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queer-ragnelle · 8 months

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i’m new to arthuriana but love your posts nonetheless

i am just curious about the many references to gawain sleeping with so many people when, to my understanding, in sir gawain and the green knight he specifically breaks this promiscuous behaviour and makes sure he doesn’t sleep with the wife of the duke

(i apologize if this is a stupid question!)

hello anon!

welcome to arthuriana and thank you so much for the kind words. this is not a stupid question at all! the truth is gawain is nothing if not inconsistent between texts haha. he's different from other knights such as lancelot who pines solely for guinevere across text after text, in that it seems every author wanted to create their own special gal for gawain. he therefore has numerous women attached to him, and when readers try to reconcile those many texts into a single story thread, it gives the impression our mans gawain gets around! (and he does!) i have several examples here to illustrate this so i'll put it below a cut.

for all the textual variance, sir gawain and the green knight is the exception that proves the rule—meaning that it's perhaps the only text in which gawain is abstinent. we know this because one of the five virtues attributed to the five points of his pentacle crest on his shield is chastity.

furthermore, on the wife's second seduction attempt, gawain pleas his own inexperience with "love" (ie: women).

whether or not that's true is up for debate, but it's worth mentioning, as it's a departure from other texts where his virile prowess is well-known, and in the knight of the two swords, he openly boasts about his own attractiveness and popularity. (humble guy, that gawain!)

there are several examples of gawain's reputation with the ladies preceding him and actually benefitting his odds of getting laid. one of my favorites is from lancelot part II in the vulgate. gawain had just cured his brother agravaine of an illness and agravaine's amie basically wingwoman's her sister.

goated of her. so gawain pencils it in on his calendar. later, he locates the castle, sneaks in, and succeeds in bedding the maiden. she's not named here, although malory later refers to her as "the lady of lys," and accredits her as the mother of gawain's three sons, (although the couple never formally wed).

among the strangest of examples is the middle english text the carle of carlisle, in which the carle brings gawain to the bedchamber and orders him to make out with his wife. but things quickly heat up...

so the carle stops gawain from outright cuckholding him, then leads gawain to his daughter's chambers, gives them his blessing, and locks them inside. at the end of the text, gawain marries her.

now i would be remiss not to mention my beloved the wedding of sir gawain and dame ragnelle. i think it's notable that ragnelle specifically asks for gawain by name, much like the lady of lys did (according to her sister and her warm reception of him).

now the conclusion of this poem brings us to another theme of gawain's which ties into his many partners, and that is his consistent subservience to ladies. he breaks the curse on ragnelle by granting her "sovereignty" in the relationship. this seems to be another aspect of character which sets gawain apart from other knights, as this is not a chaste expression of courtly love, but a precursor to fornication, and draws the attention of strong-willed ladies, such as ragnelle, with whom he is "a coward," or according to the translation notes, "submissive."

then again in roman van walewein, he's already famous by the time he meets his ladylove, ysabele, and whilst tied up in her father's prison, he leaves the decision of his own life in her hands.

which then results in their coming together because this is a gawain story and he always gets the girl.

even in the post vulgate, which we can all agree portrays every single character at their absolute worst (and is therefore invalid<3), gawain's choice of words consistently upholds the lady's desires above his own. at first, gawain intended wingman for pelleas by pretending he, pelleas, was dead to begrieve arcade. he discovers instead that she's elated by pelleas's supposed passing, so she and gawain fall in love. but even after admitting his feelings, he still takes great pains to frame the final crossing of that line as her choice, and only relents when she makes her intentions plain.

he might also just like it when women boss him around if his treatment from orgeluse in parzival by wolfram von eschenbach is any indication.

similarly to the knight of two swords, in parzival, gawain is aware of his fame, fosters it, and then employs his orgeluse brain worms as a motivation for sparing lives instead of like...morality.

i think what's particularly interesting about gawain's relationship history is that many of his partners are named, whereas it's pretty common for damsels and maidens in medieval texts to exist without identities of their own. there are so, so many named, interesting, fully developed women linked to gawain, it's actually pretty awesome! here are a few more:

lunette in yvain: knight of the lion by chrétien de troyes...

amurfina in the crown by heinrich von dem türlin...

bloiesine in the 4th perceval continuation by gerbert de montreuil...

marjorie in gawain and marjorie by oscar fay adams (if we extend our search through the 20th century!)...

and on and on forever! so in conclusion, gawain has been pulling bitches for many hundreds of slutty, slutty years, and from what modern retellings i've read, authors have no intention of interrupting this trend. i hope that helps clear things up somewhat. thanks for the ask!

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overthinkingtaleblr · 2 years

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what about jane/janice.... john, jane... johnny, janice, yknow??

Oooh Janice and Jane do work… I was also considering Guinevere since I remember Shoobaqueen getting around the “two Jennies” hole by having one be “Ginny”. But I can’t remember which one and while I like her doing it, it feels like my method of doing things would get things muddled up.

So the names I was considering are like. Other J-names or G-names or other royal family names.

OKAY WAIT I DID SOME RESEARCH AND THIS EXTRA THING MAY BE MORE IMPORTANT THOUGH—

So Johnny Toast is a member of the Royal family, right? And the royal family frequently names themselves after previous queens and kings? Well, John is actually a really infamous name for the British royal family, with the only recent member I can find going as “Johnnie” for this reason— and he STILL contributed to this taboo. So King John (the first?), the one who signed the Magna Carta, was known for being exceptionally cruel during his reign. See, he signed the Magna Carta because he was So terrible, including ordering the death of his innocent nephew, that his subjects rose up and Forced him to sign it, basically a document saying royals were not above the law. He immediately tried to take it back, launching the country into a civil war that lasted after his death. Prince Johnnie, on the other hand, was Queen Elizabeth the 2nd’s uncle, and he’s known as the “Lost Prince” because when his condition of epilepsy became severe, he was hidden from the public eye. He was also almost entirely separated from his parents and brothers, which sucks, before dying of a seizure in 1919, with the public only being notified of his condition then. So Johnny was basically given a taboo name, which I’m sure only made the rest of his family soooo happy—

However— in the original source I read, “King John I has a negative historiography, perhaps only surpassed by that of ‘Bloody’ Mary…” which now makes me think… Jeez, Toast uh... Johnny Toast and Mary as a couple is just. Two of the most cursed names in the royal family of Britain pairing up, huh? I wonder how happy his family was with his marriage? I wonder if that’s part of the reason why he stopped talking to his family but was easily accepted back? (Also it’s pretty likely Toast was introduced to Judaism through Mary I can’t believe I never considered that 🤔)

You could also argue that Gavin comes from “Gawain” from King Arthur, but there’s also a famous British evolutionary embryologist named Sir Gavin Rylands de Beer. Since I hc their dad as a bio-based chemist, I could see his dad thinking of another scientist when naming him. On that note, there’s also John Dalton, who introduced atomic theory to chemistry… and did heavy enough research into color-blindness for it to be called “Daltonism” in several languages. At this rate I might try to name ex-Jenny Toast after another British molecular-based chemist… So that opens Mary (Mary Somarville) [including this to include this I’m Not making any more Maries], Kathleen (Kathleen Lonsdale FRS), Marjory (Marjory Stephenson), Rose or Rosalind (Rosalind Franklin), aaaand Anne (Anne McLaren FRS) off the top of a quick google search… But I really like Janice so I might be this close to breaking my own idea I just made up.

“Don’t you think you’re overthinking this—“ YES.

#Heads up i did no further research outside of name and general study if any of them are horrible people lmk but ill do more research anyways #taleblr #Jenny Toast (Sister)#Toast Family #overthinking taleblr #taleblr headcanons

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metmuseum · 1 year

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Appliqué with Diomedes and Andromache. 4th century CE. Credit line: Purchase, J. Paul Getty Trust, and Mr. and Mrs. Michael Jaharis, Marjorie de G. Litchfield, Gawain McKinley, Shearson, and Nicholas S. Zoullas Gifts, 1989 https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/255905

#aesthetic #art #abstract art #art museum #art history #The Metropolitan Museum of Art #museum #museum photography #museum aesthetic #dark academia

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southsuns · 4 years

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SINCE ONE PERSON ASKED

system relationships with the commander system! including some guild bros and non guild but close friends

bloduewedd or blue. they’re the closest to an original the system has, and the host! mostly, they’re around for diplomacy. they’re very soft in battlefield situations and only really good with a bow, so don’t do much fighting, but they get along with people best of everyone around. they’re very forgiving. guild friends include: caithe, canach, taimi, no opinion on: thackeray, zojja, kasmeer, marjory, rox disliked people include: rytlock (there really isnt anyone else they dont get along with well within the guild) looks up to: eir stegalkin possible lovers?: canach, after a few years

branwen (call them winnie and they’ll take your eye out). they started out as something of a persecutor but they’re now a protector - they NEVER got to see the dream in a good light. their time in the dream was fear and hate, and when they were born, their wyld hunt was (and still is) to protect blue. it angered them. their whole existence was pain and was about other people they didn’t know for a long time. they took it out on themself, and after watching their comrades die, on other people. they isolated themself trying to protect the system, because you cant grieve in war, and if you don’t have friends.. who is there to grieve? trahearne’s hope in them was a major turning point, and his death is what really set them on becoming better to themself and the rest of the system. now, they still don’t like talking to people, and they’re terrible at comforting people, but they’re the best at combat and use what they know and what they’ve learned to do good. guild friends: rytlock, trahearne (when he was alive), kasmeer no opinion: marjory, caithe dislikes: gorrik, taimi, canach, thackeray looks up to: eir, rytlock, imperator smodur, trahearne possible lovers: rytlock,,

gawain is a trauma holder. she split around when blue started seeing people die. branwen was still a persecutor. blue couldn’t deal with it alone and after being captured by courtiers was when gawain first showed. she fronted through.. the whole thing, pretty much. she made a comeback through maguuma, along with branwen, and bloduewedd was largely not present for maguuma. gawain is also one of the major influences in helping branwen out of self harm cycles. she has a strong connection to the dream because listening to the dragon and to the nightmare required a strong sense of self and a strong tie to the mother to get to (also why she’s a chick and cares so much about ventari’s teachings - she was heavily modeled after the mother). she’s made a strong comeback through the icebrood saga because of jormag. guild friends: kasmeer, canach, braham no opinion: taimi, rox, zojja, thackeray dislikes: rytlock, every single imperator, and cadeyrn (They Interacted, sadly) looks up to: the mother, ventari, caithe possible lovers?: nope! she’s aroace and still not coping well enough with her trauma on her own to function well in a relationship anyways

#the commander system #oc posting #branwen gw #blue gw #bloduewedd gw #gawain gw #gawain

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whybotheranyway-blog · 6 years

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I was drafting this kanina pa. Pero i think hindi na to okay sana para magblog ako.. Dito na lang.. Masyadong mabagal ang net ngayon at di ako makapasok sa tumblr. So dito na lang..hindi ko alam kng huli na ba talaga to or me susunod pa.. Basta pagkatapos kong isend to hindi kita ibablock hihintayin ko na ikaw gagawa non.. Maraming salamat, ilang milyang thank you sa lahat ng na extend mo, efforts mo, love mo kng meron man, at pagtitiis.. I did appreciate all of that.. Lalo na sa effort.. Un talaga ang na appreciate ko ng husto, kasi mahirap sa part mo pero nagagawan mo ng paraan.. Thank u sa lahat.. Sa love na kahit hindi ganln kalalim pero naramdaman ko din minsan na mahal mo koIm sorry, sa lahat ng mali ko.. Sa lahat lahat.. Lalo na sa recent na to.. Masyado na syang matagal, nakalimutan ko na din ang pakiramdam ko nun kng bakit nagawa ko un.. Alam kong mali, naging mas mali kasi nakalimutan ko na nman sabihin sayo na nagpm ako ke pearl..gawa ng na overwhelmed ako na naging okay tayo and umayos hanggang ngayon.. Mali kasi ang way, pero uulitin ko way ko un to catch ur attention, nasa point kasi ako non na baka me usapan kayo ni karyl then ganon ang usapan mejo me clue lang ako pero dahil sa atat ko na malaman kung tama ba ang hinala ko si pearl ang naisip ko na ichat non, kasi sa pagkaalala ko lagi mo syang nakakasama..naalala ko na nag away kayo pero di ko maalala kng un ba na time oo hindi ganon katagal ang two years pero sorry ang maalala ko lang okay kayo and i was hoping na sabihin nya sayo then ippm mo ko.. Un lang nman ang point dun.. Pero after a week ka pa ata nagpm.. Hindi ko na naalala kasi binura ko ang chat ko, kasi kng nakita kong andun un sasabihin ko nman kaso nalimutan ko na and again fault ko.. Naging mas mali kasi sobrang matagal na bago naalala and nalaman.. Madami ng ngyari..ung mga panahon na un nasa verge ako ng eagerness malaman kng okay pa ba tayo o hindi na.. Un lang nman ang point ko dun.. Either magpaatik ako na student sana ako non ang makisuyo na sabihin sayo na ganito o ganyan.. Kasi sure ako na baka pag studyante ako mas lalo ako iignore..kaya naisip ko na ganon na lang at least alarming and maintriga xa sasabihin nya sayo tapos mag aask kng kng anong acct. Hindi ko naisip na gumawa pa ng new acct kasi ang point ko dapat malaman mo na ako. Un lang nman un.. Hindi ako mahilig manira ng tao.. Ung ginawa ko kai budik, ibang usapan un.. Bago pa man nagreact si karen mahaba na ang chat ko about budiks affair and about sa anak nya.. Un lang nman sinabi ko..dahil un sa ginawa nya kai chubby.. Ilang sipa na din ang hinawa nya bago ko ginawa un madami akong pinalagpas.. Matagal ako mapuno ja, ung time na un ilang days hindi kumain ung aso kaya worried ako and naisip ko un.. I didnt regret doing that.. Un ang totoong sira kasi sinabi ko lahat.. Intentionally.. Gumawa ako ng acct para gawin ang bagay na un.. Pero ung sayo para lang un sana maisip mo na andito pa ko at ano na me pag uusapan pa ba o wala na.. Kng gusto ko talaga masira ka simpleng iisang pic lang tapos na.. Kahitpa nagreply si pearl di ko na din i entertain un.. Siguro relief ang mafeel ko kng nakareply xa kasi aware ka na ako ung nagpm sayo. Pero iba ang ngyari ngayon.. Nagmuka akong masama.. Kng sana un ang intention ko alwaya kami gausap ni marjorie non, pede ko magshare sa iya kai ga ask xa.. Pero akong tubag wala mam praning ra na si liwai friends ra ming jaja and among topic puro lang bayi.. Wala ako kahit isa na gishare an about the whole thing kundi si krizza lang that time now si jaja.. People na masaligan ko.. Ang ginashare ko kai jaja slight lang.. Kai krizza hindi lahat pero alam nya everytime di tayo okay pero selected pa din ang ginalabas ko na storya.. Kasi gabilin japon ko gamay na percent kai private bya ko na tao..yes gashare ko pero hindi lahat..Sorry sa ginawa ko.. Pero alam kong mali un.. Gusto ko lang ijustify ang sarili ko..un lang ang tanging rason.. Wala ng iba.. Alam kong mahirap xa idigest pero alam ng Dyos na un ang point ko.. Alam kong masama.. Kasi nakakasakit.. Itaya ko ang life ni lola, nanay, and duha ka dogs..mawala sila kng gatikal ko.. I cant put my life into this kasi iisipin mong mas okay na ako ang mawala.. Mga mahal ko ung mga un.. And alam mong buhay ko sila lalo na si lola.. Hindi ko sinasabi yan para maging okay tayo.. Tama ng ilabel mo ko na cheater ako and sinungaling..pero paki exempt ang mga bagay na hindi ko gawain.. Alam mo ko kng gaano ako kachoosy sa mga tao na nakakasalamuha ko, i dont even share miski ginakainisan ko pa ang topic kasi when that person shared that to me, malaking bagay sa akin nag nagtrust xa sa akin.. Wala sa akin kng gaano kadami ang amount ng nalaman kong baho ng isang tao, na appreciate ko lang na of all people sa akin nagtrust..isipa ning kai marjorie na issue now, sa akoa lang xa nag open about that guy na kachat nya.. Kasi noon pa gashare na xa kai romy pa pero kahit kai liwai wala ko kawakal..wala ko ginajustify na okay kai gaana xa, iyaha man ng life syay maguol ana if ever.. Kng me gisharean man ko sa imo lang to.. Wala na iban..like you, madami ka gishare, nakakalimutan ko na amg iba pero miski isa ka tao wala koi giwakalan ana..kasi alam ko na nagtrust ka sa akin.. Sa limang taon kahit nagkalabuan tayo noon nakabati ka ba na naay nag gawas? Wala miski nahurt ko wala gid ko gawakal.. Kasi ibang usapan na un.. Ung affair natin malayo sa usapan ng mga issue mo sa kai ganito, sa kai ganyan and etc..Sa issue ni to jong na nagcheat xa kai manang, of all people sa akoa lang xa nagshare kai daw mag explode na xa.. Until now di alam ng lahat na bago pa nagkabulabugan alam ko na lahat.. Kaya ganon nya ko palangga kasi once daw nasaligan nya ko.. Nag gaan daw iyang paminaw that time and nagpasalamat xa nga nag keep quiet ako.. So as manang lynet sa lahat kami na magpipinsan ako lang sad ng ginawakalan nya about sa hinanakit nya sa family namon.. Hanggang ngaun kng down xa, kasi once na sinabi sa akin na wag ilabas miski pag unsaon kog puga ana di ko mustorya.. Kasi hindi ako mahilig magsumpay kada mai topic lalo na kng issue.. Tama lang sa akoa ang maminaw, miski opinion ko wala ko gahatag.. Mas okay ang manahimik kesa magdada ko dira kag ako ang dakdakan kng magworst ang tanan.. When my friend maimai got pregnant na nman sa akoa lang xa nagconfide kasi ibang lalaki na nman ang nakaano sa kanya.. Nag 5 na lang si yumi hindi alam ng circle na alam ko na naga exist si yumi ang alam lang nila pamangkin ni mai un, ako rai nakabalo na anak mya to.. Now lang nalaman ng lahat kasi nasa canada na amd nagpost si maimai about it sa insta.. Dun lang nila nalaman na anak xa ni mai.. Paspas kaayo nakachat si jessi sa akoa na ani ana.. Ana ra ko wala sad koi alamag kai wala mi gacheka ni maimai.. Pero matagal ko ng alam.. Kaya masakit sa akin na pag isipan mo ko ng iba.. Un lang ang intention ko.. Naisip ko lang yan ishare kasi hindi ko man kinacount ung mga tao na nagtrust sa akin.. Nag isip kasi ako kng ganon ba ko ka sama.. Sana kng ways ko talaga yan sana madami ng nasira dahil ganyan ako..pero maling mali amg iniisp mo sa akin.. Mga kagagahan para lang kausapin mo ko.. Hindi ko alam kng galit ba ko nyan o confused.. Kasi di ko maalala na nagalit ako sayo.. Sa tagal na hindi ko na maalala ang pakiramdam.. Basta ang maalala ko lang maghihintay ako kahit alam ko na ang ending at dahil atat ako ginawa ko un.. Sorry my.. Hindi ko gawain yan gaya ng iniisip mo..Pagkatapos mong basahin to iblock mo na ako..as mainam kng ikaw ang magblock.. Lalayo na ko.. Hindi na ko magclark.. Kasi me idea ka na dun..basta makalayo lang sakto na.. This time wala ng balikan to.. Wag mo na ko hanapin.. Hindi mo na ko mahahanap.. Hindi ako magbabago ng acct pero please wag ka na lang din magparamdam.. Gusto ko lang iklaro ang paningin mo sa akin.. Hindi ako masamang tao.. Alam kong mali ang ginawa ko.. Pero wala akong intention na sirain ka.. Hindi ko nga nasisira si liwai despite of all.. Kng ano man ang naishare ko sayo ko lang nashare un, about aa treatment nya sa nanay.. Marunong din nman ako mag isip.. Alam kong mas masasaktan ako pag ginawa ko yan sayo.. Dahil mahal kita.. Downfall ko din pag bumagsak ka.. Mahal kita pero hindi ko din matanggap na sa limang taon ganon mo lang ako kng ijudge.. Hindi ako masamang tao.. Marunong lang akong gumanti pag naagrabyado pero matagal ako bago mapuno.. First time ko lang din nagawa un ung kai budik..failed lang kasi mahal xa masyado ni karen.. Pero at least aware si karen kng ano xa.. Maa gilove pa xa pero gibilin nya lang gyapon si karen.. Wala ka nman ginawa sa akin para ganyanin kita.. Kaya sana kahit hirap ka tanggapin mo ung rason ko kasi un lang ang rason ko.. Hindi ko need mag make ng story para pagtakpan amg ginawa ko.. Un lang ang totoo.. Itaya ko si lola ko sina.. Basta yan ang totoo. Ung blog ko pag sa airport na ko maya aayusin ko.. Mahina talaga ang data ko..mai buburahin lang ako dun.. Sayo na un.. Buburahin ko lang ung mga storyang hindi na okay balikan.. Pasensya na.. Masakit man sa akin ang gawin yan pero need para makamove on ka agad.. Salamat sa lahat..💛

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