#it just strikes me as an especially cruel argument when antis try to do this

[wander-wren]

here’s my thing about proshipping, particularly in regards to the “well you can write that stuff to process trauma, but don’t fucking post it” argument. and i’m really just repeating what many, many others have said, but bear with me.

i don’t have sexual trauma (which is, 99% of the time, what this argument is about), so i can’t speak to that directly, but i do have traumas and coping mechanisms that some people think weird or off-putting or gross. i’m also someone who needs to talk about things with some kind of audience in order to process, whether that’s my therapist or my friends or—get this—fanfic readers. often, all three! max processing, baby!

but i’ve had people avoid responding when i bring certain things up, or outright say they can talk to me about some of my ~problems~, but not Those Ones. which is fine on its face, everyone is entitled to boundaries and in many cases they may simply not know what to say.

but it is deeply isolating to feel like there is a part of you unfit for public view. especially a part of you that you still want (need) to talk about in order to come to terms with it. so i can only imagine how it feels for some of the people arguments like these are attacking.

as long as there are warnings (and YES, “choose not to warn” is, in itself, adequate warning), there is no reason why any aspect of the human experience should have to be permanently hidden and undiscussed, no matter how uncomfortable its existence might make some random on the internet.

#wren wrambles #spicy midnight moment #proship #pro fiction #not gonna cross tag it even tho i want to #not that anyone needs a reason to write anything you can do whatever you want forever #BUT #it just strikes me as an especially cruel argument when antis try to do this

[patrick-weeks]

Dear Family, You’re Being Manipulated

PREFACE: If you are a family member I IMPLORE you to read this in its entirety. Yes, I know it’s long, but I think if you have the time to release your relentless judgement on my mother, you have ten minutes to listen to the other side. You don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. Period.  I want you to read this in order to LISTEN, and COMPREHEND—NOT so you can figure out how to rebut. If you are a friend, this will be a bit TMI for you, but I can’t stop you from reading it. Continue with discretion if you decide to read.

I was going to hold off making this post until after the holidays to spare any family reading this from negative emotions during a supposedly happy time of the year, but when Abby, my TEN YEAR OLD sister is sobbing in the bathroom because her grandmother texted her and called her a “nasty little girl” on Christmas Eve, that’s not something I feel is possible anymore.

SHORT VERSION OF PART I and II: (again, if you are a family member, PLEASE read the full parts).

Tommy has been abusive to my mother, my sister, and I for as long as I can remember. He is a manipulative narcissist. He used money to manipulate us, and the household was always extremely toxic. After the divorce, he claimed he wanted to rebuild our relationship. I foolishly bought into it, but it was all insincere and manipulative, I later found out.

SHORT VERSION OF PART III:

I moved out/was kicked out of the house due to a verbal altercation between Tommy and I, where he admitted he didn’t believe he did anything wrong, proving his attempt to rebuild a relationship was founded on lies. My mother and her fiancé came to pick me and Abby up, and we left that night.

PART I: Background

As many of you know, my mother (Julie) separated from Tommy Weeks in July, causing quite a stir within both sides of the family, and within my sister and I. My mother had been realizing the necessity of this split for years, but wasn’t financially stable enough to do so and was in perpetual denial . However, after acquiring a new job and some soul searching, she made the decision.

I was immediately happy about this decision. I have had a terrible relationship with Tommy for my entire life. He has been physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive to me for all of my childhood and adolescence. This includes, but is NOT limited to:

- constant screaming, name calling, and degradation all throughout childhood (Age 4-18)

- several instances of aggressively striking my face, usually more than once at a time (Age 6-13)

- sitting me down to tell me directly “I don’t like you” (Age 9)

- multiple instances of degrading me about my weight in ways that were NOT constructive(Age 11-13)

- telling me during a car ride that “I’m not important” (Age 15)

- choking/strangling me against a wall to the point of light-headedness (Age 15)

- body slamming me onto hard wood flooring after a long physical struggle due to a verbal altercation that escalated into violence (Age 16).

These are only the most significant things I can remember off the top of my head that have stuck with me into adulthood. The abuse was chronic, and is PERFECTLY described by this post entitled “The narcissist playbook.” Read if you would like to further understand the kind of emotional and psychological abuse, manipulation, and degradation that occurred in the household:

https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/a916w9/the_narcissist_playbook/

The environment of the house was always one structured in fear. We had to walk on eggshells in order to never upset him. Him being upset meant verbal degradation and physical pain. You could never critique any action of his or he would get mad. He would combat any critique of his actions or character by reciting how much he does for us.  He used gifts and money to manipulate us. He would make us feel like a monetary burden, and would constantly guilt us of how much we cost him. If you had any problem with him, you were unappreciative for what he does for you or what he’s bought you. Money was always his biggest manipulative tool.

Now that that’s out of the way, I hope you can understand how toxic this household was. If he was like this to his son, you can only imagine what he was like towards his wife. I don’t believe there were any instances of physical abuse between the two, but there were absolutely years and years of verbal and emotional abuse towards my mother (again, perfectly described in the link above). I would not wish the amount of suffering she’s been through on anyone. But, due to everyone’s immature lack of understanding that there ARE two sides to EVERY story, my mom was judged relentlessly for her decision to divorce. Especially by her close family members who turned their back on her, again, without knowing what goes on behind closed doors.

PART II: The Divorce and Rebuilding

After the separation, Tommy broke down the next time I saw him and sobbed in my lap, apologizing profusely. He admitted “he really fucked up.” He BEGGED me to let him fix our relationship. This was really hard to immediately come to terms with, due to the life I just previously described. After what must have been two hours of this, I gave in. I decided that I would give him that second chance at our relationship. He started going to therapy for his anger management problems. I would visit him across the street, where he was staying, every two or three days to have hour-long conversations with him. I was stunned. I felt like a relationship was actually developing. I felt he truly meant the kind things he was saying to me.

Then, I went to college. My first semester were the absolute best months of my life. However, I also had a lot of time to think and consider my relationship with Tommy. He would call me often, and usually always end up trying to talk about the divorce. Eventually all talk on the phone turned VERY anti-Julie, and I began to realize I was being manipulated yet again. This was very off putting, and I began to ignore some of his texts and calls, not wanting that daily dose of negativity he tried to give me. He would always call or text me about my mother, trying to get me on his side. This was a slow realization, but it finally came to fruition when he told me “When your mother gets hurt and hits rock bottom, I’m not gonna be there when she comes crawling back.” I was extremely taken aback. I explained how it’s cruel that he wants and is expecting that to happen. I told him I couldn’t be in support of that mindset. This led the conversation to me telling him how I had this creeping feeling that none of relationship building he had done was genuine. He insured me this was not the case. I was still very suspicious, but I did not completely abandon hope at that point. There started to be more instances of aggression, including a phone call where he screamed at the top of his lungs at me while I was eating in the dining hall, because I was upset with him because he betrayed my trust (long story, not worth it). This was when I had the feeling my suspicions were correct, considering he had promised to never scream at me again a few months prior.

Winter break arrived, and he came to pick me up. I didn’t put up any walls, and I didn’t fake any feelings. I was stern and short in my interactions with him because I was upset by his recent actions, and he noticed. He could tell I was slipping from his manipulative grip.

PART III: Moving Out

On December 20, 2018, I moved out/was kicked out of my childhood home (I say moved out/kicked out, because I was told to leave and to get out, but I was happy to do so and put up no resistance.).

That night when Tommy came home, he attempted to make conversation with me in my room. I did not want to make conversation with him, as all of these thoughts about manipulation and betrayal were at the forefront of my mind, considering I was supposed to go to Florida with him and my sister for a week, starting Dec 26. I was dreading this trip, as I knew it was just a way to get us on “his side.” Keep in mind, this was also Abby’s birthday present, and he promised he would take her.

When I came down to eat dinner, it was just him and I at the table. He asked me if something was wrong, and I said no. He said it seemed like I was mad at him. I said I wasn’t, I was just miserable whenever I came home because of the negative energy due to the divorce. He proceeded to be highly, personally offended by this statement, and rambled for a few minutes, and then proceeded to bring up almost every single past major argument we’ve ever had, all of which have been previously resolved. He was looking for a fight. Then when we were talking about the reason our relationship is bad and the reasons for the divorce he said, very dramatically, “You know what Patrick? I did nothing wrong.” Smile on his face. No remorse. He blatantly admitted that every single thing he had shoved down my throat for the past six months about being sorry and wanting to change and accepting responsibility was a lie. My true feelings came out. I told him pretty much everything I said in Part I of this post. He was screaming and I was battling to be heard. I called him out on lying to me for months and he responded with “You know what? Fine.  Go live with your mother. Leave. I’m done with you. I’ll see you on the other side.” Abby obviously heard this altercation and called Mom, who called the police to come and make sure nothing violent happened. Mom asked me if  I wanted to go with her and Abby, and I said yes. I left that night, and only returned the next day to retrieve all of my belongings from the house. I am now living with Abby and my mother in her apartment.

That same night I moved out, Tommy texted my mother:

So, clearly, he intended to break his promise to Abby in this moment, and go without her.

Also, the next day, he revoked his co-signer signature from my student loan, took my phone off the phone plan, and asked me to return the key to the house and the key to my car. I feel these are natural consequences of ending my relationship with Tommy, but I figured I’d include it for details’ sake. He also said Mom could have custody of Abby.

PART IV: Christmas Weekend

Two days later, I overheard Tommy facetiming Abby, asking if “Mommy had said anything about letting you come over for Christmas?” This was highly confusing as he had just claimed he was going to Florida without Abby for Christmas (this was unbeknownst to Abby at this point). My mother texted Tommy a direct quote of what he said: “You can have Patrick and Abby for Christmas. I’m going to FL.” He responded:

Two days later, he found out his leave wasn’t cancelled:

He facetimed her and told her they were now going, making her extremely excited, as she’s been looking forward to Harry Potter World for months. However, this was clearly EXTREMELY manipulative. In good conscience, we could not let Abby make the decision to go without knowing the full truth of how Tommy originally planned to go without her. We showed her the first text where Tommy stated he would go to FL without Abby. She read the text, and immediately stormed out of the room, crying. She locked herself in the bathroom, and I attempted to talk to her from outside the door. After calming her down, she let me in, and showed me that she texted Tommy.

He then adamantly attempt to FaceTime her, and she adamantly declined.

Notice the gaslighting: “You’re mad at me for no reason.”

Tommy’s mother then texted me:

Notice the lie: “She told your dad that your Mother said he was using her.” I have provided all screenshots, you can see clearly that Abby tells Tommy he used her on her own accord, she does NOT say “Mom told me you used me,” she says “You used me.” And, when she said those things to Tommy, she was locked in the bathroom, alone.

Notice the monetary manipulation (seems familiar).

Notice the strawmanning: “I’ll let Uncle Eddie and them know you don’t want anything to do with them either.”

Notice the self-victimization: “You two have hurt us and We do not deserve this!”

and then she texted my mother:

Notice the listing of material objects. Gift/monetary manipulation.

Tommy then texted my mother throughout the day:

Notice the blaming: “Are you going to let me take her to FL or not.” He places the blame on Mom because it’s impossible for him to admit that Abby doesn’t want to go because of him. It HAS to be someone else manipulating her or us forcing her to stay here, because he can’t possibly be at fault.

My mother then responded to Tommy:

Notice the blame-shifting: “You have lied to her.”, “It is you who is using this child.”

Then Tommy’s mother texted Abby:

These are the most infuriating screenshots of the whole post. How cold does your heart have to be to insult your ten-year-old granddaughter. Absolutely disgusting and vile.

Notice the monetary/gift manipulation.

This is Abby’s grandmother. Abby is ten years old. This speaks for itself. Abby ran into the bathroom sobbing. Just a reminder that this is Christmas Eve.

My mother then texted Tommy:

Notice the removal of blame and backpedalling: “I didn’t know what I was going to be able to do.” “I didn’t know if I was going to be able to come down.”

Notice the blame-shifting: “[you] started manipulating her yet again.” “You were just waiting…to make her upset”.

Then he defends his mother, rather than his ten year old daughter who was just insulted by her grown family member:

“The only reason Abby is being nasty is because of you.” She WASN’T “being nasty.” All she did was say no. But this middle-aged man can’t take no for an answer. I do not have an ounce of sympathy for Tommy. Just complete pity.

My mom sent her final response to Tommy:

The last texts sent, as of right now, were from Tommy’s mother to my mother. They were more attempts an intimidation, and more attempts to get a reaction. Mom did not respond.

And that’s it. We are going to have a wonderful, peaceful Christmas without Tommy.

I hope this post has highlighted how EXCELLENT Tommy is at manipulating. He has a LOT of family members wrapped around is finger through his manipulation and lies. I hope, after reading this, you realize that he is being deceitful, and that you are being blinded by his cunning ability.

After reading this, I honestly can not comprehend how you can be “on Tommy’s side,” or endorse any of his actions. He was a depressive weight that has been lifted off all of our shoulders. All of us are exponentially happier without him. Keep in mind, I was willing to give him a second chance. I was in support of his therapy for his anger management issues and genuinely thought he could change. I genuinely believed he was changing. I was fooled. Shame on me.

Happy Holidays,

Patrick Weeks

[jageunyeoujari]

hello yaejin. i wanted to apologize for last night. i'm sorry i brought your mental health into an argument, and i'm sorry i invalidated your feelings. that was out of line, and i honestly fucked up. i saw a pattern ive seen before and i jumped to conclusions and it was inappropriate and cruel, especially while we were having an argument. i was dealing with a mental health crisis of a friend and i let it influence me and i wasn't good enough to walk away and say i couldn't talk rationally.

 (sorry, limit). my own situation doesn’t make it okay what i said, and i don’t want to imply it, i just wanted to let you know the context. i’m sorry again.

apologizing for what exactly. sorry for what exactly. you “brought up my mental health” as if it was just a little no-big-deal comment when you used my vulnerability in talking abt my recent mental health struggles as proof that i’m going insane & thus everything i say is illogical when i was talking abt racism in white ace/aro discourse. the ableism was literally a vehicle for you to derail a conversation about race so by copping to just the one, you’re not actually acknowledging the underlying issue framing it. this is such a vapid, spineless, fake apology that doesn’t acknowledge the underlying intent or impact of what that ableism did which was to derail my points abt RACISM & my experience as a lesbian woc who’s also ace. you’re just copping to the obvious thing that even some of the ppl in your clique might feel vaguely bad abt & ignoring everything else.

& you say you just “invalidated my feelings?” LET’S GO IN-DEPTH. first, you were openly hostile for even daring to question you. you brought up corrective rape as a gotcha bc you knew that was an explosive thing to drop & you could derail any objections i have to your ranting as invalidating survivors. & when i asked for proof for your claims of ace/aro oppression & them facing corrective rape, you said you didn’t want to look at triggering material when YOU were the one who dropped corrective rape in the first place w absolute no warning & w no thought if it would trigger ME (which it fucking did btw, thx.) it was curious to me that you used corrective rape as a gotcha for ace/aro oppression when it was created to describe the violence that black lesbians face in south africa. esp in light of how you seem to have this pattern of insinuating how lesbians are somehow so accepted by the lgbt community when we’re so uniquely bigoted & we never try to keep out terfs but don’t seem to take into account how ace/aros can can also be transphobic/terfs as well as homophobic & lesbophobic. that’s not a matter of a few “shitty” ppl. lgb ppl are also allowed to be wary of any non-same sex attracted person being homophobic as they necessarily benefit for not being same sex-attracted esp when have been oppressed for displaying any kind of sexual desire & deemed better if we are asexual. & it seems like you have a pattern of only calling out lesbians instead of like also gay/bi men which i find curious. maybe you do tho & i just haven’t seen. but lesbophobia in the lgbt community esp against lesbians of color is real so it’s just odd that for you to keep saying that we have a completely comfortable position in it. also you positing lesbianism & ace/aro identity as exclusive categories does play into the stereotype that lesbians are hypersexual which is esp damaging to lesbians of color. 

anyway, when i researched on my own & found no convincing evidence to support your claims, you threw a tantrum bc NO MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES & FEELINGS OF BEING OPPRESSED = ULTIMATE TRUTH OF ACE/ARO OPPRESSION. your experiences are valid & all. you’re allowed to feel upset by them. but i fail to see being ace/aro constitutes institutional oppression.  in my search, i mainly saw claims of individual microaggressions and acts of verbal violence as evidence of oppression when those things by themselves don’t prove that there’s an explictly anti-ace/aro system of oppression. i can experience microaggressions for being asian & also not being into sex but those are entirely on different levels for me. i know instinctively that racism is an institutional oppression. i’m literally ace & microaggressions for that mean nothing to me in comparison. you feel differently abt it & you’re allowed but again, personal experience of microaggressions doesn’t prove institutional oppression. i also saw vague citings of a study of ppl apparently being more likely to say they’d discriminate against asexuals than lgbt ppl. the study seemed too flawed to me & doesn’t seem to take into account how ppl might know it’s bad to admit they’d discriminate against lgbt ppl but that doesn’t prove they’re not actually homophobic/transphobic. like liberal white ppl likely won’t admit that they’re racist bc they know that looks bad. doesn’t mean they’re not racist. as for corrective rape, i don’t remember finding anything that wasn’t abt violence against black lesbians & certainly not any that cites specifically anti-ace/aro motivations. i’m not saying it can never happen. but in comparison, it can be proven that cr is part of an explicit system of homophobia & misogyny against black lesbians in south africa but i didn’t see any for ace/aros. & i mean, i researched this while reading abt cr which is deeply upsetting to me as a lesbian so it’s not like this was easy for me. but i don’t rly think you have a leg to stand on in this instance bc you never provided any proof & didn’t say what your exacting reasoning on this is. it didn’t even have to be abt cr & i’m not saying you should disclose traumatic experiences, but just… say something to help me understand where you’re coming from. otherwise you look like you’re just expecting a woc to blindly accept & follow you.

& i have to bring up white ace/aro discourse elides how misogyny & patriarchy & racism & other -isms impact pressures to be sexual or asexual.  poc esp black ppl are stereotyped as either hypersexual or asexual. being seen as hypersexual is dehumanizing & can be traumatic & lead to real life serious consequences. i’m literally asexual but i empathize w non-asexual poc esp woc & the struggles they face & thus have no interest in white ace/aro rhetoric that posits being sexual as a universally normal, ideal, uncomplicated privilege & asexuals are oppressed by them. also being seen as asexual/actually being asexual can be so damaging & traumatic to poc which is why so many of us are alienated by white ace/aros who posit it as a universally positive thing to be proud of. white ace/aros also imply that they can somehow face oppression by like non-sexual poc which is concerning in light of the history of racist/colonialist ideas of backwards, hypersexual black & brown menaces & seductresses versus the purity & chastity of whiteness. controlling the sexuality of poc is a key part of white supremacy so there isn’t an obvious oppressor/oppressed dynamic here like men/women, white/poc. & considering how reproductive justice is constantly under fire & how there’s societal pressure for women to be effectively asexual until (hetero) marriage, it’s hard for me to think how non-asexual women not in hetero relationships actually… benefit from being non-asexual. there’s also different expectations abt being sexual for men, esp white men, than women & white ace/aro discourse tends to ignore that. sure, men are generally encouraged to be sexual & the shaming of asexual men likely sucks. but shaming doesn’t necessarily mean ace/aro oppression & seems more like to me a symptom of patriarchy/gender roles & heteronormativity.  so in my estimation, misogyny & patriarchy & racism as well as other systems of oppression like ableism, homophobia, transphobia, & classism better explain these differing expectations for being sexual or asexual rather than ace/aro vs non-ace/aros being an entirely separate dynamic. i literally couldn’t find any evidence for your claims & you got so upset at me for that but never tried giving me one piece of proof. yes, i know that oppressors demanding the oppressed to prove their oppression to them is a legitimate thing & the oppressed don’t need to feel obligated to educate them. i’ve experienced this frustration many times myself. but your behavior in this instance strikes me as white entitlement & again, a sign of you being frustrated that a woc isn’t blindly accepting you’re automatically right.

& when i started getting rly into the racism in white ace/aro discourse, you rly lost your shit. you dropped your abuse history & claimed i was invalidating you being abused for being ace when i literally never did. you straight up lied abt that. & also i know you know that i have experienced abuse & if you like bothered to think, you would take into account that i could be triggered by you dropping that out of nowhere, but instead you dropped it in an attempt to derail & get me to shut up. now this is when you suddenly rave abt how it’s obvious i’m on a bad mental health spiral & i’m believing in conspiracy theories & i’m paranoid, all a transparent attempt to make everything i said abt racism apparently wrong. w/o giving me a chance to reply, you promptly blocked like a coward. oh, also truly hilarious how you’re such a hypocrite for bringing up your friend’s mental health crisis as an excuse for your racialized misogyny when you literally used my mental illnesses to derail & attack me & dropped 2 instances of potentially triggering shit as gotchas & never took into account how this all could impact MY mental health. 

rose also sent me a long ass screed abt how i’m rigid & narrow-minded & crazy & paranoid & lied abt how i’m guilting her abt not being an activist which i explained multiple times i wasn’t. she blocked before i could respond. so not just you but your clique sure seem to love throwing tantrums abt how your feelings equal the ultimate truth & how dare some bitch try to think critically abt institutional oppression & process her thoughts on her private twitter & be, god forbid, socially conscious. who does that chink think she is, am i right? why isn’t she just a doormat & shut up? why is she making us UNCOMFORTABLE?!?!?!! like maybe ask yourselves why you take it so personally & you all don’t like it when i talk abt sj & activism. rly look inside yourself for why that is. 

& as soon as you’re all done with your ravings, which are full of lies & deliberate misinterpretations of what i said & massive projection & anti-intellectualism & manipulation & guilt-tripping, you all block so you don’t have to face the consequences or have to hear me out. that’s so fucking spineless & cowardly. & that’s so loaded since you all prevented me from saying anymore on racism. that’s just classic white fragility & a fear of outspoken, critical woc making you uncomfortable abt race. oh, also shout out to runa who acted “impartial” but did effectively the same thing as you. she acted concerned abt my mental health so she could convince me i’m crazy & get me to shut up abt institutional oppression & racism & instead focus on “fun things” (i.e. non-political, safe topics so she could feel comfortable). i feel esp disappointed in her bc that kind of wishy washy behavior is extremely irritating & patronizing & two-faced to me. i hated her acting like she was worried abt me when she was effectively doing the same thing as you, silencing me & making me feel crazy which means everything i say is wrong. 

really try to reflect why you all thought it was threatening when i tried to facilitate a productive dialogue, i did try to be level-headed & open-minded, emphasized that i just want to understand your pov, researched on my own for your claims, & processed my thoughts on institutional oppression & my experiences as a lesbian woc who’s also ace. i tried to open up a dialogue but you refused & threw a hissy fit bc i dared to not join your echo chamber & tried looking at actual data instead of just believing that you’re automatically right w no proof which is esp loaded in this situation bc you’re white. sjc also pulled this on me too so yes i am angry you also did the same. you all treated me in such bad fucking faith & pulled such fucking passive aggressive, manipulative, cowardly, idiotic bullshit.

god, you know what? your behavior in this indicated a huge sense of white entitlement & a problem w black & white thinking & accompanying self-righteousness. i try so hard to be nuanced & compassionate & flexible & see from your pov & i clearly stated i wanted a dialogue.. what did i get in return for it? not even the bare minimum. you treated me like fucking shit & never gave me even a tiny bit of effort or consideration. that’s racialized misogyny. how fucking dare you give me this fucking insipid half-assed fake apology. you didn’t even fucking try to think abt how you actually hurt me. all i’m getting here is you attempting to assuage a vague sense of guilt FOR YOUR OWN SAKE. not even attempting to think abt how i’m an actual real human being w my own emotions, thoughts, & will. how fucking selfish can you get. not the first fucking time white ppl wanted me just be a doormat, to be their submissive smiling oriental doll only there to validate their stupid, self-centered asses & not the first time their apology was abysmal. actually, you know what, i don’t even know why i even bothered writing all this fucking shit trying to explain myself & wasting my time on you again when you’ve never tried to do anything for me, not even make a fucking decent apology.

in conclusion, this was all v obviously steeped in racism & white entitlement/fragility all in an attempt to silence me bc how fucking dare some woc bring up social justice issues in a way that’s not catered to you. you’ve all shown your asses & clearly demonstrated ableism & racialized misogyny. i’m profoundly disappointed in all of you & you’ve all hurt me so much. i’m blocking you now bc you’ve proven yourself to be a lost cause. 

#corrective rape tw #rape tw #ableism tw #the-final-resplendent-pam #the final resplendent pam #askbox #uig.y.eon #abuse mention

[carrionkat]

Response for kateofthecanals

Here ya go, @kateofthecanals

I don’t really use Tumblr all that much so I apologize for any formatting hiccups or errors in courtesy.

Well, since I agree with literally all of your positive points (especially how Rey and Kylo’s visions could be the same, just viewed from a different perspective), and this is already getting too long I’m just going to address your negatives!

- The turning point for me, going from “YES YES YES!” to “oh…” was immediately after the team-up in the throne room, when I quickly realized that Kylo didn’t kill Snoke because he suddenly “woke up”, and he didn’t do it for Rey… he did it so that HE could be the HBIC.

I actually read the scene differently. Conflict is the central theme of Kylo’s character, so I saw him as undecided up until he realizes that he will never be out from under Snoke’s boot. He wants to be free to decide who he is and the path his destiny will take (as seen in his “let the past die” speech) and he can’t do that while Snoke lives. I think it’s less about taking charge of the First Order, and more about killing the monster who has been pulling his strings since he was an infant. And I think Snoke demanding he kill Rey is what wakes him up, in that it makes him realize that he will never be allowed to make a meaningful choice while Snoke lives. He doesn’t want to kill Rey (in fact he wants her to be a part of the future he creates). He achieves avoiding this by killing the person making her death a possibility.

- I was really bummed when Snoke “revealed” that he was the one who facilitated the Force-bond between Kylo and Rey, but I was relieved to see this wasn’t the case after all at the end when Kylo and Rey had that one last Force-encounter. But again, what was this actually worth in the end? She closed the door on him. It was established in this film, via Luke, that a Force user can close themselves off to the Force. Who’s to say Rey won’t do the same to Kylo? That she will find a way to cut him off completely? There’s literally nothing stopping her, because she has clearly given up on him…

 This is going to be a steep hill to get over, but I think a grand enough gesture from Kylo could get through to Rey. Once she knew what happened to him as a child with Luke, she forgave him for a whole lotta bad. If he were to, say, sabotage the First Order or release a prisoner or something that showed he was still conflicted, I think that could change her mind.

 - … as has everyone else. And with good reason, tbh. The moment Kylo threw Rey under the bus for Snoke’s death, declared himself new Supreme Leader, and went fucking buckwild on Luke, I knew all hope for redemption was gone. Even Leia was like, “nope, I was wrong, he’s lost for good.” Basically what I got out of this movie was, Rey and Kylo “flirt” with the other sides of the Force for a hot second but then just ultimately decide that they belong where they were in the first place. Gee wow what awesome character development…

 I think there was actually development here. Kylo has gone from puppet to free being. His personality beyond that is still malleable. The Dark is what he knows and it’s what he’s been trying to be since childhood, so it’s the path he follows, for now. I’m not sold that it will be the one he continues to follow, however. I also think the hopelessness of the situation is supposed to parallel Empire Strikes Back. We’re supposed to feel grim. This is our heroes’ lowest point; we’re only going up from here.

Also, he despises Luke for good reason. Him going buckwild on Luke isn’t really a condemnation of his entire character. His uncle, who he trusted and loved, tried to kill him. That’s gonna leave some damage. His rage isn’t born out of a hatred for Luke’s ideologies or of hatred of the Light, it’s born out of having his trust broken in the most cruel way possible. Maybe even resentment that Luke’s actions drove him into Snoke’s less-than-kind tutelage, but that’s probably reaching.

 - The revelation of Rey’s parents was just so… banal. I felt like this was thrown in there just to put the question to rest, without any additional thought or exploration, even though that was made such a HUGE deal of in TFA. But, nah, they were “nobodies”, end of story, case closed, that’s all she wrote. It was never even explained how Kylo knew about Rey’s parents!!

 The way I thought Kylo knew is because Rey knew, the whole time, and was just in denial about it. He sees it through their connection. She sees herself in the Dark part of the temple because she already knows the answer. (Also her saying she was “unafraid” while stuck in the Dark says something, but we’ll see if it gets followed up on).

 - I’ve seen people claim that this movie “shuts down” anti arguments for good and that is simply not the case. There is still plenty of ammo from this movie they can use, chief among them Kylo’s cringeworthy statement to Rey that “You’re nobody. But not to me.”

 Oof, yeah, I actively cringed when he said that. Someone’s been reading PUA shit. But if you want to dig for excuses you can bring up that Kylo has literally zero positive interactions with anyone except Rey, and is thusly a social moron who has forgotten what kindness is. What he’s saying is what Rey feels (that she’s nobody), followed up by what he feels (that she’s somebody) and with no pretty trimmings about it. It’s still a really shitty thing to say and I wish that line wasn’t there.

 - I’m glad everyone’s happy that Kylo didn’t actually KILL Leia (which I knew he wouldn’t) but I dunno how many brownie points he gets considering he still let those other fighters take her out…

 He does seem a little shocked when the other fighter’s shots connect, so maybe he was so focused on making a choice that he didn’t realize the fighter’s were taking the shot? Still, I agree with you.

 - And he barely even flinched when Snoke was torturing Rey. You’d think that, I don’t know, since they have a Force-bond and everything, that he would have been able to feel her pain or something???

 Yeah, some kind of reaction would have been nice. I thought I saw him trembling, but I can’t remember it very clearly so I would have to rewatch.

 - During Kylo’s attack on Crait, at a certain point (around the time Luke shows up), Rey just, like, disappears, completely, and doesn’t show up again until the very end to do her rock-lifting trick. Firstly, where the hell was she that whole time, but more importantly, wouldn’t it have been kind of awesome if, like, she could sense what was happening between Kylo and Luke and using their Force-bond try to talk him out of it? And see him actually STRUGGLE with it because he’s still torn between wanting to be with her and wanting to be the Big Bad? Buuuut no, because at that point, both their minds were made up, and Rey had given up on him anyway.

 Rey’s part (or lack thereof) in that battle seemed really messy narratively. There’s no reason for them to be flying over the mountains in the Falcon; they have no reason to believe that the rest of the Resistance is trying to flee the base. Why aren’t they back there in the action? Why don’t they try to blow the cannon up? Or take out the Walkers? The bond that Rey has with Kylo AND the student/teacher one she has with Luke are both just left dangling there. The Kylo/Luke confrontation is incredibly tense and I loved so many things about it, but it does feel like substance was cut for style there.

 - On a more technical level, I was really disappointed by how the Force-bond sequences were filmed. I expected way more from Rian Johnson; this was something any first-year film student could have come up with. Now, I’m not claiming to be “better than Rian Johnson”, but in my headcanons of Rey and Kylo’s Force-conversations, there was a noticeable atmospheric shift – some sort of visual cue that something “different” was going on… Instead of just this basic cutting back and forth between them in their respective locales. Meh.

 There was a bit of an audio cue (the sound warped) but a bit of blur around the edges or color shift or something would have been a nice visual cue.

 - I didn’t find Rose that memorable, sorry. And her whole mission with Finn, much like the Kylo/Rey storyline, ended up being completely pointless, thanks to Admiral Holdo needlessly keeping vital info about her plans from Poe. WHY??? All of it was just an elaborate excuse to send Finn off on another adventure where he would end up back with the First Order so he could finish off Phasma, period. Like, yeah, there was that little hint at the very end that those kids who took care of the fathiers would, like, have something to do with the Resistance in the next movie, but honestly that could have just been a little meta commentary about how kids have been inspired by the Star Wars franchise over these past 40 years. Which is nice and all, but Finn and Rose’s mission was still pointless.

 Agreed; it felt like the weakest part of the movie to me. I wanted to like Rose and Finn, but I kinda ended up resenting that their (ultimately) pointless story was taking so much time away from what I thought were more interesting plot lines.

 I think the last bit was meta commentary, as well as showing that Luke’s words are true; he isn’t the last of the lightside. It’s not just Rey who will succeed him, it’s every child who has heard his story and strives to be good because of it.

 - Same with Holdo. So here’s this lady who just shows up out of nowhere, keeps vital information from Poe for no good goddamn reason, thereby forcing him to come up with his own plan and send Finn & Rose on a wild goose chase, and then suddenly we’re supposed to buy this close, intimate relationship she has with Leia so that we’ll feel all wistful when she decides to go on a suicide mission to protect the Resistance?? That should have been Leia, tbh… and not just for cheap emotional impact. At that point, Leia believed both the cause and her son to be lost and really had nothing else to lose at that point, and it would have been well within her personality to take out as many motherfuckers as she could to go down with her. Holdo should have been set up as Leia’s heir apparent going forward, and Leia going all kamikaze on the First Order would have been an interesting parallel to Luke also sacrificing himself to protect the ones he loved. AND it would have solved the whole issue of how to move forward in the story after Carrie’s death. I mean, we know that Leia was supposed to play a big part in Episode 9, but we’ll never know what that was supposed to be anyway…

I feel Holdo’s story was weakened by that last interaction with Leia and where she says she liked Poe. If she stuck to the opinion she voiced earlier about him being a liability, maybe cautioned Leia about his recklessness, it makes her character more consistent. She’s presented as being kind of “by the rules” as opposed to Poe’s casual improvisation. If they kept her mindset as “he’s an idiot who can’t take orders and that’s an issue; the chain of command exists for a reason; we can’t have everyone second guessing every decision I make and that’s why I didn’t tell him” it wouldn’t feel as wishy-washy. Maybe it could have even worked as a lesson for Poe.

I like that Leia didn’t die here. It helps keep that idea of hope alive. While the reasons you point out for her doing Holdo’s maneuver make sense on a personal level, Leia being alive gives the Resistance hope, and it gives the audience hope.

For some of my personal thoughts on where Kylo and Rey could end up going from here...

Where we leave Kylo he's still in strife. He's gotten everything he's wanted: eliminating his 'weakness,' eclipsing Vader in power (after all, Vader didn’t survive the Sith ideal of killing his master) but it will not bring him any sort of joy. He's lonely and lost, not power-mad, and becoming Supreme Leader is only going to isolate him more. His force bond with Rey is still intact, despite her metaphorically closing the door on him. Their interactions haven’t been intentional, yet they still happen, because they’re both lonely and long for understanding. That’s not going to change for Kylo, even if it does for Rey. That could be a piece of what causes him to change.

Kylo Ren doesn’t give a shit about the First Order, not really. He isn’t making rousing speeches about the necessity of the cause like Hux; his actions are all concerned with Snoke’s orders and his own internal strife. He doesn’t want to lead the First Order because he believes in it, he’s leading to use it as a tool. He wants to destroy his past so he can finally shape his own destiny and decide for himself who he wants to be. He’s been shaped by others all his life; now he’s free of that. Snoke, the biggest influence in his life, is gone. He couldn’t kill Leia when he had the chance. He is pulled to Rey over and over. He seems to feel regret at the end when he finds Han’s dice. The question is, who will be created by this situation? Will it be enough to pull him, maybe not entirely to the light, but into the grey?

Snoke made a comment that I think/hope will come to be very relevant. Something to the effect of “darkness rises, and light to meet it.” The Force strives to create balance. The more dark there is, the more light there must be. But trying to balance two extremes causes tension and strife. They try to eliminate one another, and the pendulum swings wildly between the two. The true way to create balance, is to move towards the middle. I think that’s what the point of Luke’s arc was. Luke’s fear of the Dark helped create Kylo Ren from Ben. His adherence to an order that gave rise to Sidious and pushed his own father into Dark caused it to happen again. This makes it clear that the Jedi order of old doesn’t work anymore.

The Jedi were a defunct order. They swung the pendulum to far to the “Light” and demanded impossible things: emotionless, passionless, unquestioning devotion. Does any of that sound like Rey? Emotion drives everything she does! To eliminate her emotions, to make her a Jedi, it would destroy her entire character. If they do that they’re throwing out all the themes and messages they built up over Last Jedi. Same thing if Kylo stays entirely Dark. I think (hope) that they both come to realize that neither of them actually wants the destruction of the other. Maybe Rey reads those texts that made it onto the Falcon and realizes that she can’t follow the Jedi ideals. Maybe those old texts contain the idea of grey Jedi instead of the Light/Dark dichotomy; after all, there was a shrine to the Dark on the island, so the founders of the temple couldn’t have rejected it entirely.

They’ve set up plenty of signs that point to the emergence of grey Jedi instead of the Sith and the Light. They could end up pulling the rug out from under us and just make IX flat “good” vs evil with no nuance, but that would be ignoring all the work done in Last Jedi, and it would be messy story telling to not follow the cues that they already laid.

And honestly is Kylo goes grey there’s no reason why he and Rey wouldn’t end up together. Force bonds are powerful things, and their awareness of one another is almost painful. Rey would have to shut herself off from the Force to cut off her awareness of him, and is she really going to do that? Maybe she will for a time, but that’s not a long-term solution.

So while there are no steadfast assurances that we will get what we want from IX, I would say that the necessary groundwork for what we want has already been laid.

Oh! Another thought. Kylo’s “rule the galaxy at my side” is the SAME EXACT THING Vader offered Luke (but, like, without the romantic undertones). Like Luke, Rey rejected his offer. But Vader was still redeemed in the end. If Kylo’s story continues his mirroring of Vader, we will get a redemption. The real question is, will we get it without Kylo dying?

#last jedi spoilers