#i'm not treating them as Important Canon Nonbinary Rep because even though i use they/them for them

[everysongineverykey]

i dunno it kinda bothers me sometimes to see characters who are referred to with they/them pronouns in games described as "ambiguously gendered" or "gender left unclear" or "gender unstated" by fans and stuff like. yeah absolutely they are sometimes that. sometimes the creator had a gender in mind for them while creating them and just didn't think to talk about it in the game. but also, like. sometimes characters can just be nonbinary? and it makes me kinda sad that everyone's first reaction to they/them pronouns in games is "oh, they have a binary gender, it's just up to the player/not stated in-game".

#this is just something i was thinking about #after reading the ut localization book and seeing monster kid and onionsan described this way specifically #like. onionsan isn't really a big deal to me. they're just never talked about in the game. #i'm not treating them as Important Canon Nonbinary Rep because even though i use they/them for them #they're not canonically Anything. #monster kid is sort of the same deal? undyne uses they/them for them #and while it could be argued that she doesn't know them you could also argue they sneak out to follow her a lot #she could've met them before. #eh. it's a non-issue in this case really. at least they didn't describe napstablook that way #but honestly why are they so scared of saying 'nonbinary'. it's clear that that's what napstablook is #with the 'theirself' and all that #which. singular themself/theirself is not a word you see often in media at all! #it certainly wasn't when undertale came out! that was a pretty uncommon word in games! #so props to toby for featuring the first singular themself i ever saw in media and making me go 'woah' #but anyway. if you're curious. the lol book simply says #'the game refers to napstablook as 'them' not 'him' or 'her'' #which. yeah! they're a them! but why do you act like this is some sort of narration quirk #and not just. a character being nonbinary. #i think that became pretty clear when the first few rounds of the undertale art book #came out and used he/him for them #but then someone asked toby about the pronoun difference #and he called them all back and changed their pronouns to they/them in the book once again. #honestly i. only vaguely remember hearing that so if someone has sources i'd love to see them #but like. why can't characters be nonbinary. why can't people just say nonbinary. it's not a scary word.

[datastate]

Hello! I just read your post regarding the Hollow Knight fandom and I found it really insightful and important. I’m very new to the fandom and it has really helped me contextualise how fans act within it. One thing I do want to ask you though is, I myself am nonbinary and trans (in that I identify as nonbinary, but am transitioning) and even though I have always referred to the vessels as they/them, I’ve noticed a lot of other nonbinary and trans people use gendered pronouns for the vessels - typically he/him - and say they do to help them see/feel representation of their gender identity in characters they like - (Something similar to headcanoning Bakugou as trans). I wanted to know your thoughts on this? Thanks!

regarding this post

as i said in the post, the vessels aren't... great nonbinary rep, admittedly. there's a good post going over it by matt / cerkowah here. a specific point i'm going to draw on is that the vessels are somehow inherently nonbinary (or, 'genderless') rather than it being an active choice - this leads to people believing it's just fine projecting or giving them an identity. (an issue in how nonbinary characters are generally regarded, but exemplified because of TC's (unintentional?) continued association "you're born as []" - completely excluding the trans part)

however, fact is, this is nonetheless nonbinary rep. erasing their intended identity is a completely different situation than hcing a binary character as trans

with binary characters, the idea that they are trans doesn't... change the fact they're a man or woman, you know? in the bakugo example, you'd still hc him as a trans man!

( the only time these trans hcs wouldn't align with the way they're presented in-canon is if you'd hc them as nonbinary* (which is fine because... you're helping give some space for people who probably didn't even cross the developers minds) OR you hc their portrayed state (ex. man) being trans of the other binary (ex. trans woman) which leads into a lot of extremely negative stereotypes and is better to be avoided altogether. )

*nonbinary (using this as a term, not a specific label; inc. agender, genderfluid, demigirl, etc.)

nonbinary characters on the other hand aren't often shown in media, or ever considered by binary trans people. nonbinary people are often othered in various ways, taken as blank slates for binary people to project upon, or if they are a 'main character' (as was the case with frisk from ut) they are supposedly meant to reflect the player's (assumedly binary) gender which is just... wrong. while there are main characters who have little personality, only serving as a vessel for you to explore the world through, this is not the case with frisk and ghost! while they are portrayed as mute, they obviously have distinct personalities! you cannot pretend they are only a reflection of the player to excuse the misgendering of them.

so, leading from that, am i SURE it's not misgendering to use they/it/neopronoun sets when referring to binary characters? yeah, it's not misgendering. they/them sets are still treated as if they're grammatically inappropriate when referring to people, and it'd be a miracle to get through to some people that there are neopronoun sets that have been around for longer than they've been alive. as i said in the paragraph of hcing binary characters as nonbinary, it is a case of finding rep where the media provides none. no case of casual "this person uses they/them" as binay trans people are allowed, let alone being recognized as nonbinary and the identities which fall under this term.

in the post i made it clear that there are nonbinary people who don't strictly use "gender neutral" pronouns (they/it/neopronoun sets) - that they aren't indicative of gender identity - however! they're still a primary indicator. even if you are nonbinary and you use he or she sets, and you wish to give this to the vessels we see in game... it's misgendering. team cherry made an active choice to switch from using he/him for the knight to they/it, and refusing this is 1. getting rid of what little nonbinary rep there is and 2. making a hostile space for nonbinary people other than yourself! it doesn't matter how many times you insist you're only trying to let them 'choose [their] identity' or that you're projecting your own trans / nonbinary experience, on a surface level you are making other nonbinary people distrust you. no meta, no headcanons, nothing else. this is just courtesy for other nonbinary people to not misgender what little rep we do have. do what you will with your vessel ocs, that's your own creation! but please have the decency to let "gender neutral" pronouns be acknowledged without challenging them at every encounter. it gets very tiring.

the ONLY possible exception to this projection that i can think of, is if you believe the (canon) vessels, due to their trauma, have DID and you're referring to an alter. however, i'd personally suggest you still keep to they/it sets - or let the alter use no pronouns at all. there are disclaimers you'll have to make if you use he or she sets for alters, but it's better to do that (and warn for it) for nonbinary people to have some reassurance, and do be sure to not purposefully misgender the host.

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TL;DR: please let nonbinary people have characters who use they/it sets, as there are so many other characters to look toward to imagine as binary trans people who already use he or she pronouns. it is courtesy to help create a more comfortable environment for nonbinary people who shouldn't have to read disclaimers every time you think about creating what, on a surface level, comes across as erasing their identity through replacing "gender neutral" pronouns.

if you or anyone else who comes across this has any questions, i'm still open for clarifying

#i hope this makes sense ;o; i'm very sleepy #hk posting #ask #stardust-tears #long post #misgendering mention