#I miss telemachus
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u know I never actually finished reading the odyssey I’ll get back on that in uhhh 2 days
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Do you think Odysseus, even for a split second, saw Telemachus in Astyanax’s eyes? Do you think he remembered his son? His only son? Left back home, growing up without his father, who would face a future of uncertainty and chaos in his household? Do you think he remembered Penelope, his wife, mother of his child? Do you think he hesitated? Even for a moment? Do you think he regretted it?
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vera and I are reading the odyssey out loud and woah. it's good. you hear about this?
#menelaus voice I miss odysseus' sweet ass#helen voice oh yes me too#OBSESSED with helen and menelaus. their relationship is great. hunting dog x hawk.#menelaus telling telemachus about how his wife and boyfriend were well matched in the contest of wits as she tried to get them killed#the way helen talks is so. she must never stop watching from outside herself. she must always be careful.#she enters and is like menelaus make this assessment for me: can I speak freely?#bc if she chose for herself she Never would. she's had to watch her words too long.#TELL ME ABOUT A COMPLICATED WOMAN#anyway. wilson gives every character SUCH a distinct voice. it's awesome.
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In which Odysseus calls himself LOVING FATHER [Iliad-book 4]
SJDLKSJDLSDJSL listening to an audiobook of Iliad (Fagles translation) while I draw, and ODYSSEUS CALLS HIMSELF TELEMACHUS' LOVING FATHER-
I CAN'T WITH THIS MAN SDJSKLDJLS JDLSKDJKL
#The Odyssey#Iliad#Odyssey#Odysseus#Telemachus#HE MISSES HIS BOY SO MUCH???#HE TELLS AGAMEMNON OFF SAYING THAT???#Trojan War#THAT'S SO CUTE WTF#HE'S THE DOTING FATHER TROPE. THE ANNOYING DAD WHO WILL SCREAM- I LOVE MY SON-#AND THEN EMBARASSES SAID SON IN FRONT OF HIS FRIENDS
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no one wants my hyperfixation to return to something other people wanna talk about more than me tbh
#i have fic ideas if only i could get insane about greek mythology again#so tired of having to quarantine when i get insane about my ocs because it'd be Annoying to be insane about them in public#let me be insane about telemachus again so a very small subset of the mythology fandom will want to hear what i've got to say#i just need someone to Fix Me and i think this tv show could be it#can't wait to have actual conversations about my hyperfixation again it'd be so nice#i miss my wife tails#i miss her a lot#:/#like fr i've written SEVEN CHAPTERS of fics that no one will ever read or care about#if i could bring that energy to a fic about the odyssey???????#please god let me have this one win
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What do you like about the Odyssey? Besides some entertaining episodes (e.g. Circe or Calypso), I've never really been able to get into the Odyssey as a whole (I find the first 5 books especially dull). The Iliad really speaks to me more.
It's hard to really pinpoint what I like most about it but I love to talk about the Odyssey so I hope you like long posts hahaha
The first five books act as the exposition. When the Iliad ends, there's a general understanding that most of the surviving characters made it home. Menelaus and Helen have reunited, the catalyst for the Trojan War has been resolved. Agamemnon traversed the sea and made it back, and although he was killed by his wife Clytemnestra, there is no question about where he is; unlike Odysseus.
Telemachus has spent his entire youth without a father. When he finally decides to set out from Ithaca to find any leads on where Odysseus is, he is confronted with the fact that most everyone else has been accounted for. He sees Menelaus and Helen, the order of their kingdom, the comfort they have in each other and the bonds they have restored. Telemachus has known nothing but uncertainty, while his mother is forced to weave lies and deceptions to keep the suitors that plague their home at bay. The first five books really show how important one man can be when he is utterly lost, and what it would mean for everyone who loves him should he be found. These books also show the close interest that Athena, as patron of Odysseus, takes in his family. She steps into the chaos of Ithaca and gives Telemachus the inspiration to embark on his own journey, chasing the ghost of his still-living father.
When we finally reach Odysseus, he is not the same man that those who knew him in Troy described. They are the closest Telemachus can come to knowing what came of his father, but even they are separated by nearly a decade and the breadth of the sea. Penelope hasn't laid eyes on her husband in twenty years, there is no overestimating what that can do to a person's memory. Odysseus's first action is to cry. When finally Calypso is forced to allow Odysseus to leave, by order of Hermes, he makes his own raft and leaves at the first possible moment. He is fighting against the will of Poseidon, against the wrath he incurred, all alone. He has lost every single one of his men, every single person who could ever vouch for his identity, in a world where no one could recognize him, is gone. Despite this, he is still fighting to get back to Ithaca.
Odysseus is so utterly human in the text. When he is hosted by Alcinous, Odysseus asks the singer there to recount the story of the Trojan Horse. It's like landing at the doorstep of a stranger who graciously allows you to stay and immediately asking his DJ to play *your own* greatest hits - which in turn only upsets him. This also sets up the dramatic reveal of his identity (I like to imagine him looking around like, you guys remember this one? Yeah that's Me, I pinkie promise. Please give me 4000 drachmae and your best oarsmen (: ).
He recounts the story of how he got so utterly lost on the way back and one thing the Odyssey will tell you, to your face over and over again, is that Odysseus is a big time liar. But for some reason, his tale is so compelling it's hard to remind yourself of that when hearing it for the first time. Some points are so beyond baffling (like striking Polyphemus in the singular eye the poor sod has, and then once to the safety of his boat (which is on open water, the domain of said cyclops's father) loudly announcing his full gods-given name and mailing address, just in case anyone missed who it was) that it's like, yeah that was probably exactly what he did. This is the section of the story where we see Odysseus as he sees himself. This is his own reflection of the actions he made and the troubles that befell him because of it.
Odysseus is such a complex character that one of the epithets he is given is "polytropos", the many-faced or many-sided. Odysseus and his relationship to his own identity, which he can shed and don at any point that's convenient for him, is one of the main reasons I am obsessed with his story. This, and the exploration in an ancient text about what a close relationship with a deity, is something I am constantly thinking about.
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happy father's day i'm thinking about this outis line again
I always thought it was a bit out of pocket considering this isn't too long after the events of Canto III, even with how Outis was being harsher this Canto.
But I then I remembered that Outis' son is the same age as Sinclair.
Her son, who thinks that she died in the Smoke War (the in universe equivalent to the Trojan War as depicted in the Iliad and the Odyssey) because she hasn't been home in years. Her son who cannot cry out to her. And her son, who is currently in much the same position as Sinclair regarding his self-perception and ability to fight, as Telemachus refers to himself as "a weakling knowing nothing of valor" (Book 2 of the Odyssey, line number and exact wording depend on translation).
I think this line reflects more on Outis and her anxieties about her family thinking that she's dead, as well as a reference to Telemachus experiencing his own journey to manhood, much like Sinclair.
I think there's also things to be said for the parallels between Sinclair and Telemachus, even just the ones imagined by Outis. Hell's Chicken had her showing a very paternal worry over his diet (raise your hand if your dad has ever said you'll be short forever if you don't eat right). Overall, even though Sinclair and Telemachus only share the bones of a coming of age narrative, Outis is seeing connections there because she misses her family.
As with this one. Again, she's showing her hand more than she means to. Though she's talking to Dongrang, I think she's also talking to herself. Trying to reassure herself that home will always be waiting. Dongrang, however, decides not to return, but to pursue glory no matter who he hurts in the process. The Odyssey also contrasts the pursuit of glory with the desire to return home. Odysseus has to choose humility in order to return.
Outis has been keeping up a careful persona around us, but it's slipping. Her desire to return home is seeping through even as she tries to assert herself by clinging to the glory from a war that's long since ended.
#limbus company#outis lcb#outis makes me insane i need to bite something#outis is canto 11 going by release order... that's so far away#penelope and telemachus i need to think about them and see them#rotating them in my mind every day#and. i can't unpack homeric ideals of masculinity with how the odyssey treats telemachus' coming of age and#how that's going to influence outis' writing and how she treats sinclair. because that would take way too long#but y'know#that's another post. and that's also a post about gender. like. i can see the title now#Homeric Masculinity. Butchness. and The Meaning of Manhood: a Closer Look at Outis' Gender in Limbus Company#i title my shit like academic articles do not @ me#like. i know gender isn't really a factor in the city. but from a meta-textual level i think it's interesting and i'm a butch lesbian so#also this is a scheduled post. i am scheduling it for fathers day because i would not remember otherwise. so hi from the past
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The crew listens to Epic: the Musical.
MK's favorite song is Legendary.
Wukong identifies with Just a Man (not that he'll admit it).
Macaque likes Ruthlessness because he's an emo little stinker.
Sandy likes Open Arms (of course).
Tang and Red Son like Warrior of the Mind.
Pigsy really thinks the monkeys should take Luck Runs Out to heart.
Mei likes Keep Your friends close (a fun bop that belies danger underneath, just like her).
I have to be careful binging a new muscial (or in this case Saga) cus I end up playing each song on loop for hours. Opinions might change once the full and finished versions of later sagas are released.
I love all these hcs <3
Im imagining the gang likely sees/listens to Epic on the reccomendation of MK (who's currently on a Greek Mythology hyperfixation), and he gets them all to watch the full play - maybe in the future as a irl performance or film.
"Legendary" is SUCH an MK song. Both him and Telemachus growing up with the stories of someone dear to them and wanting to replicate their success. I could also see him really liking "Warrior of the Mind" with the theme of "some nobody" gaining the favor of a god (reminds you of anyone?) + SWK is infamously the personification of The Mind in Jttw so its a bonus. MK is smiling evily whenever a harsh plot twist occurs and his fam are shocked silent. >:3
Sun Wukong feels targeted personally with how many of the Epic songs remind him of his past. Ofc he starts crying halfway through "Horse and the Infant", and is inconsolable during "Just A Man" - verbally yelling "NO!" at the end. And like Nezha and Sandy is *silent* during Posideon's songs. Is super jazzed during the triumphant Ithaca Saga though! And feels mega catharic during "King" when Odysseus proves that he still rules to the suitors! He tries his best to hide how much the muscial is affecting him.
Macaque is a canon theatre Nerd - so he's already listened to the musical multiple times, but he's uber excited to see the live performance (and secretly bond with his found fam). Is rocking out during "Ruthlessness" and "Done For" in particular, so much so that he's fidgeting and dancing within his seat. He also vibes with "No Longer You" as someone with powers of prophecy. Is really amazed how much Wukong gets into the musical, but in retrospect understands *why*. Him and Wukong accidentally share a glance during "Would You Fall In Love With Me Again" and it gets a little awkward afterwards.
Mei is similarly excited to see anything with her bestie, so she tried her best not hear/see any spoilers ("it's a centuries' old story Mei" "Ssssh!! Dont tell me!"). She was shooketh by how hard the muscial goes. "Keep Your Friends Close" is her fave based on beat alone. She gets delightedly scared and amazed by consistent horse imagery used with Posideon (shameless link to my fave Animatic of "Ruthlessness").
Tang loves himself some historical and mythological adaptations, and is estatic that MK has given him an excuse to go see one! He's not as familar with Hellenic mytholgy as he is with Hindu-Chinese, but he knows enough lore to make the pog-champ face at every foreshadowing/reference. "Warrior of the Mind" really gets to him as a song about valuing your smarts. He also feels really empathetic for Calypso.
Pigsy only went cus Tang begged him. He feels super lost by the deep Greek lore he's missing, but he can get Odysseus's whole thing with trying to get home - but he def identifies more with Eurylochus. "Luck Runs Out" proves this to him. Later on he feels that the second-in-command was justified in having the soldiers rebel against Odysseus after so many losses (who wouldn't after losing all their friends?). Audibly gasps at the end of "Just A Man" - cus who would just do that!? Is a little freaked out by Circe turning the Athenian's into pigs - Eurylochus is depicted as partly-transformed, played by a pig-demon actor who was in super convincing human makeup in the previous sagas. He also gets protective feelings by-proxy seeing Telemachus's situation since the prince reminds him of MK. Is surprised by how much he likes the musical!
Sandy feels betrayed. This isn't like Disney Hercules at all! He does really enjoy Polites message in "Open Arms" and the later moments when the hopeful soldier's outlook is proven correct. He's a little overwhelmed at points though - he get eerily quiet during Posideon's scenes. He sobs joyfully when Odysseus finally makes it home and reunites with his family! :')
Because of this really good animatic/almost child-like depiction of Aelous by gigi; I can def see "Keep Your Friends Close" being Nezha's fave. It reminds Nezha of when he was far more carefree + has a solid lesson on about trust/"forbidden fruit". He also enjoys the more march-like tune of "Survive". He does however, freeze when he listens to Posideon's songs "Ruthlessness" and "Get in the Water" - he has been on the bad end of a sea god before and is quietly shtting himself for Odysseus.
Red Son goes in feeling like he could have stayed at home listening to the musical on his phone while working on a car instead. He is however blown away by the heavy themes and performances, especially "Warrior of the Mind" and Telemachus's situation - a prince forced to grow up fatherless and protecting his mother from suitors due to his dad pissing off a higher power? Hello?? Accidentally shrieks "YES!!!" when Athena becomes Telemachus's mentor/friend after "Little Wolf".
Princess Iron Fan I could see loving any song including Penelope (she empathizes with the Queen's situation hard), but unexpectedly enjoys "Keep Your Friends Close" - she's a fellow Wind Goddess at her core. It also reminds her of her not-so-little-anymore nephew.
DBK on the flip side loves the heavier songs like "Polyphemus" and "Ruthlessness". This man is a Posedion apologist. He does feels bad for Odysseus by the end though - man just wants to get back to his wife and kid dammit!
Bonus: The Spider Gang are watching the bootleg and Spider Queen agrees with Circe's whole girlboss attitude especially "Puppeteer". Scorpion Queen is Calypso in "Not Sorry For Loving You".
This got a little away from me - hope you enjoy!
#lmk hcs#lmk headcanons#epic the musical#lmk#lego monkie kid#lmk mk#qi xiaotian#sun wukong#six eared macaque#liu er mihou#lmk mei#long xiaojiao#lmk pigsy#lmk tang#lmk sandy#lmk red son#lmk nezha#lmk princess iron fan#lmk pif#lmk demon bull king#lmk dbk#lmk spider gang#lmk spider queen#lmk scorpion queen
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Every time in Legendary, after Telemachus sings ‘somebody tell me, come and give me a sign’ when Athena’s music plays in the background? I go wild. Every time. I love it so much, it is foreshadowing, and something that could be missed the first time around, but if you know her music it adds so much to it. In love with it all 10/10
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https://archiveofourown.org/works/27905779 The Odyssey by Penelope's point of view
https://archiveofourown.org/works/26047681 Penelope is a great woman and bends reality and makes me cry
https://archiveofourown.org/works/24162292 Odysseus wants Penelope, not Helen
https://archiveofourown.org/works/24003529 they have Han Solo Syndrome, your honor
https://archiveofourown.org/works/22865200 Telemachus has daddy issues
https://archiveofourown.org/works/20552240 honestly this woman is a saint I would've commitef murder if so mamy nosy bitches came to me
https://archiveofourown.org/works/17777750 tearbending at its finest
https://archiveofourown.org/works/6439561
https://archiveofourown.org/works/5812192
https://archiveofourown.org/works/1641122
https://archiveofourown.org/works/29405
https://archiveofourown.org/works/1093351 these two have too much to talk about
https://archiveofourown.org/works/13134261 Bromance but there's a clear lack of B
https://archiveofourown.org/works/14308278 Diomedian Compulsion or Cain instinct?
https://archiveofourown.org/works/30566642 this is surprisingly wholesome
https://archiveofourown.org/works/30876251 this man needs to quiet down his ass or the gods are not gonna leave him alone
https://archiveofourown.org/works/31285859 the lover of my lover is my lover in principle
https://archiveofourown.org/works/27188072
https://archiveofourown.org/works/37920250 mission impossible and (b)romance
https://archiveofourown.org/works/41162934 Odysseus, the ultimate blorbo of the gods
I literally went through the whole Diomedes/Odysseus AND the Penelope/Odysseus tag, but there might be some I missed. Hope you like these ones! I included some commentary on those I liked best upon seeing. No, I did not read all, but I wanted to make sure to give a vibe check before putting on my list.
YOU ARE A SAINT. HOLY SHIT. THANK YOU
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The Blood On Your Hands
CW: gore, blood, death
[i wrote this at 2 am so i apologize for any mistakes]
“Captain?”
Odysseus snapped out of his thoughts as footsteps approached him — footsteps he knew well.
Turning around, he greeted the two men with a smile. “Eurylochus. Polites.”
His best friend and second-in-command joined him at the ship’s rail, the wind caressing each of their faces and seawater landing in specks on their chitons.
Since they had left Troy weeks ago, Odysseus had been at the ship’s bow most of the time, looking out over the 600 miles of open sea to Ithaca. Most of the time, he wore a distant expression touched with longing.
All throughout the war, he had spoke of home. Now, he was finally going back.
But something was bothering him.
“What’s on your mind?” prompted Polites.
The captain sighed. “Just … thinking of home.” He turned back to face the sea, resting his elbows on the rail. “Of everyone we left back in Ithaca. Everyone I left. Penelope and Telemachus. My mother and father.” He glanced at Eurylochus. “Ctimene.”
At the mention of his wife’s name, Eurylochus’s lips curled up in a warm grin. “Ctimene.”
Polites laughed. “First the captain, now you? What is it with you two and your wives?”
That brought a chuckle from the other men.
They stood like that for a few moments, not wanting to shatter the peace. It wasn’t something they got a lot of, anyway.
Finally, Odysseus spoke. “Do you ever wonder what it would have been like if we hadn’t gone to war? If we had stayed home?”
Eurylochus shrugged. “Our lives would have been much easier.”
“We could have been with our families. Made new memories. Ten years, all gone to waste.” Odysseus shook his head, his eyes moistening. “I missed the first ten years of my son’s life. I was never there for him.”
Polites put a hand on his shoulder. “That’s not something you could have prevented. Time passes for all. Some are just less lucky than others.”
“Then we must be the unluckiest men alive.”
Eurylochus scoffed. “Tell me about it.” He looked behind him at the rest of the crew. “600 men. I’m surprised they’ll make it home in one piece, considering what the war did to our armies.”
“But what if they don’t?” Odysseus whispered. “Between here and Ithaca, it’s not going to be an easy journey. We don’t know what lurks within these waters. What if I can’t lead us all home alive? What if” — he choked on his words, tears threatening to fall.
Polites took Laertides’s hands in his own. “My friend. With you as our leader, we’re sure to make it back home. We trust you.”
Eurylochus put a hand on his shoulder. “Actually, Polites is right, Captain. If I had to choose any Ithacan to trust with my life, I’d choose you.” He smiled. “As long as we’re in your hands, brother, we’re in good hands.”
Odysseus smiled ruefully. “Thank you.”
Eurylochus clapped his shoulder. “Now, let’s get home. Full speed ahead.”
•••
Odysseus stared at the body, which lay unmoving in the sand before him.
Friend. Brother. Trust.
The pool of dark blood slowly grew larger, soaking the sand and staining it red.
We trust you.
Odysseus collapsed to the ground, dropping his sword with a thump. Faces flashed through his mind — faces of people he’d lost. People he’d let down.
600 men. We’ll make it home.
The crew. Polites. Eurylochus — but he had it coming, Odysseus thought. He brought this upon himself.
I’d choose you.
He looked away from his brother-in-law’s mutilated body, running his hand through his hair furiously. His fingers brushed over something silky. He removed it from his head and examined it.
Captain…
Hundreds of voices filled his ears. Screams of dying men, of people who had endured ten years of war to get back to their families, only to lose their lives during the journey back. Whispers of a dear friend, only to be muted out by a loud smash. Shouts of an otherwise trustworthy brother as he raged one final time. The voices got louder and louder, making Odysseus squeeze his eyes shut and press his hands to his ears — until they suddenly went silent.
And then the soft giggle of an infant.
The blood on your hands is something you can’t lose. All you can choose is whose.
Odysseus buried his face in his hands and gave in to the sobs.
What have I done?
#the blood on your hands#epic#epic the musical#epic: the musical#the odyssey#odyssey#odysseus#eurylochus#polites#da pancake#(i'm sorry)#fanfic#cw gore#tw gore#cw blood#tw blood#cw death#tw death
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"Ithaka by Adele Gaaras" AKA. I got Mindboggled by an Odyssey-inspired novel, get Boggled with me.
THis is just a little vent!! Do not harass this author or people who like this book! I'm not sharing this to necessarily hate on it but just wanted to share because...Mindboggle. (Also please note I have not read the book all the way through. BECAUSE OF SAID MINDBOGGLE. As I don't think it's good to "hate-read")
Also note, that the author says "it's not a version of Homer nor a retelling of the Odyssey, but a novel written under the influence of stories that I first read as a young child and that I've loved ever since."
Found this book in the "discarded" box at the library, probably should've taken that as a sign and since it was for free and no one else had taken it, I thought I'd grab it!
And I got excited because the book is supposed to take place during the years Odysseus is away and it's PENELOPE'S perspective. Penelope raising Telemachus and cute toddler moments? Her, Anticlea, Laertes, (Maybe even Ctimene!) trying to cheer each other up as a family? Her ruling? So many cool things to explore!
But then I started to read and it was okay at first... But it skipped 13 years, which saddened me as, like I said, I wanted "young mother and child bonding together" But I went along with it.
But then there were other moments I didn't really care for. Weird "bad mother-in-law" Anticlea, ENOUGH WITH THAT. It happens to Demeter already! Stop it! Penelope says that she'll be a mean mother-in-law someday as well as "No one will be good enough for Telemachus" (???), Euryclea has a granddaughter who is the "main character", has AGAMEMNON be the one to put Telemachus in front of the plow >:( and a couple other moments that felt off so to see if this was "worth the read", I went ahead and went to the end as I won't lie I really wanted the "Reunion moment" 🥹
And here comes the Mindboggle.
Penelope has an affair.
She has an affair... WITH FUCKING LEODES!!!
THAT'S THE GUY WHO BEGS FOR HIS LIFE BEFORE GETTING BEHEADED BY ODYSSEUS.
Honestly?? Like, I know it's supposed to be a "feminist" story. (says so on the reviews on the back) You never know with those if they're gonna villainize the male characters. I sadly was already expecting the whole "Even though text from the Odyssey states otherwise, Odysseus is clearly a womanizer"😮💨BUT AN AFFAIR?! WHAT IS FEMINIST ABOUT AN AFFAIR?! AND WITH LEODES?!?! WHY NOT MAKE A NEW CHARACTER?! A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON? Who's actually cool?
The worst part is? Odysseus is so fucking in love, as he should be. You would expect him to be "bad" to make her affair "okay". Especially as it kind of makes it out like he had "affairs" when it's known to someone with reading comprehension that he was SA'ed.
But he's complimenting her constantly, even as a beggar, and dotes on her and respects her. This novel ALSO makes Odysseus "nicer" and "polite" in an "I don't want to kill all these men but it's what I have to do". Which No! Let that man be PISSED. Get tf away from his wife and child! He can be an asshole and still adore his family!
This is supposed to be her introspecting during the morning after. Not explicit in any way but giving heads up anyways.
[...] she could not prevent herself from thinking of Leodes as Odysseus kissed her mouth and her hair and the soft places behind her ears.
"Is this hard for you, wife? Is it strange? There's no hurry...I'll be gentle. I'll wait until..."
"No,no...not strange. Kiss me again."
"But you're crying..."
"I can't help it. My feelings. I can't govern them, Odysseus."
(Page 354)
Like he's incredibly sweet. It makes it sadder because he's crying thinking about how much he missed her. BUT PENELOPE THINKS ABOUT HOW SHE'S CRYING BECAUSE SHE MISSES LEODES!!!
I couldn't stop thinking about Leodes. Remembering how it had been with him. And that made me cry. Odysseus didn't know. I don't think he knew. He thought the tears were for him. Tears of joy. Tears of passion.
"Cry, my sweet wife. Let out all the tears that lie within you."
"I'm so sorry...you deserve better than a sobbing woman after your journeyings. It will be better, I promise."
"Don't say sorry. There's no need. I understand what you are feeling."
(Page 355)
Like you're taking away from Penelope AND Odysseus from something that is so fucking important to their story! HER STORY!!! The fact that they love each other so fucking much!!!
Not only that but the Father/son reunion was very lackluster.
Lots of Argos content though. :'D
LIKE?!?!!? I'm just mindboggled. I don't necessarily "hate" this book. I'm more flabbergasted as I kind of find this whole situation funny. Although I am sad as I wanted moments of her being a young mom, her being with family, her ruling. etc. I just...wanted to VENT!
Again! Don't be mean to the author or people who like this book! I just had to vent about my mind getting boggled for my sanity!
#(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻#how fucking dare you do that to Penelope?! She's cool af being a sneaky lady who's just as shady as her#husband that she loves so much and loves her as much in return!#I don't know how I feel about this book. It's actually strange. like that expression that Shrek has is probably the best way to describe it#rant#odyssey rant#idk I want to have this tagged for my OWN tags but I don't necessarily want to bog down the other tags with this.#Mad rambles#vent#greek mythology retelling#retelling#shot by odysseus#essay
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Okay, hear me out. Warrior cats. Epic the musical.
Odysseus - FireStar
Athena - BlueStar
Polities - GrayStripe
Diomedes, Agamemnon, etc./Crew - ThunderClan patrol guys (BrakenFur, DustPelt, ThornClaw, etc.)
Penelope - SandStorm
Eurylochus - BrambleClaw
Aoelus - Uhh, MorningFlower???
Poseidon - TigerStar 1
Polyphemus - Scourge/bloodclan
Telemachus - SquirrelFlight or LeafPool
Hector - BrokenStar??
Baby that Odysseus is forced to kill - Uhhh, uhm- I uh- @deity-of-moffs YOU CHOOSE
Hermes - TawnyPelt, CrowFeather, or FeatherTail
Circe - SpottedLeaf
Winions - WindClan
Did I miss a character?
#warrior cats#wcue#epic the musical#I love epic the musical so fucking much#warriors#odysseus#the odyssey#odysseus epic#I’m not tagging everyone#warriors au#warrior cats au
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Do you know the approximate ages of all the main characters in The Iliad?
Hi anon! I haven't looked into this topic before tbh, and I feel like researching it thoroughly will take up a lot of time, so these are just off the top of my head!
Achilles was a teenager when Agamemnon called the men of Hellas to sail to Troy. By the time of the Iliad, he must be in his late 20s.
Patroclus is described as being slightly older, and therefore wiser, than Achilles and is sent to Troy to counsel him. So he must be in his early 30s in the Iliad.
Ajax is Achilles' cousin, and is said to have been trained by Chiron too. But I'm not sure if they trained at the same time? Telamon, Ajax's father, is the elder brother of Peleus, so if we assume that both these men had their kids at about the same age, then Ajax would be at least a few years older than Achilles. Maybe Ajax was sent to Chiron first, and then Achilles followed. I'm really not sure haha. But I would say he must be about mid to late 30s.
The sacrifice of Iphigenia is one of those myths that not everyone accepts as part of the Iliad, but I am one of those that believe that it should be read into the greater myth of the Iliad and the Epic Cycle (for various reasons that I will not go into now lol). Agamemnon and Clytemnestra had four kids, and Iphigenia was the oldest, who at the start of the Trojan war was at marrying age (let's say about 15). That means that Agamemnon must have been at the very least in his mid 30s when the war started (although men generally married older than the women). So in the Iliad he should be at least mid to late 40s.
Menelaus is Agamemnon's younger brother, so.... let's say he's late 30s, early 40s when the Iliad starts? Give or take?? My impression is that he's a quite a bit younger than Agamemnon but I don't remember a specific passage about it right now.
Odysseus left Ithaca after Penelope had just had Telemachus, so that would have been in the first or second year of their marriage. He must have been at least in his 20s when that happened, let's say mid to late twenties. He must be mid to late 30s in the Iliad.
Nestor is described as having seen two generations of men, and that he's still ruling as king in the third age, so I would assume he's FUCK old lmao. Probably 70s-80s in the Iliad, I would say.
Hector is Priam's oldest son by Hecuba, and he has 19 siblings by the same mother. The youngest son, Polydorus, is old enough to meet Achilles on the battlefield in the Iliad. I'm not sure in which order the children were born, but if we assume that Hector has at least a 10 year age difference with Polydorus, and that Polydorus is at least 15 in the Iliad, then we're already looking at a man who is in his mid to late 20s at the very least. But he's most definitely much older than that, because...
Helen's daughter, Hermione, is quite young when Helen leaves with Paris, but I'm not sure how old exactly. What we do know is that Helen spends 10 years in Troy before the Achaeans arrive, and then there's 10 more years of the war, so at the time of the Iliad she must be... late 30s? At least? And Paris is probably around the same age as her. And if Paris is in his late 30s, and he's Hector's younger brother, then Hector is even older than him. Which means that Hector is probably in his early 40s.
Priam has a ton of children, and he is generally described in the Iliad as a kindly and mild-mannered old man, so I would place him about Nestor's age. Virgil in his Aeneid has Priam be in his 80s when Troy is sacked, and I think that estimation is correct.
I think these are the main characters?? Don't think I've missed anyone lol. As I said, these are off the top of my head so if anyone has any corrections or additions they're welcome to add them <3
#the iliad#homer's iliad#we really go into fucky territory with some of these i think#many contradictory accounts over Hecuba and how many children/sons she had#i also didn't mention andromache and briseis bc there's not much to suggest their ages i don't think? other than them being quite young#i would say mid to late twenties in the iliad#given that andromache's only child is a baby and i thiiiiink briseis had been freshly married when the achaeans sacked lyrnessus?#anywho feel free to correct me if i'm wrong!#tagamemnon
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ik you've talked about it before but tumblr blog search on mobile sucks ass so if it's not too much of a bother could you redirect me to your posts on why you dislike emily wilson?
i've never made a post on it. but, here you go:
as a translator? i have no issues with her. her translations are pretty good. so her 'work' i don't have a problem with. don't get me wrong, sometimes i think she toes that dangerous line of 'women good. men bad. feminism.' black and white line very finely. it's a lot more subtle than most modern classicsts but yKNOW.
my issue comes from her introduction to the odyssey. so it's her introduction. her own thoughts. not a translation of something. or outside influence. HER introduction. she says:
The second is piled high with newly acquired treasure, brought by blustering, self-pitying Menelaus.
As Menelaus pompously declares
... we meet the beautiful and frighteningly intelligent Helen back home in Sparta, with her wealthy, blustering, and rather less intelligent husband, Menelaus.
...and the rich, narcissistic, uxorious Menelaus.
she then, in book 4, translates the original text in which menelaus is NONE of these things. the only thing he's guilty of really, is the rich thing. cause telemachus is all like 'damn bro ur loaded'. but menelaus is not arrogant about it. he's not smug. he's not narcissistic. he literally says like 2 lines later that he would give away most of his wealth if it meant those who died at troy could come home.
'self-pitying' WHERE?! he cries because he feels GUILTY. the tears are not for him. they are the for the men who died at troy. i'm not getting quotes because it's literally in book fucking 4. he is NOT feeling sorry for himself he is MAD at himself for troy. the only thing i can THINK where he even links his tears to himself is because he says something like, 'every time i think of them i cry because i miss them all' or smth like that. he's not crying for HIM.
'rather less intelligent husband' - you know my feelings on this. menelaus is not stupid. helen is just very smart. and THATS FINE. i love helen being the brains, i'm not against a smart woman and her husband not being as smart. but like. because he doesnt recognise telemachus straight away? or the bird omen? he's stupid? really. we're gonna measure his WHOLE intelligence on that?
'uxorious'. menelaus loves his wife and that's pathetic and funny apparently? tell me. does she describe odysseus this way? hektor in the new iliad translation? i dont think so. 'excessive love their wife' that's what uxorious means. oh im sorry. forgiving ur wife and building a relationship with her and trying to move on together and being nice to her .... that excessive now??? thats??? bad???????
she literally takes menelaus' shining moments in the odyssey. him feeling guilty and remorseful. him showing how haunted he is by the war. him caring and loving helen despite everything. the fact that he is a compassionate. kind. loving man (in comparison to most homeric men) ----- and uses them to insult him. and it just GENUINLEY baffles me. because she wrote that introduction. and then four books later is ENTIRELY proven wrong? im so-----
dont get me wrong. some of this is just very pettty 'you're wrong about menelaus' anger. but some of it is BAFFLEMENT at the fact that she has this in her introduction, those are HER thoughts. and then when you actually get to the text of the odyssey from homer. she is wrong. cause she can't change those greek words too much. translation is a tricky mistress, sure. but she cant go and say 'then menelaus didnt care for those men' because that's just outright WRONG. she has to translate, as faithfully as she can, whats there. and whats there is NOT what she claimed in the introduction.
#negative //#long post //#i used this as an argument in my thesis#i feel like the 'less intellgient husband' quip is that like. men bad women amazing thing she does sometimes#when it can be. 'woman is amazing and smart. and man is not as intelligent but not a complete fucking loser'#is menelaus perfect? nooooo and i would never claim him to be#but dont use his actual positive attributes as INSULTS?! use the actual things wrong with him SDFGHJK#literally calls him a 'rich simp' and for that he's the worst man in the odyssy ever
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oh shit IT'S OUT IN MY TIMEZOME
right. i'm gonna liveblog. spoilers below
oh god the voice acting. right off the bat it's so much better than in the snippet
i've got to the end of the snippet part and i'm scared to go further
POLITES (i screamed out loud at 4am glad i'm home alone) (i was hoping he was going to be there but also OH NO) POLITEEEEEES
THE SOFTNESS IN ODY'S VOICE "Polites" OHHHHHHHHH
nylon strings spotted
"greet the world with open arms greet the world with open arms" POLITES BABY I MISS YOOUUUUUUUU
"Polites..." again so soft and quiet i'm gonna cry
GOD FUCKING DAMNIT ANTICLEA IS HERE (i was pretty certain she was going to be here but still) (i'm scared to hit play again) (Odysseus heartbreak incoming)
SHE DOESN'T SEE HIM
"I took too long and ventured too far" oh Odysseus 😭😭😭😭
"waiting... waiting..."
"Bye, mom" i can't do this anymore
there are 20 seconds of the song left what else do you got in store Jorgenator
oh just the chorus. but he's Screaming it this time (ow)
"Your past is always close behind, down in the Underworld" thank gods we're done i hope we don't receive any more bad news from the prophet (foreshadowing)
i relistened to the first song from start to finish and isn't it unfair that the blaming voices of the soldiers addressed him directly while the two people he actually loves couldn't see him?
👇why is this the emoji my phone suggested?
alright. let's go meet the prophet
i'm a creature of habit but this voice is growing on me
"But it's no longer you" oooooh and the spiraling begins
"I see your palace covered in red" CONTEXT Terisias
TERISIAS PLEASE WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PUT IT THIS WAY do you really not see that man is the same guy in front of you or are you just fucking with him
"WHO????" holy shit
and he goes with the same song again and i can't make out of the choir is singing words or not
Terisias does NOT elaborate. it's better this way for the drama (do you think he did it on purpose to get Odysseus worked up and angry enough that he gets to his Monster phase sooner?)
MONSTER let's go
"Do I need to change" there.
trying really hard not to make a poop joke
"I'm the only one who's line I haven't crossed" There! It clicked!
We already heard most of this song but MAN the voice actingghhhh
and the infant line like is just as chilling but the buildup is more punchy this time
"Then I'll become the Monster" ALRIGHT idk how to talk about singing but his voice is. sharp? like a blade. ready to kill. dare i say ruthless
"Penelope, Telemachus" YEAH that's who we're doing it FOR (i fight for us)
and ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.
hoooooo boy it took me 50 minutes to listen to 3 songs. i'm glad i didn't wait for the listening party because i got to pause a lot and savor it. savor the suffering. yeah
#epic the musical#the underworld saga#epic the underworld saga#epic the musical spoilers#the underworld saga spoilers#fia.post
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