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wolf-queer-discourse · 3 years

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Adventures in Aphobia #3

My last two Adventures in Aphobia both took on similar flavors of eye-rolling at shameless, obvious bigotry to anyone willing to look or care. But today, I found a different type of aphobia, and I’m actually eager to talk about this one. Have a read of this first.

Look, the bar of respect for ace people is so low it’s all the way in hell, but I mean, to many people, especially allosexual people, they may look at this post and think, “No, this isn’t aphobia. The poster wasn’t blatantly cruel.” But what some fail to realize is that politeness can be the thinnest of veils over the ugliest of takes. Polite bigotry gaslights the victims into thinking they can’t be upset about this.

So what’s the deal with this post?

PARAGRAPH #1 starts off innocently enough, saying ace discourse wouldn’t exist if people recognized complex relationships to sex and relationships. Even taken on its own, I do not agree with this. Ace discourse ranges all the way from outright denial of asexual existence to the strong hatred for and exclusion of aces from the queer community. Nearly everyone recognizes people have complex relationships to sex...that...that doesn’t mean ace people won’t be discriminated against. In fact, it’s an argument aphobes use constantly to try and gaslight ace people into erasing themselves. Ace discourse comes from a lot of places, but at the end of the day, it all stems from people’s refusal to acknowledge ace people and their unique experiences. This poster absolutely does not get to say “IT’s CoMpLicAteD”, and expect ace people to just disappear. Honestly, it’d be better and more honest if they said “Lol, ace people should go fuck themselves and hop to the back of the line with everyone else.”

PARAGRAPH #2 and #3 are not very objectionable on their own. Everything said is true. Society has very complicated views on sex, and life happens to all people. The ugly part of this is that the poster is setting up an argument here in which they will hand wave ace people into the “everyone else” crowd and pretend as if we’re all just too similar and no labels should even exist.

This is literally what enby-phobes do. They say “Well, gender is COMPLICATED”, which is true, but then they say “So like...aren’t we all really nonbinary when we think about it? Why should enby people label themselves?” I swear we’ve all seen this. The poster is agender. This argument could easily be whipped in their face. Different forms of bigotry can share very clear overlaps, and it’s very important to acknowledge where these arguments come from and why they exist. It exists as a way to shut people up. It happens to bi people too! Every day, people come out as bi and someone tells them “pff, everyone thinks girls are hot. I had a crush on my best friend once, that doesn’t mean I’m not straight! All people are like this!” Let’s call out this erasure where we see it. It’s not the same thing, and if anyone saying stuff like this truly believes what they’re saying, maybe they’re the ones who need to reevaluate their own identity.

PARAGRAPH #4 dips its ugly toes straight into blatant aphobia, having the gall to call ace and aro people “obsessed” with pretending their relationships with sex and romance are wholly unique and different. Nah, fuck right off with that bullshit. The poster even goes on to say ace people have created entire new social classes. Uh...WHAT? Is there some secret ace society with a caste system living in the shadows?? What is this person talking about?? I suppose you can’t be a true bigot unless you have some vague grievance to weakly hand-gesture at that you couldn’t prove given 20 years to do so. For the love of my sanity, just say you hate ace people! It’s okay! (I mean, not actually, but Jesus Christ does it save us all some time). They also say things like “somehow excluded from”. Replace asexual people with nonbinary people and take a joyride through this section, because the arguments are scarily similar. What would it take for this poster to acknowledge ace and aro people have their own experiences? Seriously, what? What holds you back from doing this?

It’s also funny to note the actual lack of substance to this argument. The poster is not giving any specific examples or even bringing up what being ace and aro mean. Yes, there is a pretty noticeable difference between feeling sexual attraction and not feeling sexual attraction. How many “allo” people do you know that say they’ve NEVER experienced this? Come on. The poster reduces asexuality and aromanticism down to allo people’s, in their own words, hyper-specific contexts where they don’t want sex or love. At least the poster admits any circumstance that allo people are comparable to ace people are extremely specific. But for real, are we hinging a whole argument on a few very specific examples of allo people having some similarity to ace people?

“Nothing about your relationship to sex or love makes you more or less LGBT. If you are gay and don’t want to have sex, ever, you are still gay. “

Mini strawman alert for the idea any ace person thinks you’re less gay if you’re also ace. And bonus points for an aphobe who refuses to use the definition of asexuality: not experiencing sexual attraction, and instead goes for “don’t want to have sex”. For the last. Fucking. Time. Not wanting to have sex and being asexual are NOT the same. Don’t make me pour gasoline in my eyes every time I see this.

After this, the poster goes on a tangent, which by the tone, seems to think it's very inspiring, and says no matter how you want to have sex (including only certain days of the week), you’re still straight! It’s so fucking condescending and gross to talk ace people out of their own identity like this.

“EVERY person who is heterosexual is different in how they perform or experience.”

Oh. My. GOD. THEY DIDN’T EVEN SAY STRAIGHT. THEY SAID HETEROSEXUAL. WUGGYUEGYUG. God help me. Can one be both bisexual and heterosexual? No…? Okay. So then. How is one both asexual AND heterosexual? What single brain cell in this poster’s head was responsible for this Chad of a sentence? I—

*deep breath*

So. It’s interesting how the poster says “perform or experience it”. Asexuality is an identity. It is not a performance, and it is not defined by your actions. A straight person not having sex does not become asexual. And sure...people with the same label can experience their sexuality differently, but...to a point, guys. You can’t experience your sexuality out of the DEFINITION of the label. Heterosexual: Sexual attraction to the opposite gender. Asexual: Sexual attraction to no one. If a “heterosexual” isn’t sexually attracted to anyone, they are by definition, not heterosexual. It takes insane mental gymnastics to make this argument, so A for flexibility, I guess?

“Gayness, straightness, and bisexuality are not defined by HOW you do or don’t want sex or HOW you do or don’t want to date, it’s just defined by WHO you want to be with.”

The first part of the sentence is correct, but it also defeats this person’s entire argument. Ace people AGREE with this. Being asexual is not the act of not having sex!! It’s not experiencing sexual attraction! You can google this! The second part of the sentence is mostly correct, depending on your interpretation. The issue is in part with the words the poster used: gayness, straightness and bisexuality. These words are not all equivalents. Gay could refer to sexual and or romantic orientation. Thus an ace gay person. Straightness is not actually an equal word to gayness. This is because straight is an exclusive term for a normative sexuality (in society’s eyes) in terms of sexual and romantic attraction. Some ace people DO call themselves straight, though it’s inaccurate. Ace people can be heteroromantic, but because being straight is so exclusive, you need to be both sexually AND romantically attracted to only the opposite gender.

The post basically ends telling ace people they’re all actually straight and were just confused the whole time. Lovely. And an erasure of gay aces too! Believe it or not, gay ace people do not like having their ace identities erased. Who’d have guessed?

Honestly, if anything this post is just kind of sad. A sad reflection of what people believe and how they truly do not see their own bigotry. They believe they’re freeing ace people from an incorrect label. They’re the heroes.

They’ll say “it’s okay, you’re not asexual” as if they've like...lifted a burden off of ace people. Like, “Oh, you think I’m not asexual? Cool, cool. Glad you cleared that up for me!” It’s sad how aphobes think, some very genuinely, that asexuality is just some high school party that went off the rails, and we’re all just coming out of the drunken haze, ready to go home. Ready to all laugh about it later, tease one another about how wild and silly it all was.

Having your identity erased like this is fucking horrible, and I hope people like this can take a look in the mirror and see themselves clearly. All ace and aro people have a right to their identity, whether gay, bi, heteroromantic or anything else. End of story.

#discourse #queer discourse #LGBT discourse #Adventures in Aphobia #ace discourse #asexual discourse #aphobia #ace #ace discrimination #asexual #asexuality #aromantic #aro #LGBT #queer #rant #why does this post think it's so intellegent #why did this post try so hard to sound nice at first #it's still aphobia

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boys-night · 3 years

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Mickey and Ian - communication, sex, and relationship styles, post 11x07

Here’s my take on how Ian and Mickey relate to sexuality and relationship styles, thinking mainly about 11x07, but also looking more broadly at the series and including HoS. If you’re not interested in incorporating 11x07 in your version of canon, ignore this! I enjoyed 11x07 but I understand people have different ways of seeing Ian and Mickey’s relationship. I’m also doing the classic meta thing of taking seriously exaggerated/comic/contradictory elements in the show because that’s how I roll.

Super long post under cut.

I’ve been reading Sexuality: A Graphic Guide by Meg-John Barker and Jules Scheele which is where a lot of the following ideas and terminology come from. I’ve also been looking at Meg-John Barker’s free relationship zine on their website rewritingtherules.com. I highly recommend their work, including the podcast they have with Justin Hancock, The Meg-John and Justin podcast (although MJ has left now and it’s called Culture, Sex, Relationships, but you can check out the backlog!)

They think about sex and relationship styles using various models including monogamy/polyamory, allosexuality/asexuality, romance/aromance etc. They look at these different facets of sexuality/relationship styles as complicated continua rather than binaries which shift over time. They also write about sexuality on an action/identity spectrum, communication strategies around relationships styles, and the windows into relationships. Here, I’m looking at all of these things thinking about Ian and Mickey’s relationship and as individuals within the relationship.

The monogamy/polyamory continuum

I’ve seen a bit of debate about how to label Mickey and Ian’s relationship on the monogamy/polyamory spectrum and I think it’s a pretty complex question especially considering those labels mean different things to different people and that relationships shift a lot over time. While labels like these can be useful, they can also be rigid and restrictive in their own ways.

Some terms that come close-ish to what they say they’ve decided in 11x07 are monoamorous and polysexual, considering they aren’t at all interested in romantic connections outside of each other but are up for sex (in a broad sense) with other people. But these terms don’t account for the agreement that they’re only exploring sex with other people when they’re together.

As people have pointed out, some of the boundary setting around exactly how they’re involving other people in the relationship is left off-screen, and also they’re not necessarily going to form identities around how they act in one episode. I’ve also seen people suggest reading their relationship style as monagamish and/or that what they do with other people is part of kink/play. I think these make sense in different ways and that in 11x07 Ian and Mickey definitely focus more on what they do (action) rather than who they are (identity) in regards to monogamy/polyamory.

In 11x01, Ian’s focus is more on identity. He sets up a binary choice between being monagamous or not in their relationship. 11x07 indicates they’ve moved through off-screen discussion into a much more personalised arrangement with more focus on actions allowing for flexibility over time. In 11x07, we see them agree on rules: sex in a broad sense is allowed outside of the primary partnership, love isn’t. They keep negotiations ongoing (e.g. in the bedroom, in the furniture store), and there is an indication that these rules could change over time.

I’d love to read/explore more about the ways in which this approach has changed over the course of the whole show. At the start of their relationship, definitely prior to s4, they have much more implicit rules about who they can have sex with, and those implicit rules become problematic in s5, when they realise they’re not completely on the same page regarding them. They bring up clashing ideas around the rules when Mickey’s leaving prison in s10 too. In s11, their relationship becomes more intentional, with these rules stated aloud rather than assumed.

The action/identity continuum in regards to gay sexuality

On a slight tangent, I think there’s a comparison to be made here to how they relate to sexuality (specifically gender of attraction) and the idea of gay identity, which seems to develop in the other direction. For Mickey especially, for a long time having sex with men was something he did rather than something he was, and that’s gradually somewhat shifted over the course of the show. There’s so much more that can be explored here, for instance, about how the action-based approach is much more acceptable within the hyper-masculine environment he was raised. Terry also approaches it this way when talking about prison sex, for example. According to this very oppressive social script, having sex with men in certain circumstances can be OK but claiming that as part of who you are is absolutely not.

But I also want to stress, I don’t think either approach to gay sexuality, looking at it through actions or through identity, is inherently better or worse. These different lenses on sexuality also intersect with class and levels of education. As explored in Sexuality: A Graphic Guide, the identity approach is also relatively a very modern way of seeing sexuality (late 20th century). Gender of attraction is also only one facet of sexuality (which includes amount of sex you want, type of sex, sexual roles etc.) but its now often regarded as the only or most important facet of sexuality. The identity-based approach is much more acceptable within the more aspirational/middle class settings they interact with in s10 and s11. In these seasons, Mickey and to a lesser extent Ian aren’t completely willing to accept it wholesale. I like how, for example, even well after “coming out”, Mickey often still approaches sexuality through actions rather than identity, e.g. his response to the woman at the flower shop asking if he’s a homosexual: “He is, I just like having another man’s dick up my ass.”

However, I also think it’s cool/interesting how Ian and Mickey both move towards and embrace various parts of mainstream gay identity in s11 too, and a large part of that involves combatting the sexism, femmephobia, and hypermasculinity with which they were raised, e.g. of course, singing and dancing to Lady Gaga and Ariana Grande in the bathroom.

You could also look at the different ideas about the origins of their gay sexuality in HoS through this lens. Mickey goes for a psychological/behavioural approach (based in like early 20th century sexological theories); Ian goes for a born-this-way, biological/genetic approach (popularised in the 1980s as part of gay pride movements).

Mickey’s approach is very old school (definitely a way of thinking that reflects his upbringing), which assumes straight is the norm from which gay deviates, to do with Freudian theory/the idea of homosexuality as pathology. He doesn’t, for example, seek to use the same model (Fiona’s bad relationship history) to explain why Lip is straight. Ian’s approach (”not because I was born this way?”) reflects his investment in the intractability of sexuality related to his strict opposition to conversion therapy models and the idea of being gay as a choice. It also reflects the way he reacts negatively/disbelievingly to Debbie’s more flexible sexuality (in s8?). While obviously it’s fucked up/impossible to force people to change their sexuality and it’s perfectly reasonable for him to define the origins of his own sexuality however he wants, this approach risks excluding more fluid experiences of sexuality.

Again, Mickey’s approach is more behavioural/action oriented and Ian’s is more identity oriented. They both seem pretty willing to shift their ideas around this though (especially Mickey, who potentially is just regurgitating old stuff he’s heard without thinking). The concluding thought is that Ian is gay because he likes Mickey’s d, lol.

Individual differences on sex and relationship continua

I really like the detail that Ian doesn't want to have sex and be friends with anyone else aside from Mickey. In 11x07, he doesn't want to make friends with the guys in the locker room although he's down for repeat sexual experiences which suggests he thinks he forms romantic attachment through a combination of both sex and friendship. It seems like it's important to him in his negotiation with Mickey that they don't form romantic attachments outside of their own relationship.

This relates back to the 87% thing in HoS where Ian says he tends to get at least slightly attached to everyone he has sex with and Mickey has 87% of his heart. Mickey doesn’t like the 87% thing at all but I reckon it outlines a really interesting difference between the two characters in regards to relationship styles. It indicates that Ian is comfortable with a slightly less mononormative way of doing nurturance/care than Mickey, while Mickey seems to initiate more of the polysexuality than Ian in 11x07. (Although of course, we don’t see how Ian would react if Mickey were to tell him he’s got 87% of his heart! -- but this is a very difficult to imagine scenario).

Sex is a big part of their relationship for both of them. Both Ian and Mickey seem pretty allosexual (e.g. they feel sexual attraction for other people generally), but Mickey is possibly even more so than Ian. Mickey also maybe falls on the aromantic/grayromantic spectrum (once again, the labels can be really useful but I don’t want to be too prescriptive/rigid). Ian seems to be more alloromantic, with a capacity to experience romantic attraction to a whole bunch of people. For him, sex and romance seem to be more interconnected in all cases although he can definitely separate the two (especially when thinking about transactional sex etc).

But I think it's more complex than that. For instance, Mickey reserves certain sexual acts for just between him and Ian and its clear that they have both intimacy and exploration in their sex life. From the outset, Ian and Mickey’s relationship involves exploration and excitement with sex, and provides a freedom to explore their sexualities in regards to sexual roles and kink. It’s clear that Mickey values the safe space Ian specifically gives him in this regard from very early on in their relationship. There’s a parallel here with the bathroom Gaga/Grande scene where Ian’s instinct isn’t to tease or make fun of Mickey but support him embracing more stereotypical gay behaviours and/or more fluid gender roles to the ones he’s grown up with outside of sex too.

Also it might be useful to complicate the idea of romance itself which is a really difficult idea to pin down and which seems to mean different things for both of them. I love the stress on friendship in 11x07. Friendship and also family connection play such key parts in their relationship with one another and the way in which they are attached, arguably even more so than traditional models romance. Both HoS and the Hopper painting discussion are interesting to think about in regards to the ways Ian and Mickey think about the concept of romance differently and the ways it intersects with or differs from their ideas around friendship/family. I like how Mickey’s willing to see getting a coffee together as romantic in a positive way for instance after Ian explains that it’s about togetherness in hard times. While maybe Mickey sees Ian’s suggestion of having a bath together as awkward/weird because he views it more as trying to live up to a social script of what is “romantic”.

Communication strategies around relationship styles

In s11, Ian and Mickey’s relationship is very entwined, and, in comparison to Tami and Lip, for instance, they disclose a lot to each other. Ian asks that they tell each other everything, and although Mickey is more resistant to that initially, he becomes much more forthcoming with his feelings in s11 (around Terry, around moving to the West Side, around becoming a parent).

While I appreciate Ian’s role in initiating more communication between the two of them, I felt sorry for Mickey in their initial discussion in 11x01 in re “monogamous or not”. The turning over the paper method is a pretty binary way to open up a discussion about a very charged and complicated thing.

They do seem to complement each other in this regard though with Ian generally more keen to initiate conversation but also getting more trapped into binaries, narratives of normativity and should-stories. While Mickey totally still projects an image that is informed by local expectations around masculinity and white supremacy, he’s also a rule-breaker in many ways and doesn’t have the same desire to conform to what society perceives to be “normal” (thanks HoS), especially behind closed doors and within his relationship with Ian (“liking what I like don’t make me a bitch”). @fiona-fififi had a really good point in the tags a while back about how Mickey’s investment in their wedding and its success might have spurred Ian on further to embrace more normative ways of doing relationships. This is super interesting, and also makes me think just about how being married itself prompts Ian to think about taking a more active role in pushing the relationship further up the relationship escalator and in pushing for more communication around these steps in general.

There’s also something to be said about pressurising each other in 11x07, especially when they jokingly(?) threaten each other with sex with other men if both of them aren’t around. I doubt they were making these suggestions seriously but it definitely doesn’t strike me as the most consensual method of communication. But there’s parallels here with generally using sex as a bargaining chip earlier on in the season. Ian seems to do that after having exhausted his attempts at trying to have conversations around money/monogamy etc, as a tried and tested way of getting Mickey to engage with him. And it definitely reflects using sex with each other and sex/relationships with other people (e.g. s3 Angie/Ned, s10 Byron/Cole) as modes of communication in earlier seasons. It kind of makes sense that they still have these habits in s11 even if they are no longer the primary mode of communication.

Ian and Mickey relied so much on implicit communication in the early seasons and they have highly developed nonverbal ways of communicating. I don’t want to say that either verbal or nonverbal ways of communicating are inherently better than the other. They seem to understand each other on a deep level, which is really cool, but people have pointed out can make them think they don’t need to verbally communicate when they do, because they assume that they’ll understand one another and be on the same page. It’s super interesting to see them maintain that deep connection and continue to use nonverbal cues while also adopting more explicit and intentional communication styles in s10 and s11.

The windows of their relationship

The fandom is always bringing up how Ian and Mickey leave the doors open when they bang, lol, and also making fun of how much Ian overshares. I think this is v fair but it also strikes me as pretty healthy that he wants people to see into his and Mickey’s relationship, especially in his discussions with Lip. But Ian’s got plenty of people around him who can see and help when things get tough.

In s11, it’s great to see Mickey get closer to the Gallagher family and see various members defending him or taking his side in arguments, but he definitely does have less of an on-screen support system than Ian. (I wish that they had developed his and Sandy’s relationship in s11). I think the aftermath of the City Hall incident in s10 really reveals this particular imbalance in their relationship. On one level, Mickey moves in with Byron as a reaction to being hurt and even maybe a strategy of revenge/manipulation, on another, he doesn’t really have anywhere to go aside from the Gallagher house when/if he needs to get away from Ian. Also, the way he retreats back to the Gallagher house when he can’t deal with the Westside is an interesting development of this in s11.

Ian’s need to share stuff about their relationship is kind of exciting considering his history of being unforthcoming about his relationships (and his history of being in a lot of secret relationships), as well as how difficult he found it to talk about Mickey while Mickey was away. But there is a different problem with ongoing talk around privacy and boundaries here too (Mickey doesn’t want Ian to chat about how he’s not into rimming!). Although to be fair, Mickey also chats about a lot of explicit sex stuff with strangers.

Although they do ultimately decide against pursuing the pretty inorganic way of making friends in 11x07, Ian’s desire to make gay friends who he can talk to about relationship stuff makes sense in terms of the way he has been pushing for a more intentional relationship with more communication and more explicit discussion and compromise this season (and last season too). It also intersects with an idea of him/both of them going further to embrace gay sexuality as an identity.

It’s interesting that Mickey’s the one to initiate this decision through ribbing Ian about his relationship with Lip. Why’s Mickey doing that? Is it just to be a little shit or is he also trying (subconsciously?) to activate Ian in some direction? (And also, maybe there’s a parallel there to getting their apartment in the west side, where Mickey’s the one inadvertently introducing Ian to the idea by pushing for them to go play in the pool).

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There’s a lot here which is just scratching the surface of thinking about Ian and Mickey’s relationship in the context of these different sexuality and relationship continua. For e.g. it would be really interesting to think more about this stuff in terms of shifting sex roles and kink exploration. Of course it’s all up for interpretation and I am sure I am highlighting areas that I’m personally interested in and inadvertently projecting myself/my own preferences and styles into this discussion. Very down for disagreements and discussions if other people are interested and manage to read all of this, lol.

#Ian x Mickey #Gallavich #shameless meta #shameless 11x07 #sexuality #relationships #Meg-John Barker #shameless s11 #Ian Gallagher #Mickey Milkovich #why did i write all of this?#Shameless HoS

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hella-aro · 6 years

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Allosexual aromantic survey results

Hello! Here are the results of the survey I ran asking a few questions to allosexual aromantic people. I’m putting the data, together with a couple things I have to say, under the cut in order not to make this post too long. Just to be clear, the size sample is not very big, and since the survey link was only posted on tumblr, results will not necessarily be indicative of the whole community.

The first question was there as control. It asked if people were aromantic and allosexual, and if the person selected “no”, it took them at the end of the survey. Out of a total of 535 responses, there were 53 “no”s, which means the number of people who actually participated goes down to 482.

To the question, What is you romantic orientation?, out of 482 people

- 267 (55.4%) identified as aromantic

- 174 (36.1%) identified as arospec (demi, grey, etc.)

- 41 (8.5%) answered questioning

To, What is your gender identity?, out of 482 people

- 206 (42.5%) identified as cis women

- 72 (14.9%) identified as nonbinary

- 45 (9.3%) identified as trans men

- 33 (6.8%) identified as genderfluid

- 28 (5.8%) identified as agender

- 27 (5.6%) answered questioning

- 25 (5.2%) identified as cis men

- 20 (4.1%) identified as demigender

- 3 (0.6%) identified as trans women

These were the options I had given in the survey, in addition to this, 4 (0.8%) people identified as bigender, 3 (0.6%) people identified as nonbinary trans men, and 2 (0.4%) people identified as genderqueer. Other gender identities people included were bigender/genderqueer, guy (don’t want to disclose if trans), bigenderfluid, demigirl/demiboy, does not label gender, utrinque girl, fluidflux, nb/agender/transmasc/queer, neutrois, genderqueer multigender, neurogender, agenderflux, genderless woman, transmasculine genderqueer, all of which got 1 response each.

To, What is your sexual orientation?, out of 482 people

- 154 (32%) identified as bisexual

- 98 (20.3%) identified as pansexual

- 59 (12.2%) identified as heterosexual

- 41 (8.5%) answered questioning

- 39 (8.1%) answered I do not label my sexual orientation

- 31 (6.4%) identified as lesbian

- 19 (3.9%) identified as gay

- 10 (2.1%) identified as abrosexual

- 5 (1%) identified as polysexual

These were the options I had given, in addition to this 3 (0.6%) people identified as queer. Other identities were pansexual but multiple microlabels apply, androsexual/queer, toric, questioning grey-bisexual, homosexual but not comfortable using lesbian because of other attractions, homosexual, straight or queer with a strong preference for men or abrosexual, questioning bi/gay/ace, anyone except girls, questioning lesbian, omnisexual, both bi and ply, a combination of bi and pan, queer/questioning, fluctuating, all of which received 1 response each. One response was transphobic, and I will therefore not share it.

In addition, 7 (1.4%) people gave answers for identities that were part of the asexual spectrum (specifically, demi-bi, propeestsexual, pan-akoisexual, asexual, demisexual, acespike, greysexual), now while I have not erased any of these responses, as I suppose these people had their reason to take part in this survey and the number is low enough to not significantly skew the results, I would like to ask ace people to please, let allosexual aromantics have their own things. Aromanticism and asexuality are already very conflated, and while obviously aroace people deserve to be heard so do allo aro people. Can we please make our stuff, thank you? (More on this, towards the end)

On another note, the total percentage of m-spec people (counting bi, pan, ply people and those who put their own m-spec labels as well) is 55% of the total. This means statistically the most represented group in the survey was cis multisexual women.

To, Do you experience other types of attraction other than sexual?, out of 479 people

- 376 (78.5%) stated they feel platonic attraction

- 361 (75.4%) stated they feel aesthetic attraction

- 246 (51.4%) stated they feel sensual attraction

- 156 (32.5%) stated they feel alterous attraction

- 39 (8.1%) stated they don’t feel any of the above or don’t find them meaningful

In addition, three people stated they were unsure, one person stated they feel emotional attraction, one person stated they feel kindred spirit attraction, one person stated they feel queerplatonic attraction, one person stated they cannot conceptualize those attractions. One person has given a description of the way they feel attraction which I’ll quote, “I feel like it's a triangle spectrum, with aesthetic/sexual/romantic attraction on the corners, and sensuous/alterous/platonic somewhere in that triangle”. Keep in mind people were allowed to choose more than one of these, so the total numbers are higher than the number of respondents

To, If you experience any of the mentioned attraction, are they more or less important to you than your sexual attraction?, out of 460 people

- 221 (48%) said they are about equally important

- 174 (37.8%) said their other attraction(s) are more important to them than their sexual attraction

- 65 (14.1%) said their sexual attraction is more important to them than their other attraction(s)

To, If you experience any of the mentioned attractions, do they align with your sexual attraction?, out of 462 people

- 183 (39.6%) stated they don’t find it meaningful to label their other attractions

- 124 (26.8%) stated that some of them do, others don’t

- 121 (26.2%) stated that they are aligned

- 34 /7.4%) stated that they are not aligned

To, Do you feel the way you experience sexuality is different from that of an alloromantic person due to your aromanticism?, out of 482 people

- 303 (62.9%) said yes

- 143 (29.7%) said maybe

- 36 (7.5%) said no

To, Do you think your aromanticism made it difficult to identify your sexual orientation or viceversa?, out of 482 people

- 246 (51%) said experiencing sexual attraction made it harder to identify their aromanticism

- 126 (26.1%) said being aromantic made it harder to identify their sexual attraction

- 57 (11.8%) said they didn’t know

- 53 (11%) said they didn’t have issues like this

To, Do you feel your aromanticism or you sexual attraction is more important than the other?, out of 481 people

- 253 (52.6%) said they are about equally important

- 167 (34.7%) said their aromanticism is more important

- 61 (12.7%) said their sexual attraction is more important

To, Do you feel connected to the community of your sexual orientation?, out of 480 people

- 204 (42.5%) said yes, sometimes

- 99 (20.6%) said no, because of my aromanticism

- 90 (18.8%) said yes, always

- 87 (18.1%) said no, because of reasons unrelated to my aromanticism

To, Do you feel connected to the aromantic community?, out of 480 people

- 217 (45.2%) said yes, sometimes

- 170 (35.4%) said yes, always

- 71 (14.8%) said no, because of reasons unrelated to my sexuality

- 22 (4.6%) said no, because of my sexuality

Out of the people who said they don’t feel connected to the community of their sexuality due to their aromanticism, 45.5% stated they feel connected to the aromantic community sometimes, 36.4% feel always connected with it, while 10.1% don’t feel connected to it due to reasons unrelated to their sexuality. 8.1% said they don’t feel connected with it due to their sexuality.

On the other side, out of people who said they don’t feel connected to the aromantic community due to their sexuality, 40.9% said they feel connected to the community of their sexual orientation sometimes, 18.2% felt always connected with it, while 4.5% don’t feel connected to it due to reasons unrelated to their aromanticism. 36.4% said they don’t feel connected with it due to their aromanticism.

Now, a not: before I share data for the last two questions, I have to say that I made a mistake in how I made them. These questions asked people if someone ever assumed things about them due to them being aromantic and allosexual, however I did not ask beforehand if people had come out or not. Because of this, the answers also include those of people who never came out, who obviously have never had anything assumed about them upon doing so. I apologize for this mistake, once I realized it I had already received a high number of responses and couldn’t change it at that point. I’ll report the percentages I got, but remember the numbers are not completely correct.

To, Have you ever been accused of being predatory due to being allosexual aromantic?, out of 480 people

- 209 (43.5%) said no, never. This number also includes people who never came out

- 118 (24.6%) said yes, once or twice

- 94 (19.6%) said unsure

- 59 (12.3%) said yes, many times

To, Have you ever had anyone assume your levels of sexual activity due to being allosexual aromantic?, out of 479 people

- 196 (40.9%) said no, never. This number also includes people who never came out

- 116 (24.2%) said unsure

- 91 (19%) said yes, once or twice

- 76 (15.9%) said yes, many times

The last part of the survey asked people if they had additional comments to leave. I won’t copy paste all of them, otherwise this post would get terribly long, but I’ll give a basic rundown.

First of all, many people stated that being allosexual and aromantic leads them to being stereotyped as cold, selfish and sex-obsessed, and some said they refrain from engaging in sexual relationships even when they would want one because they are scared they will be expected to develop feelings for their partner. At the same time, some allosexual aros feel excluded from lgbt+/queer spaces. This hasn’t just come from heterosexual aros, but from otherwise queer aros as well, because they feel they will fall under the stereotype of the “bad” sexually promiscuous queer. I’ll give examples:

- even though i would like to have sexual relationships i’m afraid to pursue any because i’m worried the person will think i want to approach them romantically as well or i’ll accidentally lead someone on because they’ll think i have feelings for them so i don’t have sex with anyone and it makes me question my sexuality too because then it’s like “well if you’re afraid to have sex with anyone do you even really want to in the first place” so that’s my biggest issue currently if that helps

- being straight (or generally perceived as straight; it's really hard to tell because my different types of attraction make it really hard to tell and it's generally easier to find male partners) and arospec makes me feel unwanted by both groups. Around non queer people I have to hide being aro to keep from being accused of being abusive or "just a whore". I've gotten accusations like "you only like me for sex" after coming out. Around other queer people I'm told I'm unwelcome and feel like I have to provide a thesis on my experiences and a stamp from like, the queer pope or something in order to be considered and even then I'm told to get raped and die. I feel like there's nowhere I belong, despite feeling connected to the queer community because it feels like that's where I'm supposed to belong.

- I had a hard time realising what my sexual orientation was because of being aro AND being sexually attracted to people made understanding I was aro harder. I don't always feel connected to being gay and a part of that community Because I'm aro; I constantly feel unwelcome and "unallowed" to be there, and I constantly feel as if I'm considered one of the bad impure gays because of stereotypes of allo aro people. I feel as if I'm constantly erased by both non aspecs and other aspecs because of being allosexual and aro. the arguments to exclude me never even include me. I'm told "not wanting to fuck" isn't queer, and I'm also told that having sexuality while being queer is homophobic. I'm not thought of but I also am shamed and excluded. it's awful. Also, I'm gay, but my aromanticism has caused me far more problems, and aro problems are never talked about. I feel so invisible.

I’ve also received three different comments which can all be summed up as bi aro people feeling like the stereotypes around bisexual people and allosexual aro people align very closely, therefore feeling as if they are “bad” bi people.

At the same time, multiple people have expressed that they feel alienated from the aro community because they feel aroace voices are far louder than allo aros. Some people have even said that some people refuse to believe them when they say they are aromantic and allosexual because they see aromanticism being always connected to aceness. Examples:

- the reason i sometimes dont click with the ato community is because to me it feels like the biggest part are aroace people and they are the most vocal. and it feels like i lose my voice then. unless im in a non ace group.

- I feel that my attractions are all really deeply connected, which i think may be at least partually due to my aromanticim. Like i think i connect aesthetic, platonic, and sexual attraction in a similar way to the connection an alloromantic allosexual might have between romantic and sexual attraction. This is not 100% of the time, though, and while i usually dont get squishes on people i am not sexually and/or aesthetically attracted to, i can still form platonic relationships with people i am not aesthetically or sexually attracted to just as easily. (im pretty young so i dont have experience with the other two (what would an aesthetic relationship be anyway lmao)). Also, on the subject of people assuming things based on the fact im an allo aro, i do have a lot of people assuming im ace based on the fact im aromantic. Oftentimes they will even forget that i told them i was aro in the first place, but remember the fact that I am supposedly “ace”, which i never said. This fact makes me rather uncomfortable, and also partially leads me to somehow having more of a connection to the term allosexual than any of the many sexual orientations ive tried labelling myself with. I dont know if this is problematic or not, but “Allosexual aromantic” is the way i think of my identity for the most part, not simply aro.

I had originally planned to not put personal comments on this post, but I find I must say something now. This is an, interesting situation, we could say. There are both allo aros who have been stereotyped as too sexual, and allo aros whose allosexuality has been completely erased. While the first situation plays into a lot of other issues, when it comes to the second I would like to ask aroace people: please, please, boost allo aros voices. I know many aroaces have said that they’ve felt erased by the ace community, try to not have the same happen in the aro community. Some aroace people are extremely supportive of allo aros, of course, but I find I can’t disagree when people say overall allo aros are very sidelined in the community.

To move on, a couple arospec people have said they didn’t feel included in the allo aro community on grounds of not feeling that their arospec identity is considered aro enough.

- The times I don’t feel connected to bi/pansexual community (I use both terms) are when romanticism is highlighted (e.g., “love is love,” “hearts not parts” – which is problematic for several reasons anyways). The times I don’t feel connected to aro community don’t have to do with my sexual orientation, but with being quoiromantic. Sometimes people want to draw a hard line between aro and alloro folks, and I just can’t sort myself into either category.

Again, fellow aros, let’s support arospecs a little more.

And other than this, there have been people who have elaborated on how their aromanticism or allosexuality have made it harder to identify the other. Such as:

- An additional answer to the question about sexuality/aromanticism influencing the realization of each other: I'm exclusively attracted to one gender, and when I was first questioning one of the first things I noticed is that my romantic and sexual orientations didn't line up - there was such a clear, distinct difference between my attraction to men and other genders, but there was no such preference when considering the possibility of a romantic relationship, and so on one hand it made it more confusing for sure, but also established early on that my romantic orientation wasn't something typical, which did help out in a way too; this is a pretty unique experience I feel like, applying pretty much only to single gender-attracted aros, but I thought I would share it anyway!

- I struggled a lot between deciding if I could be a lesbian if I didn’t find myself romantically attracted to all girls, but was sexually attracted to most. I assumed it was misogyny and that I would grow out of it. That was not the case but coming to terms with that was hard.

- Because of our aromanticism, i feel like many people don't know who they are sexually attracted to and it leads to confusion for many years. Heck, I still don't really know who I want to have sex with!

- It wasn't until my mid twenties that I even learned aromanticism existed. I spent many years, especially in college, thinking that I was somehow broken and wrong because I couldn't love my partners like others did. I still find it way too easy to slip back into that mentality.

Finally, here’s a couple comments that brought up points no one else did:

- I'm also a relationship anarchist and just recently in that community someone said that "romantic attraction" is nothing but a con, it doesn't exist, and alloromantic and aromantic people are just dealing with the consequences of that fake idea in different ways. I felt invalidated as fuck.

- I don’t know what alterous is. Also I feel it’s important to mention that I personally consider my romantic identity connected to my autism as I view romance as an aspect of socialization. Thank you.

And that, folks, is all. I hope someone has found this interesting.

#aromantic #aro #allosexual aro #allo aro #aro allo #aromantic survey

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nerdgasrnz · 7 years

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This is so stupid and frustrating bullshit bc like... I'm VERY new to navigating concepts of gender and sexuality from a new, non cis/het lens. There's terms and history I need to learn. That I'm STILL learning.

But then there's these super popular posts with all this Ace Discourse word soup that is just hard to decipher. WORSE for people who lack even more energy and patience.

Posts whrre I'm not fucking sure if I'm actually surrounded by people that support me, or just see me and others like me as a "special snowflake" trying to fit in, wanting to be oppresssd. Adding to the confusion about if I have enough "gold stars" on my queer card to qualify me to get "in."

Those posts with tens of thousands of notes talking about how """Exclusionists""" deserve to die. The "logic" for who they mean and why is needle buried in a 7 paragraph haystack.

On that side, you have the Intellectuals™ who flower up their bigotry at the length of an SAT Essay so they can fool impressionable people** into into thinking that what they're saying is worthwhile. But when they talk about "Exclusionists?" You don't know if they actually mean ignorant people excluding all Aros/Aces from what it "really" means to be queer, or if they're saying "all those filthy gays should die along with their allosexual* bretheren"

And then those people get mad when it's explained MULTIPLE TIMES how a word is horrible, because it lumps queer people with cis/straight people? Does that really sound like it makes sense? That is why "Allosexual" is an actual not good word!!! like sheesh just trust us on this one okay? "Non-Ace" works fine as a distinction.

So on the other side, you have those **Impressionable People who are blown away by these big words that don't actually make sense together.

"BUT HEY the post has a lot of notes, so they must be right! Now, let's throw together some similar-sounding words on topics where I actually don't know my stance. Let's contribute to a volatile, negative discussion to feel Valid™!!!"

So then, this leads to not just excessive use of the word "Allosexual" in reference to people that donot want to be categorized the same way as cisgender, heterosexual people: You also get people throwing around "terf" like it's just a quirky, acceptable tumblr insult.

But those people don't know that a "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist" is actually a gigantic warning for other peoples' safety. Transgender safety. Because RadFems like them want to oppress everyone they don't consider "real women" Like transgender people.

(re: the "Kill All Men" mantra, which to them, includes and misgenders Trans/Nonbinary people under the guise of "Womens' Rights" lmao)

With Buzzword Bigot's popularity, and naïve Mob Member #476, you get this Ace Discourse garbage: where you can't really tell which side hates you? Or if both sides hate you? Do THEY know why they hate you? You'll never know, because nobody will SAY WHAT THEY MEAN IN PLAIN LANGUAGE!!!

That's not just Acecourse, that's the minority experience!! When it used to be easier to tell who hated you, by whoever punched and spat on you!

But now everyone tries to duck and weave being (rightfully) accused of being a bigot.

I do not blame ANY queer person for standing up against blatant homophobia and transphobia and kicking people out of their spaces. When some fucker, who HAPPENS to be Aro and/or Ace, has a lame-ass agenda to create a shitstorm for publicity, yeah, you need to gtfo!!! Nobody fucking cares if you "deserve" to be at the VIP venue, or if you "paid your dues" to be there: if you're disruptive and destructive, the bouncers are kicking you out because of the damages you're causing!!!

I do not blame ANY queer person for hating people from MY spectrum of sexuality: because people from MY community are repeating toxic, hateful behavior and ideas that already wreaked havoc on queer people's safety. Because then you get shit like an "Ace-centric," apocalyptic, Young Adult novel pitch where "people die if they're physically intimate" sounds like a good plot; but that was already a thing in real life called the HIV/AIDS crisis in the United States. Which mostly plagued queer people. But yeah talk about it like it's just fiction because "those dirty allosexuals will die from that gross intercourse!"

If you're cis and on the aro/ace spectrum, and you're spouting shit that misgenders people, then yeah, trans people have every right to exclude you.

When you talk about gay bars with disdain, wanting "G-rated" alternatives, as if Queer people and Gay Bars are ALWAYS sexually explicit and never "turn it down"; you probs don't know how much you sound like one of the police officers that would arrest a queer person just for minding their fucking business.

If you don't experience attraction to the same gender in ANY way, and you're on the aro/ace spectrum, but you repeatedly talk about anyone/everyone who has interest or experience with sex like they're filthy, cursed, or diseased? Then yeah!!! Queer people don't fucking want you here!!!

Because you sound like every homophobic speech deliverer that we've EVER heard who goes on about "purity" and "innocence" and "virginity" as if they're the most sacred thing on the planet, as if lacking those things makes us "unworthy" of a happy and full life, or whatever!

Even aro/ace queer people don't want you here, because you're throwing us under the fucking bus too and you fucking know it!!! Don't pretend to feel "betrayed" as if you didn't know that Asexuality and Aromanticism are NOT cookie cutter experiences? There's sex repulsed people who aren't virgins; aros/aces that have sex. People with STD's who are WAY more pure and kind than most of us, who are putting effort in these stupid, divisive concepts on this hellsite.

If any of us wanted to experience the shit that you goddamn homophobes/transphobes were serving, we'd go crawling back to the cis/het people that already made our lives miserable! We'd listen to the family that already doesn't accept us! The public speakers that used their platform to tell us we deserve misery and death for the "debauchery" we live! We'd go back to the peers that always harrassed us!

We don't give a FUCK if you're Aromantic or Asexual spectrum; if you're gonna be hateful and not examine yourself to fix it, Queer people have every fucking reason to want you fucking gone! And it's NOT because of your sexuality or lackthereof, it's because you're just like all the other assholes that have been in our lives!!! So fuck off!!!

#I'm sorry I'm TIRED #I'm ace tag #I'm aro tag #The Discourse™#Acecourse /////

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groundramon · 6 years

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I’ve noticed this troubling trend of tumblr of...forgetting aromantic people exist. I know ace discourse is a Hot Topic (not the store) right now and people will intentionally exclude or include ace people in LGBT discussions for whatever reasons they have for participating in the discourse, but....did you notice how it’s called “ace discourse” and not “ace/aro discourse”? I suppose I should be happy nobody’s making jokes at the expense of aro people like they are at ace people (er, there are still jokes, but...) but it still hurts that we’re so overlooked.

Positivity posts exist for us, but they’re few and far between compared to other groups and we’re often excluded from most discussions. When we are included, we tend to be lumped into how “MOGAI is so problematic” discussions and that’s about it.

Pride flags will include the gay, lesbian, trans, bi, pan, ace, nonbinary, and sometimes even agender/genderqueer/other nb gender identity flags, but they rarely include aromantic as an option. I’m not saying you HAVE to make aromantic pride icons, not by any means; this isn’t referring to “hey, here are some lesbian tsuchako icons!” or even “hey, here are some ace pidge icons!” because both of those are icons meant for specific groups. But when it’s obvious that someone is well-meaning and trying to list all the semi-major LGBT groups, it stings just a bit extra because you KNOW they’re trying to be inclusive but they still didn’t include your group. Not like they’re a bad person for it by any means! But that’s the point; they didn’t do anything intentionally wrong or really wrong at all, but it still hurts. And that’s one of the worst kinds of pain of all.

And I know, “oh ace/aro people arent being killed and raped and denied housing and discriminated against in almost all aspects of your life!!!” first off, only one of those is something that doesn’t happen to us (being killed) so fuck you. (And dont bring up “well its because of heterosexual culture/sexism/ect” because heterosexual culture IS part of our oppression and sexism doesn’t play entirely if at all into those three things.) But secondly, that’s...kind of the point? Notice how I said ace/aro people; ace/aro people face (or...faced - I’ll get to that in a second) similar amounts of oppression that’s reflected in similar ways, often utilizing the same language. And yet asexual people get all this pride and recognition, and we get nothing?

I said we used to face the same amount of oppression because while asexuality has become somewhat known nowadays, aromanticism is still virtually unknown. I can tell you that right now because my autocorrect is calling aromantic and aromanticism a misspelling but saying asexuality (and asexual, however that was a word before it was used for the sexual orientation so I dont count it) is a word. See, there was a time when asexuality and aromanticism were considered the same thing, but people were quickly like “no, they aren’t! they’re separate!” So now we’re at the point where society has learned a little about asexual people and is aware that they can have romantic partners. But in the process, we left behind aromantic people. We said “oh, what about the asexual people who CAN have partners?” before we got people to accept those who can’t - and don’t fit into gay positivity or straight privilege because of it - and now I feel like we’ve largely abandoned those who can’t. I recognize it’s important to give acknowledgement to the fact that ace people can be alloromantic, I really do! But we keep forgetting to acknowledge that asexual people can be aromantic, too. Because to us it seems like second-knowledge, when it really...isn’t to the world at large. So we changed our activism, and now nobody knows about asexual aromantic people.

And don’t even get me started on how ignored allosexual aromantic people are. I’m sorry but I really don’t feel qualified to write about their experience because I really don’t know much about them. I’ve never met an allosexual aromantic person that I know of (or have had an in-depth conversation with them about something like this, anyways) but please keep them in your mind when talking about ace/aro activism as well.

Say what you want about the ace community’s relationship with the LGBT community, but the ace community is even more intertwined with the aromantic community than it is with the LGBT community. There’s no possible way to separate the aromantic from the ace community. And yet currently, I’m...really feeling like the alloromantic asexual community has let the aromantic community down significantly. You’re getting media attention now, but you’ve forgotten that many of the people who pioneered this and normalized it were aromantic asexuals - or even aromantic allosexuals - and now you’re more focused on validating your own existence than validating ours. I’m not saying you can’t reblog a good ace discourse post because it doesn’t mention aromantics or can’t enjoy your ace pride icons or anything of that matter. But when you’re speaking in your own words, or making your own icons, please try to think of us and how these issues affect us every once in a while. Basically every aspect of ace discourse applies to aromantic people as well but neither side seems to acknowledge this - and when they do, it’s almost always the ace exclusionist side, which isn’t a good thing. We have our positivity, and please keep that coming! But don’t be afraid to exclude us from tough conversations either. We’re here and we want to be included. So please include us.

- Sincerely, a very tired asexual aromantic nonbinary person

PS if you want to make aromantic pride icons but don’t know which glad to use, the most commonly accepted flag is the green/yellow/white/gray flag. But we’re not going to be picky on which flag you use; we’re just happy you thought of us! ;v; (might wanna be careful about using the green/white/gray flag that doesn’t use the yellow stripe though, as that’s very similar to the agender flag and I get mixed up a lot myself |D)

Allosexuals and alloromantic aces reblogging this would be greatly appreciated, comments/opinions and questions are fine but please be respectful and understand where I’m coming from first

#stormy speaks

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spinnerprincess · 7 years

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happy ace awareness week

i think you’re all probably aware that i’m ace by now, i mention it from time to time, but in case you’re not... heyyyyyy

you can find a lot of ace resources around, teaching you about asexuality, what it means, etc. i’ve been personally appreciating the hell out of lyd’s comics on the subject, the most recent of which is here.

this post isn’t for that. this post is for being aware of where i’m at regarding being ace. i would appreciate it if you read it.

hashtag lgbt/ace discourse ahead.

it’s been a weird year for me. a lot of good things have happened, and so have a lot of bad things. dealing with my asexuality has fallen into both categories.

when i first encountered the term asexuality and adopted it for myself it was a very different time. i had made a friend who was ace. without going into detail, they were a little older than me, and were dealing with the aftereffects of a bad relationship where they felt harrassed and later assaulted by a partner. so i came into it with the full awareness that being ace could be rough and cause discrimination, etc.

but honestly, in some ways, it was an easier time. back in 2011 asexuality felt less visible, but where it was visible, it was accepted pretty freely. some conversations around terms like “allosexual” began cropping up around them. i think i navigated them fairly well, and i learned a lot, and with everything i learned i grew surer that being ace was both a term that made me feel validated and comfortable, and the word that best defined my gender/sexuality experience.

the worst thing i had to deal with was people who hated “aces prefer cake” jokes and the occasional “stop calling yourselves aces you’re not playing cards” which, meh, it’s just a cute shortening. i love it. didn’t stop then, won’t stop now. you couldn’t pay me to go back to a time when i thought sherlock was worth any attention (i at least didn’t fuckin ascribe to a lot of the shit like “oh he’s ace/aro and it excuses his bullshit” haha fuck off.). but. boy. sometimes i miss it.

this past year or two, it’s been shitty. first we had the tail end of the “queer” discourse. i understood some viewpoints coming out of that, but ultimately settled on feeling like it the people arguing to remove it from the lexicon were wrong. i think there’s some valid points to be made, but mostly found the whole argument tiresome. Let people call themselves what they want, and don’t use it for people you don’t know like it, or for the whole community. Done.

and if I’m a little more hesitant to use it for myself, if i once described myself as queer freely and happily, and now do so nervously, backspacing it out of the text once or twice, that’s... something i hope to overcome.

but boy oh boy did that discourse just dovetail right into my personal hell. the kind of people who don’t want to see the community expanded, who want to stay on top and exclude people who aren’t being their kind of gay, immediately dug their claws into that argument about “queer” and didn’t stop.

i’ve endured months and months of ace discourse now and it’s... it’s been exhausting. i’m not even directly involved in it, but it’s still there. it’s constant. it’s insidious.

what started as a counter argument of “queer is a great as a blanket word for people with complex identities, such as ace people” dove directly into “well, are ace people lgbt?” and didn’t stop. suddenly it was the topic of the season. early definitions said “yes” or “if they think they are.” more arguments. “well, heteroromantic aces aren’t lgbt,” became popular. i can see why. that kind of invisible distinction could play well into pretending you’re straight, after all - right? so went the discourse. ugh.

as that argument caught on, people with anti-ace agendas pushed it further. “so being ace alone doesn’t make you lgbt.” “kids can’t identify as ace, that’s sexualization.” “cishet aces just want to steal our resources.”

i don’t want to go into all of these but. boy. some of them were presented logically, kindly. others devolved quickly into “aces are the worst and can die,” “ace people don’t belong full stop,” and even “lol look at me i’m a tumblrina i’m 13 years old asexual fictkin special snowflake” as the punchline of jokes that spread outside of this site.

some ace people are assholes and of course stirred the pot more by being overtly bitter/turning things into oppression olympics type bickering over how aces have the worst, or whatever. some blogs people cited for examples of “terrible ace people co-opting lesbian stuff” or whatever else were literally from sockpuppet blogs making fun of ace people.

for a time, i even bought into some of it. i thought some of the early arguments, that heteroromantic aces shouldn’t be considered lgbt, might have valid points. but you know what? that’s bullshit. if you believe you belong, you should be welcomed with open arms. hetero aces experience some of the same shit i do. they probably also experience other shit. just because i don’t know what it is, or it’s different from mine, doesn’t mean it isn’t an alienating, and perhaps even queer, experience. their sexuality, as nuanced as it is, still sets them apart and they deserve support. we all do.

it sucks to think that this shitty shitty discourse had me believing in a position that invalidated my own experience of aceness being the source of much of my queer experiences, for a while.

all this to say nothing of the invisible hate seeping towards aromantic people as well, lolololol. it’s not a big part of me the way being ace is but i’m probably somewhere on the aro spectrum and. great. thanks. i’m still so tired of split attraction model arguments. if it works for you, use it. if it works for other people, let them use it. is it so hard to believe that some people might experience things differently to you? or differently to how you would imagine? god.

my favorite part is when allo people started saying “allo is a slur!!!” when, get this: allosexual was pushed for and partially created by allo people who (rightly) didn’t want to be called “sexual,” like poc, and rape survivors. ace people adopted it into their language for their benefit, not for ours, lololololol

so. that’s the year i’ve been dealing with. i’ve had to unfollow a number of people i thought were otherwise cool over this. i haven’t gone a single month without finding someone i think is amazing, reading through their blog, and discovering with a sense of nausea that they would hate me. genuinely hate me. there’s no love there. someone who says “u shouldn’t follow me if you think ace people are lgbt lol” isn’t interested in hearing and believing my stories, my experiences, my life which is hard and queer and as deserving of support as anyone’s. they aren’t interested in treating me like a person. that’s... i mean, i think that counts as hate. yeah.

i still hesitate on the word aphobia, or, similarly, biphobia. i don’t know if it’s the right way to describe it, when the hatred you refer to comes from within a similar group of people with oppressed sexualities. i wouldn’t hesitate to say post from an allosexual person in favor of in corrective rape w/r/t ace people are aphobic. i wouldn’t hesitate to say a straight person who thinks bi people are disgusting is a biphobe.

but is that reality talking, or is it just me being unable to acknowledge that oppression is oppression, fear and hate are fear and hate, and discrimination towards aces, which i’ve spent the last two years being told isn’t real, despite experiencing it on a regular basis both in and out of community?

what’s the line between discrimination and oppression? if people’s everyday biases make it harder for ace people to live their lives, is there a point in determining that line?

i fuckin dunno. i’m so tired. i’ve spent a long year feeling like i’ve shrunk myself. i feel more comfortable lately talking about fictional ladies and my attraction to them, which isn’t sexual, and isn’t exactly romantic, but it’s... it’s something that exist. just recently i became comfortable feeling like i can use the term “wlw” for myself, which i fought myself for a long time on. being ace, being quietly non-binary were both things that felt like obstacles.

and the wlw community is just full of toxicity still. terfs have grown and drawn others to their ideologies, some of them using anti-ace tactics to do so, others using tried and true biphobic messaging and of course, who could forget the constant hammering of “trans women aren’t women” bullshit they like to pull.

so that’s one triumph of the year. i’m nb, i’m wlw, i’m ace. i can say those three things and feel pretty comfortable in it.

i just wish it didn’t also come at costs. i find it harder to express my ace life. i find it harder to feel positively about it. i don’t have the energy to deeply deal with ace headcanons lately. it feels like the online world is hyperaware of us now, if anything. everybody has an opinion. moreover, people feel entitled to an opinion, in a way they weren’t before. people feel like it can be their opinion that my ace experiences aren’t lgbt, or that my sexuality doesn’t exist or even harms theirs, or... i don’t know. what will be the next big reason asexuality is terrible/invalid/not lgbt?

if you bothered to read or hell just skimmed this long post... thank you.

thank you.

i know i’ve been quiet about a lot of this. not all the time, but a lot of the time. i feel bad about that, a little? i want people to know what this looks like. knowing asexuality exists is so, so good. but knowing that ace people are facing right now, the movement of hatred that has swept across pockets of lgbt people in recent years, and having the awareness to try and combat it...

it would mean a lot to me, if it felt like more of that could exist.

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