hawkogurl

[hawkogurl]

Oh my god. OH my god. On the subject of transfem Harry/Emily. I don't know if she's a musical person (yeah, Spider-Man 3 mentions the playwriting but there's more than one kind of theater) but if she was can you imagine her having gender envy for Chrsitine Daae. If pressed she'd say she wants that iconic chestnut mane, and that's not untrue, but I think she also wishes her dead dad whose memory influences her every move had been a nice person.

extremely real and true headcanon, harry/emily/whatever name they go by is a christine daae kinnie to the core and i’ve always liked the idea of harry’s hair growing out with the texture it has in sm2 (which is the best era of harry hair imho)

#harryposting

[hawkogurl]

I don’t agree with what you’re saying about the symbiote and the goblin serum right off the bat because the best versions of the serum are always the ones that explicitly have it make someone a less inhibited form of the person or otherwise really only give the person the power to do things they always want to do. The thing with venom is that it’s an external entity influencing another persons actions which will always be read as though that person has no agency or less agency or otherwise they shouldn’t be held responsible. And when you try and create an addiction metaphor, it’ll be read in a very “it’s not them, it’s the drugs!” way because of how they set it up. There are a lot of layers in which someone having Venom is going to be read as an area where they aren’t responsible for their own actions.

And that doesn’t eliminate my issue. Interpersonal relationships aren’t enough to built an entire character off of. It becomes the most intense crystallization of a lot of the issues in the insomniac supporting cast, which is that they often really only exist to support Peter’s character arc. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but you can sort of see it when characters often only have interesting interpersonal connections to serve the plot or to accomplish something else related to Peter. Because this Harry is focused so much on interpersonal stuff, he feels like he just exists as this vaguely enjoyable to see on screen filled space that they tug around to either motivate Peter or progress his arc or likely eventually do the same thing with Norman. His connections don’t make him feel individual, they make him feel like a walking plot device.

If you want Spider-Man media that focuses on Harry’s connections, similar to the ones that don’t the opposite end of the coin shouldn’t be removed entirely. There are plenty of things that do this better in my opinion because they don’t hack off half his character. A lot of the animated shows do this well. Hell, if you’re willing to trade Peter for Gwen, spider-gwen does this better. Not perfect by any means but they feel less flat than insom Harry.

I think Spidey-xan worded this better than I could when they sent me that ask, but the issue with the conflicts he does have particularly with Norman is that because of all the stuff they removed, it feels contrived. It feels like they just expected their audience to be familiar with the typical conflicts of Harry’s and Norman’s relationship as a way to use it as shorthand for the issues they do make happen rather than actually set it up themselves. As I said, it feels like they want the benefits of that conflict without finding another way to get to Point B.

And I do see what you’re saying with looking beneath the surface! But with how much of that looking beneath the surface is just connecting the weird frayed ends of poorly thought through writing for them or just feel like there isn’t enough to his character to do any meaningful analysis that doesn’t slide back up to exhibit a. A lot of the headcanons and stuff are really cool and I’m not gonna begrudge anyone who finds them important, but it won’t stop it from feeling a little like it’s just trying to make their writing good for them.

Like, you don’t need my permission to like him. You’re allowed to do that. But there’s a reason that it seems like a lot of people have agreed with this.

Number one opinion that I have that would get me shot at this point is that insomniac Spider Man’s side characters feel watered down. Especially Harry.

#harryposting

[hawkogurl]

Yeah, I basically had a similar reading on Insomniac!Harry as you did, I think - I do like him a lot, and I definitely see why he would the most popular version of him in the fandom right now, but he's a very smoothed over and simplified version who feels written to be as broadly loveable as possible, if that makes sense? I read a very thoughtful critique of the game recently that described Harry as being Peter's 'comically perfect' best friend, and I think that gets at the game's take on him and ties neatly into what you said about how the characters in Insomniac feel like they're written mostly to serve Peter's story and character, which is not necessarily a bad thing when he's the protagonist, but can flatten characters into narrative devices who don't necessarily feel like full characters; and any time Harry could be perceived as doing or saying something flawed, he's justified, or at least it's understandable, and it doesn't help that the last part of the game where he's Venom was rushed (not the fault of the devs for being pushed by corporate to meet a deadline they couldn't meet ofc) and it's not really clear how much is the symbiote amplifying his emotions, manipulating him, or outright controlling him like a puppet for its own agenda - but any way, it's very easy and probably correct to read him as not being truly at fault for anything.

Regarding Norman, my take is that I don't necessarily mind an interpretation of him that focuses on corporate greed and lack of ethics while exploring what if Norman was villainous, but genuinely loves and cares for his son in this universe, but MSM2 weirdly wanted both that and the usual drama from Harry being jealous of an abusive Norman choosing Peter over him, so we got that awkward scene where Norman is doing no such thing and still being a great father, but Harry mistakenly believes he's choosing Peter - so it's manufactured drama to follow the universes where Norman is abusive and Harry has issues from that, but here, everyone is still a good or at least neutral person at worst and it's all an honest mistake, which goes back to what you said about taking the edge out of the characters here - doesn't mean they're bad, like you also clarified, but definitely softer.

Can’t form intelligent thoughts because I need to go to sleep but I’m going to say I agree with all of the above. He’s very palatable in a way that just becomes boring for me. I’ll probably come back and contribute later when I’m not barely conscious.

For now, I agree especially because them wanting the Norman drama but also sort of pussying out of the Norman drama sort of like… feels like a good example of what I mentioned in that when you write an established character but change a major aspect of them, you need to compensate. They wanted the benefits of those arcs but weren’t willing to either include the original arcs or do the work to come up with something that can get to point b in a different way with what they’ve kept. It’s not the best writing decision in my opinion. And I agree with that articles assessment he feels like, comically perfect. Scrubbing away all his unsavory aspects lost him a lot of the ways he’s flawed and interesting because it often feels he exists solely to progress Peter’s arc rather than having the personal drama he often has.

I don’t personally like these softer versions. I’m not gonna say it’s bad or wrong to like those versions, but they definitely feel watered down when it’s not looked at in isolation or looked at more critically. It rapidly became boring for me.

#just gonna reblog this rq

[hawkogurl]

Yeah, I basically had a similar reading on Insomniac!Harry as you did, I think - I do like him a lot, and I definitely see why he would the most popular version of him in the fandom right now, but he's a very smoothed over and simplified version who feels written to be as broadly loveable as possible, if that makes sense? I read a very thoughtful critique of the game recently that described Harry as being Peter's 'comically perfect' best friend, and I think that gets at the game's take on him and ties neatly into what you said about how the characters in Insomniac feel like they're written mostly to serve Peter's story and character, which is not necessarily a bad thing when he's the protagonist, but can flatten characters into narrative devices who don't necessarily feel like full characters; and any time Harry could be perceived as doing or saying something flawed, he's justified, or at least it's understandable, and it doesn't help that the last part of the game where he's Venom was rushed (not the fault of the devs for being pushed by corporate to meet a deadline they couldn't meet ofc) and it's not really clear how much is the symbiote amplifying his emotions, manipulating him, or outright controlling him like a puppet for its own agenda - but any way, it's very easy and probably correct to read him as not being truly at fault for anything.

Regarding Norman, my take is that I don't necessarily mind an interpretation of him that focuses on corporate greed and lack of ethics while exploring what if Norman was villainous, but genuinely loves and cares for his son in this universe, but MSM2 weirdly wanted both that and the usual drama from Harry being jealous of an abusive Norman choosing Peter over him, so we got that awkward scene where Norman is doing no such thing and still being a great father, but Harry mistakenly believes he's choosing Peter - so it's manufactured drama to follow the universes where Norman is abusive and Harry has issues from that, but here, everyone is still a good or at least neutral person at worst and it's all an honest mistake, which goes back to what you said about taking the edge out of the characters here - doesn't mean they're bad, like you also clarified, but definitely softer.

Can’t form intelligent thoughts because I need to go to sleep but I’m going to say I agree with all of the above. He’s very palatable in a way that just becomes boring for me. I’ll probably come back and contribute later when I’m not barely conscious.

For now, I agree especially because them wanting the Norman drama but also sort of pussying out of the Norman drama sort of like… feels like a good example of what I mentioned in that when you write an established character but change a major aspect of them, you need to compensate. They wanted the benefits of those arcs but weren’t willing to either include the original arcs or do the work to come up with something that can get to point b in a different way with what they’ve kept. It’s not the best writing decision in my opinion. And I agree with that articles assessment he feels like, comically perfect. Scrubbing away all his unsavory aspects lost him a lot of the ways he’s flawed and interesting because it often feels he exists solely to progress Peter’s arc rather than having the personal drama he often has.

I don’t personally like these softer versions. I’m not gonna say it’s bad or wrong to like those versions, but they definitely feel watered down when it’s not looked at in isolation or looked at more critically. It rapidly became boring for me.

#harryposting #harry osborn #spider man #spiderman #peter parker #parksborn #insomniac spider man #Norman Osborn #msm2023 #marvels spider man 2 #msm2 #insomniac critical #for that filtering #because I’m not an asshole

[hawkogurl]

Me when I haven’t posted the link in a while.

#harryposting #harry osborn #raimiverse #raimi trilogy #spider man #spiderman #peter parker #parksborn #insomniac games #msm2023 #tssm #msm 2017

[hawkogurl]

Parksborn server every 5 minutes of any raimi spider man movie: DID YOU GUYS KNOW SAM RAIMI'S A HORROR DIRECTOR

#did you know? #harryposting

[hawkogurl]

About your tags-am I not the guy who notoriously HATES raimi harrys casting?

I think my issue with that is that all those things I mentioned Contribute to the most interesting complexities in how Harry interacts with Peter. How he interacts with him is inextricably linked from what I was mentioning.

And I don’t think one dynamic alone is enough to support his character. That’s one of my issues with how insomniac treats its characters. That dynamic tends to be all the focus. And with Harry, his behavior in social situations is not something you can disconnect from the rest of him easily

Venom is also likely a major cause for this issue. Even if it is the metaphor you say, which I agree with, it will ALWAYS be seen as an excuse. People treat it as an excuse when Peter has it and will always do so. I want him to be an asshole on his own.

In my opinion, if you try to ONLY focus on one aspect of a character rather than focus more but not ignore other aspects, a character will feel flat. As such, Harry feels flat to me because they focus on that relationship but they don’t give the context to the normal behavior in that relationship. They know this and therefore lean away from the things they can’t explore—and then they lose massive amounts of his character. That dynamic isn’t enough to form an entire character without it falling flat for me because that dynamic is built off other aspects of Harry’s character-his jealousy, his normally odd attachment to his father, his drug, alcohol, and mental health struggles. I’m still a little bitter about the amount of the time Harry’s mental health and addictions are completely erased, it puts a bad taste in my mouth. That’s a me thing, but when you get rid of ALL of that, you get rid of two of his three dimensions. And the way they’ve written it, some of those things, not all, exist in the background but with how little they exist they might as well not.

And Norman I agree with, my opinion will just vary based on the third game. Mostly him not being abusive can kinda feel weird to me because I’m way too used to Norman’s who are abusive having their abuse erased by the narrative when the writers are being lazy and by the fandom when the fans need to justify liking a character. I’m not the most upset about this, it’s more the prior philosophy of when you remove something you need to compensate for what that does to the characters involved and they kinda. Haven’t.

Number one opinion that I have that would get me shot at this point is that insomniac Spider Man’s side characters feel watered down. Especially Harry.

#harryposting

[hawkogurl]

So I just saw a post by a random personal blog that said “don’t follow me if we never even had a conversation before” and?????? Not to be rude but literally what the fuck??????????

I’ve had people (non-pornbots) try to strike conversation out of nowhere in my DMs recently, and now I’m wondering if they were doing that because they wanted to follow me and thought they needed to interact first. I feel compelled to say, just in case, that it’s totally okay to follow this blog (or my side blog, for that matter) even if we’ve never talked before.

Also, I’m legit confused. Is this how follow culture works right now? It was worded like it’s common sense but is that really a thing?

[hawkogurl]

[hawkogurl]

My guy if you don’t see how Harry’s watered down and made more palatable by msm2023 I’m just gonna assume that you’re not super familiar with many of his other iterations. /hj

This won’t be worded the best but like

Harry is normally distinctly flawed in a way that makes him at least a little unlikeable to some people and more prominently, makes him behave in a more complicated way. This is usually caused by things like Norman. But because insomniac decided to change their relationship, Harry loses a lot of his more complex behavior and more unsavory traits. I hate this. I want him to be somewhat unsavory. I want to see him being jealous and petty and bitter like we see in raimi, spectacular, or the comics a lot of the time. I want to see him behaving irrationally like we see constantly in the versions that people who are broadly fans of Harry in general tend to prefer.

And people are probably gonna come in and say that insom Harry has moments where he is some of those things and while I agree, the context always acts like he’s justified in it. Which is great until you remember that part of my issue here is that I want times in which he’s not. All the versions that feel more distinctly Harry let him be outright wrong in a way that’s not rationalized by the narrative. Hes just being an ass and it’s great.

But Insomniac changed a lot about his character. Which is fine! But my personal philosophy is one where I think if you change or remove something you need to compensate for it, which they tend to fail to do. I think this largely exists because the way they write it is that the entire supporting cast exists as narrative scaffolding for Peter, so they cut content that doesn’t support his arc. Which is fine! But it means you lose a lot of the core of these characters at the benefit that Peter is very strong and the narrative is very streamlined. This isn’t a bad choice—a lot of the side characters are just gonna lose a lot of their complexity for it.

Norman’s not abusive, he’s lost his canon psychosis/schizophrenia that’s vital to him in the comics—something that’s personally disappointing for me and what my tags referred to. They focus more on Emily, but it lacks the depth most of his normal conflicts do because they need to focus on different things.

Another thing is like… for whatever reason, the world and the spider man fandom at large tend to view Harry as this like. Irredeemable dark monster for some reason. It can feel like insom just swung the full opposite way and made him optimistic sunshine boy without a lot of his normal depth while also losing his complexity. Especially in the first act, the act where it’s most important to establish your characters.

I’m writing this out of my ass while doing different things so it won’t be the best wording and I’m no doubt missing a lot, but it covers the broader points. Might make a more in depth critique at some point.

Also I hate it when Harry is conventionally attractive and I need the world to stop making him that way immediately

TL;DR: where’s the spice. why’s he so watered down. where’s his swag.

Number one opinion that I have that would get me shot at this point is that insomniac Spider Man’s side characters feel watered down. Especially Harry.

[hawkogurl]

Number one opinion that I have that would get me shot at this point is that insomniac Spider Man’s side characters feel watered down. Especially Harry.

#prev tags

[hawkogurl]

Number one opinion that I have that would get me shot at this point is that insomniac Spider Man’s side characters feel watered down. Especially Harry.

#harryposting #and man is it such a great feeling that one of the only times where the mentally ill guy who doesn’t behave perfectly but isn’t demonized #is considered likeable by the fandom #is the time he’s not mentally ill #and behaves in an entirely palatable fashion

[hawkogurl]

#hey gang please raimisweep this for me mwah #I say this kindly #but insomniac Harry is so watered down #raimi #spectacular #or 616 are baller #and tasm is notoriously ableist

[hawkogurl]

sam raimi about harry osborn

#yeah sure I’ll reblog this #harryposting

[hawkogurl]

Harry yelling "-I'm still here Peter!" While tailing Peter in the alleyway is such a good line. Peter just can't seem to shake off his sins and Norman's will.

#also fun because Peter often outright abandons Harry when he needs him most which lead up to this point where he can’t anymore #also fun because I love it when Harry Osborn scapegoat imagery #harryposting

[hawkogurl]

i ain't ever seen a happy iteration of parksborn/happy parksborn shipper

[hawkogurl]

Hiiii do you have any insomniac parksborn fic recs

I’ll be real, I’m generally not as into insomniac because to me it can feel like they, for lack of a better term, took a lot of the Spice out of characters I normally like so it can personally feel kinda boring and they structure their supporting cast in a way that’s just not my personal taste and have also developed a bad habit of using Miles as nothing but a vehicle to progress Peter’s character arc. However, I can say that I have very much enjoyed covetphantom7 on ao3’s works.

#harryposting #harry osborn #peter parker #parksborn #spider man #spiderman #insomniac spider man #msm2023 #msm2 #marvels spider man 2