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swordsandarms · 2 months

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"Why did Rhaegar leave a whole THREE Kingsguards with Lyanna? Why did he leave Jaime, A CHILD, to PROTECT his family? Why wasn't Arthur, a DORNISH man, with Elia?"

These or other individual questions about the Kingsguards during the Rebellion era keep coming up every now and then. Usually, it concerns questioning Rhaegar's motivations, sometimes even Jaime's morality or culpability, as well as the morality of said Kingsguards.

But I was having a conversation with some fans and it comes down to the same issue: no one considers the Targaryen politics at the time, and fragment these circumstances in shallow bits and pieces, naturally, coming down to "there's no good explanation for this!"

Everyone hates that these two Targaryen men have genuine character complexity, especially in rapport with eachother: Rhaegar and Aerys.

Let's go over the Kingsguard at the end of Aerys' reign, and actually consider allegiance and what the mean, and how those would actually easily explain a lot-

Jon Darry, Darry cousin: unclear loyalty, when it comes down to the Aerys-Rhaegar conflict. Darrys are without a doubt Targaryen men, but we don't know if and who they would choose. Darrys are most of all connected with Viserys and Rhaella, who are very sheltered from the rest of the world all the same. Darrys might have been sideline in the Aerys-Rhaegar conflict by such default then, and eventually Jon would be sent to the Trident anyway. But then again, unquestionable loyalty to House Targaryen sounds like a traditionalist approach.

Arthur Dayne: Rhaegar's man without a doubt. His oldest and closest friend.

Oswell Whent: Rhaegar's man. He's with him at the Tower and rumours are his family conspired alongside him to get the Lords at Harrenhal to stage Aerys' usurpation.

Gerold Hightower, Comander: King's (Aerys') man. The scene at the King's doors is often brought up in discussions about the ethics of the KG. But it actually also unveils a key political information within the Aerys-Rhaegar factions. Whether it's a matter of adhering to the status quo only, or personal allegiance to Aerys as well, the message is clear: even when it's between two royals, it's the King he will stand by, no matter what, even when he's not in the right (and if his son tries to usurp him, then technically he is).

Barristan Selmy: Barristan undergoes a character development during the main series in which he finally questions unquestionable allegiance to a King no matter their morality. A past Barristan, however, would then resemble a Ser Gerold, and be in the King's (Aerys) service before anything by virtue of duty. Notably, he would later reflect that Rhaegar did not find him fit to be in his confidence, and these expectations are probably why.

Lewyn Martell: Easily Elia's and Rhaegar's man, and Dornish. Noted as being in his confidence.

Jaime Lannister: One that causes a lot of controversy. A lot of back and forth discussion as to what expectations Rhaegar had of Jaime (and whether Jaime himself fulfilled them). The answer can actually be seen easily by:

1. Looking at it with the awareness that there was a faction divide existed in the KG in between Aerys and Rhaegar, as it was building up to a conflict and hence-

2. Reading their last conversation with that in mind

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”

Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.”

“Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

For one, Jaime is the last KG left in King's Landing, and one to be kept close to Aerys himself. And Rhaegar is taking him into his confidence before he leaves - he is pretty much talking treason, hinting at usurpation upon his return.

Why did he leave Jaime, A CHILD, to PROTECT his family?

First of all, he doesn't leave Jaime himself in that post. As seen above, Aerys calls the shots. We know from the Ice and Fire "history book" that he sent Lewyn away from Elia as well for being Dornish (while before he was stationed with her and the kids on Dragonstone in Rhaegar's absence) and he commands Jaime to stay. As it appears, he also sends Darry and Selmy with him (with Selmy being a traditionalist at the time, it may even be to keep an eye on Rhaegar).

Rhaegar doesn't have a choice of whom to ask to look out for Elia and the children, no matter which KG would've been in town. He makes that clear. And as to expectations he has of the only one left and whom he can have a word with, while Jaime is, yes, by all means considered a grown man in their society AND a capable soldier who's well trained and already been in combat, he's not asking for Jaime to stand between his family and an army or anything.

There's not meant to be an army. That's meant to be Rhaegar's job to prevent. He's going out to battle. He's meant to give Robert a honorable single combat, prove himself as strong and fair - unlike the mockery of a "trial by combat" Aerys gave Rickard. Hence prove himself unlike his father first of all, probably give his explanations about Lyanna, and also make it clear he's against Aerys' actions and wanting to give the justice by deposing him.

No, Rhaegar isn't irresponsible, dumping that burden on younger Jaime. He does the responsible thing of taking all that upon himself. What does he expect of Jaime? As read above, he does not put Jaime in the mindset of a fighting machine that's supposed to save his family from anything unrealistic. He puts him in the mindset of someone who would be his man and oppose Aerys when the time comes - he's meant to be the one threat to his family when the chips fall down and he is taking the throne.

Whatever reading Rhaegar did of Jaime, he thought he could say those words to him (that would've been dangerous if he were wrong), that Jaime would have it in him to turn against Aerys (again not some ridiculous expectation - a frail man). And Rhaegar is clearly not dumb. He was right in his perception, wasn't he? (Is this where Jon Snow gets his amazing perceptive skills - "little his eyes do not see").

Why wasn't Arthur, a DORNISH man, with Elia?

Why would he be allowed to? We've already established Aerys calls the shots. And among them there's one KG specifically being sent away because he's Dornish and hence loyal to Elia (and Rhaegar). If Lewyn couldn't be there, why would Arthur?

Why did Rhaegar leave a whole THREE Kingsguards with Lyanna?

That is something I couldn't understand for a long time, too. Not only the specific number, but the fact that clearly Rhaegar can't just do whatever he wants with the Kingsguard. Why was this allowed?

It doesn't make sense until you go back to the Aerys-Rhaegar allegiance divide above. The three are Gerold (most loyal Aerys appears to have) and Arthur and Oswell (most loyal Rhaegar appears to have).

Gerold came from King's Landing to take Rhaegar. Oswell and Arthur would have already been with him. Either-

1. Gerold was sent with the order to stay behind with Lyanna. Aerys already took hold of Elia and the kids to control Dorne (and Rhaegar) and would have her in the hands of his most obedient man, too. Rhaegar cannot let that happen, as he plans to turn against Aerys while he's away. If he can't send Gerold away, he makes the compromise of leaving two of his own. One only would have been uncertain odds, but if Gerold eventually acts up when things unravel, he's outnumbered. Arthur and Oswell can do what they have to do and they are in an isolated location and can lie about it later to protect their honor.

2. Gerold wasn't meant to stay behind. But since Rhaegar is decided to depose Aerys, removing him from Aerys is an opportunity. Aerys/Gerold can be lured with the illusion of having a hold on Lyanna. Rhaegar had to leave someone (trustworthy) with her regardless but compromises his own numbers for the same reasoning above, if it means removing a barrier from between him and Aerys. Aerys would be blindsided in allowing in from that same perspective: Rhaegar is made to leave crucial allies behind.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #rhaegar targaryen #aerys targaryen #elia martell #lyanna stark #jon snow

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turtle-paced · 5 months

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Do you think Ned develops as a character throughout AGOT? Like, I think of him trying to save Cersei and her children, and him trying to convince Robert to spare Dany, and while that can be explained by how Ned has severe PTSD regarding child murders, I wonder if the Ned of the beginning of AGOT would have done the same thing

Ned's trust in Robert is shattered over AGoT. With Darry, with Daenerys, with every audience and account Ned has to handle, he comes to see that Robert doesn't care about the responsibilities of his role. More importantly, he doesn't care who could get hurt as a result of Robert's decisions, and it's no accident that the author wrote a bunch of kids getting hurt.

That culminates, in some ways, in Ned's discovery that Robert's a domestic abuser. Robert doesn't even care about his role as a husband or a father, and needless to say that is just alien to Ned. When Ned thinks about it, really thinks about it, what Cersei's done and the lies he himself has told to protect Jon Snow - he understands Cersei's actions better than he does Robert's.

By the end of his own part in AGoT, where Ned might once have been willing to trust Robert's integrity... he just can't.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #ned stark #robert baratheon #a game of thrones

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nightswatchdisbandmentera · 9 months

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Ned's Tower of Joy dream is an interesting case study on how GRRM employs the three part revelation strategy. Because Ned's questioning of the kings guard and their subsequent answers basically falls into:

Q: Why are the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? They could be anywhere else but they're here? Why??

A: They are there to fulfill their duty to the king.

See, Ned asks them three questions that get to the heart of revealing why the kingsguard are present where Lyanna (and Jon, per RLJ) are. Because if the kingsguard's primary duty is to protect the king, and if each set of question and answer reaffirms that the KG at the tower were doing their duty, then we can discern that Rhaegar's son is the king at that moment in time. Each question and answer reveals more information than the last, which falls into the three part strategy as observed by GRRM's editor, Anne Groell.

[...] I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective.

How this strategy plays into the ToJ dream is that GRRM starts with

planting a little seed of doubt by questioning the kingsguard's whereabouts

then he follows up with bringing to attention the fact that they have not yet sworn fealty to the new king

then finally spelling it out that their presence here rather than elsewhere signifies that the king is close at hand - in the very tower where this confrontation is taking place

For the astute observer who has figured out that R+L=J, this is a very important piece of information regarding Jon's status at the time. Because he has so far been introduced to us as Ned Stark's bastard. But now, this sequence of information plays into the larger theme of Jon being presented as a hidden king.

So let's take a more detailed look at how this plays out in the dream once Ned confronts the ghosts of the kingsguard.

P.S: Ok, I lied. Ned actually asks them four questions. But four is not so nice a number as three so whatever. The point remains.

Q1: Three other kingsguard were fighting with the crown prince at the Trident. Yet these three remained. Why?

A1: Their duty was not to go to the Trident but to remain at the ToJ

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This first set means to establish a timeline. We know that Rhaegar was last at the tower (well, that is before he went to Kings Landing and then to the Trident). Rhaegar even took three other kingsguard to battle with him: Jonothor Darry, Barristan Selmy, and Lewyn Martell.

These three kings guard at the ToJ should have gone with Rhaegar because after all, it's their duty to fight for the king and his cause. But they were left at the TOJ. And we can assume that this was per Rhaegar's orders as GRRM himself confirms that if Rhaegar told them to stay at the tower, then they would've had little power to disobey him.

But Rhaegar died at the Trident. So why did they choose to remain? And even though this conversation is happening within a feverish dream (thus opening up the possibility that these words were not the actual ones that were exchanged in real history), it still seems that by the time Ned got to the tower the kingsguard already knew of Rhaegar's demise.

So why did they remain?

Q2: Jaime Lannister, a member of the kingsguard, was in King's Landing slaying their king. Why were these three not there to avenge Aerys? Isn't their primary duty to protect the king?

A2: Aerys is dead, but the kingsguard still has to do their duty which is to remain at the tower.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Once again, the language used here suggests that they knew of their king's demise. They did not go with Rhaegar to the Trident, and then Rhaegar died. Who knows how fast information travels, but these three still chose to remain at the tower despite his death. Afterwards, they did not make an effort to find Aerys, nor did they make an effort to go and avenge him once he was dead. They swore an oath to remain at the tower, and that is exactly what they did.

But with Rhaegar dead and with Aerys dead, they're now running out of excuses to remain at the tower. Though they may be fiercely loyal to the vows they swore to their prince, they also have a primary duty to obey their king and they could've performed that elsewhere. Especially now that there's a new king in town...

Q3: Ok, their king is dead and the entire realm now swears fealty to a new king. All the knights, honorable and dishonorable, have bent the knee. But what about them? Why are they here?

A3: They have a duty to remain at the tower. A duty they fulfill as members of the kingsguard, and one that cannot be transferred easily.

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

What's interesting about this is that they seemingly reject Robert as their king. It's a reaffirmation of their first answer to Ned's first question. "Woe to the Usurper if we had been [at the Trident]”. So Robert is not their king. But the primary duty of the kingsguard is to serve the king. Their behavior so far gives the impression that they are fulfilling it. But it's rather strange, isn't it. Who are they fulfilling their duty to if not Robert?

And Ned knows this. If they reject Robert as their king, who else is there to support? Rhaegar is long dead. Aerys was slain by their own sworn brother. And Rhaegar's son and heir met his end at the hand of Gregor Clegane. Their duty is sworn to the Targaryen line, but it has been snuffed out. So why are they here?

But Ned asks a final question that is, in a way, a nail in the coffin. It answers the question: they serve the king but which one?

Q4: Fine! Robert is not their king. And Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon are dead. Well...there is Viserys, who would have been Aerys' heir after Rhaegar. He's not dead. So why are they not with him?

A4: They do not go to Viserys because their duty as kingsguard(!) is not with him.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

This is the final revelation and it answers the key question in all of this. The kingsguard performed their duty by guarding their king at the Tower of Joy. They are not serving Aerys by remaining there. And they are also not doing Viserys, who is currently at Dragonstone, any favors. Whatever vow they swore as kingsguard relates to the ToJ. And we know (per RLJ) that the two people at the tower are Lyanna Stark and Jon Snow, Rhaegar's last surviving son and heir.

We're given two key pieces of information with the last two sets of question and answer in regards to the kingsguards performing their duty by guarding Jon at the tower. First when Arthur Dayne says that, "our knees do not bend easily". Of course, they do not bend for Robert the usurper as we already know...

...But, the start of the dream features a very important detail.

Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone.

Ser Oswell has already bent the knee. And he means to fight for the king he has sworn a vow to since he is preparing his sword.

Then we have Ser Gerold 'pointing out' (thus bringing attention to) the fact that though Prince Viserys and Queen Rhaella are still alive and under the protection of a good knight, they are not under the protection of kingsguard. The kings guard does not flee - they stand their ground and fight for their king. And this is again asserted by Ser Gerold who reminds Ned that “we swore a vow.”

So we have a three four part revelation that the last stand at the ToJ involved protecting little Jon who, at that time, was recognized as king by the three knights.

This doesn't end here. Jaime's ASOS dream also has him confront ghosts of the pasts and the question of oaths comes up, as it did in Ned's dream. The two dreams intersect when the topic of the kingsguard's duty comes up. And we see that as it was in Ned's dream, the three knights at the ToJ were fulfilling their primary oaths to protect (and die) for their king.

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” [Brienne] said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.” “We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly. [...] “He was your king,” said Darry. “You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent. “And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn. [...] “I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king …” “Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur. “Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn. “The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

Once again, we have the affirmation that the kingsguard swear vows to protect their king even if it leads to their deaths. And as we know, all these kingsguard died during Robert's Rebellion. Three died at the Trident with Rhaegar, fighting for their king's cause. So why are the other three who were at the ToJ lumped with them?

Of course, this is Jaime's conscious. And his relationship with Dayne, Hightower, and Whent is very different from Ned's. But the point remains that as the narrative suggests, they too died for their king. They fulfilled their oaths to completion. But the king they died for was not Aerys or Aegon or Viserys. Their king was a tiny babe - Jon Snow.

Though this feverish dream is part of a much larger reveal (that is R+L=J), Ned’s conversation with the three kingsguard plays into one of the key motifs in Jon Snow’s arc - that is his identity as the king. Not a king. But THE king.

What makes the three part revelation so interesting in this passage is that not everyone has figured R+L=J out. But to the astute observer, this key passage is just another piece of important evidence that plays into the hidden prince trope that RLJ falls under. And not only that, it yet another instance of Jon being recognized as the true king by the narrative.

#jon snow #eddard stark #tower of joy #r plus l equals j #gerold hightower #arthur dayne #oswell whent #the kingsguard #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls

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sherlokiness · 8 months

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Isn't RLJ a false marriage? Won't jon still be a bastard then?

Elia and Rhaegar had healthy children, legit kids so won't Ned respect that marriage like any northern one? Also elia's marriage was not under any coercion or dubious consent like Lyanna's supposed one was. And valyrian polygamy was outlawed for years, so ned should never see it as a real marriage.

(thanks for ur earlier answer by the way)

Hi, anon. Thanks for the ask! It was no biggie.

I would like you to read the comment from Ygrain in this thread. The biggest proof of RLJ marriage is the presence of the Kingsguard at the ToJ. I'll post a shorter version of it down below.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

The KG consider Robert a usurper.

When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

So the KG knew that Aerys is dead and denounces Jaime as a KG. We could also infer that they weren't with Aerys when Jaime killed his king.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them the remaining Targ forces have bent the knees and was surprised they weren't there.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

To which Arthur replied that their knees do not bend easily yet when Ned approached earlier, Oswell Whent was on his knee. Taken together, it's a clue that they have already bent the knee to someone.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Why aren't the KG with Viserys the supposed king if they're really so honorable? Their duties would demand them to get him to safety.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

They've ignored the insult of Viserys being called a prince and admits he doesn't have a KG.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

So Willem is a good man and it's okay to be with the prince but not them because they're the KG. And what is the primary duty of the KG? To protect and defend the King.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

So the KG does not flee and they would have defended the king then(Aerys) and that's what they're doing now(Jon).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Below are the exact points from the thread:

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.

Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Also, all the jokes about bastards and princes GRRM does with Joffrey and Jon won't work if they're both bastards.

#sherlokiness ask #I'm sorry but this thread was so brilliant #no way jon is a bastard

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ladystoneboobs · 17 days

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westerosi ruling ladies/acknowledged heiresses outside of dorne, listed by region:

the north

lady jonelle cerwyn, lady of castle cerwyn after the murder of her younger brother, lord cley cerwyn, by ramsay snow. (cley did not long outlive their father, lord medger cerwyn, who died of his wounds as a pow at harrenhal, after fighting in roose bolton's host when tywin lannister defeated them on the green fork.) we first hear of lady jonelle when robb stark calls his banners and lord cerwyn means to bring his old maid daughter with him, and the next we hear of her is when asha greyjoy gets her letter from ramsay, co-signed by a lady cerwyn and lady dustin, among the other northern lords in the bolton camp. cerwyn men-at-arms and the cerwyn maester are noted with roose at wf, and presumably if their lady did go south with her father, she must have returned north in roose bolton's party.

lady barbrey ryswell dustin, widow of the late lord willam dustin, apparently the last of his line since no surviving male dustins are ever mentioned. the widow of barrowton rules in his place for the remainder of her lifetime, and (unlike poor lady hornwood) rules with power uncontested, as barrowton's closest neighbors are the ryswells, also her closest kin, father and brothers. however, without any children from the late lord dustin, unclear what would happen after lady barbrey dies.

lady lyessa flint, head of the branch of house flint of widow's watch. lady flint's son, robin flint, led their forces in robb stark's army and died with the king at the red wedding, but was not the head of house. lady flint is listed such in the appendices, and was said to be pregnant in acok, meaning she likely had a living husband at the time, but he goes unnamed as only her consort.

lady alys karstark, heir to her eldest brother harrion karstark of karhold (whose location and current status is unclear after being captured by the lannisters a 2nd time), following the deaths of their brothers in the battle of the whispering wood, and the execution of their father by king robb as a murderer and traitor. at jon snow's instigation she has taken sigorn, magnar of thenn, as her consort.

lady wynafryd manderly, elder granddaughter of lord wyman manderly, by his son and heir ser wylis. should be the next heir to white harbor after her father, unless her parents should produce a son.

lady maege mormont of bear island, the only ruling lady listed here to also have a daughter as her heir. first this was dacey mormont, but after her murder at the red wedding, the new heir is second daughter alysanne aka aly the she-bear. but since aly told asha greyjoy she had a son as well as a daughter back home, that means there likely won't be a 3rd ruling lady in a row, as the mormonts may have a history of women warriors, but there's no sign they don't still practice male-preference primogeniture when there is a son to inherit. where the mormonts do step out of northern convention, however, is the ruling ladies fucking whoever they want without feeling the need for a husband and still naming their fatherless children mormonts, not snows, a practice rhaenyra targaryen would surely envy.

lady eddara tallhart, an heiress and then nominal ruler of torrhen's square, before the age of 10, after her elder brother benfred was killed by theon greyjoy's ironmen and then their father ser helman was killed when roose bolton sent him into an ambush at duskendale. listed as still a captive inside her family's seat, besieged by dagmer cleftjaw again, in the adwd appendix.

the riverlands

lady barbara bracken, eldest daughter of lord jonos bracken of stone hedge, who has multiple daughters by two of his three different wives, but no surviving sons.

lady amarei frey lannister, married to lancel lannister at castle darry as a granddaughter of a previous lord darry, then left to rule on her own after lancel abandoned her and repudiated their unconsummated marriage

lady eleanor mooton, eldest daughter of lord william mooton of maidenpool, listed as his heir in adwd appendix, at the time of her marriage to dickon tarly. (meaning presumably his sons mentioned in acok died during the war.)

lady carellen smallwood, (likely?) heir to acorn hall as the only known surviving child of lord and lady smallwood, whose only known son died years before.

lady liane vance, eldest daughter of lord karyl vance of house vance of wayfarer's rest, listed as his heir in the affc appendix

lady shella whent, last of the line of the whents of harrenhal, disposessed by tywin lannister, and allegedly dead by the time of affc, according to littlefinger. text is somewhat inconsistent on whether she or her husband inherited harrenhal, just as it's unknown what happened to all their children if they were the same whents hosting the tourney at harrenhal years before, nor even how they were related to minisa whent tully, the late lady of riverrun.

the vale

chella, daughter of cheyk, clan chief of the black ears

lady anya waynwood, lady of ironoaks, an older lady with multiple sons and grandsons still ruling in her own name, a formidable power in the vale, perhaps second only to the main branch of house royce as chief bannermen of house arryn

the westerlands

cersei lannister, lady of casterly rock as well as queen regent, following her father, lord tywin lannister, being murdered by her younger brother tyrion, an attainted traitor and fugitive, with her twin brother, jaime, unable to inherit as a knight of the kingsguard

lady alysanne lefford, lady of the golden tooth after lord leo lefford drowned in the battle of the fords against edmure tully's army. (whether the previous lord was her father, brother, or even uncle or cousin is unknown, all we know of her is her entry in the affc/adwd appendices after lord lefford's death in asos)

the reach

lady alysanne bulwer, the lady of blackcrown as the only known child of the late lord jon bulwer, frequently referred to as lady bulwer. (lady fatherslastname not being a style otherwise used with a lord's unmarried daughters, lady housesurname usually referring to a lord's wife using her husband's name). there is an inconsistency with taena merryweather telling cersei that there was talk of megga tyrell being betrothed to lady bulwer's brother (which a nondornish heiress cannot have and is not listed in any appendix), but this is either a mistake by grrm or misunderstanding by taena unless she's referring to an unknown brother of alysanne bulwer's mother, the last lady bulwer. (i'm taking multiple mentions of her as lady bulwer in sansa's pov over any gossip from taena.)

lady arwyn oakheart, lady of old oak, a widow with multiple grown sons who commanded her own forces in renly baratheon's army, even if she did not mean to fight on the field.

the crownlands

lady ermesand hayford, the last of the hayford line, a babe ruling in name only, married to the squire tyrek lannister before she was weaned, a husband now missing since his disappearence during the riot in kl on the day of princess myrcella's departure

the ladies tanda, falyse and lollys stokeworth, three would-be rulers of castle stokeworth dispossessed by the schemes of queen cersei and ser bronn of the blackwater. lady tanda ruled for years with falyse as her heir and younger daughter lollys as the only heir to the barren falyse, until such time as lollys was wed to bronn and lady tanda took a griveous fall from a horse. bronn started calling himself lord stokeworth when tanda and falyse were still alive, chasing off falyse after her husband attempted to kill him at cersei's behest. falyse died painfully in qyburn's dungeons, while tanda was left to die at castle stokeworth, making lollys even more a ruler in name only than baby lady hayford, as her husband is inside the castle with men loyal only to him, not to any stokeworth lady.

the stormlands

lady brienne of tarth, heir to lord selwyn tarth the evenstar as his only surviving child

lady mary mertyns, listed as lady of the mistwood in the adwd appendix

you'll notice the iron islands is the only (nondornish) region missing here. ofc they did have a possible heiress to pyke and all the isles but then asha greyjoy was soundly rejected as such at the kingsmoot after balon's death. the lack of other present-tl ruling ladies/acknowledged heirs afab may be down to this being the smallest region, aside from the crownlands. however, there are no historical ruling ladies in their section of the world book either, iirc.

AND there is another case of a possible heiress, again meaning asha, wrt harlaw. her uncle lord rodrik harlaw tried to dissaude her from the kingsmoot by offering to name her heir to his castle, while allowing a cousin to inherit all his other titles and power over the whole island of harlaw. but shouldn't asha have already been in line for all the harlaw lands and titles, above all the harlaw cousins? her aunt gwynesse's complaint of being the true heir as rodrik's elder sister may not work outside of dorne, but even on the nondornish mainland, a lord's sister (and therefore their children, ie asha) still come before a lord's uncles and cousins. isn't that the whole point of alys karstark's plight, that her older cousin had to marry her to try to claim her birthright? so the harlaw line of succession should go rodrik>gwynesse>alannys>asha before any cousins come into it.

that this would not be the case and that asha is only presented with the option of being lady of ten towers by doing homage to a cousin as her overlord for the whole island of harlaw suggests imo that the islands are particularly resistant to a woman as head of house, with all male kin following her in place of a patriarch. women may serve as castle stewards and the right sort may prove themselves as captains (not common, but not too rare either) but ruling on land, ruling over male kin, and fellow captains is a different matter. perhaps not too surprising from a people whose religon sees rape of foreign women as a key and holy part of their way of life. an ironwoman may not disapprove of her men doing so, but cannot fully participate without the cock to forcibly spread seed across the world. how can a captain who cannot fully perform manhood as the drowned god proscribes for his captains be rock king over any island, let alone all of them? in this light, balon's choice of asha as heir is even more radical, though likely it came not from a view of equality between the sexes but from a feeling that his own daughter was the very much singular special exception, more a son than greendlandized theon.

#vayrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #asoiaf #i just like listing things #i could have listed the dornish ladies and heiresses but the point is how many there even w/o equal primogeniture #the north and riverlands prob have the postdance phenom of more female rulers from all the men killed in war but theyre also #the most developed regions by far. so the other lists being shorter is partly down to not having as many family trees there #i think some people do give the ironborn more credit than they should for their uncommon but not unheard of warrior women captains #but i think aeron and vic are meant to represent the general view wrt how far a woman can rise.#and we see their views vindicated w how quickly balon's wishes for asha as heir as disregarded after his death #what is dead may never die #asha greyjoy #rodrik harlaw #balon greyjoy #(c)lsb #cleaning out my drafts. cleaning out my drafts. hi-ho the derry-o. cleaning out my drafts.

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inlovewithquotes · 10 months

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The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some other queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

-A Feast For Crows

#quotes #book quotes #literature #books & libraries #life quotes #george rr martin #asoiaf quotes #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #a feast for crows #jaime lannister #aerys targaryen #rhaella targaryen #jon darry

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eonweheraldodemanwe · 4 months

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Preview of the new models for the upcoming skirmishes game A Song of Ice and Fire Tactics

But why is Lynn Corbray along the guy he killed?

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #got #game of thrones #wargames #robert baratheon #eddard stark #jon arryn #hoster tully #roose bolton #denys arryn #jason mallister #rhaegar targaryen #barristan selmy #lewyn martell #jonothor darry #myles mooton #jon connington #lynn corbray

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jackoshadows · 9 months

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@blankwhiteshield I thought I would respond in a separate post since I don't want to derail from @fromtheseventhhell's OG post about something else. You responded to my comment here by saying that I was 'entirely wrong' and linking to an essay on Jaime Lannister and I did try to read through all that to get a gist of your explanation.

First I want to mention that Rhaegar being a pre-asoiaf/background/tertiary character means we don't know a lot about him. I can only speculate as to his thoughts and motives and why he did what he did.

I wrote that comment because the absolute hypocrisy of Jaime Lannister apologists/Braime shippers critiquing Rhaegar grinds my gears something fierce. And I am not even a Rhaegar fan - he's a character that there's to set other characters on their journey and to set the story.

The consequences of Jaime's incestual adultery was the spark that lead to the WOT5K that two years on is still ongoing with no stability in war torn Westeros. Jaime Lannister attempts to murder a little child because he can't keep it in his pants for the short duration they are visiting the Starks. Jaime was hunting down a 9 year old to cut off her hand. That poll about Rhaegar being a bad father when Jaime refers to Joffrey as semen in Cersei's cunt is a farce.

Hence my comment.

Now, let's start with Jaime being Aerys' hostage. Yes, Aerys used Jaime against Tywin. However, why was Jaime in the Kingsguard (KG) in the first place? He was Tywin's golden child and heir to Casterly Rock, unlike Cersei and Tyrion having no value for Tywin because she is a girl and he is disabled.

Aerys had no power over Jaime until he chose to join the KG to serve the Mad King. Jaime had more choice than the 14 year old bastard Jon Snow who had to leave Winterfell and the NW is pretty much the only option available to him. He had more choice than his sister Cersei. He had more choice than disabled Tyrion getting physically/sexually abused by his own family.

So why did Jaime decide to join the KG? So that he could be close to Cersei and sleep with her. Jaime joins the KG knowing that he was going to break the KG oaths of celibacy. He didn't care about oaths when joining the KG , right?

This is why Jaime's entire spiel about oaths never had any emotional weight for me, coming from a character who had no value for oaths in the first place and who had no intention of upholding his sworn oaths when he joined the KG.

I can understand a character like Jon Snow's angst and conflict when he is forced to sleep with Ygritte or when he has to choose between the NW and saving his sister, because oaths are important to Jon Snow. Oaths and honor is important to someone like Ned Stark. Jaime? Considering his total disrespect for the KG oaths when he joins them to simply be close to Cersei, I don't get it.

Next, Rhaegar's conversation with Jaime.

Why do you assume here that Jaime was scared of Aerys and asking Rhaegar to save/rescue him from Aerys? I mean, Jaime was KG. At 13 he won his first melee. At 15 he was defeating other skilled swordsmen.

It could just as well be Jaime eager to fight with Rhaegar in battle and asking that Rhaegar leave behind the older KG like Darry to instead guard the king because the battle is where the fight is. Jaime thinks that guarding someone is not as exciting as fighting in battle. It's even right there in the next sentence when Jaime gets angry about being referred to as a crutch and he's like ' I AM A KINGSGUARD'.

We see something similar when Jon begs his uncle to take him for ranging.

Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest. That night he sought out his uncle in the great timbered common hall and pleaded to go with him. Benjen refused him curtly. - Jon, AGoT

There's also not much Rhaegar can probably do at that point (speculating here) - facing war/battle - about his volatile, angry father, the King. There are all these essays about the effect that Tywin had on Jaime... imagine the burden of being the Mad King's son. What power does Rhaegar have to take away the King's choice of KG? Rhaegar didn't even have the power to send his own wife and children elsewhere. Him actively interfering was only going to further anger a king who was already paranoid about the crown prince. Hence the 'I dare not take away that crutch from him at such a hour'.

I think you also mention that Jaime was terrified of being executed as an hostage - is this mentioned anywhere in the books or are you just assuming/speculating on his thought process here?

Jon Snow is elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at 16. In Westeros 16 is considered a man grown and Jaime is an adult by Westerosi standards and Rhaegar certainly didn't see him as some kind of child hostage like that post deliberately twisted it into.

A boy in Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

At any rate, Rhaegar and Jaime's fellow KG expected the KG left behind in KL - Jaime Lannister - to do his job and protect the crown prince's wife and babies as per sworn oaths.

In which Jaime fails because while his father's men, including the Mountain, were scaling the walls to rape and murder Elia and her babies, Jaime was lounging on the throne waiting for one of the rebels to get there. And hence his guilt when confronted by ghosts of his past in his weirwood dreams.

You have written a lot on how Jaime could not have known about what Tywin's men would do. I mean, why is he waiting around to find out what they would do?! Sorry, these are piss poor excuses and even Jaime Lannister himself doesn't really believe this because he knows that he should have immediately gone to their side after the King was dead as his ghosts tell him.

Jaime knows his father. He knows what Tywin is capable of. He was there for what Tywin did to Tysha. KL was even then being raped and pillaged. And he thought nothing would happen to the Targaryen princess and her children?

The Mad King was dead - literally backstabbed by the hostage. What should this skilled Kingsguard do next? Immediately go to Elia and the babies to protect Rhaegar's family as Rhaegar entrusted him to do or sit on the Throne waiting for someone to come there? We know what Jaime chose to do:

'Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark'.

This is what is given to us in the books. Nothing more, nothing else. You can add to this of course, but that would be speculative theorizing on what Jaime's thoughts and feelings are about all this, not what is actually given to us in the books.

#Response

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malora-hightower · 6 months

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The Starks + Thinking About Each Other

Part I: Ned

There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s father, had a long, stern face. The stonemasons had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children. Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule. Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart.

AGoT, Eddard I

He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that, he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.

AGoT, Eddard I

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

AGoT, Eddard II

Not for the first time, he wondered what he was doing here and why he had come. [. . .] He belonged in Winterfell. He belonged with Catelyn in her grief, and with Bran.

AGoT, Eddard II

Bran’s wolf had saved the boy’s life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa’s, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

AGoT, Eddard IV

Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son . . . and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

AGoT, Eddard IV

Ned did not need Littlefinger to tell him that. He was thinking back to the day Arya had been found . . .. He was thinking of the boy Mycah, of Jon Arryn’s sudden death, of Bran’s fall . . ..

AGoT, Eddard IV

“No,” Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. “Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king’s council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother’s Faith and become the High Septon.” But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

AGoT, Eddard V

He yearned for the comfort of Catelyn’s arms, for the sounds of Robb and Jon crossing swords in the practice yard, for the cool days and cold nights of the north.

AGoT, Eddard VI

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.” He took out the dagger and studied it. Littlefinger’s blade, won by Tyrion Lannister in a tourney wager, sent to slay Bran in his sleep. Why? Why would the dwarf want Bran dead? Why would anyone want Bran dead?

AGoT, Eddard VII

The dagger, Bran’s fall, all of it was linked somehow to the murder of Jon Arryn, he could feel it in his gut . . ..

AGoT, Eddard VII

It would be good to return to Winterfell. He ought never have left. His sons were waiting there. Perhaps he and Catelyn would make a new son together when he returned, they were not so old yet. And of late he had often found himself dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night.

AGoT, Eddard VIII

Could Robert be part of it? He would not have thought so, but once he would not have thought Robert could command the murder of women and children either. Catelyn had tried to warn him. You knew the man, she had said. The king is a stranger to you.

AGoT, Eddard VIII

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, nut it cannot change a man’s nature.”

AGoT, Eddard IX

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

AGoT, Eddard IX

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. [. . .] “As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

AGoT, Eddard X

It was queer how sometimes a child’s innocent eyes can see the things that grown men are blind to. Someday, when Sansa was grown, he would have to tell her how she had made it all come clear for him. He’s not the least bit like that old drunken king, she had declared, angry and unknowing, and the simple truth of it had twisted inside him, cold as death.

AGoT, Eddard XII

And yet, he knew he could not keep silent. He had a duty to Robert, to the realm, to the shade of Jon Arryn . . . and to Bran, who surely must have stumbled on some part of the truth. Why else would they have tried to slay him?

AGoT, Eddard XII

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

AGoT, Eddard XII

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.” Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.

AGoT, Eddard XII

He was walking thought the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s whispered statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

AGoT, Eddard XIII

“Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.” Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed.

AGoT, Eddard XIII

The thought of Winterfell brought a wan smile to his face. He wanted to hear Bran’s laughter once more, to go hawking with Robb, to watch Rickon at play. He wanted to drift off to a dreamless sleep in his own bed with his arms wrapped tight around his lady, Catelyn.

AGoT, Eddard XIII

When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

AGoT, Eddard XV

He made plans to keep himself sane, built castles of hope in the dark. [. . .] Catelyn would raise the north when the word reached her, and the lords of river and mountain and Vale would join her. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of the false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. [. . .] He remembered Brandon’s laughter . . .. [. . .] Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

AGoT, Eddard XV

“. . . And now your son marches down the Neck with a northern host at his back.” “Robb is only a boy,” Ned said, aghast.

AGoT, Eddard XV

“Pity.” The eunuch stood. “And your daughter’s life, my lord? How previous is that?” A chill pierced Ned’s heart. “My daughter . . .”

AGoT, Eddard XV

#ned stark #part II will be catelyn #I'm sure I missed some and a couple of these may not fall under 'thinking about'#valyrianscrolls #asoiaf #thenorthsource #bookhousestark #eddard stark #house stark #txt #starksthinkingofeachother

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goodqueenaly · 1 month

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Not sure if you are the right person to ask this but what is the deal with Gerion's trip to Valyria? Because according to Fire and Blood, after Aerea died Jaehaerys forbid anyone from Westeros from ever going there and ordered than any ship suspected of having been there should be turned away from ports.

Did somebody later overturned that order so it was again legal to go there, did Gerion think it wouldn't apply to him because he's a Lannister or did Tywin find a neat way to get rid of problematic brother without dirtying his hands personally?

I think the No-Prize Answer is that even if this law was still on the books, so to speak, and remembered by anyone (except, say, the platinum-link maesters of the Citadel) by 291 AC, Robert Baratheon was probably not particularly inclined either to recall this bit of history or enforce it as king, especially when it came to his uncle by marriage. Robert was by no means stupid, but his areas of expertise were never highly scholastic, and so a decree issued nearly two and a half centuries prior may not have even registered in Robert’s mind as an important point in his education. Moreover, as king - especially a king almost a decade into his reign by 291 AC - Robert displayed little interest in his role as supreme judicial authority in the realm, calling laws a “tedious business” and bemoaning the work of “listen[ing] to them [i.e. his subjects] complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw”. It is possible, if not indeed probable, that Robert was too busy hunting, hawking, and/or pursuing a fleeting extramarital affair to even bat an eye at the idea of one of his subjects sailing to the ruins of Valyria, much less whether such a voyage would be legally forbidden.

Too, even if Robert had thought to bring up Jaehaerys I’s decree, he may have refrained from doing so in deference to his Lannister in-laws. It is no secret, certainly by the time of AGOT, that Robert had allowed Lannister influence to flourish at court, to the exclusion of virtually any other aristocratic faction: his acceptance of Tyrek and Lancel Lannister as his squires, his acceptance of Jaime as the Warden of the East following the death of Jon Arryn, his concession to Cersei over Lady at Darry. While Gerion Lannister left Westeros some seven years before the start of the main novels, I could very much believe that Robert had already begun to allow this Lannister domination at court: after all, he had seemingly raised no objection to his (ostensible) firstborn son being given an explicitly Lannister( and to that point, historically pointed) name, nor to his daughter being given a very Lannister-like name (and in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cersei named Tommen after Uncle Gerion himself and his voyage, a nod to the Lannister glory once lost by King Tommen which this favorite uncle hoped to reclaim). I don’t tend to think Tywin engineered Gerion’s voyage - an audaciously confident far-reaching quest to reclaim the symbol of Lannister regal power, undertaken by this most reckless of Tytos Lannister’s sons, doesn’t seem too far off from some of the actions of, say, Jaime or Tyrion - but I do think that if some or all of the Lannisters supported Gerion in this voyage (and funded him going on it), Robert may not have been personally inclined to fight his queen and/or the Lannister faction about it.

Of course, the practical answer is that GRRM introduced the idea of Gerion Lannister sailing to Valyria, (almost certainly) never to return, many years before he described Jaehaerys I forbidding Westerosi from sailing to Valyria. Just as Fire and Blood Volume 1 described the infrastructure improvements in the capital instituted by Jaehaerys I without acknowledging what happened to King’s Landing thereafter to make it the stinking cesspit of the main novels, for example, and alluded to hatchlings and young drakes extant during the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I without ever explaining why there were no more adult dragons than those we already knew going into that book, so F&B gave us this decree without attempting to reconcile it with the current attitude of the Westerosi legal system toward voyages to the Smoking Sea. It’s entirely possible we get an answer to this apparent contradiction in a future novel, and/or in Fire and Blood Volume 2, but for now it simply remains an apparent unanswered question.

#asoiaf meta #gerion lannister #fire and blood volume 1

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