#totk discourse

[werewolf-cuddles]

people are really weird about sidlink, they gave sidon like a girlfriend or something i think in the new game and now people are on here calling nintendo homophobic and they did it as a reaction to sidlink shippers. I dont mind sidlink but like the shippers are weird.

I will be very blunt here.

The people who unironically think Yona was introduced because Nintendo are homophobic and hate Sidlink shippers need to go outside and touch grass.

Nintendo do not give a shit about you or your ship. Never have done, never will.

They're far too busy going after modders and fan-game developers to care about your non-canon ship.

#tloz discourse #totk discourse #totk spoilers #tears of the kingdom spoilers #yona discourse #fandumb #ship drama #fanpol drama

[kingsidonfanpage]

dude i have seen a good few people in the sidlink tag complaining about how all sidlink shippers are batshit crazy misogynists bc apparently hc’ing yona as being a lesbian or as being a wingwoman for sidon and link or as being anything that could even slightly hint at her not being in a relationship with sidon is the absolute most terrible thing one could do on tumblr

shit is actually bonkers rn man. i can't believe we’re being called bigots over personal opinions about fictional characters

the insane fact is not all of us - MOST OF US - don't even hc her in that way (i.e. me bc sidon has two hands!! polycule sidlinkona FTW!!!)

this is a tdlr post btw, how i actually feel about this entire situation is in the tags. im a little irritated about the whole thing, so sorry in advance bc i do get a little mean

#sidonfp #sfp's thoughts #totk #totk spoilers? #tears of the kingdom #totk talk #totk discourse #sidlink #man it is REALLY hard to type with a bandaid on ur thumb. anyway #im about to talk a lot. be warned #you guys actually need to chill tf out #i mean this shit is getting ridonkulous #i haven't even seen the misogyny half of you birdbrains are talking about #the only “hate” ive seen of her wasn't even hate. #it was mild dislike with actual valid reasons #and even THAT was very few #maybe it's just because i haven't actively been searching for people who don't like yona #and to be real with y'all i DO like yona. a lot actually #but someone not liking yona doesn't make them a misogynist #same thing for people who don't see yona in a romantic relationship with sidon #or hc her as lesbian or whatever the hell #but if you're gonna bitch about it anyway do it OUT of the sidlink tag! #don't clutter my feed with your nonsensical nonsense #the misogyny and extreme hate y'all claim to have seen so much i have yet to witness #stop blowing up the situation and for the love of god PLEASE stop throwing these serious words around #we can do better than this friends!!

[just-antithings]

In a group where ppl are cool with rauru x link but not rauru x zelda and it felt like a massive double standard based on gender but it turns out their problem is because zelda is (very distantly) related to rauru.

But that's dumb logic imo since that's the argument people use to call zelink "incest" post skyward sword. People who are in-between anti and proship frustrate me so much because the hypocrisy is off the charts.

IT'S BEEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS SINCE HE FUCKED THE HYLIAN THAT'S HER ANCESTOR HELLO????? A;SLGKJAS;DLGKJA

Speaking of, Sonia can get it-

#i am clawing at the door of my containment cell #mod seraphim #incest mention #totk discourse #totk spoilers

[faroreswinds]

I have a lot to say about the Totk story, and how it fails, but there was one particular thing I felt the need to note that only occurred to me while I sat in my warm tub, contemplating my sad existence in this world.

It occurred to me that Zelda, a person from the future with knowledge of said future, does not try to attempt to find the hero or the master sword of Rauru’s era.

And while that might seem like a minor thing, I don’t think it is.

In Zelda lore, we have a few other instances where a hero does not show up, but it is not for a lack of trying. In the case of LttP, for instance, the people sought the Master Sword, a powerful weapon said to be the bane of evil, in order to defeat Ganon and his spreading evil. But they could not find the Master Sword, no matter how hard they looked. And eventually, they ran out of time, and had to turn to the Knights of Hyrule and the Sages to complete the job. This ended up with the near total genocide of the Knights, and Ganon only being sealed away into the Dark World as a temporary measure. 

As for the Wind Waker, the people did basically nothing, because they had anticipated the Hero of Time to travel through time to their rescue. They relied on a hero who had rescued them before and therefore, through their negligence, failed to seek a hero of their era until it was far too late. By then, their only recourse was to pray to the gods to be saved from Ganondorf’s evil. Even after all of that, the King of Hyrule still sought the Hero of Time. It was only until he met WW Link that he realized that he could not rely on an ancient hero who was never going to show up. 

But what about the Imprisoning War in Totk? 

Zelda joins the ancient sages (who have no names or faces btw, I have no idea why they even bothered) and King Rauru in order to attempt to stop Ganondorf. But his power was too great, so Rauru sacrificed himself in a last ditch effort to seal Ganondorf for thousands of years, so that Link could defeat him in the far future.

At first, I didn’t really have any issue with this general set up. But as I thought about the other two No-Hero eras, I realized that Zelda really failed Rauru and his era. 

Zelda’s time is not one of complete ignorance. They have history and legends, recorded for thousands of years. It was common knowledge that the Princess sealed the darkness, and the Hero took up the Master Sword in an epic battle against evil. It was so known, in fact, that that was their entire plan against the Calamity. Find the Hero, awaken Zelda’s powers, and then defeat evil. 

And yet, when Zelda is forced into the past, it apparently does not occur to her to find the Hero of that era? If she remembered that the Master Sword could hurt Ganondorf, then surely she might think of seeking it in Rauru’s era? 

Rauru’s era seems to be one of ignorance. They do not seem to know about the Master Sword, or the concept of the Hero. So I don’t blame them for not looking for a Hero or the Master Sword. But Zelda DOES know. And yet, she never brings up the possibility of a hero of that time? Like, imagine if they looked for the MS and the Hero but failed to find both, and THEN resorted to their war? 

I am sure you could make all sorts of arguments as to why Zelda never bothers to mention the hero. Perhaps she didn’t know the Master Sword already existed in Rauru’s era. Perhaps she made all the connections too late. These are all technically valid, but do not excuse the writing of her character, which makes her seem kinda slow and pretty stupid.

She never makes the connection that Ganondorf is Calamity Ganon. She never considers that her actions in the past MIGHT change her future, perhaps even in drastic ways (she just decided she wanted to help the past, unsure if this would even affect her future). She and Sonia made a pretty foolish plan to confront Phantom Zelda, and then Zelda made no attempt to use her powers to rewind time to save Sonia. Zelda also never makes an attempt to use her sealing powers either, and while you can argue she lost her sealing powers at the end of BotW, this is also never brought up in Totk so it feels like a conversation is missing. 

It feels like at every turn, Zelda makes the worst decisions left and right, with her only decent decision in being to restore the Master Sword in a sacrificial mental suicide. But even that is full of oddities. 

How did she know that turning into a dragon would allow her Light powers to pour into the Master Sword? She is explicitly told that her Secret Stone amplifies her Time powers. As far as she knows, turning into a dragon will not enhance her Light powers in any way. 

Furthermore, how did she know that clutching the Master Sword during the transformation would allow it to be embedded in her body in such a way that Link could access it later? 

She took a HUGE gamble based on two facts: That the MS gains power as it absorbed sacred power, of which she possesses, and that eating a stone will make one a dragon forever. 

That’s it, that is all she knows. She knows nothing else, and yet jumped into this huge risk. As far as she knows, she could have dropped the MS during the transformation, and then her sacrifice would have been for naught. 

And it’s not like this is a knowledge Zelda. TP Zelda, for instance, is not a character who is fully explored, so any knowledge she possesses is fully believable. I don’t know what TP Zelda knows, so if she knows about the MS, then yeah, I believe that.

But BotW Zelda is explored more, and we know what she knows. And she does NOT know all the details about the dragonification process. She only knows eating a secret stone makes you a dragon. She got so unbelievably lucky in her guess that it borderlines insanity. 

This world and this Zelda was not designed for this story, and it shows in a big way. 

#my thoughts #totk-spoilers #Totk discourse #Zelda discourse

[mylonelydreaming]

Since some people want to get on my case (despite apparently not knowing Japanese themselves) for how I explained "tadaima", here's several people explaining it more or less the exact same way I did:

As you can see, it is used 99% of the time with people who you live with and/or have a close relationship to.

#This is even the case for when it was used in another game I love Kingdom Hearts 2 #because Destiny Islands is their home and they grew up there together #so yes. #it does imply they share a home/that they are each other's home/close relationship #I was literally taught Japanese by a Japanese woman I'm not pulling stuff out of thin air or trying to say japanese is more spiritual #however like many languages words DO carry more meaning than in english that is untranslatable. #there are words in french and german that can't truly be translated to english #it's not saying a language is more spiritual and deep to point out that fact #totk discourse #however yes the house pronouns/lack of is a poor argument due to the name of the well #but that hardly matters when cohabitation is still strongly implied by all the other evidence

[veggiecorner]

Food for thought but what if the house in Hateno was just Zeldas at first? Link wanted to give Zelda a place to stay where she can rest without being reminded of her duty every 5 seconds (which was why staying in Kakariko didn't work) and he knew he's not the type to sit around and rest. He does want to stay by Zelda's side however, but also felt awkward about living with her. So he does this thing where he just checks in with her every few weeks/months but travels around doing tasks for the people. Whenever Zelda wants to travel he's immediately by her side, but once she's back in Hateno he's just "...okay see you later......" and leaves. Zelda wants to tell him to stay a bit longer, but is too uncertain to break that boundary between them. Also she doesn't really want him to feel like he has to stay by her side. She wants him to have his freedom.

But suddenly him being gone for 2 months becomes 6 weeks...then it becomes 1 month...then 2 weeks....then a week...and one day he walks up to Zelda and just says "...can I stay over for the night?"

And so the house in Hateno starts to feel a little less lonely from then on.

#I also find the idea of Link showing up the next day after saying “bye see you in 2 weeks” really funny #he doesn't know how to express that he misses her #link (derogatory) #Hateno house discourse is SOOO funny to me tbh #nintendo you know what you guys are doing you're making us lose it over a fictional house #and possible property theft #OH and zelda and link definitely write letters to each other #all the time #link will also drop lil flowers and plants with his letters to her #to be like “this might be helpful for your research” #(no he just wants to give flowers) #I LOVE POST-BOTW/PRE-TOTK ZELINK!!!! I LOVEEEE #Zelink

[villian555]

Wild Zelink and Botw Princess Zelda haters (especially those who use Reddit) rn:

#fandom discourse #zelink #botw #breath of the wild #legend of zelda #tears of the kingdom #totk

[sophitia-of-hyrule]

Nintendo could literally have Link and Zelda make out and Zelink haters would still insist that they aren't in love

#my post #rant #zelink #shipping discourse #link #princess zelda #totk link #totk zelda #botw link #botw zelda #loz #breath of the wild #botw #tears of the kingdom #totk

[legends-on-legends]

People who get defensive about Ganondorf’s characterization (or lack thereof) in ToTK seem to willfully misunderstand the criticisms we’re making about that game. Nobody’s demanding that Ganondorf have a “tragic backstory” that exonerates him or a “redemption arc,” we’re just asking for the bare minimum: a coherent motivation and some thematic relevance, that’s it. Also, maybe some actual dignity for the Gerudo, too, instead of them getting disproportionately shamed for the deeds of One Guy over ten thousand years ago.

It’s not like ToTK would have had to stretch very far to give Ganondorf that bare minimum, all the ingredients were already there: the Zonai mining activities in the Gerudo region, the “ancient evil” that existed before Ganondorf entered the scene, the Gerudo’s own archaeological site from where they investigated the Depths, etc. Just add like 2 – 3 more backstory scenes focused on developing Ganondorf a little more, put some actual meat on the skeleton of a story we got in ToTK, and there you go.

The fact that some Zelda fans are so vehemently opposed to the bare minimum effort of writing for one of Nintendo’s most iconic villains is honestly baffling. The fact that they’re so opposed to Ganondorf having any semblance of humanity, that they’re apparently fine with Nintendo outsourcing the script for the highly anticipated sequel to one of their most successful games, absolutely bewilders me.

Like…this is definitely a combination of Modern Fandom’s extreme polarization and moral puritanism, plus the Zelda franchise containing conservative themes that a large part of the fandom seems to have internalized, and of course, good ol’ fashioned orientalism.

I’m inclined to mostly blame Modern Fandom because the way that people talk about villain tropes and “redemption arcs” and all that seems to overlap with “antishipper” nonsense. It’s like many young people nowadays are terrified of being judged for the “sin” of liking or relating to the designated Bad Guys, so they have to loudly and repeatedly proclaim that they are Good and Proper Christian Fans who engage with media in the Appropriate Manner, and denounce anyone who wants villains to be interesting or complex.

Even something like ATLA that recently had a revival is seeing Discourse like “Zuko should never have been redeemed bc he’s an evil colonizer, that teenage boy should have been executed instead!!!1! and Aang not killing Ozai at the end means that the writers are trying to excuse/defend genocide!!!1!”

I know it’s not most fans who have this kind of mindset, but dang, it’s getting more common.

#rant post #ganondorf #totk critical #fandom discourse

[autistic-sidon]

The way that a decent chunk of the Zelda fandom still insists on denying one of the most classic and easiest to spot forms of fandom misogyny annoys me to no end. Often in their quest to prove that the way they act about Yona isn't based in misogyny, they unknowingly prove my point. Popular retort being, "she's boring/badly written" even though Link is just as boring and poorly written due to reasons that are worse than Yona's, as well as Sidon's writing being pretty bare bones. I never ever see anyone hating Link and Sidon, nor any other characters who also "came out of nowhere." This, whether people like OR INTEND it, shows misogyny because of the double standard. Male characters are allowed to have bad writing and come out of nowhere, female characters are not.

In fact, another character who came out of nowhere and gets in the way of a ship is Tauro! Nobody and I mean NOBODY complains about him being new, nor do they complain about him getting in the way of Linpaya. (Do not lie to me and say Linpaya isn't as popular as the other ship. Do not.) I hope the reason is obvious. Yona is doomed to be torn apart by the fandom, because she is a newly introduced female character that gets in the way of an androcentric ship. Even if it weren't an mlm ship she got in the way of, people would still be awful of course, but the fact that it's 2 men instead of one, it's completely androcentric and results in people being 200% more awful about it. Because a woman who gets in-between something that is focused only on men is automatically the devil.

If you want a quick example of this same misogyny but instead with m/f ships, a good example is how the fandom treats Mipha. She also "gets in the way" of a ship, Zelink. People constantly call her a groomer, and basically any other evil word you can think of despite the fact that she literally cannot get in the way of Zelink. Because she's dead. And their relationship is still written as unrequited even when she's not dead.

People also like to say that the people who ship Miphlink and Sidyona are evil, which confuses the hell out of me because I've never met a mean Miphlink shipper, and the only evil Sidyona shipper is me. So where do we go from here. I'd also argue that hating a ships fandom because of it's misogyny and making such known isn't evil but I digress. Some people get called evil for simply saying they don't like the ship so idk what these people's qualifications for evil even are.

#loz botw #loz totk #sidon #prince sidon #lady yona #discourse #fandom misogyny #Sidyona #miphlink #zelink #you can see which group of shippers has harassed me the most by which one I refuse to say haha #sucks because I do really want to tag it so some of them can see it and MAYBE change their minds...maybe #and be normal about Yona for a change #but it's not worth the harassment risk 😭 #and if you're curious as to why I think Link is badly written #it's because the writers tried to make him a player insert and character simultaneously #and the main plot suffers because of this decision #it's very hard to read Link's character and to relate to him because the writers made him so distant from us

[rawliverandgoronspice]

not to. Return There. but. I am compelled to burn my wings against the bright light until the end of times, so.

I think that if Totk Ganondorf was ever meant to be a criticism of imperialism, it's a pretty incomplete one without Rauru taken into account.

While Ganon is very representative of the "conquest" aspect as a Strongman Fascist who reveres strength and the violent part of the initial domination, he has no concrete plans of enforcement and structure down the line, no way to preserve his flimsy grip on power (the game makes a point to tell us he doesn't care for survivors and he doesn't ever seem eager to preserve any kind of infrastructure). Rauru --who somehow couldn't "come to the aid" of Hyrule without crowning himself king about it-- isn't about the conquest or the violence, but Hyrule is nothing if not an extremely well oiled system with a centralized religion, coin, language, history, legends and social class self-replicating since the literal beginning of times.

The *very long sigh* imperialism thing isn't about making one of these two egotistical weirdos more righteous than the other: it's about acknowledging the parallels, even if the game itself throws hissy fits at the mere suggestion Ganondorf and Rauru are two characters who are begging to be compared (and even make vague strides that they should be during cutscenes, though they are not super specific and immediatey dissolve into a little puddle of nothing, I'll give you that willingly), because if Ganondorf represents stage 1: the conquest... then Rauru should represent stage 2: the consolidation.

And the fact that the game is desperate to refute that these two kingly idiots adhere to the same fundamental system of governance (and the one who's deeply into the concept of centralization and automation and leveling of culture and repression of literal identity through the liberal use of masks not being the chaotic dramaqueen on his edgy unicorn giggling to himself about awkward murder scenes) feels like pretty offputting denial --because, truly, what is so scary about noticing the similarities? Wouldn't it be enriching and worth the conversation?

What are we so afraid of?

#thoughts #totk #totk critical #ganondorf #rauru #when will my brain return from the imprisoning war... #the forbidden imperialism debate #I KNOW I said I wouldn't speak of it anymore!!! ;_; #I'm weak of the resolve u_u #+ very stressed out #so I guess that??? makes me want to pour boiling hot discourse oil all over my body??? #I should be doing literally anything else than writing this but #yeah that's a good recap of what bothers me about totk #it's the Denial #it just seeps through everything and makes the world contrived and actively fighting itself

[errorwarblesrr]

Okay I gotta rant, I'm going to state rn this post is neither pro or anti Zelink.

I wish people could stop arguing over the canonicity of BOTW/TOTK Zelink. Idk I've seen a lot of arguments on it, like both sides are trying to checkmate each other. It's annoying.

I remember back when articles twisted the words of Zelda's VA, and a bunch of people were rude about it. Both sides. Then, when she clarified what she actually meant, there was a whole fit about it.

These games are about player freedom. Nintendo also wants Link, this one especially, to reflect the player. They want to keep it ambiguous and up to interpretation, yes we know Zelda loves Link but we in fact still don't know how Link feels about her.

Even stuff that can be used as evidence still have some ambiguity to it, for example Link's old house. It can be used as evidence for both sides and be up to interpretation for whether they are or aren't living together. On one hand this was Link's old house and Zelda lives there now, Zelda has his hairband, she says he always remains by his side, he can sleep on her bed, the table is set for two, and she has to hide the new tunic. On the other hand no one recognizes the house as Link's anymore it's only referred to as Zelda's house and his belongings are gone outside of the champions picture, there is one twin sized bed with one pillow and it's also important to note couples in this game sleep in seperate beds, Link can get a house in Terry Town, people talk to him as if he also doesn't normally go there, and there's an npc that Zelda isn't one to turn people away from her house so Link has permission to visit. There is room for interpretation and to come up with different reasonings for both sides.

This isn't me confirming or denying this Zelink but to show there is strong evidence for BOTH sides because it is meant to be ambiguous and up to interpretation.

There's also Link just not emoting for any cutscene he is in with her. I believe this is so you can interpret him feeling whatever you want him to feel (though personally I would rather him emote). He doesn't show any emotion when he learns the truth about her, when they reunite, or when the sages pledge to serve her. This is a stark contrast to the Zelinks that are pretty much canon like in Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks. In both of these games there are very clear feelings for one another with Skyward Sword even having a romance theme for them. These Link's will emote and show how they feel in the moment with Zelda.

The point is it's tiring to see arguments on it. Civil discussions are fine, but heated debates are pointless. Aonuma says he wants people to see themselves in Link, and Aonuma also wants things to be open-ended and up for interpretation (like botws placement in the title). I haven't even touched on people hating on other ships (like miphlink and what not). I just think we should all be mindful, you know? You ship this Zelink? Great! You don't? Also, great! Both can coexist because, at the end of the day, neither is canon.

#the legend of zelda #tears of the kingdom #totk #botw #breath of the wild #rant #shipping discourse #also this isnt targeted at anyone in particular or just one social media site #this is just something ive been seeing all over the place so

[rioblitzle]

i guess im not too involved in the zelda fandom cause seeing a post about rabid totk defenders is wild to me. from my perspective people were singing that game's praises for 2 months total before it fell to the "popular game bad actually" criticism wave and i don't think i've seen anyone say positive things about totk since then lmfao

#maybe it's just twitter's algorithm showing me discourse and criticism to try and spark engagement or whatever #ive experienced the same thing with mario odyssey which sucks cause i DID get into that game well after release but whatever #i think the game has plenty of flaws but is still like. one of the best games on the switch and that's not an insult to the switch #and most of my writing issues are 'well this sucks but also makes reasonable sense within the constraints of the game design' #like the lack of sheikah tech or the repetition with the backstory cutscenes with the sages #ive also never been super interested in trying to piece together the timeline or linked universe fan stuff but that might just be me #i feel like botw/totk is way better when you view it as a retelling of the zelda universe and give up on trying to reason with the timeline #for making a direct botw sequel on the same map w the same formula and still trying to make it fresh they knocked it out of the park imo #at least in regards to gameplay? #i acknowledge that there is a MASSIVE flaw in the non linear gameplay clashing w the linear story cutscenes this time #(... but that one didn't personally affect me since i saw the memories in mostly the right order and the story hit me weirdly hard) #but anyways yeah where are all the mean totk defenders i keep hearing about i thought that game fell out of the public consciousness #all i still see about it is NintendoMarioJimmy47536 on twitter calling it 'mid af' or whatever #and occasional gorgeous paintings of the light dragon on my dash

[deuynndoodles]

[id: a low quality screenshot from the video game tears of the kingdom. it shows link standing in his tarry town dream home, notably with the bedroom unit upside down. the bed is on the ceiling. end id]

i dont fucking know why granteson didnt tell me abt this

#rambles #totk #i should not be allowed in construction work ever #in other news! aside from vidow discourse lol

[radiosummons]

I have no horse in this race, but I am kind of enjoying the lavender marriage angle a lot of SidLink shippers are going with. Mostly because it's above and beyond way better than a lot of the super sexist and hyper misogynistic vitriol that a certain portion of the LoZ fandom was spouting a few days ago.

But also, of course I am absolutely going to dig more queer headcanons!!!! I love this angle so much!!!!

Gimme more queer LoZ characters, I don't care how major or minor they are. I don't care if it's fanon or canon, either. If y'all wanna headcanon Yona as a lesbian, dude I am so fucking down you don't gotta convince me otherwise!!!!

#radio plays #radio talks #loz fandom #fandom discourse #totk #totk spoilers #totk yona #totk sidon #sidlink #totk link #more queers in any media #is always a good thing #also i am lowkey #a major sucker #for lavender marriages #where both parties can be friends #and support each other #finding love #that shit is always hella good

[hylianassassin]

More Scy babbling:

I still like the idea that Rauru is kind of Link's patron in a way. Ganon has Demise, Zelda has Hylia, but Link never really had a divine counterpart. I read Rauru as a reckless, free spirited sort of guy who tries his best to be wise, but sometimes his emotions do get the better of him. One thing is certain though, he has courage in droves. So yeah I like to think he's the final piece in the holy trifecta.

Not to mention that the Zonai themselves are so heavily associated with the Faron region and the spring of courage.

Feel free to disagree of course <3

Just more headcanons.

#tears of the kingdom #TotK spoilers #Rauru #Link #Again if my ideas don't agree with yours that's fine #There's no need for discourse over headcanons. #Sorry if I sound repetitive about it but I've seen Fandoms shred themselves apart just because some headcanons don't mesh #Can't we all just enjoy our media together? #I'll stop preaching now #I'm tired #Goodnight