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ficsinhistory · 5 years

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,As the second season is over, I can finally do it! The second part of Karmi's character analysis per episode!

Despite all the flaws she has, I love how complex she is! She is bold, sarcastic and not made to sympathize at first, this with her not being automatically a villain! Showing to the target audience that people have nuances, that not always someone well acts in black and white, with some managing to overcome problems and not let interfere, but that others get quite marked with these experiences to the point of influencing how it handles some things and someone good can always improve, because not all their attitudes are the best. Which is not bad if you have a good character development, exactly what I'm going to analyze.

And then I want to score one thing: It's okay that you do not like Karmi. Since she needs more development to become a character and that's okay! But some people reduce it to imprecise definitions, deleting important traits of it, distorting it completely as the character is. So, I'm going to do my analysis with that in mind and try to talk about it too, okay?

Internabout

Ah yes! This is where we started the first season. A very cool episode with Trina, NBB, where Hiro arranges a stage and several hilarious and somewhat tense things happens. And of course, Karmi appears in a very interesting way.

Her first appearance was during the gang tour. She is in the lab when she is introduced and where she boasts of the internship, something she has earned because of her lifelong study. Even though she has said it presumptuously, no one can deny that it is a great achievement.

I know, I know, Liv is bad and all, but it does not obliterate the fact that Karmi had her attention because of the talent of prodigy that she has and knowing Amara, even wanting to use it, would not have something common to have in her plan, but, yes, something really impressive. At this point, it is Hiro who is rivaling Karmi, so much so that the gang itself asks why he is still jealous, and does what he can to have something to rub as a victory to Karmi. He arranges an internship with Krei and the episode unfolds.

Her next appearance is at lunch, where she is taking care of her own affairs.

Hiro comes and tries to provoke her, which she does not leave cheap and refuses giving Hiro a little nervous attack. Both at the beginning and in this scene, it was proof that Hiro also plays this rivalry and that, once and for all, Karmi may be a jerk, but she is not a bully!

Does she have bad attitudes? Yes. Does she need to improve and apologize and change her behavior? For sure! Is she a bully? As someone who has suffered for years this, I can say, no.

According to the definition, bullying has as main pillar the misuse of power in the relationship, generally leading to a total isolation of the target. Karmi has no power imbalance with Hiro, except to be taller, she is practically equal to him. She is a student like him, what she talks about does not affect his reputation, at the most it irritates him, that when he does not rebut, and the stage that she gains in this episode does not harm him in anything but to hurt his ego, thing which already happens since "Big Problem". This stage was won honestly, without Karmi having sabotaged Hiro at all.

Since the beginning of the episode, she's been taking care of her own affairs and the only time she's talked to Hiro was on the Scoraxy tour. After that, she basically reacted to Hiro the whole episode.

They are rivals and Hiro is not afraid of it, or Karmi. Both are provoked and Hiro has some of the blame on the disagreements, something very different from what constitutes bullying, mainly where the victim usually is afraid, at least, to react.

The next time she appears, her interaction with Hiro was not even required

since they met by accident. That's when Karmi discovers that what he said was "an important task" was just being Krei's servant. In contrast to what Karmi did in Smal Hiro One, Hiro did not tell the truth about what he was doing, trying to trick her when Karmi burst into laughter. (Let's be honest, it was funny and you would laugh too.) She then left and did not show up any more.

In that episode, it was shown how the rivalry comes from both sides and how Karmi simply reacted to Hiro's taunts as he did hers, which is totally different from bullying. It also showed that Hiro reacts well with the injured ego and has flaws, one of the points they have in common.

Pray Date

Ah yes! One of my favorite eps! Here we had many good scenes from around the world and a wonderful character development in general!

The first time Karmi appears is when Hiro and Fred go after them to try to get to Sycorax's lab to check Knox. Karmi at first does not want to get involved, but Hiro practically manipulates her, being honest here, but he had the best of intentions and they were desperate measures so it's forgivable.

Here she also warns about security, which was hilarious! And Fred ends up spoiling various cultures of microorganisms. As a scientist, I can say that this takes time and she was rightly angry. Despite everything above, she actually went to check what Hiro "asked" and eventually discovered that she did not have access to the file. Which led her to question Liv about this, with a very curious body language that I'll look into later.

He loved the dispensation and Karmi ends up meeting Fred, Hiro and Baymax. Hiro questions her about Knox, which leads him to hack into the company's computer and Karmi can identify that something is wrong with his genetic code.

She still does not want to go, understandably, but when Hiro states that someone has to help, she is convinced. They go up to sub-level 9 and fiddling with the files discovers a cure, however they end up being caught and after Liv takes Fred out, they start being chased by Knox, which leads them to a difficult situation.

Hiro wants to disable the security protocol, but Karmi says that would not be good, because it would put many people in danger and suggest waiting until she finds a cure. They argue and Karmi continues underground while Hiro and Baymax leave.

Her next appearance is questioned on Liv's decision, asking her to let him try to find a solution without killing him. However, no one buys the idea.

Then she appears already with a cure and watching worried about a Knox going to the lab, meeting with "Captain Cute" and stating that they would help. However, she questions about Hiro, asking about his status. Gogo claims that he is well and she appears for the last time, having a civilized conversation with Hiro, stating that the "Sycorax" had healed based on her research. This episode was incredible for Karmi's development and brought relevant information about her personality.

The first thing is that it breaks one of the main concepts that many had that Karmi would be a villain. However, it is shown that she has one of the best moral sense of the series.

She may have started helping Hiro because of the ego, but she ended up helping because, as seen in part one of this post, she is a good person. And the evidence of this ran through every episode. The first, and perhaps not so obvious, is when Fred comes in with a club in her lab. Karmi can be a bit harsh when she acts, but she did it to protect Fred.

As a virologist, her work is not only dangerous but extremely deadly, so much so that there are danger signs throughout the lab. One of the basic rules of a lab even is that you can not eat, and taking into account a biology laboratory, this gets even more severe. Fred could become infected with a serious and deadly disease, since Karmi works with extremely lethal pathogens. So it was not just anger, she was trying to protect him.

The second is after Hiro hacks the file. Karmi clearly did not want to break the rules, which could not only put her stage at risk as it was illegal because it was an invasion. However, when she heard that Knox needed help, she went without question, only worrying about how they would arrive at sub-level 9.

Showing once again how much she wants to help people, as we have seen her speak since the first we saw her, it is not about breaking rules, but if helping someone demands it, so be it. Another situation is when they are fleeing from Knox. One thing very well punctuated by Ari @princess-kidatheart17 is that she could have fled by herself, but she pushed Hiro to go along.

She worried about his safety and acted on that feeling.Not to mention she bothered to help Baymax as well.

Already the main act of altruism of every episode, at least in my view, was when they were considering what to do. By this time, Hiro had no hope of Knox's healing and was concentrating on leaving the scene, probably resorting to recapture. However, Karmi still had faith that Knox could be normal again which motivated her to take high risks, not only that, she was willing to put her own life on the check and stay longer with a monster that was hunting to kill if it meant not only that he would have a chance to turn human again as she was thinking of people who could get hurt if Hiro turned off security. This was said quite explicitly by her!

Karmi at no time here thought of itself, putting the life of the people of the city and the own Orso Knox above hers. In addition to that when Hiro left her leaving alone, she was faithful to what she believed and began working on a cure.

When she’s back, she’s questioning Liv herself, stating that she could help.

But the conditions were against her and as Hiro had been captured, it would be too much to ask to entrust a life to her with such urgency. I think Karmi herself would not think that was a good idea, for all intents and purposes, she remained true to herself and continued her healing.

Speaking of Liv and Karmi, we have seen how Amara manipulates her in a way very similar to Gothel and Rapunzel. Karmi is treated like a child by the same one and it constantly has its opinions rejected and painted as inferior or infeasible, which is aggravated by the poor social aptitude that it has. When she goes to speak, Karmi is insecure and nervous, which leaves her vulnerable and Liv knows it. This is dangerous.

She does not want to disappoint her and Liv takes advantage of it. Already afraid and nervous when talking to Liv, the woman leaves her hands tied for being beyond her superior in the company, since she is the CEO, also takes advantage of the vision that our biotech has of her.

Now, the most moving situation of the episode is when she shows concern for Hiro. Something I found interesting is when she asks if he's hurt. Karmi could wait until the next day to see him at SFIT, but she was genuinely worried about asking Big Hero 6 himself. Not only that, when she'll ask if he was hurt she took a break.

The possibility of Hiro getting hurt makes her so distressed that it becomes bitter to think about it, showing that they do not hate each other. Karmi cares. Then the episode ends with her and Hiro talking where we see that a friendship is possible in the future. Honorable mention for the fact that Karmi has canonically Hiro's phone number.

Nega- Globby

Here she interacted more with Honey Lemon, which made me thrive both because she was someone different from Hiro, and because she showed that she could interact with other people after all. This episode showed what I said before about barriers and how Hiro and Karmi are to blame in the rivalry, showing how he talked about how Karmi could not be friends with anyone. Being someone who has social difficulties, this must have been such a blow to Karmi, who again only answered the height. It also showed the vision she has about Hiro and that she finds him very convinced of himself, as well as hinting that the animosity she feels has a much deeper motive.

Her past and what has gone by is still a complete mystery, but it must be big enough to keep it a secret for so long. In any case, here it shows that she has friction with Hiro, but still can be very helpful with others.

She went to find Honey at Grandville's request, however she continued to help on her own, and while having her personality conflicts with Honey, they worked well. Even not being much of a "person of hugs."

Many people may have been surprised that Hiro and Karmi have returned to normal fights, including myself in this. But after much thought, I came to the conclusion that Pray Date was not an episode for these two to finally understand, but rather an episode that pre-established information for this. That's why they're still arguing. In Pray Date important things have been stated, such as Karmi's moral standards, which are very high even, the fact that she cares for Hiro, the two do not hate each other and that if they want, they are capable of peaceful coexistence. So we just have to be patient.

Something Fluffy

This episode brings me a lot of information and theories, besides being the last appearance of Karmi until now. In addition to important statements.

Karmi suddenly appears the first time questioning Hiro about why he publicly accused Liv of creating the monsters. What she did was very unpleasant and unexpected, honestly. But, I assume she acted like this because it hits her on a personal level, not so much by Liv. If you watch this part, even questioning Amara, Karmi felt more offended because she makes "part" of Scoraxy and, as she believes they do good, accuse the company and how to accuse her of something absurd and she would never do , how to create monsters.

K: Why were you attacking Liv with your baseless accusations?

H: Baseless? Sycorax is super-secret genetic modification research!

K: We are the future.

H: No, you are a monster factory.

You may notice that Liv's name is only quoted at the beginning and then the discussion is more conflict-based than Hiro and Kami's views on the company and especially themselves in general.

In the middle of the fight, Hiro uses the direct focus for Karmi and calls it "monster factory". Not Liv, not Sycorax, but Karmi personally, showing that rivalry also affects him, including how he talks to her. Karmi is part of Sycorax and she sees it as a good thing due to not being aware of Liv's actions, so it's understandable that she finds Hiro's personal accusations, because it's not just Liv or Sycorax, it also hits her.

After that, after all, she's a reasonable person. Hiro has had fits of jealousy before and could be the same occasion, so what does she do? You say Liv is innocent without stopping?

No. She asks if he has any proof. In the face of so many accusations, it is natural that she expects something to support his theory. She was willing to listen, and I believe that if he had any, even against her likes, Karmi would have listened as she did on Pray Date. However, Hiro did not and this led to an abrupt end.

The next apparition is when Hiro is freaking out and they are gone again. The kid is not in the best shape, unfortunately, and Karmi does not believe her. I can, again, understand, since he is visibly paranoid and, honestly, I would not put faith in anyone in the state where Hiro was. Not to mention that the Mayois were not yet aggressive, but as cute creatures, which did not help much for Karmi's belief. Not to mention that it's not just Karmi, nobody believes in Hiro.

Well, the Mayois start to become a problem and that forces Hiro to get help from Karmi, which brings another interesting point. She does not believe him and does not seem to have any mistrust of Liv, yet she was willing to help search for some answers, even if it was for the boy who was accusing the company she was interning.

With her help, we discovered that the creatures were made of fungi, and again, even if it was none of their concern or concern, Karmi is open to making a reversal serum to help.

It reveals other things about her personality. Karmi may have an admiration that she may become blinded by Liv, but she has no blind loyalty for Liv. We have to remember that Karmi is oblivious to the harmful actions of Amara and all the respect she feels is because of the good deeds that the CEO seems to have what makes her see it as inspiration, but Karmi is open to evidence and disobey Amara to do what's right, as seen in Pray Date. Not only that, Karmi has an altruistic soul and would not follow any of Liv's disastrous steps. As we have seen, the reason she disagrees with Hiro is not because she thinks Liv was unlikely to have done it, but rather because she has done so many good deeds and has shown it so often that it is ridiculous to accuse her. She has a basis for disagreeing with Hiro, even though she is wrong, it is not based on blind faith, but on tests that Amara cleverly left very convincing, deceiving not only Karmi but also every city.

Not only that, even though she does not believe in Hiro, she is willing to listen to him and help him, even if he does not get along very well. Karmi could have refused to help on all previous occasions, she had to lose including life at various points, but when she saw that she could help, she embarked on her head, she was never stingy at that point. Because, once again since some people do not realize it yet, she is a good person. But like anybody, she has flaws.

In the end, she boldly helps to fight the Mayois and does not appear anymore.

Overall, this season is proving to be a great season overall, increasing the stakes and giving development to the characters including Karmi. Now wait for the next few chapters. Anyway, I'm a sucker for analysis and thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, until the next

#big hero 6 #bh6 #big hero 6 the series #bh6 the series #big hero six #hiro hamada #baymax #karmi #bh6 karmi #Honey lemon #liv amara #analysis #disney

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captainstrekkinlog · 4 years

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Star Trek: Picard - 1x01 “Remembrance” In-Depth Analysis

Let me start this off by saying, I think this is the strongest series premiere of any of the live-action Star Trek shows to date.

There is a confidence in this episode that none of the other shows had. It’s no secret that every single Trek show has sometimes struggled in finding its footing in the beginning, it’s not easy to make these shows after all. But it seems that from the onset Star Trek: Picard was a show that knew what it wanted to be and what it needed to be. What struck me the most watching this episode is how very deliberate each action is taken. This story was crafted with meaning and intention, they knew what they wanted to convey and they’re going to take their time walking down the path they set.

If the rest of this season are at the level of this premiere, then this might just become one of the best first seasons of any Trek show.

Now with that out of the way, let’s get to breaking down the episode in all its delicious details. This will be a long one as I break down scene by scene.

SPOILERS AHEAD

So we begin with a dream sequence as Blue Skies (sung by Bing Crosby, grandfather of Tasha Yar’s actress Denise Crosby) plays. A wonderful shot of the Enterprise D with Picard and Data playing poker. Picard looks to be in civilian attire, while Data is seemingly in his Nemesis era uniform. The way this scene is set up immediately feels dream-like, especially with the song, which we heard Data last singing it at Riker and Troi’s wedding.

There is a feeling of melancholy in the scene, almost as if Picard’s own consciousness knows this is not real but he wants to keep pretending that it is. As he even says, he doesn’t want the game to end. He much rather wanting to cling onto the past than be awake in a present-day that he isn’t enjoying. As he even says later, it’s the waking up that he’s beginning to resent, and as we find out later on in the story, this dream world is probably a happier place for him than what life is like for him in the years since Data died.

Here in Picard’s dream, he gets to keep holding onto the past - more time with Data, more time playing the poker game that he never got to enjoy until the end, more time for all the things he was in many ways, robbed of doing.

One funny note, Picard offers Data milk, but we did see in one of the TNG episodes where Data comments that he hates milk.

Data is also holding 5 Queen of Hearts, which Picard frowns at. I’m not sure exactly yet what this may represent, it is possible that this could be a foreshadowing to something else down the line. As I said before, the writers and director were very deliberate with every single detail, so I would imagine this Queen of Hearts thing to have a meaning, we just may not know it yet.

This scene ends with the Mars attack that we saw in the Children of Mars Short Trek and leads to Picard awaking rather violently from his dream. Now if this is how all his dreams end, I can definitely see why he wouldn’t want to wake up because that’s rather horrifying.

Now one thing I have to mention, simply because it’s being made such a big fuss over, the whole thing with how Ten Forward isn’t in the right location. First of all, it’s a dream. Dreams never make sense. I dreamed once that my house had wings and was full of plants and my bathroom was outside. Dreams are weird because they are suppose to be. Secondly, this sort of fuss over technicalities, and rather pointless ones at that, are what I would like to call “missing the forest for the trees”, because what is mattering in this scene isn’t the location of Ten Forward, but rather the scene of Picard and Data and what this means for Picard’s state of mind. THAT is the story, THAT is the substance. The location of a place in a dream sequence really is not what should be the take away of the scene, nor should it somehow ruin a scene. Honestly, people need to realize that the STORY is what is important, any small technical things are not the point. We don’t watch Star Trek because we want to point out all the inconsistent and illogical and wrong continuity details. We watch Star Trek because of the stories and the characters. If I was to let every single of those technical details bother me so much that it ruined the story, I would never be able to watch any Star Trek because quite frankly, there’s a whole lot of it in Star Trek, and acting like that one detail is what ruins a perfectly written and acted scene that sets up Picard’s state of mind for his character development is quite frankly very disingenuous.

Now, moving onto the rest of our story. We have Picard waking up to Number One running to him. I imagine Number One is in many ways a service dog, especially given how he was immediately there noticing Picard’s disturbance. The most interesting part of this scene with Picard waking up and looking out into the vineyard where people are working is that he keeps saying to Number One “it’s alright”, but really, he’s not saying it to the dog, I think he’s trying to convince himself that everything is alright, even though he knows it isn’t, and we know he certainly doesn’t feel it.

Then we move locations to Greater Boston, where in the night time skyline, we notice some glowing light ads with the Federation News Network symbol, some Ferengi Alliance and ad products, a London Kings banner, and it looks like Kasidy Yates is still somewhere in the galaxy with a booming interstellar freights business. Good for her!

We finally meet Dahj with her boyfriend who is a Xahean, a nice link to our beloved Queen Po, whom we met in Discovery. I am now curious who is the ruler on Xahea at this time, after all, we don’t really know how Xaheans age. But it looks like Xahea is a part of the Federation, which also makes me curious if Po did eventually reveal her innovation for recrystalizing dilithium crystals. Oh and the eagle eyed folks at Trekcore noted from Dahj’s call logs later that her boyfriend’s name looks to be “Caler”.

So they’re having a great time, Dahj reveals she got into the Daystrom Institute and that she’s a fellow in Artificial Intelligence and Quantum Consciousness, which is an interesting field for her to go into given how she reacts later on to Picard calling them “soulless murder machines”, which seems to reveal her bias. Which also makes me wonder why she wanted to study something that would only be theoretical and she already had judgement against.

Oh and we also see in Dahj’s apartment is the flower, Orchidaceae Dahj Oncidium, that her father made.

This nice moment with the couple gets ruined, as usual, by Romulans. Always out there spoiling people’s fun. They immediately kill Dahj’s boyfriend and capture her. They put some devices on her head, likely to scan her and commenting on the fact that she’s not been activated yet. Somewhat hilariously, one of them gets admonished for speaking in their native alien language and to speak English. I guess it’s still called English? Or is it Federation Standard? Or is it both?

They ask her “where’s the rest of you” and where she’s from. She says Seattle. I guess if you’re from Seattle these days, you should check if you’re either an Android or a Klingon spy.

And just as she put a bag over her head and try to knock her out, she finally “activates” and kills them all. This was a very well choreographed fight scene where we got to see a good amount of the action. Now I’ve heard some people out there complaining about shaky cam, but that’s not what we have here. The camera didn’t shake, and it only does a minor tilt in one scene. Otherwise, this is one of the calmest camera movements in a fight scene. In fact, the directing for this whole episode is very steady and calm. Honestly, it’s a bad faith take to say this show is just all action crazy shaky cam, because it’s not true. In both of the fight scenes we get, there is considerable restraint on the camera work to make sure that we as the audience can still see what is going on and know what’s happening in the scenes at all times. The rest of the show is all steady cam work. I know that people often like to label “New Trek” to be all action and weird camera angles and “not real Star Trek”, but Picard’s camera work is much more in tune with TNG’s steady cam work than it is to anything else. Other than the two big fight scenes with Dahj, every scene is very steady.

So as Dahj is leaning over her boyfriend and mourning him (note that he is bleeding the same orange color that Po did in the Runaway Short Trek), and then she gets a vision of Picard. The interesting thing about this vision is that it looks to be the same shot from one of the very early teasers. I am curious why she keeps seeing this specific scene and if there is any meaning to it.

Now there is one issue I’ve seen pointed out that the first character to be killed on Picard is a character played by a black man. And this is a very valid thing to be concerned about considering the treatment of characters of color, particularly TV’s issues with black men that both Agents of SHIELD and The Walking Dead had gotten flack for before (the rotating door of black characters), and certainly horror movie tropes have been criticized extensively. So I definitely understand if someone saw this and was worried about this sort of thing becoming an issue. I can’t speak for how black people may feel about this, as I am not black and I do not know all the nuances of this problem, but I wanted to bring to attention what director Hanelle Culpepper commented on in a twitter conversation with someone who had brought up this very concern.

I think this is the thing that could sometimes feel like a double-edged sword. In our current entertainment and media, we are still not there in terms of fair and equal representation, and thus when female characters, characters of color, or LGBTQ+, and other minority group characters die or are treated badly in a story, we pick up on it. But I think with the Star Trek shows, both Discovery and Picard, they are trying to show vast array of characters and treating characters from various minority groups in a normalized way. They can be heroes, they can be villains, they can live and they can die. This kind of normalization in treatment of characters is what we hope for, but I just think the rest of TV have not caught up yet, so when characters of color in this case, do die, we notice.

But hopefully, as Hanelle Culpepper states, we will see more characters of color show up. And as we do know, we will be having more characters of color in lead roles joining us soon.

Now, onto this opening credit sequence. There is a lot of unravel here and I could probably talk for hours about what this opening makes me feel. Let’s first talk about the music. Jeff Russo deserves an award. Seriously. He does. If you guys have not seen the Ready Room aftershow where Jeff Russo talks about the choices made for this theme, you really need to. Because you see the care and attention to detail that he brings into even just choosing what instruments to add to the music and what chords used to call back to the past. The flute at the beginning alluding to Picard’s time in The Inner Light, representing his past. And then the cello and the occasional chords of the TNG theme, just slowed down and slightly in a different tone, all building up to what feels like a triumphant rebirth. The flute sneaks back in showing the past and present coming together for Picard. The use of the cello and strings is just perfect. It really gives a melodic and somber feel to it. And as a violin player myself, any time I hear the strings, it’s like coming home. I’ll be very excited to get back on my violin at some point and play this.

The imagery of the opening credit sequence also tells a story. We see a piece of the sky breaks off like glass, it floats down to the vines in the vineyard, then to the quantum archive, which forms into a borg cube, and the broken piece falls through the cube and forms into fractals, and the pieces float around seemingly becoming like a neuro-pathways which becomes like the iris of an eye, and then it becomes a borg eye maybe, and then the planet Romulus, and finally the cracks form back into Picard’s face. It’s all very beautiful imagery and clearly very deliberate as no doubt all these elements will somehow come into the story that we are seeing.

And also interesting to note that only Patrick Stewart, Allison Pill, Isa Briones, Harry Treadaway from the main cast are credited, with Brent Spiner as “special guest star”, which means that I guess actors will only appear in the credits if they actually appear in the episode, much like how Discovery season 2 did the same with Shazad Latif and Wilson Cruz, and how Game of Thrones used to do this with their cast members too. So this should make it easy for us to notice which characters will appear in an episode or not.

Now back to the Chateau in France, Picard is walking through the vineyard with Number One and joking with him in French. I’m pretty sure this scene existed to poke fun at the people always saying why is Picard so British if he’s French. So LOL, now he speaks French finally!

We get to meet Laris and Zhaban, two Romulans who seem to live with Picard and basically be his attendants. Some people may not know, but Laris and Zhaban both appear in the Picard Countdown Comics, the three issue comic series shows us their relationship to Picard. Long story short, they are former Tal Shiar agents who broke the rules falling in love and wanted to leave because they wanted to help people instead. They feel indebted to Picard for helping them and sees him as their rescuer/savior. I also thought it was funny that Laris jokes about Number One being “our little assassin”, given what she and Zhaban used to do for a living with the Tal Shiar.

It is also interesting to note that Laris doesn’t have ridges on her forehead but we do see a slight bit of ridges on Zhaban, making this the first time we see both types of Romulans on screen together. Usually, it’s either one or the other. But it’s nice to see finally some variety even within one species.

Zhaban comments that Laris heard Picard talking in his sleep, Laris notes that he’s not sleeping and wonders if it’s bad dreams, which leads Picard to comment that his dreams are lovely but it’s the waking up that he’s beginning to resent, connecting back to the moment at the beginning of the episode with Data where he says he doesn’t want the game to end. His dreams are happier than his present.

So it seems that Picard has to get ready for an interview, and as he enters, Zhaban says that Number One still won’t take breakfast from him with Picard joking “old dogs”, to which Zhaban replies “which one?”

The relationship between Laris, Zhaban, and Picard is very well established even in these early scenes. There is an unspoken bond, camaraderie, and care. Even if Picard says sometimes Zhaban treats him as if he was “a benign old codger”. They act like a family, a family that’s found each other since Picard no longer has his old Enterprise crew family anymore. Also Picard is drinking decaf Earl Grey tea.

Now as all three of them are talking though, the news report plays on in the background. I couldn’t make out all the words because of the dialogue on top of it, but it looks like something about disturbances continue across the Alpha and Beta Quadrant due to the commemoration of the destruction of Romulus, so there seems to be some unrest still even to this day about what’s happened. And there is also something about a new Romulan capital, and maybe some three state council or something like it that declared it an interplanetary day of mourning for all citizens. I thought this interesting because we do not really know yet what the state of the rest of the galaxy is feeling about all of this, or how Romulan politics may have changed since then, so this news report is giving a tiny glimpse of the status of the galaxy. It’s good background world building, which is always a good thing, and sometimes Star Trek tends to falter at doing things like this beyond just details about Starfleet and its ships. It’s nice to get a look at the civilian part of life, which is the majority of the galaxy after all.

As the first of the visiting news crew arrives, Laris reminds Picard to not forget to wash his hands, and that ten years and she still has to remind him. She also jokingly calls him “your highness”, which I think it’s a funny nod to both the Romulan culture and also her being aware of herself being a “butler/housekeeper” for Picard as if this was a royalty sort of thing. The ten years mention though seems to point to Laris and Zhaban having stayed with Picard from at least 2389 to current day 2399.

Among the news crew doing set ups is a Tellarite, the first we see on screen in the 24th century outside of just archival footage. There is also a Trill among them as well. It also looks like there is some screen projection thing that does make up touch-ups? Oh man I would love to use one of those instead of having to put on real make-up. I really hate make-up, well, I should clarify that my skin hates make-up, SO MUCH. Someone please invent these screen projection make up things! I need it!

Picard is all dressed up and insisting that he’s not nervous, and asks Zhaban if he went over the terms with the news people and Zhaban says “three times, sir” that they wouldn’t inquire about his separation from Starfleet. Laris says that she thinks sometime he’s forgotten who he is and what he did but they haven’t, and Zhaban reminds him to “be the captain they remember.” These two clearly care about Picard a lot, genuinely. And it’s a really lovely moment as they send him off to this interview.

It’s kinda of fun to see the intro to his interview is showing off a bunch of TNG promo photos and episode screencaps. I always find this funny because I’m like, wait, there were no cameras there in those moments, how did they get those pictures!

So we learn in this scene that Picard has never agreed to an interview before until now, and that he’s been writing books on various historical analysis, and that he’s very passionate about working on raising awareness of the lingering impacts of the supernova. It’s clear from the beginning of this scene that the interviewer is looking for something else, that all this stuff they agreed to talk about is not what she actually wants to hear, she very deliberately steers the conversation to things about the Mars attack and why Picard left Starfleet.

Through her, we also start to see the view point of perhaps people who aren’t a part of Starfleet, the civilian side of the galaxy, which she noted that many felt there were better uses for their resources than aiding the Federation’s oldest enemy. And I have no doubt that there were people who did think that. This plays to exactly the sort of sentiment we saw in ENT, when after the Xindi attack, humanity shrank back and started to be xenophobic towards all alien life, not just Xindi. Terra Prime and that whole “Earth First” mentality are all playing again with what we see from this interviewer and her implications. She deliberately pokes at Picard calling for the massive relocation of Romulans. She points to Romulans as an enemy, and she points to the mass number of 900 million Romulan citizens they had to relocate, and how 10,000 warp-capable ferries had to be constructed for the rescue fleet. All of this is clearly a roundabout way of saying that it was a waste of resources, that those resources shouldn’t have been used, and the implication that if they hadn’t build the rescue fleet, then maybe Mars wouldn’t have been targeted and thousands of people wouldn’t have died.

Now, I’ve seen many bad faith takes saying “oh they are making the Federation behave like Nazis!!” or “they are making the Federation into xenophobic racists!!!!” but all of that is disingenuous and ignores what the story actually says. Picard was able to persuade the Federation to help the Romulans, and we know clearly that Spock was also working on the matter to help. The Federation intended to help but only stopped after the rescue fleet was destroyed and thousands upon thousands of people died. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between outright refusing to aid and stopping aid after you’re attacked and your rescue fleet got destroyed. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between maliciously deciding you don’t want to help someone and just watch them drown, and trying to help but you got injured and you are tired and you gave up.

Of course we all want the Federation to keep going and never give up. Of course we want the Federation to always stand up to its ideals of hope and justice. But giving up when you’re hurt is not the same as outright xenophobia, and it certainly doesn’t make you a Nazi. We KNOW from previous Trek shows AND films that the Federation isn’t perfect, that sometimes the Federation makes mistakes, and even has a hard time letting go of grudges and prejudices. I’ve said it many times before, utopias are pretty to look like but they don’t just magically grow out of a vacuum, a perfect world needs work. The moment you become complacent and you don’t put in the effort, a utopia can easily fail. Hell, in this very moment, we are seeing exactly how democracy CAN fail if we don’t work hard to maintain it. And I get it, some people are mad about political allegories, some people are mad that the perfect utopia of escapism isn’t happening. But Star Trek has always held up a mirror to our own world, it has always pointed out our own failings and how we can be better. And THIS is no different. The Federation gave up and shrunk from its duties, yes. They gave into grief, pain, and fear. But it does not mean they are evil. It is telling us that very same thing. We are not evil if we give into fear, but we can also be better, and do better. The world isn’t just magically built, democracy didn’t just happen one day out of the blue, we worked at it, even if it’s sometimes one step forward and two steps back.

Anyways, as we go on with this interview, there’s the bit where the interviewer says it’s only “Romulan lives” at stake and Picard counters her with “No. Lives.” Picard’s very powerful statement that we are all lives, doesn’t matter Romulan or not, is something that is necessary to say not just in the context of the plot, but also in the context of our current society. Right now in this very world we live in, people of color, people from minority groups, are all being dehumanized and otherized, and a populace is basically being fed propaganda hating on people not like them, dismissing people not like them, and somehow forgetting that we are all living breathing beings. So what if our skin pigmentation are different? So what if we speak different languages or have different cultures or beliefs or love different people? We are all still breathing, still living. And this continued otherization has only caused more harm to not only the groups being oppressed, but also to all of us as a species. And yes, I know some people don’t want to hear it, they don’t want “leftist politics” in their Star Trek, but this message has been the same message that Star Trek has been sending out for over half a century. You understood it as kids, you took all that in, so where along the way in your growth did you forget that message?

As Picard stated, lives were at stake and the Federation and Starfleet understood that, they had all those ships out there in the shipyards because they had every intention to help. And if not for the attack on Mars, it would have happened. If 92,143 lives weren’t lost, and 10,000 warp capable ferries weren’t gone, they would have been ready to help. Instead the galaxy mourned, and Starfleet and the Federation withdrew because they too were licking their wounds.

The interviewer compared this logistical feat to the Pyramids, which Picard calls vanity. He points out Dunkirk, the rescue of 400,000 troops on the beaches done through calling in civilian boats. And it’s a more than apt comparison.

We learn that the planetary defense shields were dropped, and Mars’ defense net was hacked, all of this indicates that I think something more than just the synths themselves were involved. Picard says they still don’t know why the synths went rogue. So I think that the synths were nothing more than someone’s means to an end. Either someone in the Federation wanted a reason for the Federation to pull back from helping Romulus, or Romulans from the Tal Shiar wanted to prevent the Federation from helping because they didn’t want to be indebted to Starfleet and the Federation. Whatever it is, it’s covert, and the synths were just the scapegoats for the attack.

And as if the 9/11 analogy isn’t more complete, we know the Mars attack was the reason that synthetic life-forms are now banned. And just to give it some sort of scale that we can understand, it is said that 2,977 victims died from 9/11, the attack on Mars had casualties at least 30 times that of 9/11. Not to mention the shipyard and all the vessels. It would have shaken the Federation, and especially those on Earth, to their core. The fact that the interviewer points out that Mars is still on fire to this day is another thing to note of the effect that is still lingering, much like how 9/11 still is a collective trauma for those who lived through it, even to this day.

Now we see the interview becoming more and more heated, in many ways, the interviewer bringing up Data and asking if Picard lost faith in him, to which Picard says “never”. And we also know that Picard thinks that banning synthetic life-forms was a mistake. The interviewer finally gets to what she clearly wants to ask, why he left Starfleet and what was it that he lost faith in. And Picard answers that he left because “it was no longer Starfleet”, he angrily states that Starfleet had slunk from its duties, and that the decision to call off the rescue was not just dishonorable because they had sworn to help, but also downright criminal, and he wasn’t going to be a spectator about it.

Now, there is something interesting in this moment that I don’t see mentioned much, and it’s that you see Zhaban and Laris watching the interview, and they hold hands. This is clearly something that hurts them too. You can see the emotions on their faces. And while this interview is focused on Picard, we should not forget that this matters to them too. This was Laris and Zhaban’s home that was destroyed, probably people they knew too that died, their families and friends. They are watching an interview that is not just disparaging their race but also discounting the meaning of their lives. And this moment will speak to anyone who has been part of any oppressed groups seeing themselves dehumanized by their lives being an “other”. Picard is standing up not just for Romulans or synthetics, but he is also standing up directly for the two of them, two refugees who have lost everything except each other. It’s a small moment, but it really meant a lot to me watching it, because I understood those feelings. And it made me connect to Laris and Zhaban so much more as characters.

Picard at this point is ready to tear into the interviewer, stating that she has no idea what Dunkirk is, because she’s a stranger to history and stranger to war. And how it isn’t easy for those who died and those who were left behind. Now this moment is very powerful, and clearly the meaning of this scene is meant to be also calling us as viewers to realize how much of our own history that we are a stranger to, and how forgetting that history is the reason we get into the sort of messes that we have today. And I am sure that the writers and director didn’t intend for this to be viewed as anything other than Picard giving all of us a lesson. However, as is with the case of the Xahean boyfriend who died, it is noticeable that it is a white man lecturing a black woman about history. Of course, in universe this isn’t an issue, and as with the issue from before, this is no doubt them wanting to cast actors of color in as many roles as possible, and this is a big scene to have with Picard so of course they cast a brilliant actress for it. But nonetheless it is something noticed, and I think if people make a criticism of that, I would understand, even if I understand also that this is clearly not the intention of the writers or the director.

By the way, the interviewer’s name is credited as Richter, which is a german word meaning “judge”, though I was reminded of the richter scale for earthquakes, and giving she looked to be causing her own little earthquakes during this interview, and being a judge in many ways, both meanings are appropriate.

Finally, Picard walks away from the interview, and this interview is going down, we see Dahj walking in the rain, seeing Picard on the screens nearby doing the interview and recognizing him.

There is also a sign in that scene that says “behold the future, preview next year’s padd tech today” so I guess even in the future, we still get new tech updates like those Apple iPhone conferences and whatnot.

We get a “commercial break” and we’re back at the Chateau. Picard is sitting with Number One quoting "there is no legacy as rich as honesty” from Shakespeare's All’s Well That Ends Well. Number One barks at Dahj approaching, runs over, but seems okay with her. Picard wants to know what she’s doing here and Dahj says she saw his interview and wants to know if he knows her. He does a “what????” expression that kind of made me chuckle because I can just see the question marks in his head. He’s just so confused.

Now there is an interesting thing to note here, Dahj immediately comments “you’re not sure, how do I know that?”, as if she is reading his mind somehow. So could this mean she has some sort of mind reading abilities too? Or is it just that she can read people really well?

Dahj describes all the things that’s happened, saying that her abilities came to her like “lightning seeking the ground” and she’s clearly very upset. Picard, who has every reason to turn away someone who could be rather alarming, instead takes her hands and tries to calm her down. I’ll expand on this later in another scene, but the kindness that he immediately has towards Dahj’s situation is just such a good thing. Compassion is something so lacking right now in the world, and having him being kind to her and not push her away even though he doesn’t know her, is so important. And when Dahj says “everything inside of me says that I’m safe with you”, we the audience certainly believes that.

We cut to Laris healing up Dahj’s cut, and Zhaban puts a blanket on her. Again, showing how kind these two people are, and the caring and kindness that surrounds Picard. No wonder Dahj feels safe. Picard gives her Earl Grey tea and says it “never fails”. The whole scene that follows is just a really sweet and lovely scene of two people connecting. Picard never treating her as if she isn’t to be believed. She asks him if he’s been a stranger to himself, and he answers “many, many times”, which we have seen throughout TNG. If anyone knows how Dahj is feeling, it is Picard. And I love that he connects with her, never dismissing her feelings.

Picard also comments on Dahj’s necklace, saying it was unusual. Dahj said that her father gave it to her. Now some have wondered why it would be an unusual necklace as it doesn’t look unusual, but I don’t know, I guess it looked kinda strange to me. Or maybe Picard recognized the symbol from somewhere and thought it was strange. Dahj says she doesn’t just know Picard because he’s famous, but she knows him from something older and deeper, and Picard says she may be right, clearly feeling like maybe he does know her from somewhere. He again reiterates that he believes her, joking that if she were dangerous, Number One would let him know.

Laris takes Dahj to her room, and she thanks Picard before she goes, clearly very grateful for someone believing in her. Dahj does leave the necklace behind on the table, which Picard looks at.

Next day, he opens up the window and nobody is working. I realized at this point immediately it must be another dream sequence and sure enough Data is in the fields painting. Both him and Picard are in their TNG era uniforms, and Data asks if Picard wants to finish the painting which has no face and is a hooded figure standing overlooking an ocean. Picard says he doesn’t know how, but Data says that’s not true. The moment Picard takes the brush, he’s awoken by the clock, and he immediately turns around to look at the painting behind him hanging up on the wall, which is almost exactly the painting from the dream, only the head is turned away. Obviously his dreams are a way for him to work out things he’s busy thinking about when he’s awake. God if only my dreams work out life’s problems for me. It would be so useful!

Laris comes in to say that Dahj is gone. Now this scene is logistically a little bit oddly placed. I don’t know when Picard wakes up from his dream, but it doesn’t look like 5am. And Laris comes in rather calmly to tell Picard that Dahj is gone, so did Laris just get up at 5am, saw Dahj gone, and went about her day until Picard woke up? Now Picard could have woken up just minutes before too. They just didn’t exactly make it explicitly clear. She did note that Dahj’s door was open, Number One was on her bed but she was gone, and they checked the feeds and she’s not on the property.

Picard, who now has an idea of what to look for, says he has to go but for them to contact him if Dahj returns.

We then change locations to Starfleet Archives, which uses the same museum symbol that the Star Trek Tour folks have. So that’s a nice little touch, nodding to the fans. It’s really sweet. Star Trek Tour is canon now! :D

Now at this moment when we see Picard approaching the archives, the Jerry Goldsmith theme from the Motion Picture plays a little in the background. Again, a beautiful addition from Jeff Russo knowing exactly where to add in the music to make everything feel perfect.

Picard is with a program called Index, who seems to keep an eye on the quantum archive. Picard wants to be sure that his archive is locked in stasis and no one has access, Index makes a joke about selling tickets with Picard noting the humor and saying “don’t give up your day job”. I love funny snarky holograms.

We then see Picard going into his archive and this is certainly a room full of easter eggs, so I’ll just note the items I saw and double checked with Memory Alpha to make sure I had the correct names:

USS Stargazer model

USS Enterprise D and E models

Captain’s yacht from Enterprise E model

Kurlan naiskos – ceramic figurine statue made by Kurlan civilization – gift from former mentor Richard Galen?

TNG era Bat’leth and D’k tahg

Captain Picard Day banner

Picard’s edition of The Globe Illustrated Shakespeare: The Complete Works, usually seen in his ready room/quarters – book is opened to first two pages of Act III of All’s Well That Ends Well – quote from earlier

It was noted from the Ready Room aftershow with Hanelle Culpepper and Michael Chabon (the showrunner), that the Captain Picard Day banner is an interesting way to tell the story of Picard’s change. He used to not like that day at all, and now he keeps that memento as if to remind himself that he maybe should have had more of those moments, showing a bit of his regret.

We get some updated LCARS, which the Picard production crew did give a shoutout to Mike Okuda on twitter. It’s always great to see these original designs get a little update with the times. It’s got more muted colors, which I quite like. And also, the object that covers the painting and retracts back is similar to the mechanical hood device that they used in the Ask Not Short Trek that Pike wore.

Index notes that this painting, which we see has Dahj’s face, is item 227.67, painted by Data in 2369, one of a set of two, gifted to Picard on the Enterprise, and the other is hanging on the wall at the Chateau. And the title of the painting is called Daughter. This confirming that Dahj somehow is Data’s daughter, which makes sense given her resemblance to Lal.

Picard asks Index to be sure that no one has been in the archive, not even for servicing. This means that no one else could have known Dahj’s face unless they were someone who actually knew Data or somehow had access to Data.

Back in France, Dahj seems to be hiding in an alleyway. She contacts her mom who tells her to get somewhere safe. Dahj notes that she did tried but she couldn’t stay because she didn’t want to put anyone else in danger. Her mom says she has to go back to Picard, Dahj frowns because her mom couldn’t have known. We see the image of the Mom glitching somehow? At this moment we don’t know if she’s a hologram or a memory or maybe a person who is being used or coerced? Her mom insists for her to find Picard and that he can and will help her. I can’t be sure if the mom is good or not, but her insisting that she goes to Picard does seem like she wants Dahj to be safe. So maybe the mom is also Dahj’s own defense mechanism? A program that makes sure she stays on course and doesn’t stray? The mom tells Dahj to close her eyes and focus, as if giving her directions on what to do. Next we see that the transmission has terminated and Dahj pulls up new information to find Picard’s location.

We also note that in her call list of favorites, there’s Soji’s name too, which connects to the later scene we see.

Back at the Starfleet Archives again, Picard sees Dahj and is clearly relieved that she’s okay. Dahj points out that she knew how to track him here, “I know stuff now, I can hear conversations a block away.” She then tries to insist that she did research and that she must have schizophrenia or something. Picard says she doesn’t have that and tries to assure her that she isn’t a freak, and instead that she may be very special. He starts telling her about Data, and you can hear the emotions in his voice about what Data meant. Dahj doesn’t know why Picard is telling her that and Picard gently tries to let Dahj know that she may be like Data and that the attack may have acted like a positronic alarm bell. But Dahj doesn’t react well to that, comparing synthetics to the ones who attacked Mars, even at one point calling synths “soulless murder machines”. We can see from Dahj’s comments that resent and fear still exists in the Federation towards android/synthetic life-forms, which from what we know, the attack was only about 10 years ago, so it would still be rather fresh on everyone’s minds.

Picard tells Dahj that Data painted her over 30 years ago, she still tries to resist, stating that she’s from Seattle and that her dad was a xenobotanist who spliced two genuses and named the offspring after her. Dahj clearly feels like she’s losing her sense of self if she is not real, but Picard tells her that her beautiful memories are hers and that no one can touch it or take it away. Picard’s insistent kindness and compassion are just SO VERY IMPORTANT. It is not always in entertainment media that we get these unabashedly kind characters, especially with male characters. And sometimes I think Star Trek is the only kind of show where truly kind and loving male characters are allowed to thrive because that’s the world we expect it to be. But even so, having characters like Picard, an older white male in a place of authority, still being so kind and caring and willing to help people instead of judging them, is important. Because this allows younger generations watching this to have someone good to be their role model, to teach and instill in them that kindness is what you need to have more of in this world. I am especially thankful that new Trek has been able to bring forth these kinds of kind characters, and especially white male characters. We see it with Picard, and we saw it with Christopher Pike in Discovery season 2. Both of these characters’ kindness is what allows others to not only feel safe, but allow people a place to grow and learn, and to have people standing in their corner even when they feel alone. That sense of safety and love, like having a safety blanket over you, is so essential to characters that are eschewing the toxic masculinity that is often very prevalent in entertainment media these days. In many ways, Star Trek, through Picard and Pike, are pointedly stating that men, especially white men, being kind and understanding, is not something to be belittled or dismissed, but rather important things because kindness is its own super power, and it’s with that kindness and love that they can stand up to institutions’ whose ideals have gone astray. Picard standing up to Starfleet is really no different than the scene of Pike calling out Starfleet’s use of drones and stating that “giving up our values in the name of security is to lose the battle in advance.”

Principled and kind lead white male characters are what we need more of these days.

Picard insists to Dahj that she was “lovingly and deliberately created” and that “You are dear to me in ways that you can’t understand, I will never leave you.” And adding that they will go to Okinawa to the Daystrom Institute and get this all figured out. He brightens up when Dahj mentions her having been accepted into the institute, happy for her even if Dahj is no longer happy anymore after all that’s happened. Picard reminds her “You are the daughter of a man who was all meaning, all courage, be like him”

This whole thing of him talking about Data to Dahj is just really emotional, you can see how much he wants to protect her, and how he genuinely means it that he will not leave her. And you can sense the guilt that still clings to him about Data dying for him.

Of course, nice moment again gets interrupted by Romulan assassins, because Romulans just love to ruin your nice moments. Dahj notices someone coming after them and runs with Picard, who can’t really keep up with her. They get to the roof and the assassins start shooting. Dahj tells Picard to stay down and gets on with some serious ass kicking. Again, as I said earlier, this whole fight scene is just so well done. The action is steady that you know exactly what is happening at all time and what she is doing and who she is fighting. You’re not lost, it’s not shaky and blurry.

One of the assassins gets his helmet taken off and as he falls down the stairs, Picard notices that they are Romulan. Another assassin gets knocked over a railing but seems to beam away. Dahj is about to shoot another one when this assassin bites down on a capsule and spews out some kind of liquid acid which gets on the gun and on Dahj’s face and her clothing. She and Picard exchanged a horrified look, she screams and Picard tries to reach for her as the energy gun blows up and Picard is knocked back and blacks out.

Now this moment was certainly a surprise. Through all the marketing, they kept talking about Dahj being the mysterious girl, they never mentioned someone else, so we just always thought it was one character. And I remember looking at the trailers and thinking, did Dahj get out of the cube and run to Picard and then gets taken back to the cube somehow and Picard has to go get her again? But it looks like they were just hiding the surprise of the twins in plain sight and we just didn’t have the information to realize it until now. Dahj’s death is certainly very tragic. Though I don’t know you could call it fridging a female character given that she was always meant to be a catalyst role so they could get to saving her sister? I’m not sure, simply because the story is set up in this way and I’m not sure it would work as well if they told it another way simply just to avoid character death. But perhaps someone would disagree.

But we get back to the Chateau where Picard wakes up after having numerous flashes of previous scenes that’s happened. We see Laris and Zhaban worriedly leaning over him as he’s laid up on the couch. He’s got a bad knock but other than that he’s okay. Picard reveals that Dahj is dead and Zhaban and Laris are surprised because the police didn’t mention her. They only said that Picard was alone when they found him on the roof. There was no one else on the security but him running. Zhaban suggests Dahj could have had a cloaking device and that’s why she wasn’t seen on their property feed either, and Picard thinks it may have activated automatically. So this explains why Dahj couldn’t be seen. But this doesn’t necessarily explain why even the Romulan assassins weren’t seen either or why the police said he was found alone. Which means that between the time the police found him, someone, possibly Romulans, could have wiped all the traces of what happened, and maybe even administered some healing stuff on Picard. OR as some have suggested, it could be that the Federation police could be involved in it, maybe it is some massive cover up. Maybe the Federation is infiltrated somehow by Romulan agents. This certainly wouldn’t be unusual tactics for the Tal Shiar, and we know even back in Discovery, the Klingons made one of them look like a human just so he could be a sleeper agent. So there’s no reason to not think that Romulans couldn’t do the same.

Picard tells Zhaban and Laris that Dahj was a synthetic and that the assassins were Romulans, which surprises both of them, given that they are Romulans, can’t be easy to hear their people are up to something shady. Of course Laris and Zhaban wants him to rest and that he’s done a lot for everyone. But Picard delivers a really powerful and brilliant line that really explains a lot of things.

He says: “Sitting here, after all these years, nursing my offended dignity, writing books of history people prefer to forget, I never asked anything of myself at all. I haven’t been living, I’ve been waiting to die.”

If you look back to the interview when the interviewer asks him why he left Starfleet, that he left in protest, and how angry he got. I think Picard left Starfleet to try to force their hand to help, essentially doing a last desperate bid of if you want me then you better go help these people. And Starfleet basically called his bluff and let him go. That is the “offended dignity” that he’s been nursing. That he tried to do something, using his reputation and importance, and Starfleet basically said, yeah okay, you can go then. I think, more than just Starfleet and the Federation deciding to withdraw, he felt a personal betrayal. The organization that he had given everything to didn’t even bother to fight for its ideals or fight to hold onto him, they gave up on their ideals and they gave up on him, so therefore, he lost faith in them as well. And all this time he’s been wallowing in anger, guilt, and essentially being the spectator that he said he didn’t want to be. He’s been wallowing in self pity, and in that moment, he’s realized that’s not what he wants to do, he’s not going to just slink away from his duties like Starfleet did, he’s now going to do something about it.

We then go to a new location, finally the Daystrom Institute on screen for the first time, in Okinawa. There is this little orbital station in the sky, it looked like one of those stations from The Girl Who Made The Stars Short Trek that young Michael and her dad were on.

Picard meets up with Dr. Agnes Jurati, and asks if it’s possible to make a sentient android out of flesh and blood, she laughs. I find her to be very adorable, a quirky scientist type but not entirely socially awkward, so it’s not the full on nerd girl trope. Once she realizes that he’s serious, she tells him that “even before the ban, a flesh and blood android was in our sights, but a sentient one, not for a thousand years”. She also notes that a sentient synthetic inside and out was the grand slam they were hoping for.

She leads Picard into the Federation’s Division of Advanced Synthetic Research – now a ghost town - because the Androids that attacked Mars came from this very lab - so now they can only operate theoretically – study, publish, run simulations, but they can’t make anything because it would be a violation of galactic treaty.

Jurati shows the drawer containing B-4 to Picard, says he was an inferior copy of Data, but noting that Data tried to download the contents of his neural net into B-4 before his death, almost all of it was lost. Note that she said ALMOST all of it. Which means that they did have some pieces of Data to create things from him. She also brings up Bruce Maddox, whom we saw in the TNG episode “The Measure of a Man”, and despite him trying to get Data to be declared property, we know that he and Data did keep in contact afterwards. Jurati says that Maddox recruited her out of Starfleet, and apparently they came close to create other synths like Data before Data died, and then when they got shut down, it crushed Maddox and he disappeared after the ban.

Now, I suspect that someone may have taken Maddox, and maybe used him to somehow get the synths to go rogue and attack Mars. Maybe even got him to somehow bring down the defense nets. And maybe Maddox could have even created Dahj and her sister Soji for whoever is controlling him as well? Agnes does say that if they had Data’s neural net, then making a flesh and blood body is relative simple, but Picard says Data’s neurons died with him, and thus Jurati says that’s why she kept telling Picard it wasn’t possible to create any other synths. Picard then shows Jurati the necklace from Dahj, and Jurati recognizes that the symbol is for fractal neuronic cloning, an idea of Maddox’s where the theory was that Data’s entire code, even his memories, could be reconstituted from a single positronic neuron.

So given that Jurati said they almost lost all of Data, I assume Maddox took that bit of Data they still had from B-4 and somehow got his theory to work to make Dahj and her sister, modeled from Data’s painting.

Picard learns that the cloning would be created in pairs, twins, realizing that there is another one. And showing us who were surprised at Dahj’s death that the rest of the season must be with the sister instead.

I’m still not entirely sure if Jurati knows something more about what’s going or not. I also don’t know if maybe she helped Maddox create the twins? It’s possible but maybe she is also just a good person and I’m being way too suspicious. But who knows. Anything is possible. TV is making it hard for me to trust people.

Then we get this beautiful transition shot from Dahj’s necklace symbol to a similar shaped rings of light in space as a new looking Romulan warbird flies through space and reaches the Romulan Reclamation Site.

We get the first shot of Narek walking through some smoke with purpose as the Romulan theme from TOS episode “Balance of Terror” plays on in the background like the Imperial March every time with Darth Vader. I LOVE this newly updated rendition. Honestly, someone please give Jeff Russo some awards because his music in this episode is just SO SPOT ON!

Narek is clearly the president of the Romulan division of the Emo Spock Fashion Fan Club? I’m just waiting for him to actually be Spock’s secret son with some Romulan, I mean, we know Spock was on Romulus for a time. And Narek sound close to Sarek. (I’m secretly hoping for this because it would just be hilarious to me!)

He meets with Doctor Soji Asha, Dahj’s twin. I noted that Dahj sounds like an Indian name perhaps? And Soji is a Japanese name. Which seem to be appropriate given that actress Isa Briones is also Asian, being part Filipino, and having spoken about Asian representation in entertainment.

Narek comments on her necklace, which Soji says her father made it, one for her and one for her sister. There was some confusion as to if only Soji knew about her having a sister, but as the earlier call list from Dahj shows, she knew about Soji too. They clearly just held it back from showing it for this reveal. Narek says he had a brother and they were really close but that he lost him last year very unexpectedly. I have a feeling we will get to see what went on with that, or maybe we even know who his brother may be? I originally thought it was Elnor, but I don’t think it works with what we know about both characters, as Elnor was said to have been raised by female warrior monks? So the “last year” comment wouldn’t work for timeline purposes. So the brother is likely someone else who died in 2398, again I don’t know this may be a character we know from any other of the older Trek shows.

He’s clearly trying to flirt with her and get close to her. He also notes that she spends her day fixing “broken people”, so is she fixing Borg survivors or androids or maybe both? We do see in the this season promo of her with Hugh somehow, and other people who look like they got implants, so are the Romulans kidnapping Borg survivors and trying to use them to make androids or something?

Anyways, Narek seem to succeed in ingratiating himself to Soji, looking like they’ll be spending some time together. And the camera then pulls back to reveal the site is in a Borg cube. Meanwhile, that beautiful Romulan theme comes back and plays til the end of the episode.

There’s a “this season on” promo that I’ll probably talk about maybe in a separate post. But YAY we have reached the end of this LONG analysis. If you’ve managed to get through all of it. I commend you and thank you for reading my ramblings.

This episode was a really solid start, setting up great characters and mystery, and reminding us why we love Jean-Luc Picard.

I can’t wait to see where the story will take us next and meet the rest of the cast!!!!!!!!

#star trek picard #star trek picard spoilers #in depth analysis

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comicteaparty · 4 years

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May 30th-June 5th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from May 30th, 2020 to June 8th, 2020. The chat focused on the following question:

What flaws does your protagonist possess, and how do you show this in story?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

he tends to run away from things and people!

i show this by having him run away from things and people!

She's reckless and always thinks she's right. I show this by having her follow her opinions into dangerous situations haha

I have no idea how to answer the second part of that question

My antagonist

also reckless and always thinks she's right

what a pair

wow, you guys are typing a lot.

eliushi [a winged tale]

As the only wingless child, Florence is used to others ostracizing her. This causes her to believe that she’s worthless or at least a crappy replacement for her mother since she has trouble reading. This is shown by her being passive when confronted with the other winged children and tolerant being left behind. When her mother disappears, her first thought is to find her mother (to make sure mom is safe of course) but really because she feels she can’t possibly fulfill the roles her mother did for the winged community.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

man i gotta read a winged tale seriously

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

For my comic uh lmao. It's been touched during OIYD!'s ctp chat but Cara tends to think critically on her romantic relationships, and thus even when things she goes well, she has her doubts and tries to end it before it develops lmao. Also she runs from her problems a lot (been addressed by her friend Ana through their last discussion). She done goof a lot of things but OIYD! will be pushing on her to how she gonna deal with those mistakes and her shortcomings too.

also like i guess how its depicted uh through dialogue and her body language. she physically closes herself off a bit when Ana was roasting her, and upon meeting with Richie too. so yeah lmao

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Phaedra's faith and devotion to her patron goddess is, to her, a great strength - but in light what she'll have to go through, it could very well be the source of her breaking point. She's never had to consider other perspectives - to her, the line between good and evil is as clear as the horizon, and no one can tell her otherwise. I haven't gone into it much yet, apart from a few sentences in the first chapter, but it'll become painfully clear later. Her family has dutifully served the goddess for generations, and as such, Phaedra has effectively put all her eggs in one basket, and is extremely proud to have done so. As time goes on, we'll see how that works out for her...

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

AAAA

blurred lines between good and evil

I love that

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Hooooh boy! My characters are basically just big buckets of flaws and personal issues. Izrekiel's flaws: * As a result of his amnesia and past traumas that still have an effect on him despite his inability to remember them, he changed from originally a fairly passionate, happy person to a rather reclusive and distrusting mess. I try to show this with his reluctance to speak much of the time, and how difficult it is for him to befriend Agatha. * He's also very quick to anger, which I show later in the story when he gets into somewhat petty fights with people. * Oblivious to even the most obvious of things, he often misinterprets people or misses nuances altogether. He is definitely not a social butterfly and comes off rather awkward most of the time. It happens a lot when someone makes a joke around him, and he just stares silently. * The rest are big ol' hefty spoilers! Agatha's flaws: * She can be incredibly bossy or "mom-ish," especially to her younger sister, but also to any random person whom she deems needs help. This is shown pretty obviously with her immediate urge to "fix" Izrekiel. * Definitely overbearing. She has the best intentions of friendliness, but she will stick her nose so far into your business that her nostrils will flatten. Mainly, she asks a lot of questions, and it can be rather annoying and obtrusive. * She also has a habit of not listening to what her younger sister, Maret. has to say. She often unintentionally ignores her, thinking her more "adult" issues to be far more pressing.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sunny: -She’s fiercely independent. As a result it takes her a longer time to trust people and tell them what’s wrong. -Doesn’t like the idea of people telling her what to do, because she craves the sense of control she was denied in earlier years -Dislikes showing sadness since it makes her uncomfortable. So she defaults to anger instead. As a result, she’s more likely to lash out in anger and regret the actions she did in the heat of the moment. -Sunny needs to realize that people aren’t inherently monsters either, that people can be morally grey. Her black and white morality may be challenged in both her writing and her relationships. But we’ll see about that. Liam: -Pretty blunt about criticizing people. He grew up in a critical household but needs to learn that there are different ways to give criticism -Highly uncomfortable with conflict. You’ll find him trying to fix the issue as fast as possible and when that doesn’t work...he’ll flee and even outright lie. It makes him seem untrustworthy and unreliable. -he loves his family. But they are his biggest fears too; the fear of disappointing them, the fear of losing their love. -for a calm guy, he tends to hide a lot of incredible self loathing and guilt. How that will affect his relationships, particularly sunny, has yet to be seen.(edited)

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Nyx thinks with her axe. She’s pretty clever if she has to be, but her usual approach to problems is „off with their head.“ The consequences off that are what drive the majority of the story - she nearly gets herself and the people around her killed. The big problem is she‘s a drifter - she rarely sees the consequences of her actions.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Nyssa‘s a bit spoiled and soft and while she overcomes that easily enough, it‘s the combination of her believing she can fix absolutely EVERYTHING and her incapability of dealing well with failure that brings her to her breaking point.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I really love that I can identify with everyone’s character flaws and that makes it all the more relatable

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Lead girl: Naomi Belfry had to deal with fleeting moments of affection from her parents trying to give her a stable childhood altho everything came crashing after her father's absence. Trying to keep this spoiler limited, like children in her position, she escaped reality through imagination lens and her obsession in her interests in forensic and observation. - I plan to show this, whenever something perks her interest, whether it's witnessing a crime scene, dangerous object or observing people at parties. Naomi also lacks a sense of trust in others due to broken promises but it conflicts with her yearning for companionship and love. Will see how she juggles her different sides. I plan for her to be morally gray. Trisha Bennett: She is a big-hearted girl and loyal friend to Naomi. Despite the rumors of the Belfry clan, Trish sees the lonely girl who tried to push others away. Trish's flaw is that she always puts other's happiness before her own. From a young age, she cared for her siblings, sometimes her grandma. Everyone basically pushed responsibility to her, due to her inability to say no. She listens to Naomi's rambles about a new mystery she's discovered.(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

nervously stares at the dumpster fire that is Trigger Elliot

eliushi [a winged tale]

Give us all the FLAWS

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

there's so many ! Trigger's biggest flaw is his constant running away from his problems and taking ANY sort of responsibility. He takes his short comings out on those around him, and is constantly in a bad mood in the comic. His biggest hurdle is his past with his ex GF, Boggmouth, to which is his biggest fear and one that he's been trying desperately to run away from (so far that he changed his name, dyed his hair, lost his glasses, etc) Vahn has many flaws as well, mostly surrounding them as a mystery and that inability to step up to the plate. They're similar to Trigger in running away from problems, as they are more comforted with familiar spaces than new territory of becoming more or something else. Vahn also has a past they have yet to deal with!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

wow i really like reading people's different character flaws! Krispy, your character Trigger is such a complex character. I should get on reading it (edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’m curious how everyone thought of their flaws for their characters. Did they come to you naturally? What would you say makes a flaw compelling to read/draw/experience?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't really make a character and then go, 'alright, time to add some flaws.' Like.... the same trait or even the same action can be seen as good or bad depending on who you ask?

eliushi [a winged tale]

Totally agree. A trait when taken to the extreme can be a flaw (too kind —> becoming a doormat). How do you make sure that flaw is the “right” one or the one that most fit with your character and plot?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Even the extreme-ness may be different depending on who you ask. Some people may feel it was 100% justified; others may feel it was too extreme, or even the opposite, not enough!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I like to imagine how those flaws would work in real life. If those flaws carry the story and force the characters to develop/face consequences, I usually include them

eliushi [a winged tale]

So true keiiii and I like that approach shadow!

So what makes a trait a flaw for you keiiii

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like look at all the disagreements IRL...

I don't like to divide character traits into flaws/virtues, personally. Like, yes, there are times I notice a trait and go "oh yeah, that's totally Bad, totally a flaw." But as a storyteller, I don't use that kinda judgment as a primary tool. I guess it's in the same vein as the whole 'no one is a villain in their own story' school of thought?

eliushi [a winged tale]

That’s fair!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

It took awhile to develop my character's flaws! I start out drawing the character for fun. For some characters, I made them with intention of flipping Anime tropes, I felt some of them are so shallow, I want to flesh them out in my own stories. So as I write, their flaws are reflected in their upbringing. The personality gets revised over until I have certain ideas in mind, then their flaws come along with the creation process.? I have two sides of my brain cell where, I want to draw these children in a fun, safe environment. Then I got this other side, influenced by teen stories/games where I want to give them risks, be delinquents, have messy choices. I gravitate to stories of teenagers finding themselves?(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

What I do pay close attention to is: do the characters have major disagreements ever? If the answer is no, then I may have a problem.

eliushi [a winged tale]

All the juicy conflicts

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think I gravitated toward portraying a flaw I knew I had when I was younger. Something I'm able to look at with a more critical eye, now that I have more experience. Something I can portray both critically and sympathetically - so people can still like the character, but want them to grow past their flaw.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like, even if I don't think of a trait/action as bad, SOMEONE in the story would probably not agree with it. Stuff like that.

And vice versa

I do think HoK focuses a lot on greyness as an undertone, though. Not every story would benefit from this approach.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I like to design my flaw aligned to the LIE the character believes (in reference to character arcs) and see what sort of negative consequences that will be interesting for the characters to try and overcome

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

In my previous comic, almost every major player was BAAAAD, and that was the point of the story.

But HoK is not like that.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

ooh the Lie that a character believes? That's interesting, Eli.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think that makes for a good sympathetic protagonist - we're all told things that we may have to unlearn, or learn to read differently. For the protagonist, it's an awakening to the truth of the world around them. Their job as a protagonist is to accept that awakening, for better or for worse.(edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Yeah I like to approach character arcs using this reference https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/character-arcs-2/amp/ the flaw comes easier to me once I have the specific LIE developed

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ooooh that's a good one Eli and to piggy back off of you, LadyLazuli, a lot of character flaws I chose were observed from either close friends, family, and even myself! There's something about intimately knowing about these flaws that you can see how it unfolds in real life

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

this would be so helpful, I have a teen character for my slice of life, that I couldn't figure his flaws out, other than being anxious. Will look into these books.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

You can try! It would help a lot I read somewhere that one of the reasons Princess Mononoke had such great characters wasn't because they were inherently good or bad.

Rather, they each had differing goals and that is where the conflicts are.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, one moment in that movie that really shines in that aspect IMO was when Ashitaka talks to Eboshi, and she retorts, "so you want us fight the samurai instead!" (i.e. instead of fighting the forest animals) This was not treated as a big moment in the movie; it was quick and pretty understated. Nonetheless, I feel it really hit the nail on the head with that particular theme.

like, "our disagreements are distracting us from the TRUE enemy: this third party!!!" is totally a valid theme, but it's not the only resolution in that kinda situation. I'm glad Princess Mononoke went for a different direction.

They did have a third party (heck, a fourth party too), but it wasn't what the whole situation was about.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I’m curious how everyone thought of their flaws for their characters. Did they come to you naturally? What would you say makes a flaw compelling to read/draw/experience?

yuh that's a good question. I just kinda look at the experiences I had so far or what my family or friends experienced and I'm like "what is a good thing about this flaw, what is not so good?" like there's some juggling to figure out like in some situations its great and others it's just lmao pain.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

In my case, I didn't really "think of flaws" for my characters. My characters just kinda popped up in my head, and as I got to know them, their traits—both good and bad—revealed themselves to me.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for Cara's case its like lmao idk. a reflection of how my mom and I handle dealing with romantic relationships, and just seeing where that goes lol

for Richie, it's like that but what we like in men/masc-presenting folk but take it up to 10x and see what happens LMAOO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

So basically it could be a case of veering one trait into the extreme

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

(Also, I totally agree that the characters in Princess Mononoke are stellar! Especially Ashitaka and Eboshi.)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, but I also made sure there's nuances too since they aren't a true reflection of our own chimera they need to stand out as their own characters after all, not a voice piece

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yeah, the scene I still remember from that movie was when lady eboshi showed ashitaka around Irontown and he sees how she helps the lepers and the women be empowered. It showed that she’s a morally grey character

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I always like messing with that kind of of diacomtomy between people and just lmao idk I just like seeing that despite differences things are connected lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I really like the Disagreement-focused approach. Where would the characters disagree with each other? With YOU, the author? Would they ever call you out on something? Would you agree or disagree with the callout?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Also tuyetnhi I agree. While we can also include flaws of our own, there comes a time where our characters eventually develop into their own person

It’s like watching your child grow up

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I learned that young durring my RP days in the early 2010s

lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

And when Ashitaka reveals a rather selfish thought of his. Eboshi: Does that arm of yours want to kill me? Ashitaka: If it would lift the curse, I would let it tear you to pieces.

(I've watched this movie way too much throughout my life tbh )

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) absolutely! Your characters won’t always do what you want. Sometimes they have ideologies that make you want to shake them or disagree. Because in the end, the characters aren’t you

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I actually didn't see that as particularly selfish about Ashitaka (and I think that's a good thing that we see these differently)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

They will make mistakes that you might not in real life. let them.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah lmao that's why in cara's situation I'm like "same" but also "Noooooooooooo why u do that"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) And they might not even see those actions as mistakes, depending.

And YOU will make mistakes (or "mistakes"... again... depending) that the characters wouldn't make

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

even stuff I don't even realized from other friends who looked at Cara and they're like "she's her biggest cock block; it's that personality." lmaO

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

You don't know how many times I've wanted to slap the shit out of my characters

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

honestly

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) And they might not even see those actions as mistakes, depending.

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) exactly! Hence these are the Lies they might have developed! They might have lies they grew up with that don’t match with ours

And yes....there are times I want to facepalm whenever I see my characters make a mistake I wouldn’t have. But I know that they’ll eventually develop out of it....or face natural consequences.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Anyone else here doing more grey-focused stories? Not every story needs to be that, you can have very mature stories that aren't grey. But yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have a very grey character

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I mean... I guess it depends on labeling. I have very strong opinions, but I feel like my characters could very easily be seen as grey by others

Especially my villain

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think "grey-focused" is less about the characters and more about the narrative, but yeah, it's pretty case by case

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I think in that case Cara would be considered .... light grey?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

This character did something VERY bad, and his actions have caused people to be split about his actions But he has deep regrets and guilt about it, even though it was a necessity at the time(edited)

Whether or not people forgive him or understand his motivations

Only time will tell

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Oh yeah, my narrative definitely can be seen as grey.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

since it's her narrative focus in the story but as there's some dark moments, most of it is just her just figurings thing out

dark moments as in lmao "i'm hurt in the feels"

not life death situations lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I switch between perspectives a lot in WotP, so it definitely can be seen as grey

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I don’t like grey morals that much, actually. My favourite narrative device is genuinely good people working at cross-purposes. Nobody is evil, or grey; but their personal histories and goals set them into conflict with each others.

These histories often cause or are brought by their flaws, too. But a flaw doesn‘t necessarily make you grey.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't mean grey as "an even mix of good and bad." I meant more like, the narrative does not take sides.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for Richie, i guess for his development as something that is a mere figment of fantasy and trying to be like "wow I wonder what being a person is like?" and he might just become a grey character if he ever experiences Cara's world lol

ahhh

yeah this story is probably pretty grey then lmao

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

You can have a narrative taking side and still be good-people-in-conflict.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

There is one scene I wrote where the morally grey character meets someone who he’s affected. She hates him, but understands his motivation. Both of them have a heart to heart and agree that they were simply two people who were involved in a tragedy, and it hurt everyone.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's a thing too! But I'm specifically curious about stories where the narrative does not take sides

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

So in the end, it was a scene where the audience can sympathize with both, but these characters are in conflict

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel you can't really have a character who will be universally seen as 50:50 good:bad. Different people will have different opinions about the same character.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

that's so true like

idk, i guess this is an annoyance when protraying folks

and i'm like "ya just make it like it is, if you're intimate with their background or have relevant experiences with it"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

In real life you’re going to meet people who may not like you

Some may even hate you

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

that's why I'm like gearing Cara as like that lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Not everyone is going to agree or like you, and it’s the same with charavters

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yepppp

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Just because another character dislikes your main protagonists does not necessarily make them a villain

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

That's what I'm thinking too. I may see a certain character of mine as leaning more good, and another as leaning more bad, but I know my readers are likely going to disagree. I call my villain a "villain" because he opposes the "heroes," but honestly, I know that a large part of my readerbase is going to take his side in the end.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

In every villain’s mind they are the heroes of their own story

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It reminds me of a quote from the Inheritance series

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't 100% agree actually, but I do agree with something in the same vein

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

[me looking at my story] "who really is the antagonist? it's probably all of you" [points at 3 characters at the same time]

lmao

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like not everyone actually thinks of themself as heroic -- but most will see their choices as reasonable given the circumstances.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I agree. Probably should have reworded it as “everyone thinks they are the protagonist of their own stories”

A protagonist can be “villainous” too.

Also tuyetnhi lmao you have so many antagonists

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

omg I missed this really good convo on Princess Mononoke, I LOVE Lady Eboshi's character. I was busy talking about character writing for another show(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes she is a wonderful character! Let’s use her as an example

In her own mind she sees herself as a protagonist defending the leper’s and the women

And having to fight her way to the top from being a slave

She could have her own story herself!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's like Cara has to fight her dreams, her family, her firends and her self as a cock block ya LMAO

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Eboshi is fantastic. She's not good, she's not evil, she's just a person doing what she thinks is best. Even if she ends up doing more harm than good, her aim is to protect her people and strengthen her town. She does some truly heroic things as well as some heinous ones. And I love how Ashitaka lands squarely between the two factions - in his own way, because he seeks peace, he almost acts as a villain for both the gods and the humans. SO COMPLEX it's lovely.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

aggressively throws love at Studio Ghibli

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A related question that's fun to ponder is, who or what do they blame when things don't go well? (Obviously the answer's gonna vary a LOT depending on the circumstances, but something fun to think about)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmaoooo oh man

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Gosh, that's a great question.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Cara would blame herself if it's something she consciously done wrong, but if it's something out her control she'll blame the person or thing she thinks caused the inconvenience.

Cara: "Stupid sexy... man coming out of my dreams looking..... ass"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Don't we all wish we had a stupid sexy dream man to blame

(maybe not but lol)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Izrekiel would blame himself. Agatha would blame the powers that be. Ryukou would blame Izrekiel. Maya would blame Ryukou....

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm that is a good question

Sunny blames others in the heat of the moment, but she’ll think back and regret it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for Richie uh lmao he blames himself for most things.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Liam blames it all on himself, and won’t tell anyone

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Phaedra blames herself initially. Then, as with all things, deflect the blame to Ocean Satan.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

if it something Cara done tho, I think he'll have to do some mental gymastics that he isn't outright hurting her feelings but getting his point across (hypothetical situation here lmao I need to draw faster)

ocean satan lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I feel that energy from him tbh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ocean Satan/lucifer probably has his own fan following tho

Chethanists

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Fata Morgana! Or the Bone Church (RIP)

but yeah, when the origin of all your world's problems is a single entity - BLAME IT

very easy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

just like blaming an alternative god for the misfortune of humanity lmao

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

In my story, Naomi might go into deep thinking if things don't go well. It means the mystery got deeper and she wants to find out why did it not go well? It depends, I should write a case where the blame can go easily to someone, but the MC has a different reaction than others.(edited)

It depends on situation, I'm trying to think about something that makes the character blame someone? Jasper might be the type of kid, who self blames his own incompetence.(edited)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Thorn is impressively good at figuring out how to assign blame/responsibility to the right parties in the right proportions, but to be fair, he's had a lot of therapy

varethane

That thing about never having a character everyone will like is so true-- I feel like the most consensus I've ever had was over Teeko, the main character of my previous webcomic. Almost everyone agreed that she was a cinnamon roll, but there were others who considered her irritating (or at best, found her irritating at first but then got to like her)(edited)

I'm pretty sure the lead of my new comic will be significantly more polarizing

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

(He has PTSD from a dragonslaying mission that went bad, where he didn't give the order that made it all go wrong but was in a strong position to stop it and didn't, so Responsibility been kind of a major theme in his brain ever since)

varethane

Her major flaws are that she's kinda selfish and impulsive, and while I have a whole Arc planned, that type of character is just guaranteed to rub some readers the wrong way

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Meanwhile, Leif is very well-conditioned to assign responsibility to "anything and anyone except my country's leaders and system of government"

Which is also changing over a long-term character arc! And there's definitely debate in the comments sections at any given stage about how reasonable he's being now

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

My favorite flawed character ever is Leona from Prague Race. I loved that comic but not gonna recommend because it is on forever hiatus. I'd never seen her flaws before in any other character and yet felt them deeply. Her flaws are to the point where you're not even sure if she is a good person. https://www.praguerace.com/comics/1438038533-06.jpg https://www.praguerace.com/comics/1438197522-07.jpg https://www.praguerace.com/comics/1438802007-08.jpg(edited)

varethane

She isnt, at all, but I still love her as a character ahaha

(Well okay she is a little bit at least)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Ahh I remember Prague race

It’s fantastic. I really enjoy the antihero/unconventional qualities Leona has(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i LOVE her

I love her look

I love her attitude

she is like

my favorite character ever in webcomics

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ahhh so is her flaw having her desires supersede others?

Or desiring entertainment even at the cost of hurting others?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

She is exceptionally curious, to the point of recklessness(edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Flo: blames herself Ash: blames anyone but Flo Ice: blames anyone but themself Bell: blames the person who is deemed logically wrong

I think Leona’s flaw is self-centredness. AFAIK it’s because she is going to die? Terminal illness? then she feels the world owes her everything

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

She was like that before that happened though

Like in the opening where she drags her friend into a sketchy shop and plays with the mysterious artifacts and falls into a new world

eliushi [a winged tale]

Ah so just a selfish character then?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

All the while being like

"hey neat!"

eliushi [a winged tale]

Disregards others’ boundaries for her amusement and purpose

It’s a great flaw to explore

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh that one is a very good flaw

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Before this point it was more disregarding her own life for her amusement and purpose

It's her own fault she has a year to live

eliushi [a winged tale]

It’s all starting to come back haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

So basically she’s self entitled

Those types are tough to pull off

If there’s one character flaw I want to see more, it’s characters that struggle with taking a stand

eliushi [a winged tale]

For sure. I find antihero and passive protagonists especially difficult to write/draw

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i might be the opposite because people complain about my protag being too passive lol

He just wants to live

/not live

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm, I’m the opposite actually! I dislike conflict so I try to either run away or hide when it happens

So for me it’s easier to write someone who is scared of conflict and is seen as a coward than someone more active

eliushi [a winged tale]

Eli did the proactive choice to follow the minor goddess right? I see that as having agency

I meant more of writing them as compelling characters

Especially as protagonists

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ahhhh i'm glad

i agree that stories usually read better when the main characters have a goal

it gives you a thread to follow throughout the story

eliushi [a winged tale]

For sure. Having a clear external goal to augment the internal one is key

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What if the main character’s goal is not having a goal

Or being viscerally against the goals of everyone else

eliushi [a winged tale]

Against the goals is a goal in itself I think haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Where it’s seen as against the cultural norm to have one....like Eli

Omg full circle lmao

eliushi [a winged tale]

But if the goal is to be passive then... that’s where I find it is difficult to write compellingly

Unless you have side characters that boost the agency

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ugh can't talk about eli while talking to eli

i got confused lol

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I think with those types it works with other characters also having goals

Exactly Eli!

.....oh my god this is getting confusing

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ack now i got confused in the opposite direction

i think

eliushi [a winged tale]

Exactly shadow. Hence I designed ash, ice and bell to be strong voices to counteract quiet Flo

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I love me some well-written passive characters TBH

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

mm i agree. if the mc doesn't have a lot of agency, other people need to to drive the plot forwards

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yeah! I did the same thing by having sunny be outspoken and Liam be the one that runs away

And she ends up having to call him out on his shit!

I wonder if their passivity can be both a strength and a weakness tho

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think I actually gravitate more towards passive ones than to overtly proactive ones, with all other factors being hypothetically equal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

stares at Danbi

eliushi [a winged tale]

But I find there’s a point in which your passive character needs to make a change for their arc; stasis = death. Ultimately depends on the narrative and theme and with a negative arc it’s something to play with

Danbi is not passive I don’t think

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmm danbi has a passive nature But you’re right now that I think about it

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think part of it is I'm currently in the "I need to take a break from those ultra-motivated shounen action MCs" phase

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Me: Eli is passive! Eli: no Shadow: Danbi is passive! Eli: no

eliushi [a winged tale]

I find the passive protagonist is like the boy in hyouka

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

what's he like? i haven't read/seen that

eliushi [a winged tale]

Or a lot of those anime’s where the love interest or others drag them into things

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ahhh those types

You’re right about those being hard to write about because they can become satellite love interests

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm thinking more along the lines of, when the story itself isn't about WE RESOLVE THIS BIG CONFLICT YES

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

With no motivation except for their friends/love interests

eliushi [a winged tale]

https://hyouka.fandom.com/wiki/Houtarou_Oreki

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I have not actually read this, so not sure why this is the example to come to my mind, but: there's this manga? in which humanity is facing extinction, but people are just calmly accepting instead of panicking or rebelling. They're not trying to fix things, they're just living out their lives

varethane

In Wychwood, Felix is an extremely passive character (it's one of his biggest flaws, he's absolutely terrible at standing up for himself and..... I mean, atm he doesnt really have any opportunities to make decisions for himself, but if he does he second guesses himself and ends up doing nothing lol)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I see that as more of a choice of acceptance keiiii

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ooooh okay I see Eli

eliushi [a winged tale]

But I mean we all have different definitions and thresholds we refer as passive

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I mean it's okay for us to define "passive" differently, as long as we're aware of how the different definitions affect the discussion

eliushi [a winged tale]

Yep yep

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

If I knew we were all going to die and there was nothing i could do about it, I think I'd just live out my life too. Spend time with family and cook good food.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

In that case there is one character I have like that, but the reason he’s passive is because his hyperperfectionism has marred him and he’s severely depressed now

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’m more referring to a narrative passive character https://www.jimenainovaro.com/blog/2019/9/7/passive-protagonist-how-to-tell-if-you-have-one-and-how-to-fix-it

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Anyway, HoK is like that: it's not about FIX THIS BIG PROBLEM WITH THE WORLD. The world does have massive problems, and there are multiple groups of people trying to fix, delay, or otherwise address those Big Problems in various ways. But the story itself is not about that.

eliushi [a winged tale]

Right so if the story is not about saving the world, in relation to the actual theme of the story, I don’t think Danbi is passive

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

ELUISHI

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

mm we're talking about the benefits of passive characters but that link is "how to fix it" ah

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

YOU’RE HERE

eliushi [a winged tale]

Oh hai!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like that article is written with the assumption that you want the readers to root for the MC, which I think is.... not necessarily what you want.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hello????

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

It depends on what kind of story you want to write I guess

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah like lmao root when you feel like it worm

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I guess for my story it's just lmao done out of my curiosity and just seeing that to form.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Full disclosure, I do not read fast enough to have read the entirety of that article by now (edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Exactly shadow

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

But I think that also brings up an important point

eliushi [a winged tale]

https://threekookaburras.com/blogs/news/14720925-writing-tips-whats-wrong-with-a-passive-protagonist perhaps another viewpoint

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

WHAT is the "ideal reader reaction" you want with the story? (can break this down to "with this one scene/ arc" etc)

(can also have multiple ideal/desired reader reactions for the same story/ arc/ scene)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ooh that's an interesting question

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(I also really like parentheses)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I feel like that article is written with the assumption that you want the readers to root for the MC, which I think is.... not necessarily what you want.

I recall you mentioning HoK is more like a character study. I think more conventional storytelling want the audience to be invested in the protagonist

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i honestly don't really have an answer

just want people to know these characters and this world

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Personally the reaction I want....is for other people to learn along with them

And hopefully touch their hearts

And yeah keiiii you DID mention that it’s more focused on character development at one point

eliushi [a winged tale]

Ideal reader reaction by act 1: exciting adventure here we go! Act2: oh no Act 3: oh that makes so much sense why everything is happening but how will they succeed Act 4: hope

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OH that’s what you mean?

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

What’s an act four

eliushi [a winged tale]

Oops I meant season

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think. My four chapters are similar to Eli's

eliushi [a winged tale]

(Season 1 is act 1; seasons 2&3 act 2 and last season is act 3)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for me, like if to make my characters relevant to the audience isn't the main goal. like relevant characters doesn't equate to folks understanding to the nuances of their struggles. at least for me. I just want to write the story for the sake of it and what folks react to it uh lmao that's their reaction. stick for the ride if you want to see things panned out is my mind set

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Arc 1: people are excited then sad...what the fuck shadow Arc 2: oh my god oh my god this happened it’s chaos angst time Arc 3: melancholic but going up in a way Arc 4: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH Arc 5-7: this is sweet as hell

eliushi [a winged tale]

Yeah I should rephrase: there can be many reasons why you want the audience to NOT root for the protagonist (ie protagonist is a serial killer and the reader is more keen to know if justice will be served)

But these are done intentionally and the protagonist is not passive in the narrative sense(edited)

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Act One: Buildup Plot Point: NO NO NO NO Act Two: angst Plot Point: Act Three: Ships

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like, I don't necessarily want anyone to agree with any of the characters. But I want people to be able to see why they think or feel the way they do. More importantly, I want people to FEEL that their (the characters') feelings are real and powerful. So I guess for every arc of HoK it all comes down to: "my heart is breaking and healing at the same time"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Natasha I relate to the ships coming in later part

same

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

I’m tryna have at least one ship sail in act two XD

eliushi [a winged tale]

I live for the AHHHHH and

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

dang I just love throwing curveballs

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

we can tell

eliushi [a winged tale]

Shadow will draw the ships for me

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh the AHHHHH part is a ship

YES I DRAW ALL THE SHIPS

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

The is my favorite part of the story

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

not saying which ship tho sorry

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Aside from the ships

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lol

if I have to break up the structure for OIYD!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes the is a good scene More please

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

... nah it's too soon to share ask me again in 5 years or somethin

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

@Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!) mood

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like lmao i'm on ch. 3

and it's early to draw some conclusions of what structure i had set up, but I do have a clear idea where I want going with it. just... have to draw it lol

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Dude I’ve basically scripted my act three and I haven’t even gotten to my first major turning point

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same mood, same boat

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve only scripted up to arc 2

And I’m already feeling the chaos

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for me uh.. I guess its main arcs are there

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

My act one is the most solid, followed by act three. I’m slowly figuring out the middle XD

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Because shit gets dark in the end of arc 1

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but I had chopped off like 8 chapters lmaO

Deo101 [Millennium]

I script... like one scene at a time if that..

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so it's a lot shorter than it was originally intended but at least

it is more impactful for me lmao

just non canon content now lol

eliushi [a winged tale]

You got this Natasha!

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

YEAH!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I also can't script super ahead, at least with this story. With my previous comic I scripted like 2+ years worth of content in advance

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oof that's my first webcomic lmao

and ... I stopped after the first chapter lmao

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

What reader reactions I want for my comic? Uhhh... Volume 1: Pretty world! And also some mysteries... Volume 2: Even more mysteries... culminating in the moment Volume 3: IT'S EVERYTHING I COULD'VE WANTED

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah my next comic I'm planning ive got a script for like a whole thing but for this one im like "hmm... what seems fun?"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For me, I think the main factor is that the previous comic was heavily dialog-driven (you could convert it to an audio drama with minimal changes), while my current comic is very visual (you really can't convert it into an audio drama...)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

EVERYTHING WE WANT CLAIRE?!!?!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Everything you want

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

EVERYTHING?????

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yes

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

man, it must have some good cheese in there

Deo101 [Millennium]

oh are we answering what we want our readers to think?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yea

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yiss

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like "I'm not qualifed to answer this because lmao"

Deo101 [Millennium]

I want my readers to be like oh this is fun! the whole time, i think

dont want it to change, want it all uphill

no stress or nothin just fun times

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Deo reading your webcomic is like going to the beach Pretty chill

Deo101 [Millennium]

hell yeah!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Space beach!

Hey my rank just changed!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Wha

Deo101 [Millennium]

when you read my comic I want you to feel like youre sittin poolside with a cool drink and some sunglasses

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it does have that vibe yeee

Deo101 [Millennium]

fuck yeah thats everything I could want babeyyyy

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

It has mojito pina colada vibes

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

aww yeee

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Mine is just sangria

WITH SHOTS

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I guess for OIYD! is just "bloody mary please say sike"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Is eightfish’s like....champagne

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Refreshing glass of ocean water

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Is this the "what drink would your comic be" topic?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

salty

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

salt

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Ooooh good question

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Time to bring up my answer to that question again: "liquid bacon fat, so that it stays in your heart forever."(edited)

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Hot chocolate

Dark chocolate kind

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Holy shit that’s two sides of the spectrum right there

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Omg keii

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

keii idk how I feel about that if I'm gonna have caradiac arrest reading your comic lmao

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Heart Attack Of Keol

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Clogging my arteries oh lord

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

You're killing me today kei

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Omg

But wait is Phantomarine also a glass of ocean water

Deo101 [Millennium]

not read it yet but I feel like its that blue drink from applebees

do you know the one im talkin about, the one with the shark gummy in it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

whaaaaat

We don’t have Applebee’s here do explain

YES?!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

drop a big salt chunk at the bottom of it and YEP that's Phantomarine

Deo101 [Millennium]

very sweet but there are like 2 shots in it so you will get 1: brain freeze and 2: more tipsy than u think!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yuhhh

my mom always buy that drink deo

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I kinda want to try it now

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

It's good

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Applebees come to Canadia plz

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmaoo

wait what

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

We canucks want to get a brain freeze pls

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

there's no applebees in Canadaland?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Nope

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omgGGG

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

We have a tims tho

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

also this might be getting a tad bit off-topic so watch out

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

okay tru tru lmao

dang tragic like

imagine making drink references in your comic and someone is like

"yo what is that? lemon juice?"

"........... lemonade?"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Sorry rebel. We are just perpetually off topic

Deo101 [Millennium]

the page that had orange juice in millennium everyone was talking about the orange juice

and same with the page that there was milk

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

actually this would be an intersesting question like lmao if your comic still makes references to your native place of being

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

The logo was funny deo

And cute

Although at first I thought the cow was a space pig...

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like having orange juice in space i'm like yaaaa lol

Deo101 [Millennium]

okay but the page with milk also had a murder skeleton

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But space pig

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Skeleton milk

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Mmmm yes taste the calcium

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so much calc

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Enough to bone milo

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah everyone was like "he just wants the milk!"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Page with the clock everyone was talking about the clock

The way deo draws inanimate objects is just

Really memorable

I guess

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

whu

Deo101 [Millennium]

you would be the first person in my life to have ever said that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omg

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

(or maybe you just don't have anything else more interesting on the page :p)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

The devil is in the details

Or should I say

bone milk

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Crunchy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i don'tt hink I can handle bone milk since i'm starting to develop an intolerance to lactose

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I'd love to draw my ships but anxious brain thinks, I shouldn't because no one knows them

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I remember that there was a talk about the page on deo’s server

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh man ships worm lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And someone mentioned carbonated milk

Deo101 [Millennium]

I dont wanna think about carbonated milk

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

people like guessing Richie or Dean for Cara and i'm like ya'll missing the 3rd option

"it's the friends we made along the way"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ot3 ayo

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think I was the one who mentioned carbonated milk though

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

dfjalkgjaeoifuiodj

Deo101 [Millennium]

gjsdaghsagjkhgjkasg

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

OT3

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

YOU WERE

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Do it I dare you

Deo101 [Millennium]

shadow big brain w ot3

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I meaaaaaaaan

I have a love triangle

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

if they were compadable with each other

probably LMAO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But if they get together

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but lmAO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

its a metaphysical paradox

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

AAAAA

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But yeah I love the OT3 option

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

It would be actually interesting to see polyamory in a comic not about polyamory though

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

[puts down things to consider]

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Cara/Richie/dean

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like I want to see as a possibiltiy

but it's also errrrrr enriched with Viet stuff and i'm like bruh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I too, like Eightfish, dare you to do it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

how that would affect Cara's relationship with her family

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree Eightfish! I like the secret polyamory in a comic, like Marmalade Boy had a poly family and only when I was older, knew about it. I reread it, was like holy cow! It is a poly family(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

:000

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same with Dean's too since they're both tradtional vietnamese families to some extent

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(Apologies for taking forever to type this) "Maybe no one talks about Interesting Things in your scene because there is no Interesting Thing in your scene" used to be my big fear, to be honest. But I feel more confident after a recent epiphany, and if anyone else has that fear, please know that if YOU see Interesting Things in your story, that absolutely counts.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

aww thank you!! I need that reminder.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like man

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

It was a joke because deo's milk scene literally has someone being cut in half! But I do agree with you keii!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like I would like to, but I ain't poly and I don't want to mis represent those communties ya kno? riP

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

And there's bound to be someone who likes the same interesting things as you

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah keiiii I worry a lot that all my comments are about asses or something because they just dont care about anything else i'm doing

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Because Lavender Tea was on haitus since I thought my main lead boy was boring but I realized my friends do like simple characters which don't have to have complex pasts.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I'm always like "lol my comic is full of boring conversations" But then every once in a while I get someone who says they actually really like the boring conversations and that just makes me :)))(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

People like to hyperfixate on the weirdest things in stories

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) YES!!!!! Interesting Talky Scenes FTW

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Also I actually like the casual conversations you have eightfish

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Well like would you have as many reader if your comic was just ass panel ass panel ass panel? :P

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like sometimes I see people asking "how do I make a talky scene interesting" and I'm like... BUT TALKY SCENES ARE INTERESTING???

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

people can have the ot3 in their dreams and I'll recognize that but for me lmao I'm like i can't

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

It is a little challenging to make talking scene interesting visually

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

it is actually, like the way to keep it interesting I heard, is the angles, and not always focus on their face shots.

Deo101 [Millennium]

hands

give them an activity and focus on hands babey

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

OT3's, eh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Background props and angles is what I show

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

feet

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i guess suffering through complex angles in my panels do really pay off

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I wanted to challenge myself to draw silent panels and minimal dialogue.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I wonder if I sort of lucked out with HoK, in that the characters are often (though not always) locomoting while talking. That probably makes it easier to make it visually non-boring?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ladylazuli i see you eyeing that ot3

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

same, I like to draw background props, different angles.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh lord what u done shadow

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Beautiful things tuyetnhi what you talking about

Deo101 [Millennium]

ACTUALLY huge sidenote but you reminded me joichi, whats helped me get my writing way more to where I like it is every conversation being like "what if I took out all these speech bubbles?" and then actually going through and cutting most of them out

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what u MEAN DFJAKGJDKFdjl

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think the ship shadow is thinking of might be more ot7billion

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

fkaljfdghakldfj what

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

the more the merrier

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh god

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I have shipped OT3 before. I researched quite abit into Poly and started making a story on the side, just to understand the system and responsibilities. Just know that it's not perfect, but there's some differences(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, I looked into poly relationships to but lmao even with the research and asking first hands accounts, I don't think I can do it justice

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

... me with monagamous relationships tbh

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like it's hard working with a person in a monogamous relationship but also doing the same with 2 or more oh lord man

it's a lot of work for the persons who inciated and participating in such relationship struggles

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

it is still a big challenge. The good things I did hear for poly folks is, a strong sense of trust, and balancing the love between other partners. Also consent always(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve read testimonies of poly people and they stress that you need a LOT of communication

There’s a lot of trust and mutual respect needed to pull off poly

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

mhm

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'd argue you need that for any relationship!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Actually yeah you’re right! Every relationship needs that!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I may stick with monagamy couples most of the time. The only time I'll draw poly is a mention of couples, i feel I'm not the right person to write drama about poly relationships yet.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like thinking like for poly persons that working with 2 or more partners like

Deo101 [Millennium]

thats why I dont write drama about any relationship LMAO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have thought about writing a poly relationship once but er....I was thinking of doing villains in a toxic one

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

how does that play out like... since I think the possibility with being burnt out with communication with multiple partners

and the partners themselves like their relationships with the main poly person's partners too

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And showing how it deteriorates through time when one partner is abusive and it destroys the other two

Oh I’ve seen an abusive poly in real life before

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oof

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

One partner chose to have multiple male partners

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so I have rip

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But her boyfriend didn’t want that...and the female partner wouldn’t allow him to have other partners

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

also uh same but it was one guy with women as his multiple partners

the guy had a toxic masculinity mindset.

and i'm like to my friend like " Are you still going out with him?"

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

was he cheating on them though, or was it consented? Because infidelity is different from poly. My poly friends can't stress that enough(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it was consented but from what I see it that for to established relationship he wanted like the women to be him as his partner

and they agreed to it

but he also was meeting with other women other than his poly partners

so i'm like

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Okay that’s....not good. And I think that’s what needs to be addressed a lot I wonder if there are comics out there that talk about poly relationships

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

idk. like if it works with them, that's on them but i'm like idk how I feel if my partner will do that when I agreed to be only monogamous to him

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yes exactly. Yes there are and usually healthy poly relationship. I have to go find it, but not many comics.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so lmao it didn't sit well for me due to my morals I guess

but if he, and my friend, and his poly partners had it work, I guess more power to them?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Okay but if your partner decides to be poly without you, that's not being poly, that's cheating

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

No, eightfish the thing is that they agreed to him seeking out multiple partners while being monogamous

so it's more like an poly-open relationship thing?

at least that's in my understanding

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Not only that, banning your partner from seeking out others is hypocritical

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like his partners doesn't have an issue with it

that's the distinction

idk man i don't understand well, and even equiped with this knoweldge I rather read other poly folks works about the subject than attempting poly relationship dynamics myself lmao(edited)

that's my two cents on it lol

yeah

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

like for some poly people, they like the idea of having multiple partners, so that there's less pressure to be a perfect partner. Some compare it to; having more than one friend? what do you guys think though?(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

idk I just have friends

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I say that's some valid points. like they're varying degrees

Deo101 [Millennium]

im not poly so I cant comment

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

and the poly experience is varried so there's not right all to be all so yeah lmao.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yeah I think so too. TBH, I was feeling mixed when they compare romantic partners to having multiple friends?

but because I think the love for a partner is much deeper, but that's just me?(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I say it's valid if you feel that, but i know folks will beg to differ on other responses

I guess for my experience, friendship love can be deep as romantic love and i'm not nesssarly lacking if I don't have love from a romantic partner nor a platonic friend

it's varied, fluid, and if it works for your understanding... I don't see the harm

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

ah when you explain it, I can see why, I do see friendship can be pretty deep and emotional.(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think for me, I feel love very deeply for my friends and also my boyfriend. the differences are paper thin between the way love feels for me, it really comes down to "I chose him to be the one im kissin and stuff" cause its not even "spend the rest of my life with him only", because I fully want my close friends to be with me the rest of my life! I would love to live near or with them and see them every day, so its not that sort of foreverness thats different.

its not something that I'm self aware enough to be able to pinpoint.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah!

Deo101 [Millennium]

also this is VERY off topic I feel

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

... very tru

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

oops, it was interesting though. I've been questioning about the differences between romantic love and friendship(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Paper thin differences between deep friendship and strong romance are actually pretty relevant to HoK Though probably still off topic for this week's topic

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

I feel like I'm arriving four years later to the party, but if we're talking about character flaws then oh boy do I have some for you! In O Sarilho, we have: - Nikita's big inability to open up to people and having absolutely no tools to deal with the traumatic things that happen around him. It's so much better to keep it all in, ignore the people who are trying to help you and just let it all come out through anger; - Shizuka always says the wrong thing. Always. It's her natural talent. She doesn't mean them that way but now they're out and that's what counts; - Franquelim avoids conflict (with good reason) to an almost complacent point; - Dária is completely unaware of her privilege and tbh her own sheer luck!!; - Steffano has some problems with making his intentions clear and privilege too, in a way he also a bad time standing up to his father's antics and correlates his relationships with how useful they are to him (and vice-versa)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’m always curious about the creator’s process arriving at their stories and characters, including character flaws! I’m wondering how these flaws affect the character developments/dynamics and propel the story?

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

at least for me, I am trying to write a story about cooperation, so figures the major flaw my main character would have would be... being very uncooperative

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

(Osarilho is amazing and illustrates that perfectly )

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

()

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Oh nooooo I was typing a long reply and accidentally deleted it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

OHNO I wAS LOOKING FORWARD FOr IT

looking at @keii’ii (Heart of Keol) is typing... with such antecipation

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I should type in notepad and C&P but I never learn...

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

well, I think character flaws need to relate in some way to the major storyline, to the big events and themes of the story, but a lot of what I got comes from my interactions with other people, seeing what they think and also how I think and evolve and rationalize stuff... but obvs that all needs to be molded in a way that serves the narrative

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Anyway, I was starting to talk about my experience writing my previous comic, which was a conflict-driven story. What is the conflict (and/or theme), and why are these characters personally involved? What traits, goals, etc. of theirs keep them tied to this very unpleasant mess?

I didn't actually have to sit down for many days trying to figure that out. Once the biggest piece of the puzzle fell into place, the rest just followed pretty smoothly!

And the biggest piece of the puzzle was "what is it that I want to talk about with this story?"

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

yeah! that kinda tends to happen xd find the big piece and the others follow

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So I think that's sorta similar to what @Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho said about cooperation. In my case, it was "romance can be VERY DESTRUCTIVE"

(I had seen too many "finding Mr/Ms Right fixes all of your life's problems" stories at that point in my life)

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

romance doesn't put bread on the table

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So I had: - one extremely manipulative, baby-faced MC & his love interest (figuring out that he was manipulative was a part of the First Big Piece that fell into place) - one guy who actually found his True Love, married her, but still had serious problems. He had not even begun to resolve those problems when his wife unexpectedly died - another guy whose OTP was himself x his sister who did NOT want any of that (no assault happened, but that does not make this okay) They all had other aspects that I'd consider flaws, but you can see how those flaws are central to the story.

HoK, on the other hand, isn't really a 'there is something objectively terrible going on' kinda story. (I mean there is, but the story doesn't focus on that.) So I approach it from a different angle that I can't quite articulate/describe right now.

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

with terrible things it's easy to divide the characters in proactive/complacent axis

the "something terrible is happening, are you gonna do anything, or are you gonna let it happen?" but also the third option you are making the terrible thing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yus

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

some people transform into tigers.. to cope

carcarchu

i don't know if i've ever consciously thought about giving my characters flaws. all i think about is "this is the role they need to perform, and this is how they're going to do it"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, it's not like an MMO character creation process: "pick body. pick face. pick strengths. pick flaws." It's a lot more.... simpler and complex at the same time

Nutty (Court of Roses)

In Court of Roses, Merlow's main flaw is that he spends so much effort making others happy and comforted that he entirely neglects himself. He's had a traumatic experience in his past, and since it's still fresh and painful for him, instead of opening up about it, he drinks to numb the pain, if just for the night. Until the nightmares awaken him, of course. While he is an extremely social boy and thrives off the company of good friends, he is so, so afraid of them getting caught up in his troubles. So much so, that after an especially terrible nightmare, he attempted to run away into the woods to escape them "being hurt" in some way. He's constantly putting others before himself. Hopefully he'll learn through the other main bards (especially Nocturne) to take care of himself without guilt, or in a self-destructive manner.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

As I think of Eliushi's question; when I typically think of flaws, I imagine they need to effect the character's life or relationships with others. Some of my older teen or adult characters, I can naturally imagine their flaws, since they are closer to real people.

While my cinnamon roll-like OCs are a little harder to figure their flaws, it can't be too dark or out of character. I figure I'll figure it out as I carry on the story(edited)

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Cricket is mean, antisocial, and irresponsible. All of the rest of the pirates hate her because she went behind their backs and did something destructive that got them all in trouble. She also has a learning disability that she's really hard on herself about, calling herself "stupid" for not being able to read. She also has no problem with killing or stealing. Captain Harriet Hopper is more of an outwardly good person, with strong moral values and a general capability of commanding respect, but she has very low self confidence, second guessing her leadership decisions and often relying on reassurance and guidance from others rather than taking control of a situation.

The rest of the cast are pretty much just ruthlessly evil with only a few exceptions.

DanitheCarutor

Julian: - They're completely humorless, they do not laugh, they do not smile, everything is VERY serious business! When a joke doesn't fly over their head, they will not find any shred of humor in it. All jokes made by them are purely accidental. - Julian has no self-worth. Self-care is practically non-existent, they don't care about sleep, hygiene, eating and anything else that would help them feel even remotely better. Also, other than with Apollo, they will never stand up for themselves or give anyone lip unless it's to defend someone else. - They are an OCD level workaholic/cleanaholic, and will clean and keep themselves busy regardless of environment. While they did pick up good domestic responsibilities and work ethic at a young age, these positive habits have turned into excessively defensive ones. - They're a tiny ball of stress that second guesses themselves constantly. They are on edge nearly 24/7 about everything, especially when it comes to their partner and his instructions. - Very unambitious overall, they don't see themselves with a future so they don't try to have one. - Julian can have quite a temper and can be an absolute stubborn mule sometimes. They used to get in a lot of fights, especially when defending other kids, now they're like those grouchy old people who'll yell at you to get off their lawn. - They refuse help from others, seeing their own needs and presence as a burden they try to keep as low a profile as possible. I try to show these flaws through Julian's actions, interactions, the subjects they talk about, body language and appearance. Admittedly a lot of their personality hasn't shown through yet, currently in the comic their slew of mental health and domestic issues are overpowering who they are as a person, they're essentially living in survival mode. Later on their personality will start to show more, with their general flaws not being as heavily influenced by poor mental health and a bad environment.

DanitheCarutor

Apollo: - While growing up, his education wasn't taken very seriously by him or his family, in turn he slacked off a lot of school and now isn't the brightest bulb in the box. The lack of good education is also coupled with being very sheltered, he started out in private school then moved into homeschooling, so he never developed any significant life experiences. - He lacks basic survival and emotional comprehension skills. These skills were never encouraged or experienced during his upbringing, so he never developed them. - Apollo is very much a spoiled brat, he puts his wants first before considering other people. Although being someone with a general good nature, he tries to do his best with his close friends, he's just not very good at being considerate. - He is extremely gullible and overly trusting. If someone he considered a good friend told him you could create diamonds through your nose by snorting wasabi he would probably believe them. - Apollo doesn't have a whole lot of respect for himself, letting people use him and swindle him out of his money and possessions. His upbringing has a lot to do with letting people take advantage of him, but it also has a lot to do with his underlying guilt for past events, he just doesn't see himself as someone worth respecting. - He's a raging alcoholic due to the previous point. But he is very stubborn about it, insisting he does not have a problem, and that he can quit any time he wants to. - Apollo is a very lazy person overall, he refuses to learn basic skills, doesn't even take care of his personal and environmental cleanliness needs half the time. I try to show Apollo's flaws the same way I show Julian's, although with him there is a lot more focus on actions since he's a much more active person. His bad decisions are a major cause for some of the current predicaments in the comic, and have had a large roll in the story so far.(edited)

SPOILER

Tantz Aerine (Without Moonlight)

Fotis' flaw is that he lets emotion take over him and tends to jump to conclusions. He's very precocious and has had to grow up too fast (he's only 14 and has experiences not many adults have, or should have) but he's still young and inexperienced. He makes errors in judgment though he learns fast. When he thinks coolly he's more likely to make a pretty solid call. But when he's angered, or feels intense grief, or intense joy or desperation, he tends to make less informed choices. Unfortunately living in WWII and Nazi-occupied Greece makes for a very unforgiving environment for trial and error. It shows often in the comic when he talks about things with older people- people that fight with their own demons and challenges.

kayotics

Oh crap, I almost missed this topic. My main character has SO many flaws

Deo101 [Millennium]

and we love him for it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

it's not too late

list them!

kayotics

I must prepare myself

kayotics

Some classic Toivo flaws: - Serial romantic. He loves the idea of being in love, and is desperate for it. - Flighty. He's hard to keep around. He's afraid of commitment for various reasons, and coupled with the serial romanticism, leads to a lot of heartache for him. - Related to the last one: avoidant in general. If he can avoid talking about hard conversations, he will. - A lack of coping mechanisms. This comes out in a very real way in chapter 3 when it's revealed that all of the ghosts in his house are literal ghosts of relationships, made by him trying to avoid dealing with the breakups. - Impulsive and leaps before he thinks. He's the stupidest genius you'll ever meet. He's super smart, and pretty wise, but he's going to act first before he even thinks about it. (sometimes this is a positive thing, and leads to ingenuity) - Petulant. He's pretty childish a lot of the times. - Brash. This doesn't come out as much in the comic, but when he's dealing with new people or people he doesn't like, he can be quite rude.

I'm sure there's more but those are the big ones.

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