#i wanted it to be very important tho that in this version (unlike actual ouat) that eddie does not come from a place of royalty | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

wavemaker9 · 5 years

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So far I think Toni has like 4 potential ships for him? Remind me if I’m forgetting anyone but so far I think it’s just Cami, Mel, Gil, and Ivan who’ve gotten a focus on.

I also think I already touched on how Cami’s the best for Toni in the same way that Mel is for Austin and Ivan is for Kyle, so I prolly don’t need to go too deep into those two. I will say I had the thought the other day of like a need vs want thing with the three boy’s ships, and like. I think it was that Austin needs Mel but doesn’t usually want her right away, Kyle both wants and needs Ivan like right at the start, and like. Toni needs Cami a little but I do think he wants her more than he needs her. Mainly just cause like. We’ve discussed this in discord but not on here so basically for a written record, We were talking about Cami being a source of character development for Toni in GTA AU but then countered that because in GTA AU he really doesn’t develop any from his relay with Cami. He does for a little bit I guess but then regresses right back to normal because he’s a dumb idiot who learns nothing from his mistakes. It’s the same thing with the issue with Gil, he doesn’t come away from that going “I need to value and trust my friends more because we care about each other and I’ve known them long enough to not only recognize that, but /recognize it in a way that adjusts my behavior accordingly/”. He doesn’t. Like. If you talked him through the whole thing with Gil and Francis, you could get him to quickly admit he genuinely doesn’t believe there’s any way that Gil or Francis would, unprovoked, betray him. But then also be like “But technically there’s some way, so gotta be prepared.” HE’S THAT BATMAN LINE. THE DUMB ONE ABOUT “IF TEHRE’S A .1% CHANCE HE COULD BE OUR ENEMY WE HAVE TO TREAT THAT AS A 100% CERTAINTY!” Dumb idiot. I think it’s just that like. Because Toni wants to be prepared for everything so that he can handle everything, he has a hard time prioritizing probability over possibility. And that’s probably true in any AU but especially in ones like GTA where he has more to lose and has learned to be more paranoid. He knows the probability of Gil betraying him is like so small it’s basically 0%, but also Toni can think of ways that would force Gil to pick a side and have Toni be that losing side. Threatening Ludwig is the biggest one (and I’d assume there’d be an equivalent for Francis of “if someone threatened X if Francis didn’t betray me, he’d have to pick X”), but Toni probably also assuming that if it came down to a thing of picking Francis or him, Gil’d pick Francis. Similarly, Toni assumes Francis would pick Gil if Gil forced Francis’ hand, while not also considering the fact that if your two causes are “Francis would betray me if Gil made him” and “Gil would betray me if Francis made him” and you don’t have any other factor that would prompt either Francis or Gilbert to make that move to push the other in the first place, then those aren’t really possible/probable causes are they, Toni? Even if the other cause is “Someone threatened Ludwig/X to make Gil/Francis betray me, but he doesn’t want to fight me directly so he’s then convincing Francis/Gil to do it.” like. His independent mentality doesn’t even have him consider “They would come to me and the two of us could work out how to save Ludwig/X together.” He just assumes betrayal because that’s how shit works in Los Santos, and because he assumes betrayal even in the .1% chance this extreme event happens, he feels he has to be prepared for it and won’t fucking chill about it. And even when it’s pointed out to him “Do you realize how unrealistic this is,” that’s not what he cares about. He knows it’s unrealistic, but that doesn’t make it impossible. It’d be like always wearing a life jacket 24/7 in case your house floods. You can point out how unlikely the flooding is at any given time, but he’ll just counter “and then what if it happens and then I don’t have a life jacket????” Like I guess you’re technically prepared, sure, but at what cost. Ugh, Toni’s the worst, I can’t believe I took this character I liked the best out of my three and made him the worst in his inability to learn a goddamn lesson.

Similarly, GTA Toni doesn’t learn a goddamn thing from what happens with Cami either. He doesn’t learn to communicate better, he doesn’t learn to trust people and put more faith in their choices, he doesn’t learn not to lie needlessly. To him, it’s not a factor of “Things would be better if I HAD told the truth” and more “Things would be better if I’d BEEN ABLE to tell the truth” because he’s still in some dumb mindset of unintentionally not respecting Cami’s (or anyone’s, really) autonomy. He /couldn’t/ tell Cami the truth, he /couldn’t/ 100% trust Gil and Francis. Again, he’s not realizing that these were actual choices he made and are specifically his fault. They are what /had/ to happen because, given his own knowledge and no other input, they were the best option at the time and thus the only thing he could really do. Even after Cami snaps at him about how much his break up with her and everything hurt her, he laments factors that were outside of his control instead of recognizing the choices he made weren’t good. If only he hadn’t gotten into the crime business, if only he’d met Cami earlier in his life, if only X, if only Y, blah blah blah. He recognizes that he made things worse here, but it still feels to him like “cami would have been better off if she never met me or if she’d met me before I got into crime” vs “cami would have been better off if I’d treated her with more actual respect and not this romanticized old version of respect where I pull her chair out for her but don’t ask for her opinion on major life decisions”. All of it basically boils down to ‘this wasn’t solely on me because I did what I /had/ to do given the circumstances. Nevermind that I could have changed the circumstances by discussing /anything/ with /anyone/. *hanzo voice* I do what I must.’ I touched on this in the fic with him and Gil, but Toni leans on excuses a lot more than he likes to think he does. During mel’s fake death, he calls out Kyle for not planning ahead and being aware of the consequences his actions have until they’ve already happened, but Toni has the exact opposite problem of /always/ trying to plan ahead to a harmful level and only being aware of the connection any consequences that happen may have with his actions until he actually does the thing and then any mistakes were a flaw in fate itself really, he did his best.

Anyway, fuck, that was supposed to be 1 paragraph about the generic dynamic of cami and toni, not multiple trainwrecks about what a trainwreck I turned that boy into in GTA AU. Back to the point. A lot of that is lessened in the handful of other AUs where Cami and Toni end up together even briefly, so that’s good at least. I mentioned to Khep the other day the idea of a similar thing happening with Toni in Color Coded AU of him having an interest in Cami after meeting her thanks to investigating her for PRISM, but when seeing how truly kind she is, him trying to step back because, while he does value PRISM for the help it gave him with his powers, he recognizes it’s shady and manipulative towards coders at best and doesn’t want Cami involved in that world. PRISM keeps a close eye on every one of its heroes, even those that leave/retire if it can, and Toni probably believing that while Cami could stay under the radar if staying on her own, any serious involvement with him would put her more at risk of PRISM’s lasting attention and she doesn’t deserve them watching over her and possibly deciding when she should and shouldn’t join. But in that one, he’d actually talk to her. Instead of spending his YA years as an independent and pseudo-paranoid crime leader, he spends them in a large community and as the leader of a team where communication is key. This Toni /knows/ that it’s important to ultimately trust people with information in order to better protect themself, and the only reason he’d hide info from Cami while trying to break things off would be at the very start since it’d probably take a little effort to find a way to communicate with Cami where he could be sure PRISM wouldn’t be keeping tabs. In other more chill AUs he tends to be better about that shit, too. Firefly AU was brought up since that’s another Toni that learns to lie with priority, but they don’t really end up together in that one so agreeing with the point there fo it not being as much of a thing? Mel and Gil feel like bigger factors into his development there than Cami does. Honestly, I can’t remember many other AUs where they even interact let alone date, now that I think about it tho? There’s the one happy one where they’re both single parents but that always felt more like a focus on the interaction between the kids/kids+parents vs between the parents, like honestly the TonixCami factor there was definitely back burner whenever I thought about it. Ugh, there has to be other AUs, right? Okay and I just went through my page of AU/Xover lists and it seems like no. Wait OUAT, I forgot that, but that’s also a bad one but not my fault. God we really do need better AUs for them. But honestly there aren’t many AUs for any of these ships we’re here to talk about so I guess I’ll be as assuming here as for the others.

I do feel like a non-GTA and the like AU where Toni and Cami can end up together is good. I’m still standing behind what I said in discord the other day of like. Toni is not necessarily the best end for /Cami/ if the AU has anyone else like Cian in it. I’ll also add something new of like. Even though Cami is probably the best of the options so far for Toni, she’s not the /ideal/ match either. Which, tbf, the same is true for Austin and Mel, honestly? It falls back to the need vs want thing. Kyle lucked out and got someone who helps him better himself while also being the type of person he absolutely adores. Austin’s best option would be someone who challenges him similar to how Mel does, but in a more reserved way and someone he has a bit more in common with. Someone he could start off wanting, instead of learning to want after a long while. (That’s also part of why Aud is a better fit for Mel too, since Aud is a bit more open and accepting of challenges and such due to her past vs Austin who is really not here as much to be significantly challenged; Aud isn’t /looking/ for a challenge either exactly, but she won’t back away from one as quickly as Austin will). For Toni and his ideal, there’s obviously the thing of like. Usually a relay with Toni isn’t great for her either since it’s just. Their relationships always feel very romanticized but not super realistic? I could see them having a long term relay and being happy, especially in more chill/neutral AUs like the adopted family AU one, but I think it takes them both a medium to /long/ while to relax around each other. Which isn’t… the worst, but also, it just feels a little unhealthy having to try /to that level/ in a relationship. Like trying in a relay is good, trying to seem perfect in a relay isn’t so much, and it’d probably take a few years to a decade or so before toni starts to feel comfortable not trying to the max 24/7. And that’d be exhausting, and that’s for Toni who is used to and honestly lowkey thrives in a challenging environment, because Cami would in turn likely also feel the need to always be at her best regardless of Toni’s reassurances, and that’d be even worse for someone like her who is NOT already confident and believes herself as being at the best level already. Eventually they could settle into a really nice comfortable life together, and I think it’d be very good for both of them at that point, because they’re both very caring and passionate people at their cores, but it’d probably be rough to start off with.

Mel is next on the list and honestly a very good match for him, too, although probably not as challenging as he would need to key points. I’ll cover this more for Gil and Ivan later on but I picture Cami and Gil are better at challenging Toni in ways that he could use given his flaws, where as Mel is more middle ground and. God, Ivan. We’ll get to Ivan. With Mel, it’s not that she wouldn’t be capable of challenging him or anything. She’s honestly probably the most prepared for that and can probably shut down a lot of shit the first time she sees it and knows it’s bad. Toni doesn’t talk to her about something important and just does X thing and her confronting him immediately on it. Same with like the one fic I did for the rarepair thing. She sees he’s not honest about who he is and what he likes, and she talks to him right away to kind of address that and why it’s important to her that that change even a little if they’re going to stay together. Really, they are a good match in that they either compliment or contrast each other well. They’re both active worker types who enjoy fighting and such, and though there’d have to be some competition between them, I could imagine it being treated as more playfully competitive than full on “I have to be the best” aggressive. Toni’s more diplomatic and that helps Mel with socializing some times and kind of getting her to take a hot second when angry to calm down and think through her reactions so she doesn’t get too mad and make more enemies than friends. They really do work very well together when they try and it’s not like having each other wouldn’t help better them. Honestly the main reason I don’t move Mel up to the highest potential pairing is just that I don’t picture Mel as the sort that would inspire him to naturally want to change on anything that’s a major issue for him. Like he wouldn’t naturally want to fix the communication thing, he’d just see that mel doesn’t like this so he’d fix it. One of the things that causes Cami to appeal to him most is her being so nice and sweet leads to him trying to be a naturally nicer person and just genuinely care more about people. Tone down that pride and judgement and be more open minded and selfless. The other thing, as we’ll get into with gil, isn’t something he thinks he needs as much initially but would probably learn to recognize a need for more, and that’s just chilling the /fuck/ out for once and just having a breather. Again, he thrives on challenge and stuff, he loves putting 110% into everything if he can, but like. Just relaxing and being chill and not being the best is okay too? And that’s not like “do the work, take a nap, get back to work” that’s like “I don’t have to be prepared to defend my non-existent title on everything to impress people. I can just relax and be myself genuinely and it’s probably fine.”

So let’s just move onto Gil then since that’s the big pro when Toni gets to date him. Honestly, at least atm, I think Gil is the only person Toni ever knows that he feels like he can 100% relax with? Francis is close in most AUs, probably like 95% in more chill scenarios, but Gil has a much more natural way about him where he’s just so honest, it’s infectious to Toni. It really is why he likes Gil so much. Francis is arguably cooler and more fashionable and confident, but Gil seems to have this fucking ultimate zen thing going of owning who he is so completely which even Toni hasn’t mastered yet, and Toni thinks that’s the coolest. Great humor and confidence is a big factor into Toni befriending Gil so closely. Gil can always make Toni relax and laugh and forget his worries for a bit and Toni has such a chill genuine fun time when with Gil, and, again, for someone like Toni who feels like he has to try 110% minimum at all times, feeling comfortable in the moment enough to not feel like he has to impress and watch himself is really nice. Honestly? I feel like there are a lot of things Toni likes that he’s just kind of filtered out of his personality because of reputation, and it’s only when hanging out with gil or the full group that he’ll find himself doing that kind of shit again because he feels like he can get away with it more when with gil and/or francis. Like in a lot of AUs Gil’s probably the first one to get out of Toni that he does like being called Toño more, to the point of I don’t even know if Toni often fully realizes it until Gil gets him to stop and consider it. Like there’s just a lot of stuff like that where Toni doesn’t even think about it anymore. He found ‘Toni’ was the name people found easiest growing up (usually) in America, so he went with that until it felt like his preferred name. God, honestly I think there’s just a lot of Toni’s personality that might not really be his personality and who knows what is or isn’t at any given time? He probably doesn’t on a lot. I sure don’t, I’ve never had this boy down pat. Hell, there’s already the thing of him naturally wanting to swear a lot but training himself to cut that out so he really only does it around Francis and Gil. Like. Maybe dressing up in high business casual all the time is just something he’s convinced himself he likes? What if I say he actually hated tomatoes as a kid and just whoever his guardian is in each AU loved them and made them a lot so he eventually tricked himself into liking them?? I can do anything with this new power, incredible! But yeah, maybe that’s another factor of liking hanging out with Gil too is not just “oh I get to relax and enjoy things I don’t normally allow myself too” but also “sometimes I remember I enjoy things I haven’t done in years and that’s nice”. Fucking Gil one day just questioning “Hey how come you say ‘probably’ or ‘probably not’ a lot when I ask if you like a thing instead of just yes or no?” and then through a slow convo of having to break down toni’s answers because even toni doesn’t realize fully that he does this, that finally coming out and gil just baffled once things click. Gil showing up the next day with a bunch of foods from the store for toni to try and actually see if he likes them. Toni like I don’t think this is how it works, Gil. Gil teasing back ‘maybe you’ve just convinced yourself you don’t think this is how it works when the REAL toni would love my idea? It’s impossible to know!’ and toni just laughing but conceding, sure, yeah, sounds 100% legit and not at all bullshit, what’s first on your goofball buffet, bud?

Okay, distracted again, back to the point. Toni relaxing is good, but I think it’s better as a friendship thing longer term? Toni relaxing every once in a while is a good break, but his morals and priorities and such slip when he’s not careful. Which leads us to the last boy on the list, Ivan. ...Listen. I /love/ the compare and contrast factor between Toni and Ivan because they really do have a surprising amount in common for not seeming like they would at a glance. A couple of terrible smile boys, love them, /but also/. Not the greatest influences on each other. This is especially true in verses like GTA and Nationverse with baggage. Toni tries to be a better person and move past his bloody history, but given who he is, it requires a /lot/ of maintaining. And like the pro with Gil is that I think Gil would still mostly be a good enough influence where even while encouraging toni to relax more, he’d still be a more good than bad influence in almost any AU. Like even GTA, Gil is a chaotic good sort, and that’d be important. But Ivan is decidedly not in those sorts of AUs, and pairings between him and Toni have the potential for being the worst in those. GTA (and probably Nationverse too?), Ivan loves prying at that mask of Toni’s and so tries to instigate him more, that would lead to Toni then pushing back, and like. A long term relay between them in those AUs would be hard. You factor in that Toni’s trust issues are worse in those and his darker instincts are way stronger from his history + Ivan also probably very similar on a lot of those points too and also just has not learned to respect human life at all tbh? Toni’s trying to respect human life, but yknow sometimes it’s hard???? (anyone else: I find it’s not hard at all not to murder people. I often go long periods of time without killing anybody! | toni and ivan: we all have our draughts) I just picture in those AUs they are too much of a chaotic force when together and it would be damaging for themselves and/or others. Plus the idea came up once between Avi and I of the GTA fling between them becoming more romantic but god you’d have to find the perfect storm to really make that happen to be honest? It’s not /impossible/ but it’s very unlikely. Toni doesn’t trust ivan enough to let himself become that close to him really, and if he couldn’t allow himself to let down his walls for cami, it’d be damn fucking hard to get him to do it for ivan in turn. He’d pull himself back before he did, and that could be another factor of ivan trying to pry at toni and see how much he can push him, see if he can pull him back in, but that would just further sour any possibility of an actual romantic relationship. In better AUs where they aren’t both bad kids, it’s a little more possible, but I still think even then, they wouldn’t be /great/ influences on each other. Definitely better! They both learn to try and be on better behavior, but. yknow. The bar was set low; there’s only so many AUs that aren’t better than gta au.

#ignore this #the boss kid #amusing muse musings #hey you au #crossovers! unlimited crossovers!

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