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#he and karkat are just two sides of the same coin its why they were perfect for each other
deneveve-is-lost · 2 years
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Listen homestuck is actually very good as long as you don't have the expectations if fandom tumblr clouding your judgement, it's an extremely stupid satire of teenage online behaviour in the 2010s delivered via an extremely stupid and complicated story made up of utterly random decisions chosen to fuel character conflict and shenanigans rather than be anything approaching a consistent story, my friend has been telling me all the lore about Minecraft streamers recently and I couldn't help but compare it to Homestuck because it's so absurdly similar in how convoluted and hard to follow it is, because it is a bunch of people playing a video game together and creating the "plot" through their interactions and what they want to do in the game. There are so many different perspectives to follow and each one will show you a different piece of the overarching story while also being a story in itself. Homestuck is absurdly similar, despite being a webcomic written by one person. Obviously with Homestuck it's hard to follow just one character's perspective and certain things are skipped over if nothing important is happening, but ultimately it's still just a bunch of teenagers playing a video game together with all of the chaos that involves. It still astounds me how well written the character interactions are, they're full of dumb bullshit and stupid jokes but also genuine conversations about identity and family and love and friendship and all the things that come along with that. All the things people talk about Homestuck being are in there, but if you go into it expecting it to start off that way or to not read thousands of pages of stupid jokes as well as that, you'll be disappointed.
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telaraneas · 2 years
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I love your analyses, they're like good food. Especially the one about vriska and gamzee's parallels, because it makes so much sense and it's SO obvious once you compare them, but also so easy to miss because hussie never went anywhere with it. ALSO the fact that gamzee subtly controls the meteor trip before the retcon (very passively, but clearly in control and manipulating in the background) whereas when vriska is brought back she steals that role right out of his hands (we even see a sequence with him trying to explain to kurloz that vriska took control, or something along those lines) it's like they're two sides to the same coin, one always losing if the other one wins (also interesting to consider gamzee representing lord English too, with the whole vriska vs fate thing.) Which brings me to terezi as well bc terezi and vriska are obviously the ones that have the most coin imagery, but it's interesting to note that while terezi THINKS she wants to be the one to oppose vriska, what she ACTUALLY wants is to be on the same side (and weren't they all along, anyway?) I also like how you can contextualize a lot of things with this framework too, with the ppl associated with vriska being those who are usually heroes or want to be heroes (terezi, John, tavros) and the ppl associated with gamzee being those who don't consider themselves heroes or fail at it in some way or another (dirk, equius, karkat.) Which also brings me to the idea of light vs rage, or certainty/clarity/luck vs doubt/chaos/pessimism. Both aspects seem to intersect at what they believe to be 'truth' which is interesting considering gamzee and vriska are both very fixated on their goals/idea of how things should be, and to them anyone who doubts that is weak and needs to be 'fixed' (tavros, terezi.) This was mostly me rambling, but I guess if I were to have a request it would be what you think about the Light vs Rage thing, especially in the context of the story. Rage seems to be the hidden enemy that nobody realizes is the true enemy at first (which is why nobody realizes that hope is the true hero all along against lord english) and light seems to be the force that dictates whether or not people notice these things at all before it's too late? But idk, that's just off the top of my dome. I would love to hear your thoughts on it!
hi, sorry to say this but i think you have the wrong person??? the gamzee-vriska post is by @hemoanarchists i just reblogged it from my own blog after finally getting around to reading it, oops
if you still want my two cents on the light-rage topic anyways, i honestly hadn't thought about it until now but yeah actually that does make sense. narratively it seems like light and rage are more viscerally opposite to each other than even light and void- light and void work in concert with each other in the context of how homestuck's storytelling functions, where pockets of information are hidden from us at all times to be backfilled as the story demands and that is part of how the story advances itself in a coherent way.
but rage and all its associations seem to be more about the absurd, that which inherently repels light and meaning and fills in for it, eg how in the hussie-caliborn conversations hussie states he really has no idea of what gamzee's deal is. gamzee is not godtier and yet he is inmortal, and while this is later backfilled to be basically plot armor because he needs to be alive at the point of the big melding of components for lord english's creation, at the moment the actual reason gamzee cannot die is Rule Of Funny. he is a force of the absurd and yet is used as a tool for filling in the needs of the story in a way that vriska fights tooth and nail to loudly claim for herself and yet never fully grasps. vriska, like gamzee, always exists tangentially to the main cast and never by her own merits, but unlike gamzee, she constantly tries to worm herself into the main story, affording her constant presence in the narrative so long as she keeps deliberately fucking with it; meanwhile gamzee is carried throughout the story and given increasing plot relevance purely due to how absurd and funny it is for him of all people to be central to the entire plot of homestuck
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theorynexus · 4 years
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Yay, 72!~
It suddenly occurs to me that Davepeta becoming a thing might not have only been the logical conclusion of ARquiusprite being included in Lord English (thus allowing Dave and Nepeta to confront their Bro and Equius in destined combat/pacification), but also possibly a reference to Dave’s fursona,  Akwete Purrmusk, whom he once used to RP with Nepeta after first being unable to utilize it with Jade?          Just a weird and sudden though that occurred to me at the end of my last post.  I thought it would be preferable to leave the “Do:” as the last note of said previous page, though.
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I am in fact reasonably sure it could technically qualify as the one you grew up with.   That said... awwww, that’s not nice, taking Gamzee away before the battle rather than after/during its tail end.   That means that Gamzee that took place in it lost his conditional mortality and almost certainly just died in the world explosion/black hole.   What a cruel thing to DOOM him to. v.v
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I remember this.  Also:  Maybe he hadn’t. At least, not in a non-romantic way.  I certainly can’t remember such an occurrence. 
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Oh, umm... is this supposed to have been a reference to him being part of Lord English all along?  Man. There goes another joke flying above all of our heads. Wow.
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Yeah. You go back to being too cool for school, not-yet-a-villain!Dirk. Nothing to see here.
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Well. That’s an interesting trick. Very magician-like. Almost Houdini-ish. 
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I suddenly wonder if Calliope has a sense of smell.   More importantly, gah, I know that smell. Not pretty.  John really should have thought this through more.
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Awww. Him having wheezes mixed in there along with coughs is not a good thing. Not very nice or silly at all.   >:
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On the other hand, his boos and hoos work very well with the honks, and fit with his Comedy/Tragedy persona duality.  “Sob” being mixed in is a mixed bag, but oh well.    Anyway, his being rescued and treated kindly by Calliope, here, sortof makes sense of his willingness to so pitiably serve the Cherubs later, I guess.   It’s not just a desire to become LE later, but a longsuffering debt payment which he is engaging in with Calliope.  Thus, his Rage is suppressed, especially compared to his violence in the Game Over timeline.
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Prison CAN reform some people!   Torturous time in near-suffocating conditions can really make one rethink the decisions one’s made in one’s life, regardless of the major reveals concerning the fictionality/fates of such people, I guess.
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Locked being semi-ironic, here. Because most certainly does this revelation stay with him; yet at the same time, he indeed also is corrupted by the influence of Caliborn and willingly ends up serving him+becoming part of LE.   ***shrugs***
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***raises an eyebrow***    What an interesting wording and thought.   I did not think that Calliope would be the kind to be so performative like this!  (Or at least worn down/out of patience~)
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Man, I don’t need to hear your inherently biased explanation. I mean, others might, but the fact that it’s coming from you and not the narrator isn’t going to help people actually recognize the tragedy inherent in your existence!
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...   ...   ...    Aaaaaaaannnnnd this makes me think that Gamzee is actually being insincere, considering he is not actually in fact addressing the true problems that caused him to snap and become evil:  namely, Tavros’s death and Lil Cal. None of that other stuff affected him at all other than to cause him to become more susceptible to the aforementioned and much more important events, subsequent to his running out of the pie that his neglectful father figure allowed him to poison himself and/or rot his think pan with. Mind you, I’m sure that the initial burst of rage that would lead him to storm off would in fact be a result of his subjugglator/religious upbringing, but... Well, if those two events had not actually occurred, I’m sure that he would not have taken up the carefully planned---     you know what, given his rant to Dave about using his chucklevoodoos to make their universe terminal as a result of the blasphemies that Dave gave him via the Miracles music video, I have changed my mind.   I will admit that his upbringing DID have an influence on his actions, beyond making him fall to the perfect moment of weakness for LE to influence and direct him.  I’d say that if I had to measure it, the responsibility of his earlier life would be something between 30 and 49.9% of the overall reason for his behavior during the series of events called Murderstuck. His only mentioning the upbringing side of the coin still makes me question how honest he is being, though.  Having him explain it in such a manner really makes him seem to just be making excuses in a blatantly insincere manner.
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Uhhh... Karkat?   Dangit, I knew it was going to be Terezi, but Karkat seemed the more straight-forward choice to inform before her.   Ugh.     Darn me and my refusal to make guesses that seem a bit less secure, sometimes.
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Yeah... he probably deserves one.  Gosh darned prerequisite hidden conditions for the proliferation of reality, and the fact that you don’t want to---   wow, why does Karkat have tarps the color of his blood on his house [I forget the troll term] if he is trying to hide said blood color?   I’m sorry. It’s just that Let’s Read Homestuck is playing on my TV for some reason or another, and the thought suddenly occurred to me. Hivebent has obviously just begun.    Anyway, yeah, you wouldn’t want to get Gamzee raging out of control, at this point~
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Yeeaaahhh.   Not much to say, indeed.  What can you do?  
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...   I take it Terezi’s not going to be split between timelines?  Or is she?  Hmm.  It feels like events over there should remain singular; meanwhile, stuff in Earth C are divided.   I wonder if he’ll continue to talk to Terezi for a long, long time to come, despite the fact that John from the Meat Epilogue never really did until he met up with her again.    (She is right, though. He really didn’t deserve redemption. It’s just... necessary.  Gosh, he’s going to probably screw things up so badly, socially.  I shudder to think of the nonsense that shall result. Shall Earth C[andy] truly become the Paradise Planet that was prophesied? I guess that would make sense of his statement that the mirthful messiahs were both him and ***expletive*** him, mayhaps.  If he, for some time, spends his life as a sort of religious leader in this timeline, before moving on to the far future to help Calliope and Caliborn in their youth. )
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Wow. This is a dramatic reversal of the other situation: her feeling like it’s been far, far longer than it has for the other John, once they do meet up.  Veeerrry interesting, seeing the mirror’s faces juxtaposed like this.
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Irony.  Also:  WHAT THE HECK IS PSEP?!?!?!     Also also:  Way to go, you derp-head. He’s the one she’d least want to revisit.  Bringing him back practically assures she stays out of this version of the universe you live in!
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It’s nice to see them both in such high spirits and playful humors, though. :3
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Gosh, I hope that no one’s beginning to feel pity toward that pile of horns.  No one wants to see the disgusting filth that might emerge as a result.  The world doesn’t need more of that.
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Yeah, he wouldn’t be able to. This is genuinely a huge shift in the balance of the world, though.  The beginning of a dark, dark carnival of mayhem to come, probably.   “performatively” seals the deal, especially with him speaking to the crowd like that.   ***shudders***
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dahniwitchoflight · 5 years
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Candy page 9 to page 11
Oh damn, I actually got sucked into the story a bit that i forget to react at all to 9 and 10, got midway through the 11 johndave convo that i realized oh fuck right i should be writing this shit down
So, interestingly enough, the narrative seems to be implying that Jade wants to do a quadrant polyamorous thing with Karkat and Dave
the little mention of fledgling kismessitude with her and karkat and the later notes of her wanting to fuck both dave and karkat suggests that she wants Karkat in Spades and Dave in Hearts
though funnily enough she might actually want to flipflop between the both of them as well
because the little quip about her being determined to solve relationship problems like math problems and turning their hands flipwise behind her back just reminded me of Karkat’s attempt to partition Terezi between himself and Dave also potentially flipflopping the quadrants the same way
just this time it’s Jade not Terezi and it’s the girl not Karkat being the one to suggest it lol
She does also literally make a diamond with her hands and put Karkat and Dave at the centre of it, suggesting she doesn’t mind them being in a relationship together, but wants monopolyamory of the sexuality part of it
Dave and Karkat stay diamonds in her mind while both take turns being flush or pitch with her
It’s a perfectly mathematical arrangement
John’s not wrong when he says she has the social graces of an elephant lol
But it is clear that she does love them both and is just lonely
Everyone seems to be having similar love troubles
John considering between Roxy and Terezi and since his feelings don’t clearly lie in one direction it makes him feel guilty, cuz even when directly confronted with Dave’s situation he doesn’t really entertain the idea that he could do something similar at all, and feels really uncomfortable with Roxy’s and Calliope’s previous relationship, like he feels bad Roxy has to choose him over her, also not thinking about a love triangle as a solution rather than as a problem
Really laying it on thick the idea of having to choose between one thing or another thing in a black and white this or that only sort of way is a really difficult and tragic way of looking at the situation
Heck, they even talk about how coins flips don’t always mean you have two options
“DAVE: ok so every time you flip a coin youre creating an alternate timeline right”
Meat and Candy are alternate timelines created by a “seemingly” binary choice
“DAVE: one where it lands heads and one where it lands tails”
So choose, Meat, or Candy?
“DAVE: but while the coin is flipping both possibilities exist simultaneously”
A prologue for the epilogues existed, a time before John (The Reader) actually made a choice, but it could no futher until a choice was made, until the coin fell
“JOHN: but what if you knew for sure that you’d make the same decision no matter which side landed up?
DAVE: you cant
JOHN: so... it’s like the coin never lands then?
There is a “correct” decision for both of them, both of them do have an idea of which choice theyd prefer over the other, it’s not equalized to them, but they feel guilty about that
they dance around the idea of there being a third option, but don’t have the words to articulate what that means for them besides “not having the coin ever fall, keep it suspended forever and the choice never has to happen”
Because a Coin can’t land both heads up and tails up
but it can land perfectly on it’s razor edge if you’re lucky
You can actively choose another way, rather than just avoid making a choice
Though it is also unfortunately is also implying that both Dave and John would rather be making one choice over another
Dave doesn’t love Jade romantically, not really, he just feels guilty about her and her situation, Dave loves Karkat and here, the idea makes him panic
John doesn’t love Roxy romantically, not really, he just feels guilty about her and her situation, John loves Terezi, and here, the idea makes him panic
Both of them feel like they should try to love Jade/Roxy, just for reasons that don’t actually involve genuine romantic feeling
John focuses on the setting feeling sterotypically romantic, the diner, the pretty lights, the scene feeling right, looking at everything except her
and then that line about how Roxy’s eyes look like staring into the Void, Roxy being unreadable, and seeming to change between the routes, bringing up topics vaguely, like she’s fishing for an opinion of the person’s she’s talking to
Roxy is probably just a social chameleon, eyes like mirrors reflecting the person next to her
Looking into a mirror, you have to get past seeing your own face in the reflection, and somehow look behind your own head and that’s pretty hard to do in a mirror
then the boys immediately segue back into what it means to make the “right” choice, the “canon” choice
John understand in some way that its not enough to have only two choices, or the option to not choose at all
more and more the third option awakens, just what it will be remains to be seen, written in the leafy green
It’s not without intent that the number 3 is Canon:
Essential, True, and Relevant 
So far, Meat seems to carry what is “Essential” in that it technically fulfills timeloops, hits story beats and moves things along at a good pace in a proper story format, the skeleton layout, the barebones structure
But it feels Irrelevant and ingenuine to what the characters experience, so it feels unsatisfying, it doesn’t feel “right”
it doesn’t feel canon
Candy then is obviously not essential to the story at large, it’s made very clear what happens here is technically without meaning and many of the characters are inundated with that feeling of “it doesn’t matter” irrelevance
but it also is technically truth, this timeline does exist and it did happen, these are not fake events
But since it is ONLY “True”, but not essential or relevant, it feels unsatisfying, it doesn’t feel right
it doesn’t feel canon
What then are we left with? What is missing?
And there IS something missing, they make it very clear with the stuff from PesterQuest so far
You click on the last page of the Homestuck Epilogues, then you scroll down. You read it (1). Then you read it again (2). You scroll down to go to the next section (3) and find... nothing?
What kind of ending was that? Absolutely nothing got resolved!
aka, Nothing Mattered.
Nothing was actually relevant to the story we were told.
We’re missing that hidden third pillar.
John remembers those words, essential, true, relevant, but no other contextual remarks which bind them.
He lost why it matters, he’s lost the context for it entirely. 
Also, random Roxy note: “She grins up at John with shimmering, adoring eyes. They’re reflecting every star in the sky, all for him.”
Yup, she’s a social mirror, that’s why people have trouble getting a good read on her
“It makes his heart do a weird somersault. It tries to flip frontways (1), then backwards (2), and ends up landing on its face instead. (3)”
The Coin tried to flip heads, then tails, then ended up landing on it’s side
the more you look for it, the more evidence there is for that hidden third route, all of the text is cluttered with things happening in threes, first a couple of opposite situations, then a third unexpected one.
“ It itches at the back of his head, the idea that he might have just fucked up Dave’s entire life. “
Told ya, John you got main character-ism, you can’t do anything about affecting people one way or another
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lotarclasspects · 5 years
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The Homestuck Epilogue and Analysis of the Text as a Whole (brief)
EPILOGUE SPOILERS AHEAD 
As many of you in this fandom have recently born witness to: The Epilogue is finally here. It begins with a prologue, with John being disillusioned from the world and Rose telling him that him going back is essential. In the beginning of the story we are introduced to the idea of things which, viewed from the lens of the greater story, are not necessarily measured in terms of one person’s moral stand point of “Good” or “Bad”, rather Essential and Inessential. This is the axis upon which Vriska turns, this is the path of events which Rose can see, and this is the stage upon which the conflict of our two Narrators comes to pass.
To understand the Epilogue, we must first, briefly, summarise some of the core themes of Homestuck. These, in short being: The Agency of the Characters, The Narrative itself as the Villian, and the meaning of Freedom. 
We will begin with the meaning of Freedom. What it means to be Home Stuck. Homestuck is not named simply as a joke about the start of the story, but its name rings true as an abstract way of representing the main objective of its characters. To win, and be at peace in the new Universe. For you see, much like Problem Sleuth, they only leave the house at the very end. But this only makes sense if you understand the Symbols because as Rose Lalonde, Seer of Light, One who Understands the Narrative’s Focus, explains: “The symbols holdall the power”. As you are probably all aware, the entire story focuses on the fates of the characters as they toil through the Alpha Timeline. As we later learn, this “timeline” is not the one which leads to the most fortuitous outcome, nor is it one which allows all characters to have equal relevance or fulfillment. It is simply an extremely specific series of events which allows the main villian of the Text, Lord English, to exist, take pleasure in his wanton destruction, and then die and be reborn all in a circuitous loop. Sure, the kids “Stop” Lord English in the end, but their Victory is more defined by their escape from their terrible, dire, and tragic situation. They enter their “Roles” by way of Sburb, which is symbolised by a House. A human house, a troll house, it doesn’t matter. It ends with them escaping through the door never to be truly seen in the comic again. They finally leave The House, and by House I mean the Narrative, which for the purposes of this examination is essentially interchangeable with Lord English himself, because in truth that’s what he represents. 
Lord English is the main villian of homestuck, but what he represents is a core theme of understanding the story. Lord English’s character design is essentially made to be a charicature of Andrew Hussie himself, the worst, most vulgar and horrible parts of his prior works. Gamzee, shitty clowns, Equius: Horses, Dirk, the narcissism and stuckupishness of his own narration, and Caliborn. The “Tortured Artist” who complains that “Internet Teens” don’t understand his “Masterpiece”. Sound familiar? But he also represents the Narrative itself. The awful cycle which the characters are subjected to suffer in. the Lord of Time itself is a classpect which means “One who Controls Time, One who controls Others with Time, and One who controls Endings, the wrapping up of plot threads, and Certainty” Which is exactly what the Alpha Timeline is. Lord English is representative of a DM, or storyteller who insists that everything must be done THEIR way, who is rigid and controlling about what they WANT to happen being what HAS to happen and any deviation of the sort will either be not allowed or punished. Therefore, the villian representing this shows a core theme and belief of the story. That controllers and rigid authoritarian storytellers are something evil. Theyre the bad guys here. On the flip side, The Rigid Authour’s nemesis in the end is the Muse of Space, Calliope. Someone who “Inspires others with her Creations, Inspires Creation, or Is inspired By creation, expansion, worldbuilding, and co-operation.” She is a caricature of the Fandom. Who desires collaboration and working together. This is a core element of SBURB, that a good session (Which in and of itself borrows themes from both GAMES and STORIES) can only happen from a collaboration and understanding between individuals. This is a core element of the Epilogue. 
Now, to understand how this all ties into the Epilogue, it first needs to be understood how fucking Meta homestuck is, and WHY the Narrative is the villian. It’s because, for a story to happen, the characters must suffer. Endure drama, heartache, weird adventures. Because otherwise there would be no story. Kevin from Home Alone gets left behind every year. If he was a real child, he’d probably need therapy about that in his older years, but Kevin is not allowed to have a happy, non abandoned christmas, because then they wouldn’t be able to make any more Home Alone’s. So Kevin has to suffer for the Narrative to continue in its existence. Precisely the fact why Homestuck ended where we couldn’t see them walk through the door. If we were to see that, then they wouldn’t truly be free of the narrative because the sole ability for us to be able to witness that would mean they’re still trapped. This is why the credits are in the format of Snap Chat. It allows the audience to have a small window into their lives whilst showing they’ve truly escaped and are allowed to live like real people.
But here again comes our problem. For the Epilogue to exist as a compelling story, the characters would have to experience conflict for that to happen. But the Epilogue does something interesting. It formats it in the style of a Fan Fiction. Because whilst Homestuck plays with the ideas of how restricting a story would be if the characters were real people, the Epilogue plays with the idea of what is, and is not Real to a story in the first place. What can be considered “ Canon”, and does that really matter. In the Meat and Candy halves, as referenced by Dave later on in the Candy section, when you flip a coin, in the short instant before it falls the two offshoots of the result of that perfectly equal choice come to exist. This was the nature of Calliope asking John which he wanted to pick. By doing so, she gave the opportunity for an alternate version of himself to live where he would die and so forth. The John who ate the Meat may have died but by doing so allowed all of creation to continue. Even though he didn’t get what he thought he wanted, he died in a relationship with terezi after his life had meaning again. Candy john got what he wanted. A relationship with Roxy. He got to live. But these things, in the end were not what he’d hoped them to be. His other self got to be with terezi. The same is true for the other characters. Karkat lost the presidency in Meat, but in Candy he proved he’d make an excellent leader. In Meat, Davekat became canon, but in Candy dave lived to be romantically unfilfilled but he got to meet Obama and achieve an ultimate catharsis of the self.
But the thing is, these choices, in a sense ARE perfectly equal. There is no evidence in the Narrative, that one is inherently more Canon than the other, because it is directly stated that they both exist outside of Canon. If both exist outside of Canon but are not Fanon are they both True? Or is truth relative. I believe that the Epilogue was a way of seeing what reality would bring to these characters, whilst filling out two different paths. One where they got something and one where they didn’t. And this also comes to the sub plot of the battle of the two narrators. As Calliope mentions in Candy, when it becomes obvious that the speaker had an agenda you begin to wonder whether it simply came to light who the speaker was or if they had been using their subtle passive influence all along. We barely even notice in Meat, because Dirk’s typing quirk is identical to the quirk used by Andrew Hussie himself. Whether he is simply an alternate version of Dirk Strider in canon... up for debate. But this also begs the question. If the stories are outside of Canon, and the Authour can change, then who is the executive on saying what happens and doesnt? The Epilogues are explorations. Not closures, but exploring what would happen in situations. It offers the idea that anyone could narrate about a series of events happening outside of canon,and it would be just as feasible and valuable as anything else outside of Canon. Therefore... Your fan fictions have just as much narrative Truth as those, and if those had some truth at all then do yours also? Or if your own stories are false then so are they. These are not meant to be taken as the “missing link” of the end of Homestuck, but simply filling a gap where a prior hole has already been filled. The end of the story seemed to have the characters so briefly meet but here it was FILLED TO THE BRIM with dialogues. So take of it what you will, because in the end, what it meant by “Above the Line, All is true and below it is all things which are insignificant” means that literally whatever you imagine could happen has an equal chance of happening in another “Outside of Canon” timeline. But what it meant by “The Important and the Unimportant will never again meet” is that Homestuck itself will never explore these things. That was it. What happens next... Is up to all of you.
-The Knight of Breath
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