Catelyn V, ASOS

It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep.

Again, he couldn't have taken her home without a boat.

Edit: D'oh. Thank you to @transdimensional-void and @grennseyelashes for pointing out the Bay of Ice could freeze over.

All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt.

She-bear has only ever been used to describe women associated with House Mormont.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. - Catelyn V, ASOS

Ser Jorah sat up in his hammock. "Befriend her, then. Marry her, for all I care." That left a bad taste in his mouth as well. "Like with like, is that your notion? Do you mean to find a she-bear for yourself, ser?" - Tyrion VIII, ASOS

Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. - Jon VII, ADWD

And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods

This is a bit goofy, but a She-Bear leaving behind her pelt and wandering around bald is somewhat reminiscent of Alysane Mormont's tale about Mormont women being skinchangers.

"Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." - The King's Prize, ADWD

with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear.

Tormund seems to be suggesting that this was a one-time affair, yet he also mentions that it resulted in a pair of children. Tricky.

Lady Mormont has five children with significant age gaps. If he's their father, it would require multiple visits over several decades. If 'cub' shouldn't be plural and he's only the father of one daughter, then which one might it be?

Probably not Dacey Mormont. She was six-foot-tall, pretty, lanky, willowy, and graceful — nothing like Tormund.

The most probable candidate is Alysane Mormont. She shares a build with Tormund (and Maege), is now the heir to Bear Island, and is the most prominently featured Mormont daughter in the story.

Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither.

Sons, plural. After potentially just one encounter. That's a problem.

He might simply be referring to two of his four sons: Toregg, Torwynd, Dryn, and Dormund. Their mother's identity remains unknown.

However, while Maege Mormont has no sons, she does have five daughters with impressively strong characters who comfortably take on traditionally masculine roles.

Stout, grey-haired Maege Mormont, dressed in mail like a man, told Robb bluntly that he was young enough to be her grandson, and had no business giving her commands … but as it happened, she had a granddaughter she would be willing to have him marry. - Bran VI, AGOT

Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. - Jon IX, AGOT

One of his companions was even a woman: Dacey Mormont, Lady Maege's eldest daughter and heir to Bear Island, a lanky six-footer who had been given a morningstar at an age when most girls were given dolls. Some of the other lords muttered about that, but Catelyn would not listen to their complaints. - Catelyn X, AGOT

"I have fought beside the Young Wolf in every battle," Dacey Mormont said cheerfully. "He has not lost one yet." - Catelyn V, ASOS

Smalljon Umber and Robin Flint sat near Robb, to the other side of Fair Walda and Alyx, respectively. Neither of them was drinking; along with Patrek Mallister and Dacey Mormont, they were her son's guards this evening. - Catelyn VII, ASOS

Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. Even in sleep she wore ringmail under her furs, boiled leather under that, and an old sheepskin under the leather, turned inside out for warmth. All those layers made her look almost as wide as she was tall. And ferocious. Sometimes it was hard for Asha Greyjoy to remember that she and the She-Bear were almost of an age. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king." - Jon I, ADWD

But again, there are age gaps between all of them, and this would necessitate multiple trips to Bear Island.

Other things to consider:

It's possible that Tormund's She-Bear is actually Alysane Mormont, who has a son and a daughter and also asserts that their father is a bear. However, considering Alysane's age (mid-twenties), it seems more plausible that the She-Bear is Maege.

Some people believe the title "Breaker of Ice" might allude to the Bay of Ice, but that's a stretch.

Tormund has five other children, and he seems to be actively involved in their lives.

Alysane Mormont is currently headed to Castle Black, so there might be more clues ahead.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Maege Mormont being carried off by Tormund, only to rise in the middle of the night and take herself back home, is one of the more amusing tales I can think of. I mean, if you ignore the rape part.

Truly, I don't even know what tier to put this in. There are so many issues with that story, but given Tormund's nature, it's hard to discern what's real from what's not.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Theon's bastard

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#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 14 #tormund giantsbane x maege mormont

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istumpysk · 7 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Lemongate

TIER:

People's Choice! I swear to god, if you guys screw this up...

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

vs.

Long Shot: These theories are largely speculative, based more on wishful thinking or obscure hints than on solid evidence.

vs.

Debunked: These theories have been directly contradicted by the text, George R. R. Martin, or other authoritative sources.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

What is Lemongate?

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. - Daenerys I, AGOT

The theory argues that lemons can't grow in Braavos, therefore something about Daenerys' childhood has yet to be revealed.

What could it be?

It depends on who you ask. The problem with this theory is that it serves as the foundation for many other theories, making it extremely difficult to cover.

The possibility that Daenerys never actually lived in Braavos has led to various speculations, including but not limited to the following:

The big house with the red door was in Dorne.

Daenerys Targaryen isn't really Daenerys Targaryen, and has false memories of her childhood with Viserys Targaryen.

Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Daenerys is the daughter of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne.

And that's just scratching the surface.

For the sake of my sanity, we won't delve into all that nonsense. Instead, we'll focus solely on the question of whether lemons can grow in Braavos and, if not, what the hell is going on.

Okay, do lemons grow in Braavos?

Maybe? Daenerys seems to think so.

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. - Daenerys I, AGOT

But there's some issues.

For starters, trees don't really grow in Braavos.

Beyond the harbor she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses, built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes they were queer-looking, four and five stories tall and very skinny, with sharp-peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea. - Arya I, AFFC

The stony maze of islands and canals that was Braavos, devoid of grass and trees and teeming with strangers who spoke to her in words she could not understand, frightened her so badly that she lost the map and soon herself. - Samwell III, AFFC

Braavos is built on a lagoon at the northwestern end of Essos.

(map!)

It is often described as foggy, with a damp, cool, maritime climate. It draws significant inspiration from the city of Venice, Italy.

The day looked to be a rare one, crisp and clear and bright. Braavos only had three kinds of weather; fog was bad, rain was worse, and freezing rain was worst. But every so often would come a morning when the dawn broke pink and blue and the air was sharp and salty. Those were the days that Cat loved best. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

"Winter is nigh upon us. The day I left Braavos, there was ice on the canals." - Jon IX, ADWD

It's not an ideal climate for growing lemons, as the text humorously notes.

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?" "Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?" - Mercy, TWOW

It's nothing like Dorne, a more suitable place for a lemon tree.

Anguy shuffled his feet. "We were thinking we might eat it, Sharna. With lemons. If you had some." "Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too." - Arya II, ASOS

There children frolicked naked in the sun, music played in tiled courtyards, and the air was sharp with the smell of lemons and blood oranges. - The Captain of the Guards, AFFC

And to the author's credit, he appears to fully understand the conditions under which lemon trees can and cannot thrive.

Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more. - Alayne I, TWOW

So you can see why it's a bit puzzling.

Has anyone ever thought to simply ask George about it?

Of course. If you had the opportunity to ask George R. R. Martin anything, why wouldn't you waste your moment on something as stupid as this?

George was asked about the discrepancy, and surprisingly, he was uncharacteristically forthcoming. He acknowledged that it's very perceptive to pick up on a detail like that and playfully hinted that it points to something else.

Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepency significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past? Thank you so much. Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to . . . well, that would be telling. - George R. R. Martin

In that case, is Lemongate confirmed to be real?

No, not exactly.

Despite what he said, there's really no hints in the text concerning any secrecy around Daenerys' upbringing.

Ser Willem Darry was in Braavos, a fact that could be confirmed by several people.

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. - Daenerys VII, ADWD

And while trees are rare in Braavos, they do grow in the gardens of the wealthy, where you'd expect Daenerys to be. It's not out of the question that a lemon tree could grow there. Lemon trees can also grow in Venice, Italy.

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty. - Samwell III, AFFC

Compare one questionable lemon tree to how the author handles Jon Snow's parentage, and you can see why the theory has some issues.

Then what the hell is going on?

I believe one of three possibilities exists.

POSSIBILITY #1

Daenerys lived in a nice big house in Braavos with Ser Willem Darry, and there was a lemon tree outside her window. Nothing weird is happening.

POSSIBILITY #2

We have another instance of an unreliable narrator, who is rewriting a past event that never existed.

Daenerys is chasing a red door and a lemon tree that were never truly there, and she'll never reach her destination. It's a commentary on the futility of her entire objective.

POSSIBILITY #3*

(*also known as the real reason)

At the last minute, George changed the location of the big house with the red door from Tyrosh to Braavos, resulting in a humorous inconsistency in the story.

Yes, it's really that simple.

Blood of the Dragon was a novella published in the July 1996 issue of Asimov's Science Fiction magazine. It is based on the Daenerys chapters from A Game of Thrones and was released before the book itself.

Here's an excerpt:

That was when they had lived in Tyrosh, in the big house with the red door. Dany had slept in her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. They had wandered since then, from Tyrosh to Myr, from Myr to Braavos, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place.

Whoops! Something's different.

The big house with the red door originally being in Tyrosh isn't surprising, given that ✨ we know ✨ Daenerys speaks with a Tyroshi accent.

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?" "My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him. - Daenerys VI, AGOT

You'd have to spend many of your formative younger years in Tyrosh for that to be the case.

As Irri and Jhiqui helped her from her litter, she sniffed, and recognized the sharp odors of garlic and pepper, scents that reminded Dany of days long gone in the alleys of Tyrosh and Myr and brought a fond smile to her face. - Daenerys VI, AGOT

Amusingly, this now-deleted part of her history was somewhat alluded to when her mirrored image twin from Tyrosh was introduced to the story.

The Tyroshi sellsword was not a good man, no one needed to tell her that. - Daenerys V, ASOS

"Is it Daario? What's happened?" In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. - Daenerys II, ADWD

Many inconsistencies and discrepancies are present throughout the series, but they are especially noticeable in A Game of Thrones.

Lemons grow in Tyrosh, but they don't typically grow in Braavos. It's a detail the author overlooked when making the simple change, and I guarantee you this is him poking fun at himself (and the Lemongaters) for the error:

So, we can probably put it to rest.

But George himself said it was pointing to something??

Aww, adorable.

If you've been paying attention to George R. R. Martin for any amount of time, you should realize that if there were something truly significant about lemon trees not growing in Braavos as part of a secret plot yet to be revealed, there's no way in hell he would ever answer that question in that manner on LiveJournal.

Allow me to finish his sentence for him,

Fine, but why did he switch it from Tyrosh to Braavos?

I don't know why, but you should stop overthinking this, and we should move on.

(because of arya.)

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I'd like to think Lemongate has been debunked, but I'll leave it to the people to render their verdict.

Does Lemongate amount to nothing? Absolutely. Do lemons grow in Braavos? Not really. Is the house with the red door a symbol of an idealized past she'll never be able to replicate in her future? I don't doubt it.

Many things can be true here, but one thing that's not is that she lived in Dorne, and Lyanna Stark is her mother.

VOTE:

NEXT THEORY:

Oberyn poisoned Tywin

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#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 11 #lemongate

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istumpysk · 8 months

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OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Tysha is the Sailor's Wife

TIER:

Strong Contender: These theories have a lot of textual support, but there are still some elements of uncertainty.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

First, who is Tysha?

Tysha was a crofter's daughter from the westerlands.

According to Tyrion, she had blue eyes, dark hair, and she was slender and beautiful.

They met when Tyrion and his brother Jaime rescued Tysha from outlaws; Jaime chased the men away while Tyrion cared for Tysha.

They quickly fell in love, married, and lived in a little cottage by the sunset sea, where they constantly made love to each other for a fortnight.

When Tywin discovered the marriage, he had Jaime deceive Tyrion by telling him that Tysha was a sex worker hired to make him a man.

Tywin then had his guards gang-rape Tysha, each giving her a silver coin afterwards.

Tywin then forced Tyrion to rape her last, and give her a gold coin, signifying that Lannisters are worth more.

The marriage was undone, and Tysha was never seen again.

Eventually, Tyrion learned that Jaime lied to him about Tysha, and he now spends every moment of the story wondering where she went.

Second, who is the Sailor's Wife?

The Sailor's Wife is a sex worker who works at the Happy Port brothel in Braavos.

Her real name is unknown.

We have no description of what she looks like.

What we know about her backstory will be covered below.

So, could they be the same person? Let's find out!

Born in 273 AC, Tyrion married Tysha when he was 13 years old (in or around the year 286 AC). If they had a child, that child would now be 14 years old.

The Sailor's Wife has a 14-year-old daughter named Lanna, who also works at the Happy Port.

Lanna was always begging the singer to play her stupid love songs. She was the youngest of the whores, only ten-and-four. Merry asked three times as much for her as for any of the other girls, Cat knew. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

Did you catch that name? Lanna. The Sailor's Wife named her child Lanna.

In the same book that introduces the Sailor's Wife and Lanna, a pregnant woman asks Cersei for permission to name her child Lanna to honor House Lannister.

Lady Graceford, who was large with child, asked the queen's leave to name it Tywin if it were a boy, or Lanna if it were a girl. - Cersei II, AFFC

And guess what? Lanna has long golden hair. Not blonde hair, no, golden hair.

Yna was there too, braiding Lanna's fine long golden hair. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

The Sailor's Wife lost her husband when she was 14.

Tysha was 14 when she met, married, and was separated from Tyrion.

The other whores said that the Sailor's Wife visited the Isle of the Gods on the days when her flower was in bloom, and knew all the gods who lived there, even the ones that Braavos had forgotten. They said she went to pray for her first husband, her true husband, who had been lost at sea when she was a girl no older than Lanna. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear. - Tyrion VI, AGOT

"[...] My brother unsheathed his sword and went after them, while I dismounted to protect the girl. She was scarcely a year older than I was [...]." - Tyrion VI, AGOT

Arya finds there's something sad about the Sailor's Wife.

Tysha had a face that would break your heart.

She was good that way, and quick to laugh as well, but Cat thought there was something sad about her too. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

She was scarcely a year older than I was, dark-haired, slender, with a face that would break your heart. - Tyrion VI, AGOT

The Sailor's Wife can speak the Common Tongue of Westeros.

Tysha was an orphaned daughter of a crofter from the westerlands of Westeros.

"He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

She was a crofter's child, orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to … well, nowhere, really. - Tyrion VI, AGOT

The Sailor's Wife and Lanna both seem to have a fondness for singers and love songs.

Tyrion often recalls Tysha singing "Seasons of Love" to him with affection.

When Cat slipped inside the brothel, though, she found Merry sitting in the common room with her eyes shut, listening to Dareon play his woodharp. Yna was there too, braiding Lanna's fine long golden hair. Another stupid love song. Lanna was always begging the singer to play her stupid love songs. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

Cat was thinking about the fat boy, remembering how she had saved him from Terro and Orbelo, when the Sailor's Wife appeared beside her. "He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well." - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

It was pleasant to think that men still sang, even in the midst of butchery and famine. Remembered notes filled his head, and for a moment he could almost hear Tysha as she'd sung to him half a lifetime ago. - Tyrion VII, ACOK

The Sailor's Wife only beds men who marry her; the rites are typically performed by a wine-soaked red priest or a septon at the Sept-Beyond-the-Sea.

Tyrion and Tysha were married by a drunken septon.

The Happy Port sometimes had three or four weddings a night. Often the cheerful wine-soaked red priest Ezzelyno performed the rites. Elsewise it was Eustace, who had once been a septon at the Sept-Beyond-the-Sea. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

"A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter's daughter," Bronn said. "How did you manage that?" Oh, you'd be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. - Tyrion VI, AGOT

Tyrion obsessively asks himself, "Where do whores go?" whenever thinking about his father or Tysha. He seems convinced she is in a brothel somewhere.

At one point, he wonders if she's at a port; another time, he mentions the term "courtesan," a word strongly associated with Braavos.

And the whores were out. River or sea, a port was a port, and wherever you found sailors, you'd find whores. Is that what my father meant? Is that where whores go, to the sea? - Tyrion VI, ADWD

"Do you know where whores go?" When they did not respond, he repeated the question in High Valyrian, though he had to say courtesan in place of whore. - Tyrion I, ADWD

"Have you ever visited the pleasure houses of Lys?" the dwarf inquired. "Might that be where whores go?" - Tyrion I, ADWD

Selhorys may be where whores go. Tysha might be in there even now, with tears tattooed upon her cheek. "I almost drowned. A man needs a woman after that. [...]" - Tyrion VI, ADWD

"Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?" he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. "Do you know where whores go?" - Tyrion VI, ADWD

The Sailor's Wife claims that her first husband was lost at sea when she was 14, and often prays for him to return to her.

The author repeatedly writes scenarios in which Tyrion almost drowns.

Was that why he reeled backward, or did he see the sword after all? He would never know. The point slashed just beneath his eyes, and he felt its cold hard touch and then a blaze of pain. His head spun around as if he'd been slapped. The shock of the cold water was a second slap more jolting than the first. He flailed for something to grab on to, knowing that once he went down he was not like to come back up. Somehow his hand found the splintered end of a broken oar. Clutching it tight as a desperate lover, he shinnied up foot by foot. His eyes were full of water, his mouth was full of blood, and his head throbbed horribly. Gods give me strength to reach the deck . . . There was nothing else, only the oar, the water, the deck. – Tyrion XIV, ACOK

The sudden cold hit Tyrion like a hammer. As he sank he felt a stone hand fumbling at his face. Another closed around his arm, dragging him down into darkness. Blind, his nose full of river, choking, sinking, he kicked and twisted and fought to pry the clutching fingers off his arm, but the stone fingers were unyielding. Air bubbled from his lips. The world was black and growing blacker. He could not breathe. There are worse ways to die than drowning. – Tyrion V, ADWD

He looked about for his wine cup, but when he found it all the rum had spilled. Drowning is bad enough, he reflected sourly, but drowning sad and sober, that's too cruel. In the end, they did not drown … though there were times when the prospect of a nice, peaceful drowning had a certain appeal. The storm raged for the rest of that day and well into the night. – Tyrion IX, ADWD

Furthermore, the theme of drowning is heavily present in much of Tyrion's arc, to the point where it's becoming kind of weird.

(There's always potential for karma when someone has a man thrown off a ship en route to the Wall or uses wildfire to bury an army at the bottom of Blackwater Bay.)

Once Janos Slynt realized he was not to be summarily executed, color returned to his face. He thrust his jaw out. "We will see about this, Imp. Dwarf. Perhaps it will be you on that ship, what do you think of that? Perhaps it will be you on the Wall." He gave a bark of anxious laughter. "You and your threats, well, we will see. I am the king's friend, you know. We shall hear what Joffrey has to say about this. And Littlefinger and the queen, oh, yes. Janos Slynt has a good many friends. We will see who goes sailing, I promise you. Indeed we will." - Tyrion II, ACOK

He retched the wine up and lay in it a while, wondering if the ship would sink. Is this your vengeance, Father? Has the Father Above made you his Hand? "Such are the wages of the kinslayer," he said as the wind howled outside. It did not seem fair to drown the cabin boy and the captain and all the rest for something he had done, but when had the gods ever been fair? And around about then, the darkness gulped him down. - Tyrion I, ADWD

Ser Rolly grabbed Tyrion by the collar. "Let us see how dwarfs swim," he said, chucking him headlong into the Rhoyne. The dwarf laughed last; he could paddle passably well, and did … until his legs began to cramp. Young Griff extended him a pole. "You are not the first to try and drown me," he told Duck, as he was pouring river water from his boot. "My father threw me down a well the day I was born, but I was so ugly that the water witch who lived down there spat me back." He pulled off the other boot, then did a cartwheel along the deck, spraying all of them. - Tyrion IV, ADWD

And the sight of me can only be salt in her [Penny] wound. They hacked off her brother's head in the hope that it was mine, yet here I sit like some bloody gargoyle, offering empty consolations. If I were her, I'd want nothing more than to shove me into the sea. - Tyrion VIII, ADWD

Tyrion found himself musing on how easy it would be to slip over the gunwale and drop down into that darkness. One very small splash, and the pathetic little tale that was his life would soon be done. - Tyrion VIII, ADWD

Yna, another sex worker at the Happy Port and a maegi, tasted the Sailor's Wife's blood. She claims her lover is dead and hopes he never returns, as he would be a corpse. That's a really strange thing to say, no? You always have to read between the lines with a maegi.

If you asked Tyrion, he would tell you he's been dead for a long time.

"She thinks that if she finds the right god, maybe he will send the winds and blow her old love back to her," said one-eyed Yna, who had known her longest, "but I pray it never happens. Her love is dead, I could taste that in her blood. If he ever should come back to her, it will be a corpse." - Cat of the Canalds, ADWD

There are worse ways to die than drowning. And if truth be told, he had perished long ago, back in King's Landing. It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a crossbow bolt through the great Lord Tywin's bowels. No man would mourn the thing that he'd become. I'll haunt the Seven Kingdoms, he thought, sinking deeper. They would not love me living, so let them dread me dead. - Tyrion V, ADWD

Other things to consider:

Neither Samwell nor Arya provide a physical description of the Sailor's Wife, which many, especially myself, find highly suspicious. It's remarkably uncharacteristic of George R. R. Martin, given how much attention he devotes to this character.

On that note, why is it that among all the sex workers we encounter in the series, we learn so much about this particular one? (But again, not what she actually looks like.)

I feel super gross typing this, but one could argue that there's a twisted rationale to Tysha wanting to marry her customers after the sexual assault she experienced.

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

Let's start with the obvious: Tyrion's not a sailor, and Tysha didn't lose him because he was lost at sea. (I'd argue it's fairly clear why she wouldn't share the real story.)

The whole point was that Tywin and Jaime lied, and Tysha wasn't actually a prostitute. Making both her and her daughter sex workers after what she experienced would be unnecessary, distasteful, and kind of offensive. (That said, I wouldn't put it past George to do it.)

What are the odds that Arya Stark runs into the Tysha in Braavos? (Roughly the same as Jorah Mormont and Tyrion Lannister bumping into each other at the other end of the world.)

After what happened to her, would Tysha really pray for Tyrion to return to her? Would she name her child Lanna? (Don't look at me, I don't know.)

The Gerion Lannister Consideration:

Gerion Lannister was Tywin Lannister's youngest and most reckless brother. It appears he was a sailor, given that he had a ship called the Laughing Lion and enjoyed the occasional adventure.

Circa 291 AC, Gerion went on a quest to find House Lannister's ancestral Valyrian steel greatsword, Brightroar, along with any other treasure that might have survived the Doom of Valyria.

Gerion was never seen again.

Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. - Tyrion VIII, ADWD

It's not unreasonable to speculate that it's actually Gerion Lannister who married the Sailor's Wife, and fathered Lanna.

But there are some issues.

For starters, the Sailor's Wife lost her husband at sea when she was 14 years old (in or around 286 AC). Gerion disappeared in 291 AC.

Gerion was in Westeros for Robert's Rebellion (282-283 AC), and Robert's marriage to Cersei Lannister (284 AC).

"[...] If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords. - Tyrion IV, ASOS

In 288 AC, Gerion had a daughter named Joy Hill, with a commoner from the westerlands named Briony.

"Joy is my late uncle Gerion's natural daughter. A betrothal can be arranged, if that is your wish, but any marriage will need to wait. Joy was nine or ten when last I saw her." - Jaime VII, ASOS

Remember, Lanna was born in or around 286 AC.

What are the odds that between Robert and Cersei's marriage and the conception of Joy Hill, 31-year-old Gerion Lannister sailed to Braavos—assuming that's where he met the Sailor's Wife—legitimately married a 14-year-old who wasn't yet a sex worker, conceived Lanna with her, left her there for reasons unknown, traveled home, never returned, and never mentioned any of this to anyone?

Let's say they met in the westerlands. Why didn't he acknowledge his wife and legitimate child like he did his illegitimate daughter Joy Hill? Why is the Sailor's Wife hiding the fact that Gerion Lannister was her husband?

Why aren't we getting the Sailor's Wife's name and description? Such information wouldn't need to be safeguarded, would it?

Why the emphasis on the specific ages of Lanna and how old the Sailor's Wife was when she lost her husband? None of this matters if Gerion is the husband. Lanna could be any age, the Sailor's Wife could be older than 14 when she met 31-year-old Gerion, and their encounter could be placed at a more logical time in history.

Why am I being told so much about the Sailor's Wife? The marriages to her customers, the drunken priest, the singing, the sadness, Yna's fear of his corpsy return—none of this is relevant to Gerion Lannister.

Most importantly, what is the point of all this? Calling Gerion Lannister a minor character in the series would be generous. He's merely a footnote in history. This is too much.

I think what's happening here is that George wants to trick you into believing her husband was Gerion, when it's actually Tyrion.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Please don't overlook that Lanna is older than Sansa.

This one theory is better than all the secret Howland Reed theories combined. For the record, if it is Tysha, I don't think anything will come of this. I would be stunned if Tyrion ever came face-to-face with Tysha again.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Olyvar Frey is Rosby's ward

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#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 7 #tysha is the sailor's wife

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istumpysk · 8 months

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OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Asha's pregnant

TIER:

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

[Tier list overview.]

EVIDENCE:

The first time we meet Asha (Esgred), she makes an unusual remark.

"Poor lordling." She released him and stepped back. "As it happens, I'm a woman wed, and new with child." - Theon II, ACOK

Asha shows off her axe and dagger.

Theon had time for a choked gasp before Asha snatched the axe from the air and slammed it down into the table, splitting his trencher in two and splattering his mantle with drippings. "There's my lord husband." His sister reached down inside her gown and drew a dirk from between her breasts. "And here's my sweet suckling babe." - Theon II, ACOK

Later in the story, Asha (symbolically?) loses her axe and dagger during a moment of passion.

"I'd sooner fuck you." One quick slash unlaced her jerkin. Asha reached for her axe, but Qarl dropped his knife and caught her wrist, twisting back her arm until the weapon fell from her fingers. - The Wayward Bride, ADWD

When she slipped back beneath the furs, Qarl was asleep. "Now your life is mine. Where did I put my dagger?" Asha pressed herself against his back and slid her arms about him. - The Wayward Bride, ADWD

Asha is quickly captured by Stannis, leaving her no opportunity to brew the moon tea.

Her breasts were sore, and Qarl's seed was trickling down her thigh. She would need to brew some moon tea or risk bringing another kraken into the world. What does it matter? My father's dead, my mother's dying, my brother's being flayed, and there's naught that I can do about any of it. And I'm married. Wedded and bedded … though not by the same man. - The Wayward Bride, ADWD

At a minimum, Asha has been with Stannis for 32 days (it's much longer than that), and there has been no mention of her menstrual cycle.

On the twenty-sixth day of the fifteen-day march, the last of the vegetables was consumed. On the thirty-second day, the last of the grain and fodder. Asha wondered how long a man could live on raw, half-frozen horse meat. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Out of the blue, the formidable fighter and mother, Alysane Mormont, cautions Asha about waiting too long to start a family.

"Aye." Alysane stared at Asha for a moment. "I have a son. He's only two. My daughter's nine." "You started young." "Too young. But better that than wait too late." A stab at me, Asha thought, but let it be. "You are wed." "No. My children were fathered by a bear." Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. "Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." Asha smiled back. "Mormont women are all fighters too." - The King's Prize, ADWD

The author prevents Asha from having more than a sip.

Ser Justin found them places on the bench and fetched supper for the both of them—ale and chunks of horsemeat, charred black outside and red within. Asha took a sip of ale and fell upon the horse flesh. […] Broken quick as that, thought Asha. My champion is made of suet. Even so, Ser Justin was one of the few who might object should the queen's men try to burn her. So she rose to her feet, donned her own cloak, and followed him out into the blizzard. - The Sacrifice, ADWD

[If there's any evidence I've overlooked, please bring it to my attention.]

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

This is like knowing someone is guilty, but having only circumstantial evidence.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective — I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner (or it's close), there will be a second poll to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Daario Naharis = Euron Greyjoy

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 2 #asha's pregnant

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istumpysk · 8 months

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OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

The Hound is the gravedigger.

TIER:

Near-Certainty: These theories lack official confirmation but are so heavily supported by the text and/or external hints that they're almost certainly true.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Welcome to the first theory that is so blatantly obvious, you forgot it still qualifies as just a theory.

Who is the Hound?

He's a piece of trash, who is idealized by men who lacked positive male role models and romanticized by women who need a therapist.

Who is the gravedigger?

He's a piece of trash, searching for salvation at the bottom of a hole.

But are they the same person? Let's find out!

The last time we saw Sandor Clegane, he was getting his ass kicked by Polliver and the Tickler, at the inn at the crossroads.

Polliver and the Tickler had driven the Hound into a corner behind a bench, and one of them had given him an ugly red gash on his upper thigh to go with his other wounds. Sandor was leaning against the wall, bleeding and breathing noisily. He looked as though he could barely stand, let alone fight. - Arya XIII, ASOS

To my disappointment, he prevailed at the last minute, but not before sustaining severe wounds to his thigh, neck, and ear.

When the time came to leave, he needed Arya's help to get back up on Stranger. He had tied a strip of cloth about his neck and another around his thigh, and taken the squire's cloak off its peg by the door. The cloak was green, with a green arrow on a white bend, but when the Hound wadded it up and pressed it to his ear it soon turned red. Arya was afraid he would collapse the moment they set out, but somehow he stayed in the saddle. - Arya XIII, ASOS

After the scrap, Sandor, Arya, and their horses, Stranger and Craven, decide to head to Saltpans.

"Where will we go?" she asked. "Saltpans." - Arya XIII, ASOS

(map!)

Fortunately, the Hound's condition was rapidly worsening.

She brought him water instead. He drank a little of it, complained that it tasted of mud, and slid into a noisy fevered sleep. When she touched him, his skin was burning up. Arya sniffed at his bandages the way Maester Luwin had done sometimes when treating her cut or scrape. His face had bled the worst, but it was the wound on his thigh that smelled funny to her. - Arya XIII, ASOS

Arya sees a chance to kill a weakened Hound but hesitates when he wakes up. He asks for a mercy killing and tries to provoke Arya by bringing up his attempted rape of Sansa and his brutal slaying of Mycah.

Arya decides this piece of trash is not worth the effort and leaves him to die on his own.

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy." [...] Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they'll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once. - Arya XIII, ASOS

Or so we thought.

Moving ahead to A Feast for Crows, we encounter Brienne of Tarth—a paragon of honor and integrity who serves as a direct contrast to Sandor Clegane—on her mission to find Sansa Stark.

Acting on a tip that the Hound and a Stark daughter are near Saltpans, Brienne and her companions make their way there, but not before making a brief stop at the Quiet Isle.

The septry stood upon an upthrust island half a mile from the shore, where the wide mouth of the Trident widened further still to kiss the Bay of Crabs. - Brienne VI, AFFC

What is the Quiet Isle?

The Quiet Isle is a secluded septry where individuals seeking atonement live to make amends for their sins through contemplation, prayer, and a vow of silence.

"Why do they call it the Quiet Isle?" asked Podrick. "Those who dwell here are penitents, who seek to atone for their sins through contemplation, prayer, and silence. Only the Elder Brother and his proctors are permitted to speak, and the proctors only for one day of every seven." - Brienne VI, AFFC

Upon arrival, it's not long before the author starts dropping some hints.

"[...] Let us enjoy a good hot meal before we face that. The brothers always have a bone to spare for Dog." Dog barked and wagged his tail. - Brienne VI, AFFC

We learn that some of the brothers cover their faces, leaving only their eyes exposed. (Convenient!)

Three men were waiting for them as they clambered up the broken stones that ringed the isle's shoreline. They were clad in the brown-and-dun robes of brothers, with wide bell sleeves and pointed cowls. Two had wound lengths of wool about the lower halves of their faces as well, so all that could be seen of them were their eyes. - Brienne VI, AFFC

One of the brothers appears noticeably uneasy upon hearing Brienne's objective.

"Lady Brienne is a warrior maid," confided Septon Meribald, "hunting for the Hound." "Aye?" Narbert seemed taken aback. "To what end?" - Brienne VI, AFFC

We meet a horse named Driftwood, who is strongly reminiscent of the Hound's black stallion, Stranger.

Way down at the far end, well away from the other animals, a huge black stallion trumpeted at the sound of their voices and kicked at the door of his stall. [...] Brother Narbert sighed. "The Seven send us blessings, and the Seven send us trials. Handsome he may be, but Driftwood was surely whelped in hell. When we sought to harness him to a plow he kicked Brother Rawney and broke his shinbone in two places. We had hoped gelding might improve the beast's ill temper, but . . . - Brienne VI, AFFC

The horse was a heavy courser, almost as big as a destrier but much faster. Stranger, the Hound called him. Arya had tried to steal him once, when Clegane was taking a piss against a tree, thinking she could ride off before he could catch her. Stranger had almost bitten her face off. He was gentle as an old gelding with his master, but otherwise he had a temper as black as he was. She had never known a horse so quick to bite or kick. - Arya IX, ASOS

At last, the moment arrives. The group come across a novice with a lame leg who is noticeably larger than Brienne.

Almost no one in this story is larger than Brienne.

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. - Brienne VI, AFFC

The novice gravedigger is immediately drawn to Septon Meribald's dog, Dog. Wink, wink.

"Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear. "A novice," explained Narbert. - Brienne VI, AFFC

The crowd moves along, and Brienne repeats her objective to the Elder Brother. Once again, the atmosphere turns uneasy.

Unlike Septon Narbert, the Elder Brother did not seem dismayed by Brienne's sex, but his smile did flicker and fade when the septon told him why she and Ser Hyle had come. "I see," was all he said [...] - Brienne VI, AFFC

The story progresses, but the author makes sure we don't forget that gravedigger we encountered earlier.

"Too many corpses, these days." The Elder Brother sighed. "Our gravedigger knows no rest. [...]" - Brienne VI, AFFC

Eventually the gravedigger reappears, and once more, the author emphasizes that this large adult man's leg is notably impaired.

By the time the readings were completed, the last of the food had been cleared away by the novices whose task it was to serve. Most were boys near Podrick's age, or younger, but there were grown men as well, amongst them the big gravedigger they had encountered on the hill, who walked with the awkward lurching gait of one half-crippled. - Brienne VI, AFFC

His face had bled the worst, but it was the wound on his thigh that smelled funny to her. - Arya XIII, ASOS

After a pleasant meal, the Elder Brother takes Brienne aside to learn more about her mission. He informs her that she has been pursuing the wrong Stark daughter; the Hound was with Arya, not Sansa.

Of course, this raises the question: how could he possibly know this?

I wonder, my lady . . . what do you hope to find there?" "A girl," she told him. "A highborn maid of three-and-ten, with a fair face and auburn hair." "Sansa Stark." The name was softly said. "You believe this poor child is with the Hound?" [...] "Your Dornishman did not lie," the Elder Brother began, "but I fear you did not understand him. You are chasing the wrong wolf, my lady. Eddard Stark had two daughters. It was the other one that Sandor Clegane made off with, the younger one." "Arya Stark?" Brienne stared open-mouthed, astonished. "You know this? Lady Sansa's sister is alive?" - Brienne VI, AFFC

The Elder Brother then tells Brienne that the Hound is dead and that he buried him himself.

"[...] I do not know where she is, or even if she lives. There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead." That was another shock. "How did he die?" "By the sword, as he had lived." "You know this for a certainty?" "I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place. That was a grievous error. Some other wayfarer found my marker and claimed it for himself. [...]" - Brienne VI, AFFC

But soon after, the Elder Brother speaks of his own "death," suggesting to the reader that Sandor Clegane's passing might be more symbolic than literal.

All in all, I was a sad man. When I was not fighting, I was drunk. My life was writ in red, in blood and wine." "When did it change?" asked Brienne. "When I died in the Battle of the Trident. [...]" - Brienne VI, AFFC

He then offers what appears to be a kind of eulogy, emphasizing that Sandor only lived to fulfill the dream of killing his brother, a goal he can no longer achieve.

This signals to the reader that Cleganebowl is stupid, and it's time to move on.

"I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey's sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother's blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for . . . and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear." - Brienne VI, AFFC

In a state of disbelief, Brienne states that Sandor Clegane is dead, and doesn't use his nickname. The Elder Brother corrects her by clarifying that Sandor Clegane is at rest.

This signals to the reader that both the Hound and Sandor Clegane are not coming back to the story, and it's time to move on.

"It is true, then," she said dully. "Sandor Clegane is dead." "He is at rest." The Elder Brother paused. - Brienne VI, AFFC

George R. R. Martin, I mean the Elder Brother, then emphatically tells his readers, I mean Brienne, that Sandor Clegane never had Sansa Stark (and he never will).

This signals to the reader that Sansan is not a thing, never was, and it's time to move on.

"I see." Brienne did not know why he was telling her all of this, or what else she ought to say.

"Do you?" He leaned forward, his big hands on his knees. "If so, give up this quest of yours. The Hound is dead, and in any case he never had your Sansa Stark. - Brienne VI, AFFC

The end.

Other things to consider:

In May of 2005, before the release of A Feast for Crows, George confirmed we'd be seeing the Hound in the upcoming book. Strange, considering the Hound is not in A Feast for Crows.

Except he is, because he's the gravedigger.

Will we see Sandor again, especially in replacing Sansa's lost wolf? Yes, we will see Sandor (in the next book I think he said) and Gregor. After that, he said he can't comment on the rest... - George R. R. Martin

In A Clash of Kings, Davos witnesses the Hound boarding the ship Prayer. (Funny author.)

Davos recognized the dog's-head helm of the Hound. A white cloak streamed from his shoulders as he rode his horse up the plank onto the deck of Prayer, hacking down anyone who blundered within reach. - Davos III, ACOK

Finally, the show confirmed the Hound's role as the gravedigger when they reintroduced the character by having him build a sept in aid of Septon Ray, who had helped nurse him back to health.

Later, as they desperately searched for something for him to do, because he wasn't meant to return to the story, they had him dig a grave. (In winter. In the frozen ground. Using a small, handheld spade.)

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

There is none, because the Hound is the gravedigger, and we all know and accept that.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I still have no idea why anyone expects him to return to the story.

It's not like the Betty Ford Center, where you can leave after 30 days, completely rehabilitated.

Sandor Clegane is at rest. Indefinitely.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Lemongate

[Main menu]

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 10 #the hound is the gravedigger

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istumpysk · 7 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Theon's bastard

TIER:

People's Choice! I'm going to need a little more consensus on this one.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Another theory involving Theon having a secret child?

You bet!

What's the theory?

Theon impregnated the daughter of the captain of the Myraham.

Proof?

The Myraham is a trading cog from Oldtown captained by a large man.

At the beginning of A Clash of Kings, Theon Greyjoy hires the Myraham to transport him from Seagard to Lordsport to meet with his father, Balon Greyjoy.

The Myraham was a fat-bellied southron merchanter up from Oldtown, carrying wine and cloth and seed to trade for iron ore. Her captain was a fat-bellied southron merchanter as well, and the stony sea that foamed at the feet of the castle made his plump lips quiver, so he stayed well out, farther than Theon would have liked. An ironborn captain in a longship would have taken them along the cliffs and under the high bridge that spanned the gap between the gatehouse and the Great Keep, but this plump Oldtowner had neither the craft, the crew, nor the courage to attempt such a thing. - Theon I, ACOK

The journey took longer than Theon anticipated, giving him extra time for other activities.

A longship would have made the crossing in half the time as well. The Myraham was a wallowing tub, if truth be told, and he would not care to be aboard her in a storm. - Theon I, ACOK

What other activities, you might wonder? Taking the captain's daughter to bed.

Still, Theon could not be too unhappy. He was here, undrowned, and the voyage had offered certain other amusements. He put an arm around the captain's daughter. "Summon me when we make Lordsport," he told her father. "We'll be below, in my cabin." He led the girl away aft, while her father watched them go in sullen silence. - Theon I, ACOK

The cabin was the captain's, in truth, but it had been turned over to Theon's use when they sailed from Seagard. The captain's daughter had not been turned over to his use, but she had come to his bed willingly enough all the same. A cup of wine, a few whispers, and there she was. - Theon I, ACOK

We don't know much about the captain's daughter, but we do know she was an older maiden.

Late teens, perhaps? Early twenties? Not sure.

The girl was a shade plump for his taste, with skin as splotchy as oatmeal, but her breasts filled his hands nicely and she had been a maiden the first time he took her. That was surprising at her age, but Theon found it diverting. - Theon I, ACOK

The captain's daughter becomes enamored with Theon and wishes to accompany him ashore as his salt wife, but Theon isn't interested.

"I'd work in your castle, milord. I can clean fish and bake bread and churn butter. Father says my peppercrab stew is the best he's ever tasted. You could find me a place in your kitchens and I could make you peppercrab stew." "Once I might have carried you home as a prize, and kept you to wife whether you willed it or no. The ironmen of old did such things. A man had his rock wife, his true bride, ironborn like himself, but he had his salt wives too, women captured on raids." The girl's eyes grew wide, and not because he had bared her breasts. "I would be your salt wife, milord." "I fear those days are gone." - Theon I, ACOK

The girl begs Theon to take her with him, fearing her father will punish her once he departs.

~Foreshadowing alert~

Theon remains indifferent and suggests that her father should be grateful, as she's probably pregnant, and not everyone has the privilege of raising Reek's a king's bastard.

"My father," she told him. "Once you're gone, he'll punish me, milord. He'll call me names and hit me." Theon swept his cloak off its peg and over his shoulders. "Fathers are like that," he admitted as he pinned the folds with a silver clasp. "Tell him he should be pleased. As many times as I've fucked you, you're likely with child. It's not every man who has the honor of raising a king's bastard." She looked at him stupidly, so he left her there. - Theon I, ACOK

In the following Theon chapter, we learn that Balon is not allowing the Myraham or any other ships to depart the Iron Islands.

Theon quickened his stride as they neared the Myraham, rocking high and empty by the quay. Her captain had tried to sail a fortnight past, but Lord Balon would not permit it. None of the merchantmen that called at Lordsport had been allowed to depart again; his father wanted no word of the hosting to reach the mainland before he was ready to strike. "Milord," a plaintive voice called down from the forecastle of the merchanter. The captain's daughter leaned over the rail, gazing after him. Her father had forbidden her to come ashore, but whenever Theon came to Lordsport he spied her wandering forlornly about the deck. "Milord, a moment," she called after him. "As it please milord . . ." - Theon II, ACOK

Midway through the next book, A Storm of Swords, we learn that the Myraham was detained by Balon for more than six months. Amid the chaos of Balon's death and Euron's return, the captain fled.

Robb waited for Ser Raynald to close the tent flap. "The gods have heard our prayers, my lords. Lord Jason has brought us the captain of the Myraham, a merchanter out of Oldtown. Captain, tell them what you told me." "Aye, Your Grace." He licked his thick lips nervously. "My last port of call afore Seagard, that was Lordsport on Pyke. The ironmen kept me there more'n half a year, they did. King Balon's command. Only, well, the long and the short of it is, he's dead." - Catelyn V, ASOS

And that's the last we hear of the Myraham.

Are you sure?

No.

In A Feast for Crows, after Samwell arrives in Oldtown, he notices a young mother with a baby just a bit older than Mance's boarding a ship.

At the Weeping Dock, he watched two acolytes help an old man into a boat for the short voyage to the Bloody Isle. A young mother climbed in after him, a babe not much older than Gilly's squalling in her arms. - Samwell V, AFFC

To clarify:

The ship is anchored in Oldtown.

The Myraham is a trading cog from Oldtown.

The girl boarding the ship is described as a young mother.

The Myraham's captain's daughter was an older maiden.

Samwell observes that the baby is slightly older than Mance's child, who was born towards the end of A Storm of Swords.

In Catelyn V, ASOS, we learn that the Myraham was detained at the Iron Islands for just over six months.

The timing aligns perfectly.

And that's it.

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

There's no counter-evidence to consider; it's just a matter of whether you find a single sentence in a Samwell chapter enough to be credible.

I suppose you could argue that it's completely inconsequential.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I find it a bit odd the author gives us a timeline for the Myraham and the age of the baby in Oldtown.

Clearly, Asha will rule the Iron Islands, Theon will die, and none of this matters. Nonetheless, I lean towards it being a clever little easter egg that George included for shits and giggles.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

UnVictarion

[Main menu]

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 15 #theon's bastard

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istumpysk · 7 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

UnVictarion

[Undead Victarion Greyjoy]

TIER:

People's Choice! I can't participate due to my inherent bias.

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

vs.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

What's the theory?

Victarion's hand was injured during a battle at the Shield Islands and became infected.

While journeying to Slaver's Bay to retrieve Daenerys Targaryen, Victarion's Iron Fleet rescues the red priest Moqorro, who was previously lost at sea. Moqorro claims he foresaw in his fires that Victarion would die without his help, and after a peculiar ritual, he successfully heals him.

The question is: Did Victarion die and was he reanimated by the red priest, similar to Lady Stoneheart and Beric Dondarrion?

Proof?

Moqorro tells Victarion that he will die unless Moqorro intervenes.

It's entirely possible that this still happened.

The small man hesitated. "Lord Captain, he told me … he told me you would surely die unless we brought him to you." "That I would die?" Victarion snorted. Cut his throat and throw him in the sea, he was about to say, until a throb of pain in his bad hand went stabbing up his arm almost to the elbow, the agony so intense that his words turned to bile in his throat. He stumbled and seized the rail to keep from falling. - The Iron Suitor, ADWD

He turned to the black man. "Did the Vole speak true? You saw my death?" "That, and more." "Where? When? Will I die in battle?" His good hand opened and closed. "If you lie to me, I will split your head open like a melon and let the monkeys eat your brains." "Your death is with us now, my lord. Give me your hand." - The Iron Suitor, ADWD

While Victarion is being healed, the text appears to switch from third-person limited point of view to third-person omniscient. That's unusual for this author.

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water. - The Iron Suit, ADWD

There are similarities between Moqorro healing Victarion and Mirri Maz Duur "reviving" a nearly dead Khal Drogo.

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad [...] Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. - The Iron Suit, ADWD

Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them. - Daenerys VIII, AGOT

Mirri Maz Duur's voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Dany's back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving. Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone. - Daenerys VIII, AGOT

After being healed, Victarion is left with a charred, blackened, smoking hand that is remarkably strong. Despite the presence of magic in the series, that seems beyond what a typical living person could experience.

This is the type of sorcery we associate with Robert Strong, Coldhands, Lady Stoneheart, and Beric Dondarrion.

He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. - The Iron Suitor, ADWD

The arm the priest had healed was hideous to look upon, pork crackling from elbow to fingertips. Sometimes when Victarion closed his hand the skin would split and smoke, yet the arm was stronger than it had ever been. - Victarion I, ADWD

Moqorro appears to be manipulating Victarion, and treating him like an instrument for the red god.

"Take care, priest," Victarion warned him. "There are godly men aboard this ship who would tear out your tongue for speaking such blasphemies. Your red god will have his due, I swear it. My word is iron. Ask any of my men." The black priest bowed his head. "There is no need. The Lord of Light has shown me your worth, lord Captain. Every night in my fires I glimpse the glory that awaits you." - Victarion I, ADWD

Victarion also believes that R'hllor is supporting him.

"Two gods are with me now," he told the dusky woman. "No foe can stand before two gods." - Victarion I, ADWD

After this event, Victarion's name is finally used as his chapter heading, indicating to the reader that something has shifted. Some contend that there's also a significant shift in his personality.

The Iron Captain

The Reaver

The Iron Suitor

Victarion

Euron gifts Victarion a horn that states no mortal man shall sound it and live, leaving one to wonder whether Victarion has accidentally found himself an amusing loophole.

Moqorro turned the hellhorn, examining the queer letters that crawled across a second of the golden bands. "Here it says, 'No mortal man shall sound me and live.'" Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron's gifts are always poisoned. "The Crow's Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?" - Victarion I, ADWD

In the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees a vision of a Greyjoy we all assume is Aeron Dam-phair, but it could just as easily be an undead Victarion.

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. - Daenerys IV, ACOK

If Victarion is actually undead, the Greyjoy words end up being hilariously ironic.

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger! - The Prophet, AFFC

Other things to consider:

Moqorro is evil, isn't forthcoming about his intentions, and would certainly manipulate Victarion in this way.

At one point, Victarion renames two ships Ghost and Shade, which could be the author having a bit of fun.

The theory is hysterical and should be true for our entertainment.

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

Well, let's start with the obvious: Victarion doesn't seem to realize he's dead. However, one might argue that if there's anyone in the story who could overlook such a detail, it's Victarion Greyjoy.

Next, while Victarion hasn't been depicted eating or sleeping since the event, he has been shown to still possess a libido.

His dusky woman was enough to satisfy his appetites until he could reach Meereen and claim his queen. - Victarion I, ADWD

Victarion also still bleeds.

They left him one by one. The three thralls, and then Moqorro. Victarion would not let him take the hell-horn. "I will keep it here with me, until it is needed." "As you command. Would you have me bleed you?" - Victarion I, TWOW

From what we've seen, the horn can kill its user, and Moqorro appears to want to protect Victarion from this outcome, implying that he's not dead.

However, once again, Moqorro's intentions are dubious, and it's uncertain what he's truly planning.

Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron's gifts are always poisoned. "The Crow's Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?" "Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you." Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. "Here. 'Blood for fire, fire for blood.' Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn's master. You must claim the horn. With blood." - Victarion I, ADWD

Finally, some fans claim that George once stated he would never make a deceased character a POV (like Lady Stoneheart, for instance), suggesting that Victarion isn't dead. However, I can't find the exact quote.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I need this to be real.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Varys is a merman

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#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 16 #unvictarion

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istumpysk · 6 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Varys is a merman

TIER:

Joke: These theories are an absolute joke; anyone who believes them is a fool.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

What's the theory?

Varys is a merman. He's part human, part fish.

That's it, that's the theory.

Why are we doing this?

Despite this being one of the dumbest theories to ever emerge from this fandom, it has somehow still gained traction.

Therefore, we find ourselves obligated to address this utter stupidity.

Proof?* (*We'll use this term loosely.)

Merlings may potentially exist.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore." This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings." - Tyrion III, AGOT

We also learn about squishers: big-headed, scaly, white aquatic creatures that kidnap children, and that kind of sounds like Varys.

"Squishers?" Brienne gave him a suspicious look. "Monsters," Nimble Dick said, with relish. "They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth." He grinned at Podrick. "They'd eat you, boy. They'd eat you raw." - Brienne IV, AFFC

Varys is a trained mummer. He is a master of disguise who can alter his voice, gait, smell, and overall appearance.

The eunuch looked at him curiously, tilting his head. "When I was a young boy, before I was cut, I traveled with a troupe of mummers through the Free Cities. They taught me that each man has a role to play, in life as well as mummery. So it is at court. The King's Justice must be fearsome, the master of coin must be frugal, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard must be valiant … and the master of whisperers must be sly and obsequious and without scruple. A courageous informer would be as useless as a cowardly knight." - Eddard XV, AGOT

Varys has a slimy smile, a hairless scalp, smooth skin, and no genitalia.

"Why are you so helpful, my lord Varys?" he asked, studying the man's soft hands, the bald powdered face, the slimy little smile. - Tyion II, ACOK

Varys was portrayed as asexual in the TV show, and there are hints that his character is similar in the books, possibly implying an exclusive interest in other fish people.

When I see what desire does to people, what it's done to this country, I am very glad to have no part in it. Besides, the absence of desire leaves one free to pursue other things. - S04E06

Varys' bedchamber doesn't seem particularly cozy, which might suggest he's actually sleeping in the sea.

"They are humble. Excessively so, in truth." Tyrion had waited until Varys was summoned by his father before slipping in to pay him a visit. The eunuch's apartments were sparse and small, three snug windowless chambers under the north wall. [...] "There was water in your flagon, gods have mercy," he went on, "your sleeping cell is no wider than a coffin, and that bed . . . is it actually made of stone, or does it only feel that way?" Varys closed the door and barred it. "I am plagued with backaches, my lord, and prefer to sleep upon a hard surface." - Tyrion II, ASOS

This exchange.

He pressed his fingers into his temples. "I told them to throw Allar Deem into the sea. I am sorely tempted to do the same with you." "You might be disappointed by the result," Varys replied. "The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling. Might I trouble you for a taste of the wine that Lord Slynt enjoyed so much?" - Tyrion II, ACOK

Whatever argument this individual is attempting to make:

Other things to consider:

In Sanskrit, "vari" translates to "water."

Varys claims to have become a eunuch in Myr (Get it??).

Littlefinger hires The Merling King, a trading galley, possibly signaling his future victory over Varys.

In the television series, Varys survived a ship sinking while others drowned:

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

No, he's not.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

Don't even think about it.

NEXT THEORY:

Cersei is the YMBQ

[Main menu]

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 17 #varys is a merman

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istumpysk · 8 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Varys has Tyrek Lannister

TIER:

People's Choice!

Stumpy note: This is one of those times when I don't think you should pay close attention to my definitions. I don't want to influence your vote, but I just want to say that sometimes something can be extremely likely without there being mountains of evidence. For instance, consider a theory like the Hound being the gravedigger.

Strong Contender: These theories have a lot of textual support, but there are still some elements of uncertainty.

vs.

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

vs.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

First, who is Tyrek Lannister?

Son of Darlessa Marbrand and Tygett Lannister, Tywin Lannister's brother.

Handsome with long golden curls, roughly the same age as Sansa.

Served as Robert Baratheon's squire.

Married Lady Ermesande Hayford to secure her lands for House Lannister.

His bride, Ermesande, is an infant.

Moving on to the key points.

Stannis and Renly Baratheon block King's Landing's food supplies, causing widespread unrest. On the day Princess Myrcella leaves for Dorne, a mob attacks the royal party, sparking a riot.

Tyrek was in attendance and goes missing in the chaos.

"Ser Preston is not returned," Ser Boros Blount reported, "nor Aron Santagar." "Nor Wet Nurse," said Ser Horas Redwyne. That was the mocking name the other squires had hung on young Tyrek Lannister. - Tyrion IX, ACOK

And stays missing.

Tyrek was still missing, as was the High Septon's crystal crown. Nine gold cloaks had been slain, two score wounded. No one had troubled to count how many of the mob had died. "I want Tyrek found, alive or dead," Tyrion said curtly when Bywater was done. "He's no more than a boy. Son to my late uncle Tygett. His father was always kind to me." "We'll find him. The septon's crown as well." - Tyrion IX, ACOK

This mystery continues into the next book.

"Aye. I fear I did not leave him in the best of moods. Lord Tywin feels forty-four hundred guardsmen more than sufficient to find one lost squire, but your cousin Tyrek remains missing." Tyrek was the son of his late Uncle Tygett, a boy of thirteen. He had vanished in the riot, not long after wedding the Lady Ermesande, a suckling babe who happened to be the last surviving heir of House Hayford. And likely the first bride in the history of the Seven Kingdoms to be widowed before she was weaned. "I couldn't find him either," confessed Tyrion. - Tyrion I, ASOS

Suddenly, a throwaway detail: Varys, the master of whisperers and knower of all things, helped try to locate the young man.

"He's feeding worms," said Bronn with his usual tact. "Ironhand looked for him, and the eunuch rattled a nice fat purse. They had no more luck than we did. Give it up, ser." Ser Addam gazed at the sellsword with distaste. "Lord Tywin is stubborn where his blood is concerned. He will have the lad, alive or dead, and I mean to oblige him." He looked back to Tyrion. "You will find your father in his solar." - Tyrion I, ASOS

Then, another oddity: Varys the mummer puts on a bit of a performance.

"Alas, our beloved Tyrek has quite vanished, the poor brave lad." Varys sounded close to tears. - Tyrion III, ASOS

Not done yet, the author extends this mystery into A Feast for Crows. I can't give you an exact number of days, but at this point, Tyrek has been missing for a long time, and these people probably should have moved on.

Also, check out that ellipsis of truth.

The lady of the castle was a Lannister by marriage, a plump toddler who had been wed to his cousin Tyrek before she was a year old. Lady Ermesande was duly trotted out for their approval, all trussed up in a little gown of cloth-of-gold, with the green fretty and green pale wavy of House Hayford rendered in tiny beads of jade. But soon enough the girl began to squall, whereupon she was promptly whisked off to bed by her wet nurse. "Has there been no word of our Lord Tyrek?" her castellan asked as a course of trout was served. "None." Tyrek Lannister had vanished during the riots in King's Landing whilst Jaime himself was still captive at Riverrun. The boy would be fourteen by now, assuming he was still alive. "I led a search myself, at Lord Tywin's command," offered Addam Marbrand as he boned his fish, "but I found no more than Bywater had before me. The boy was last seen ahorse, when the press of the mob broke the line of gold cloaks. Afterward . . . well, his palfrey was found, but not the rider. Most like they pulled him down and slew him. But if that's so, where is his body? The mob let the other corpses lie, why not his?" "He would be of more value alive," suggested Strongboar. "Any Lannister would bring a hefty ransom." "No doubt," Marbrand agreed, "yet no ransom demand was ever made. The boy is simply gone." "The boy is dead." Jaime had drunk three cups of wine, and his golden hand seemed to be growing heavier and clumsier by the moment. A hook would serve me just as well. "If they realized whom they'd killed, no doubt they threw him in the river for fear of my father's wrath. They know the taste of that in King's Landing. Lord Tywin always paid his debts." "Always," Strongboar agreed, and that was the end of that. - Jaime III, AFFC

Finally, it happens: Jaime Lannister implicates Varys in the disappearance of Tyrek Lannister and openly questions why Varys wasn't present during the bread riots.

Also, another ellipsis of truth!

Yet afterward, alone in the tower room he had been offered for the night, Jaime found himself wondering. Tyrek had served King Robert as a squire, side by side with Lancel. Knowledge could be more valuable than gold, more deadly than a dagger. It was Varys he thought of then, smiling and smelling of lavender. The eunuch had agents and informers all over the city. It would have been a simple matter for him to arrange to have Tyrek snatched during the confusion . . . provided he knew beforehand that the mob was like to riot. And Varys knew all, or so he would have us believe. Yet he gave Cersei no warning of that riot. Nor did he ride down to the ships to see Myrcella off. - Jaime III, AFFC

You might remember that Varys also helped Gendry escape King's Landing and claims to have done the same for Aegon VI Targaryen.

Snatching young male nobles from King's Landing has become something of a hobby at this point. (Not to be outdone, Littlefinger has taken up the same pastime.)

"Here's something you don't know. It wasn't supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it's from. Lord Eddard's to take the black, he says to me, wait, he'll be going with you. Why d'you think I was there? Only something went queer." - Arya I, ACOK

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away." - Tyrion VI, ADWD

Lastly, in 2001, George R. R. Martin pulled a George R. R. Martin.

Was "file Tyrek" closed in ASOS with the hint that he ended in a bowl of stew? Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. - George R. R. Martin

(To my knowledge, it has never been hinted that Tyrek ended up in a bowl of stew.)

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

Maybe Littlefinger has him?

On a serious note, this is a totally realistic scenario:

"If they realized whom they'd killed, no doubt they threw him in the river for fear of my father's wrath. They know the taste of that in King's Landing. Lord Tywin always paid his debts." - Jaime III, AFFC

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Two more and Varys gets his boyband.

Remember everyone, sometimes: quality > quantity.

VOTE:

NEXT THEORY:

Tysha is the Sailor's Wife

[Main menu]

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 6 #varys has tyrek lannister

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istumpysk · 8 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Daario Naharis = Euron Greyjoy

[Daario Naharis and Euron Greyjoy are the same person.]

TIER:

A Joke: These theories are an absolute joke; anyone who believes them is a fool.

[Tier list overview.]

EVIDENCE:

Fine, I suppose we'll do this.

Both Daario and Euron are similarly attractive with blue eyes, beards, and smooth, fair skin.

The Tyroshi was fair where Ser Jorah was swarthy; lithe where the knight was brawny; graced with flowing locks where the other was balding, yet smooth-skinned where Mormont was hairy. [...] His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. His pointed mustachios were painted gold. - Daenerys IV, ASOS

Euron was the most comely of Lord Quellon's sons, and three years of exile had not changed that. His hair was still black as a midnight sea, with never a whitecap to be seen, and his face was still smooth and pale beneath his neat dark beard. A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer sky. - The Iron Captain, AFFC

Both Daario and Euron exhibit grandiosity, mockery, and a violent, bloodthirsty, brutal, and dangerous nature.

Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still. "Do you take me for the Butcher King?" "Better the butcher than the meat. All kings are butchers. Are queens so different?" - Daenerys IV, ADWD

"Just so," said Euron, "and for that sin I kill them all. I spill their blood upon the sea and sow their screaming women with my seed. Their little gods cannot stop me, so plainly they are false gods. I am more devout than even you, Aeron. Perhaps it should be you who kneels to me for blessing." - The Iron Captain, AFFC

Daario commands the Stormcrows, while Euron, known as Crow's Eye, is often likened to a storm.

"Khaleesi," he cried, "I bring gifts and glad tidings. The Stormcrows are yours." A golden tooth gleamed in his mouth when he smiled. "And so is Daario Naharis!" - Daenerys IV, ASOS

I have seen the storm, and its name is Euron Crow's Eye. - The Prophet, AFFC

Daario is frequently absent in Meereen, while Euron's location was unknown during Daenerys' initial conquests in Slaver's Bay.

The most crucial task of all she had entrusted to Daario Naharis, glib-tongued Daario with his gold tooth and trident beard, smiling his wicked smile through purple whiskers. Beyond the eastern hills was a range of rounded sandstone mountains, the Khyzai Pass, and Lhazar. If Daario could convince the Lhazarene to reopen the overland trade routes, grains could be brought down the river or over the hills at need … - Daenerys I, ADWD

"I want them gone. Let them scout the Yunkish hinterlands and give protection to any caravans coming over the Khyzai Pass. Henceforth Daario shall make his reports to you. Give him every honor that is due him and see that his men are well paid, but on no account admit him to my presence." - Daenerys IV, ADWD

Only Daario had been given to the Yunkai'i, a hostage to ensure no harm came to the Yunkish captains. - Daenerys X, ADWD

Asha slid her dirk out of its sheath and began to clean the dirt from beneath her fingernails. "Three years away, and the Crow's Eye returns the very day my father dies." - The Kraken's Daughter, AFFC

Daario gained considerable loot from the sack of Yunkai, while Euron had significant spoils for the Kingsmoot.

Daario had plundered himself a whole new wardrobe in Meereen, and to match it he had redyed his trident beard and curly hair a deep rich purple. - Daenerys VI, ASOS

The mutes and mongrels from the Silence threw open Euron's chests and spilled out his gifts before the captains and the kings. Then it was Hotho Harlaw the priest heard, as he filled his hands with gold. - The Drowned Man, AFFC

Daenerys is infatuated with Daario, while Euron is certain he will wed her.

Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly. - The Kingbreaker, ADWD

"[...] No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware." - The Reaver, AFFC

Daario hails from Tyrosh, while Euron disguised Ironborn as Tyroshi.

"It grieves me that honest men must suffer such discourtesy, but sooner that than ironmen in Oldtown. Only a fortnight ago some of those bloody bastards captured a Tyroshi merchantman in the straits. They killed her crew, donned their clothes, and used the dyes they found to color their whiskers half a hundred colors. Once inside the walls they meant to set the port ablaze and open a gate from within whilst we fought the fire. Might have worked, but they ran afoul of the Lady of the Tower, and her oarsmaster has a Tyroshi wife. When he saw all the green and purple beards he hailed them in the tongue of Tyrosh, and not one of them had the words to hail him back." - Samwell V, AFFC

Euron is thought to use warlock magic to control the winds for faster sailing, which, according to many, might allow him to travel at the speed of light.

"Do I command the winds?" the Crow's Eye asked his pets. "No, Your Grace," said Orkwood of Orkmont. "No man commands the winds," said Germund Botley. "Would that you did," the Red Oarsman said. "You would sail wherever you liked and never be becalmed." - The Iron Captain, AFFC

The wind was at their backs, as it had been all the way down from Old Wyk. It was whispered about the fleet that Euron's wizards had much and more to do with that, that the Crow's Eye appeased the Storm God with blood sacrifice. How else would he have dared sail so far to the west, instead of following the shoreline as was the custom? - The Reaver, AFFC

Compelling stuff.

Other things to consider:

Both Daario and Euron are primarily attracted to Daenerys for her power and dragons.

Daario has no family, friends, or known history.

Daario's gold tooth could be artificial, while Euron's blue lips might be temporary.

Daenerys experiences multiple visions and warnings about Euron, including those in the House of the Undying and from Quaithe. She and others also see Daario as a detrimental influence.

If Euron is so set on acquiring dragons, why would he be preoccupied with the Shield Islands and the Arbor instead of focusing on Daenerys and Slaver's Bay? Shouldn't he be in Meereen?

Some speculate that Euron has warging abilities, eliminating the need for him to physically sail back and forth between Slaver's Bay and Westeros.

Apparently George R. R. Martin once hinted that Daario is more complex than he initially seems.

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

It defies the laws of physics?

Are parts of this fandom seriously not familiar with the concept of parallel characters?

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Kudos to those who've noticed the intentional similarities between these two characters, even if no one is asking what that implies about Daenerys.

That said, if you genuinely believe this theory, you're officially ...

a bozo.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective — I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

The miller's boys were Theon's sons.

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 3 #daario = euron

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istumpysk · 8 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = Jon Snow (N + A = J)

TIER:

Debunked: These theories have been directly contradicted by the text, George R. R. Martin, or other authoritative sources.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Ashara Dayne was a Dornish noblewoman, rumored to be Jon Snow's mother. Her life ended under mysterious and tragic circumstances.

We're first told of the rumor that Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's supposed mother in one of the opening chapters of A Game of Thrones.

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again. - Catelyn II, AGOT

The name resurfaces when Cersei Lannister, who has evidently heard the same rumors, uses Ashara to challenge Ned's honor.

In the next book, Catelyn once again ponders the possibility that Ashara might be Jon's mother.

Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine? They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him. - Catelyn VI, ACOK

When Bran hears the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, we learn more about Ned and Ashara's initial meeting and their dance at Harrenhal.

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. - Bran II, ASOS

In an Arya chapter, Edric Dayne of House Dayne—presumably someone with insider knowledge—reveals more details about Ned and Ashara's alleged love affair. Harwin confirms that he has also heard such rumors.

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born." "Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled. Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. "Your lord father never spoke of her?" he said. "The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?" "No. Did he know her?" "Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring." "Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?" "Her heart was broken." Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?" He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . ." "Tell me." He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—" "That's not so. He loved my lady mother." "I'm sure he did, my lady, but—" "She was the only one he loved." "He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then," Gendry said behind them. [...] It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. "Where do you think you're going, milady? You shouldn't run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things." "I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said . . ." "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged." - Arya VIII, ASOS

Barristan Selmy, who was present at Harrenhal and held great fondness for Ashara Dayne, recalls her suicide over a lost child and/or a man dishonoring her. He wonders whether he could have prevented her becoming enamored with "Stark."

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? - The Kingbreaker, ADWD

Lastly, Catelyn mentions that Ned refers to Jon as his son, a claim corroborated in the book's opening chapter.

"Beyond a doubt," his lord father said. "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now." He sent his horse into a trot. Jory and Bran and the rest came after. - Bran I, AGOT

The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. - Catelyn II, AGOT

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

God, where do we begin?

The confirmation from George R. R. Martin to David Benioff and D.B. Weiss regarding Jon's true parentage.

It's well known that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss correctly guessed Jon's true parents, giving George R. R. Martin the confidence to let them adapt his book series.

Martin recounted, "I did ask them a few pointed question to determine whether they had actually read the books, and they gave me the right answers." When asked to specify what they were grilled on, Weiss elaborated: He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point. — The 'Game of Thrones' writers had to answer this trick question about the book before they were allowed to make the series

Who were Jon's parents in the television series adapted and written by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss?

Right.

The leaked original outline.

Here.

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Until. Until.

Let me point out the obvious here: if Jon were Ned's child with Ashara Dayne, there would be no parentage reveal that could relieve the torment felt by Jon and Arya. They would still be half-siblings, and it would still be unacceptable for them to be in love. Not much of a reveal then, is it?

The original intended purpose of revealing Jon's parentage was not to place him on a throne or to fulfill a special prophecy; rather, it was to pave the way for a possible romance with a sister. This doesn't work if Ned Stark is his father.

The timeline simply doesn't add up.

The tourney at Harrenhal, where Ned danced with Ashara, took place in 281 AC. Ned traveled down from the Eyrie.

It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. - Eddard XV, AGOT

The year after that tournament, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, leading to the eventual deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark, and the start of Robert's Rebellion.

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Ned Stark had returned to the Eyrie following the tournament.

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. [...]" - Davos I, ADWD

Robert's Rebellion spanned 282-283 AC.

Are you wondering what Ned was up to during that time? I'll tell you.

(map!)

Ned Stark was in the Eyrie when King Aerys demanded his head.

Unable to use Gulltown, he crossed the Mountains of the Moon to get to the Fingers.

He then hired a fisherman to take him to White Harbor, but a storm rerouted him to the Three Sisters.

Thankfully, Lord Borrell granted him safe passage to continue on to White Harbor.

Upon reaching Winterfell, Ned immediately called his banners.

He subsequently marched south to the Stoney Sept and helped secure a victory in the Battle of the Bells.

Following that battle, he travelled to Riverrun and married Catelyn Tully.

At this point, Robb Stark was conceived.

Around this same period, Jon Snow should also have been conceived.

After that, Ned participated in the Battle of the Trident, contributing to the defeat of House Targaryen's forces (laugh out loud).

He then marched to King's Landing, only to find that Tywin Lannister had already sacked the city.

Note: Ashara Dayne was not present.

He then moved on to Storm's End to lift the siege, thereby saving Stannis Baratheon (and pissing me off).

Following this, he travelled to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne. There, he defeated Arthur Dayne among others, and discovered his dying sister, Lyanna Stark.

Before her death, Lyanna made Ned promise her something. (Prioritize self-care? Never stop learning? Forgive yourself for past mistakes? Save and invest? Be the best you can be? Gosh, who could say.)

After the events at the Tower of Joy, he travelled to Starfall, the home of Ashara Dayne, to return the ancestral sword of House Dayne.

Note: He did not stay for 40 weeks.

Finally, Ned returned to Winterfell, bringing with him a baby and a wet nurse.

Shortly after, Catelyn Stark arrived at Winterfell with Robb Stark, who was considered the older of the two babies by literally everyone.

The end.

So, I ask you, given that Jon wasn't conceived at the tournament at Harrenhal in 281 AC—

Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. - Bran I, AGOT

Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. - Catelyn II, AGOT

When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. - Catelyn II, AGOT

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts. - George R. R. Martin

—when exactly, during Robert's Rebellion, did Ned manage to teleport himself to Ashara Dayne to conceive this child?

Catelyn Stark is a smart woman, but sometimes emotional distress can cloud one's judgment.

The Brandon Stark Consideration.

In true George R. R. Martin fashion, there's hints that another Stark may be more relevant to Ashara Dayne.

Ned Dayne casually mentions that Ashara met not only Ned at Harrenhal, but also his brothers.

"Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring." - Arya VIII, ASOS

When Bran hears about Ned and Ashara's dance, an ellipsis of truth clarifies that this occurred only after a conversation between Brandon Stark and Ashara.

[What the hell is an ellipsis of truth? George R. R. Martin frequently uses an ellipsis as a technique to emphasize statements in the text that are highly relevant or truthful.]

Barristan's reference to 'Stark' is amusingly vague and non-identifying.

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? - The Kingbreaker, ADWD

In A Dance with Dragons, we learn that unlike Ned Stark, Brandon Stark was the type of guy to dishonor a highborn woman he had no intention of marrying.

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. - The Turncloak, ADWD

I have a feeling we'll hear more and more about Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne in the upcoming books.

The complete and total absence of Ashara Dayne in Ned Stark's thoughts.

Ned Stark is an introspective man, often dwelling on past events and his family. So why is it that in all his chapters, he never once thinks of Ashara Dayne, his great love and the alleged mother of one of his children, who tragically took her own life?

He doesn't reflect on her when thinking about Jon, while recalling Robert's Rebellion, when considering Arthur Dayne, or even during his recollections of the tournament at Harrenhal where they supposedly fell in love.

It sort of feels like the woman means absolutely nothing to him.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?" "For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow." - Eddard II, AGOT

Nothing! Unaffected. Unfazed. It rolled right off him.

Confused Edric Dayne.

Edric Dayne tells Arya that his aunt, Allyria, told him that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal.

A few things to consider:

Edric Dayne was born in 287 AC, well after the events of Harrenhal and the Rebellion.

Arya got goosebumps when Lord Beric said her father's name, but this Ned was only a boy, a fair-haired squire no more than ten or twelve. - Arya VI, ASOS

Edric Dayne doesn't actually believe Ashara is Jon's mother. He thinks Jon's mother was his wet nurse, Wylla.

(I hope I don't have to point out again that Ned Stark didn't stay at Starfall for 40 weeks, and this story makes no sense.)

(I'm sure I also don't need to point out that the author prevents little Ned from claiming something factually untrue and swearing it on the honor of his house.)

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?" "Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me." Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?" "Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born." "Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face." "Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House." - Arya VIII, ASOS

But what about his aunt Allyria, who told him Ned and Ashara fell in love?

Well, we don't know a lot about Allyria, but we do know one thing: she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion in 294 AC or 295 AC.

"How long have you been Lord Beric's squire?" she asked, to take his mind from his misery. "He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt." He coughed. "I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings." - Arya VIII, ASOS

Beric Dondarrion was born in either 276 AC or 277 AC. He was 21 years old at the beginning of A Game of Thrones, which would make him a young boy during the tournament of Harrenhal and the Rebellion.

Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two - Sansa III, AGOT

Given cultural norms, Beric's age, and the year of their betrothal, what is the likelihood that Allyria is younger than Beric? I'd say very likely.

That would make her a little girl during the events of Harrenhal and the Rebellion, so it's doubtful she has firsthand knowledge of Ashara or Ned.

The "son" issue.

Yes, Ned refers to Jon as his son in Bran's opening chapter. Yes, Catelyn claims Ned calls Jon his son. However, I have to point out, we're often shown Ned referring to Jon as anything but his son.

"He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. [...]" - Catelyn II, AGOT

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned." - Catelyn II, AGOT

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? - Eddard IX, AGOT

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?" Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart." "No less do I love mine." Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. - Eddard XII, AGOT

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him - Eddard XV, AGOT

Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …" - Bran III, ADWD

Other things to consider:

Quick question, what impact would Jon's identity as a secret Dayne have on the overall narrative? None. Hello?

Anyone with two brain cells should be able to figure out that when the book quickly reveals Ashara Dayne as Jon's real mother, that's obviously not the case.

It's pretty easy to tell that Ned Stark is not the type of man to cheat on his wife or dishonor a maiden. He's the quiet wolf who's too shy to speak to girls.

While George has never explicitly confirmed the R+L=J theory himself, he has been known to slip once or twice when being pressed on the topic.

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names? Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned. - George R. R. Martin

Lastly, and most important,

THE INESCAPABLE, OVERWHELMING, INDISPUTABLE, OPEN-AND-SHUT, CRYSTAL CLEAR, AVALANCHE OF EVIDENCE THAT CAN BE FOUND IN EVERY SINGLE BOOK AND SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL POINTING TO LYANNA STARK AND RHAEGAR TARGARYEN BEING JON SNOW'S ACTUAL PARENTS. HOLY FUCK.

Is there more? Probably. But I'm tired and I think I've made enough points.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I hate this theory like I hate flat earthers.

Just out there being stupid for no reason.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

The Hound is the gravedigger.

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#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 9 #n + a = j

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