#i'm open to hear more knowledgeable p1/2 fans' thoughts on this

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Persona Q2 Problems: Lore-Summoning Discrepancy

Ok, so this is something that’s been bothering me for a VERY long time, it was something that caught my attention back when they were just advertising the game (if anyone is wondering, it was how the cognition worked in this game…and that questioned snowballed to say the least into what this was), but I wanted to wait till the game came out to talk about it (took really long cause I wasn’t sure how to approach it, I mean this thing came up as about 7ish pages in GoogleDocs so like....yeah 8U lotta writing). 

Before I begin, yes I know there are different ways to summon persona. Yes they can coexist in the same series, that isn’t the issue. The issue is how P5 and onward’s lore has been handled. I also wanted to do a complete replay of Arena, Ultimax (esp this one cause it’s a bit funky with the DH and red fog), and PQ1 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut due to events (aka me working despite Corona happening), I didn’t get around to it yet. So consider this a “version 1″ post, with the possibility of there being a “revised version” later. I also won’t really touch on P1/2 much (I’ll bring them up a few times), not because they aren’t important, but because this mostly pertains to PQ2 and the games associated with it.... as well as my sparse knowledge on P1/2 (so I’m sorry in advance if I mess something up while talking about those two games ;w;). We also aren’t talking about P3D, P5D, Royal or Scramble (maybe I’ll include Royal/Scramble in the possible revised/add on/sequel post to this but not now….cause spoilers….and PQ2 came before those so I’d rather focus on what built up to it rather than what comes after).

Also yeah some of this will contain a theory (the theory parts is me trying to reconcile canon and it’s at the end of the post, the rest is me pointing at a hole in the canon/lore tho.... so no this isn’t a glorified theory post, I’ll point out when I’mma enter my minor theory). Anyway, under the cut cause length! 8U:

So first we’re gonna start off with a question. At one point my bf asked me “What dictates why the characters summon the way they do in their games?” To which I replied, after thinking about it for a decent minute, “Setting......maybe with some god interference but it’s usually cause they created that setting, so really it’s just the setting.” If we look at all the games, they all summon things a bit differently (P1/2 being the closest in similarity, with P4 being the closest to them among the newer titles), but what also is different in each game is the setting. 

P1 does a Jojo summon cause of a Parallel world, P2 does Jojo poses thanks to the rumors, P3 uses evokers (but otherwise they can just make it appear if they concentrate hard enough, or if you are a VR attendant then you use cards) thanks to the Dark Hour (DH), P4 uses cards (but like P3, can sometimes just summon without manifesting a card similar to P3’s evoker-less summons and P1/2 summons) thanks to the TV World (TVW), and P5 uses their masks thanks to the Metaverse. 

So next (2) question(s).....What would happen if you take one team and put them in another teams’ world? How would they summon their persona’s then? Well.....it depends on the setting, but spoiler for the rest of the post....they would either use cards/no cards (ala P4 style, from here on I’mma just say “card style” but keep in mind cards may or may not be utilized), or have a PT outfit/mask summon (aka P5 style). OR, if they are struggling and have an evoker on hand, then they’d use an evoker (but not if it’s in the Metaverse). So to use an evoker, they’d have to struggle with summoning in a P3ish type area (which keep in mind is similar to a P4 type area), and if they aren’t struggling then the default would be P4 type summoning (I mean they could still use the evoker if you want, but the card style is the default tbh). Oh yeah there’s a lot to unpack there. You see, P3/4 can exist together without issues, P5.....can’t.....with either of them…..At least not without certain rules being established in a setting, and then ALL THREE having to follow those rules. (Tbh it feels like the P5 era/PQ2 specifically, they seem to prioritize iconography over logic. Aka “Well P3 used evokers because they are P3!” rather than looking at the implications of the world they are utilizing and instead prioritizing something the audience will recognize rather than following the rules they have built.)

Ok so I know I just threw a ton of facts at you, so let’s backtrack and explain how I know these are facts by going through the games (cause I know you can’t just take my word for it)!

Now, how do P3/4 work well together? It’s simple.....the DH and TVW are similar (TVW is a more...”potent” DH and makes it easier to summon things), well similar in feel as Arena states:

Ok so they are similar in feel, and tbh the means of being able to summon a Persona is similar too! P3 kids don’t NEED evokers, it’s proven that characters can summon a Persona without a need of an evoker in both the DH and Real World (ex: Labby in Arena when escaping the lab, Mitsuru in The Answer flashback, Fuuka in Arena iirc, Takaya all the time in P3, Chidori when her Persona tried to kill her, and possibly Tatsuya/other P2 characters prior to the rumors going rampant during the P2 game), HOWEVER it’s very hard to do so. It usually requires intense concentration, or a rush of emotion or a life/death situation (which all examples fall under one or both). The evoker is designed to help facilitate this life/death feeling (*cough* tho it takes the shape of a gun cause Mitsuru thought it’d catch Akihiko’s attention*cough* I mean Koro doesn’t need it being a gun so the shape could be whatever they just chose a gun so they could seduce Akihiko 8U). But regardless, the evoker is a man made tool that helps one summon a Persona (aka creates an artificial focal point), but it’s not a natural focal point made by the user (ie, card, clutching your head/no card/possibly P1&P2 style, or P5′s mask), so really anyone can use an evoker. (one more side tangent since we’re on focal points, as for how P4 can have two different ways of summoning, ie card/no card, it could just be that the TVW allows different forms of a natural focal point to form, either via thinking of summoning the Persona, or having your mind form a physical card in front of you, so the setting of the TVW gives a choice to the user)

Now remember when I said that the TVW is a DH that’s easier to summon Personas? Or that if a user isn’t struggling then the default is the card/P4 style summoning and not the evoker? Well Arena showcases how easy it is to summon in the TVW:

So there we go, it’s easier to summon in the TVW than the DH. Can’t argue with that! The reason is probably because DH is a layer on top of the Real World, so it’s closer to reality, while the TVW is closer to the Collective Unconscious/aka CU (aka the TVW is an alternate world, rather than a camera filter like the DH is), so that could explain why it’s easier. 

So what have we established so far?:

DH and TVW are very similar, but TVW is probably more is closer to the CU than the DH (while the DH is closer to reality), which makes it easier to summon in the TVW. 

Evokers can be used by anyone because they are a man-made tool, but they aren’t natural ways of summoning like show cased in P1/2/4/5. 

P3 cast can summon Personas like P4 cast, and theoretically vice versa is probably possible if they ever gave the P4 cast evokers.

Now from Arena, we will go to PQ1, then Ultimax, then briefly on P4D before we get to P5. (I’m doing PQ1 before Ultimax because I’m doing the it in the order of the JPN release not the US release, and no I’m not counting the arcade Ultimax release 8U)

So let’s look at PQ1. Now from my memory....I don’t recall them really talking about the P3 cast specifically not being able to summon their personas without their evoker in the PQ1 world. Like they talk about their differences in summoning, but I don’t think the P3 kids tried to summon without their evokers. And the reason I bring this up, because we could probably say this is a discrepancy too, is because the P4 kids still use their card style, which means the PQ1 world is similar to the TV world, where it’s easier to summon via using the cards. And since the P3 kids can use the card style, in a setting that allows card styles…..that means they could summon the same way the P4 kids can in PQ1! But the P3 kids don’t have the same thought process as they did in Arena, where “oh we summoned our personas without our evokers! Only just thinking about it!” And like....that’s a red flag....BUT, as I said before, evokers and cards can exist at the same time. In Arena/ Ultimax the human P3 users (minus maaaybe Junpei) use their evokers when doing a finisher. So we could just chalk it up to them being used to it out of habit. It also helps that Arena was released not long before PQ1, so we know they can both exist at the same time thanks to prior knowledge. So like yeah there’s a tiny issue here, but nothing glaring or a very big deal, it’s just them avoiding addressing something rather than creating a contradiction. Maybe in a remake they’ll add a line saying “huh that’s weird, still gonna use my evoker cause we’re used to it.” XU And it’d be all good.

Now Ultimax is a little.....more concerning. Technically there’s a dark hour....but you can summon without your evoker (and also they call the Fake!Dark Hour F!DH taking place in the “real world”):

Now I can’t remember the rest of Ultimax to that specific of a detail, so I dunno if they 100% explain why/how the F!DH it’s easier to summon than the DH, but they really seemed to hint at the red fog in these early scenes (where I rewatched to get the screen grabs), with it having some influence and possibly being the culprit behind the anomaly (I’d say the same thing for the TVW, but Teddie says Shadows have been there since forever, and Izanami only found the TVW not created it, she did bring the fog, so it’s possible the fog isn’t what dictates summoning in the TVW just TVW as a place, but in Ultimax the combination of the red fog and the F!DH makes the setting more palpable like the TVW rather than the original DH. So yeah F!DH needs special fog to work, but TVW doesn’t really need for summoning to exist it seems). There’s also the fact...Kagutsuchi is also there and his power might also have something to do with this cause, remember at the beginning I said sometimes there’s a god messing with the place to make that setting viable for summoning Personas? Yeah that’s probably what’s going on. Red Fog+Special DH+Kagu’s influence=TVW levels of card/natural summoning. Not the cleanest, but hey they at least tried giving us a reason! I’m at least happy for that! ;w;

So after briefing on the small issues (or just plot questions with PQ1/Ultimax), now for P4D. P4D it’s possible to summon your persona like in the TVW, but you can’t fight. So you instead dance to defeat your enemies.... So the area is similar to the TVW, BUT it has special rules (implemented by the god, so yeah a little god influence on the setting, but still the setting nonetheless is what dictates the summoning). Yeah that’s it, but it just strengthens the setting dictates stuff. 

So again, to reiterate what we know:

If a place is like the TVW, then card summoning is the default. 

DH and TVW are similar, but DH is a….”less palpable” TVW (probably cause it’s farther from the CU), so while card summoning is possible, it’s better to use the tool/evoker to help you. 

The F!DH, PQ1 world, and Midnight Stage are all similar to the TVW so card summon is the default. 

Evokers can be used in card summon settings, but they aren’t needed. 

Anyone can use an evoker

So....let’s get to P5. P5 has the Metaverse, which has A LOT of distortion and cognition. I mean it’s possible that P1-4 have some cognition, but the Metavers is just…..there’s an abundance! Anyway, we know that P5 has outfits because it protects the user against the world (kinda like the TVW glasses, but unlike those, they aren’t a tool anyone can just.....use. Teddie makes the TVW glasses, PT outfits come with the summons). But they only get their cool outfit once they obtain their personas (either via fully or partially awakening their Persona, the persona has to at least be awakened). Thus the Persona is connected to the outfit, and the outfit is connected to the environment/setting. I should note that unlike the above screenshots, which are explicitly stated in the lore, this is implicitly stated instead. Something that isn’t outright said, but it’s backed up via consistency and repeating it (also this is the first consistent thing I found in P5! Yay! ;w;)

Anyway, it makes sense right? And without the need for an evoker (which...causes issues thanks to that world’s rules on guns), it seems that the natural way for summoning in a Metaverse-like setting, is a mask summon.

Ok. Now what’s the issue with PQ2?! 4-5ish pages in and still no answer I know. Well the answer is all three can’t exist at the same time. P5 can’t compliment either P3/4. Either P5/4 has to adapt to P3’s way of summoning, P5/3 have to adapt to P4′s way of summoning (aka everyone needs an evoker or everyone card summons), or P3/4 have to adapt to P5 (aka everyone gets an outfit and mask summons).  And here’s why:

We know P3/4 characters in a TVW like place can summon their personas like P4 kids. So it doesn’t matter what game you are from, if you are in the TVW you summon like the P4 kids. P5, if one has a persona in a Metaverse they should have an outfit, because P5 vanilla establishes that (again it’s implicit but nonetheless it’s established). So P3/4 kids should get an outfit if they were in the Metaverse because it’s the only logical thing that makes sense (aka this isn’t confirmed by Atlus, but by following the logic of their lore, the explicit content, and the implicit content, it leads to this conclusion). 

The issue is…. PQ2 tries to apply DH’s, TVW’s, and the Metaverse’ rules all at the same time.....that doesn’t work. While DH and TVW complement each other, TVW becomes the default if the two are combined. “But Silly you said that P3 cast can use Evokers in the TVW” Yes! But you see PQ2 doesn’t understand that....Because..... Minato couldn’t summon his Persona when he lost his evoker and had to rely on Aigis the entire time:

From what I can find, he’s never shown summoning his persona (even in a life/death situation, which is also odd in and of itself and a whole other issue) during this time. I don’t think it’s ever mentioned it’s because he’s tired, just because he lost his evoker. Except this shouldn’t be the case, because P4/5 can summon just fine WITHOUT an evoker, so an evokerless summon should be possible. And that’s the issue with PQ2 that PQ1 avoided, PQ1 didn’t call attention to this, while PQ2 made this a plot point and...well...made a really big plot hole (and a side plot hole with the whole life/death thing).

 Then there’s the DH and the Metaverse. Now Atlus was trying to fix the gun and evoker issue that well…..was created because of….(what is what got this post rolling) “Cognition.” Cause the Metaverse is like “If the gun looks real then it’s perceived as real! Even if it’s a fake gun.” And well….evokers are real guns who have been hollowed out (in english releases they changed it to fakes tho, but they are actually real guns). And well evokers and the Metaverse don’t mix well, and we’d have a lot of headless SEES. So Atlus tried to be like “Oh it just doesn’t work here!” But…….that reasoning doesn’t work, because the PT still have their outfits, and Mona is still in mascot form, which exists because of….you guessed it…”cognition”. And because of all that it leads to these questions:

Does this mean there’s a specific quantity of Cognition that needs to be met for there to be outfits but for fake guns not to work?

So how can there be enough cognition to dictate that they can have outfits but NOT guns?

How can Mona still be in his cognitive cat form at the lobby, but the rest of the team reverts back to their normal clothes despite both being connected to? He’s only ever in that form when the other teams are in their PT form (only time he isn’t is in PQ2’s lobby, and the early PVs of P5 which never appeared in the game)

Why doesn’t the P3/4 cast have PT outfits, despite the fact having a persona in a cognitive world indicates a PT outfit (at least implicitly via P5 vanilla)? 

Basically how is it that the P5 Kids are the only ones that seem to be affected by the Cinema’s World Cognition but no other groups are? Answer, there is no answer, it just doesn’t make any sense! And that’s just P3 and P5!

Now we have Metaverse vs the TV World. While they are both natural means of summoning, they can’t coexist at the same time. They are like night and day, they can’t exist at the same time in the same place. If there is that much cognition in the Cinema world, then everyone should get an outfit! Otherwise they’d just use cards! You have to choose one!

“But Silly! What if it’s how they obtained their personas? Like maybe the way P5 got theirs is why they are special?” And…...that’s the thing dear reader….that’s not the case. Because let me introduce my Smoking Futaba Cannon! You know what Futaba has in common with the P4 group? THE SAME KIND OF AWAKENING! Her awakening is different from EVERY OTHER P5 CHARACTER! Her awakening is the same as the P4 kids! She accepts her shadow, and gets her persona! But do you know two things are different between Futaba and the P4 kids? 1) The setting, and 2) She gets an outfit! :0 Oh dear, she gets an outfit….and…..the only thing different from the P4 kids is the setting? Wow it’s almost as if….the setting dictates how you summon a persona! :D So because Futaba, who’s awakening is a P4 awakening, gets an outfit. Then ALL P4 kids, who have a P4 awakening, now get an outfit when they are in the Metaverse! But wait! Remember how P3 was able to easily change to the P4 style of summoning? Well since P3 is similar to P4 in this sense, and P4 is similar to Futaba, who has a PT outfit…..then P3 would get an outfit as well! You get an outfit! You get an outfit! EVERY PERSONA USER GETS AN OUTFIT! 8D 

So what do we know now?

DH and TVW are similar, but if combined then the TVW rules overrule the DH rules

The DH seems to be closer to reality, while TVW and Metaverse seem to be closer to the UC which is why it’s easier to summon in the latter two.

The F!DH, PQ1 world, and Midnight Stage are all similar to the TVW so card summon is the default. 

TVW and Metaverse can’t coexist at the same time (one has to overrule the other)

Evokers most likely can’t work in the Metaverse the same way they can in DH or TVW. 

Evokers can be used in card summon settings (aka TVW) tho, but they aren’t needed. 

Anyone can use an evoker (or have Teddie glasses 8U)

Only Persona users (either fully awakened or partially) can obtain a Metaverse/PT outfit.

Awakening doesn’t define how you summon Persona, the setting does (see Futaba vs P5 and compared to P4).

Because of Futaba, P4 kids should get outfits in the Metaverse.

And because of Arena and how the P3 kids have the same summoning in the P4 setting, it goes to say they’d also get outfits in the Metaverse too.

If reverse engineer this, then that’d mean P5 kids would get cards in a TVW-type setting (or would have to use evokers in a DH type setting).

I spent way too much time on this

It all comes together! Nice and neat! Arena establishes that you get a card summon when you are in a setting like the TVW, and P5 establishes that Persona users get PT outfits in the Metaverse (with Futaba showcasing  it doesn’t matter how the awakening goes down you still get an outfit, which applies to P3/4). So, if the setting is like the Metaverse, they get outfits. If the setting ISN’T like the Metaverse, BUT INSTEAD, like the TV world, they do card summons. There the lore is nice and neat and clear cut!

…..EXCEPT! PQ2 …...just….makes no sense. ;w; It messes with all that is good and neat. ;w; And why? I don’t know! I can only think that, again, they chose the iconic looks of each game over the lore’s logic. Even if they were to say Enil made it so that the three types of settings could exist at the same time, it’s just…..too messy and wishy washy, and still doesn’t logically make sense (because of everything explained above). You can’t just mix water and oil! It’s just easier to choose a Metaverse or TVW type setting. 

Now how do we fix PQ2? This is something Atlus can fix in a re-release on like the Switch, and it shouldn’t be too bad depending on how they approach it. But before I get to that I’m going to explain a theory, this theory makes it easier to break down the different settings, and thus gives Atlus a nice binary choice.

My theory is that there’s a cognition spectrum in these settings. Real life has the lowest to non existing cognition, the P1/2/3/4/4U1/4U2/4D/Q1 are all on the “low cognition” side (there’s some but there’s not a lot) while the Metaverse is “high cognition” (aka there’s a lot). Like here’s a rough (aka not 100% accurate, it’s just a general idea) depiction of what I mean:

Again it’s just a general idea on where they fall in terms of high and low cognition. P5 is obvie a new entry with us now exploring high cognition, which can lead to maybe a couple cool things. Maybe different places on the high cognition spectrum give us different ways of summoning too (give me a sec for a side tangent to explore that concept). Here’s an example, we have one high cognition plane called the “Metaverse” and another one called “Uverworld.” In the Metaverse you get a PT outfit, and summon with a mask. In the Uverworld, instead you take on your Persona’s appearance, either Digimon Frontier style or Digital Devil Saga style. We could say the Uverworld has even more cognition/distortion than the Metaverse and that’s why it’s different. And if any persona user from P1-5 were to summon their persona in the Uverworld, they’d summon it the same way as the Uverworld Persona users. And the Uverworld Persona users would summon the same way as say P4/5 depending on if they were in the TV World or Metaverse. This is how we can keep the lore consistent.

Now how does this high and low cognition apply to PQ2, and how could it have fixed it (and still could if Atlus makes these changes in a remake/re-release)? Well basically….they’d have to choose between a TV World type setting or the Metaverse, and have all three teams adjust accordingly! And they can either do what I call low asset route or a high asset route (which coordinate with low and high cognition respectively). 

A low asset route, would’ve worked better for the original release on the 3DS (but I don’t recommend this for Switch re-release tho). It’d be that the PQ2 world operates like the TV World, everyone uses cards. That’d mean no one would get PT outfits (so less assets to make for the devs, and yes this includes P5 kids). Morgana, however, would have to remain in cat form (which shouldn’t be a problem, if we can give a dog a knife we can give a cat a knife 8U you can even have his character stats reflect something similar to Koromaru for the meta too!). P3 could still use their evokers if they want too! P5 the kids would probably crush the cards doing a similar pose they’d make if they had a mask, but tbh PQ doesn’t really show the characters in battle so we wouldn’t really need to worry that much. 

Or we could go with a high asset route (which I recommend for a re-release), in which there’s high cognition, aka the Cinema world is more like the Metaverse. Everyone would get an outfit, and cause it’s the metaverse you can introduce a gun mechanic into PQ2! It’d require more assets, making outfits for all the characters (tho keep in mind Mona should transform back into a cat and out of his outfit in the lobby like everyone else!) Which we’d probably really only see in cutscenes rather than battle. While this could complicate some scenes (such as Hamuko dressing up as a police officer-wait that scene already doesn’t make sense considering P5’s lore-no no stay on topic DX), the rewrites wouldn’t be as as if you took the low asset route (which would work if thought of from the beginning but….yeah). It’d just be a few convo lines, and like a scene or two. One big thing they could add is adding the gun mechanic (they can even add a fun convo with the P3 kids saying it’s hard getting used to the new summoning method). Fans would love to see outfits for P3/4 kids, lore would make sense, you could have funny conversations, new combat system. Def a thing people would love to see added into a re-release! Plus it gives it more of a P5 flair, and considering this has P5 as the main focal point it fits! You can even say that the 3DS ver is still canon, but it was an incorrect recollection of a character’s dream, which could explain the inconsistencies I have mentioned before. 

Oh and Minato/SEES can still carry their evokers in both scenarios, but Minato just gets tired from all the fighting and can’t summon his Persona anymore cause he ran out of mana. There that fixes that scene.

So there you go, PQ2 fixed (well summoning lore wise), Persona lore intact, and even a little guideline thrown in to help keep the lore intact! I know I didn’t go into how to rewrite every scene to adjust these changes….I could but not today. 

Anyway I dunno how else to end it but…...I hope PQ1/2 can be ported to the Switch (or another console as well?) soon! I just really want a dub of PQ2 ;w; orz

#persona 5 #persona 4 #persona 3 #persona q2 #persona 2 #persona 1 #tagging p1/2 cause you guys are mentioned and while I don't go in depth on it as much #i'm open to hear more knowledgeable p1/2 fans' thoughts on this #persona lore #persona analysis #persona problems #persona q2 problems