Serious Onions
I hadn’t put these on tumblr & it occurred to me that I probably should
o, my recent onion layers post has been met with unexpected great popularity - several ppl noted that they thought that, though it was obviously rather humoristic in style, it seemed to contain some on-point insights (it has been said that the best jokes contain a grain of truth), so, a few users asked if I might explain the thinking behind it.
General Remarks
As I previously detailed in a response, it didn't come from any particular source, but from an amalgamation of what id read in all the sources as well as all the personal accounts I'd read, what stuck out as noteworthy or what gets remarked upon as underappreciated/ misunderstood qualities by people of said types - and trying to think about which qualities are more 'fundamental' and which are reactions layered on top as defenses. The whole intrapsychic dynamics thing is a big part of what I find interesting to consider about typology, & independent of that I'd always been intrigued by the idea of "hidden depths" or less than obvious fundamental characteristics.
I was looking also at the process of getting to know a person, what more or less apparent characteristics are - the choice of 3 layers is relatively arbitrary - Loosely inspired by the saying that "Everyone has 3 faces, the public face, the close-up view of the inner circle & the inner stuff that maybe nobody sees", though I did not per se intend a 1:1 correspondence. ...that saying was probably thought up by a social having attachment core.
But more generally, without being too prescriptive, we can think of Layer 1 as what is the most obvious & apparent at first glance, Layer 2 as what comes forth when you get to know the person on an interactive-every-day kind of level or what is under the surface, and of Layer 3 as the basic disposition that all else build upon, the innermost self or some underlying truth – which for some ppl might be quite buried under a whole lot of defenses, for others is known only to themselves & for others yet might very much come forth in situations conducive to being open & shine through here & there.
For example, a 6 can look like a sour complainer or a hot mess, but when you look deeper, you might find that they're actually quite solid, dependable & competent, which you may overlook/ never get to know if you dismiss them based on the complainy exterior. But while some may seem 'obedient/dutyful', if you look further in (to the natural disposition that the individual themselves may have buried under sediments of defenses), what you actually find is this doubt/questioning. Furthermore, that's actually the core from which everything else logically follows.
though obviously here it's been given a blunt/humoristic slant with positive and negative moods/manifestations of the layers alternated for comedic effect - The inner core of the assertive types could show up as both pure and puerile for all three of them (in their own way), not like 3s its always pure and in 7s always childish, but there's some particularly that comes from their having the heart 'out of the loop'. I guess the 8 one sort of explicitly pointed as the "pure does not mean pure good" aspect of it.
Also, often the stereotype of the type is just based on the surface behavior but real people are 3D with depht and complicated inner mechanisms – in the end everyone’s an individual defined by more than just their types, but the deeper parts of a person also show some type-specific characteristics.
I'm breaking this into sections so it's not confusing to those with less patient attention spans.
Type 1
Layer 1: polish & politeness
Sort of the most obvious thing – they look put-together, nothing looks out of place about the outfit, no spelling errors, everything in its place.
Hence the common idea of them as neat freaks or perfectionists, not that either is always true – but ppl that have gone to panels have observed how if you see a bunch of them as a group, there can be ‚sparkly‘, ‚bright‘ or ‚brilliant‘ quality – especially contrasted with, say, the rigid/assertive 6s that can sometimes be confused with them, but present as more approachable.
This extends also to their behavior, as in being measured, having good manners etc. As competency cores they’d have a focus on ‚correct procedure‘ or ‚appropriate‘ responses, here in the realm of the concrete, of action and one’s spatial surroundings so that the results are rather visible.
A lot of the typical thinking activity is this quick binary sorting or evaluating – is this right or wrong, correct or incorrect, how does it compare? Is this the right amount of reaction? Does this match my inner image of how it should look? Not always solely moralistic but rather a kind of idealism applied to the concrete realm -
& that reflects on how they look, basically.
1w9s in particular may present a little stiff, awkward, overly formal or low on expressiveness, whereas the w2s can come across quite impassioned and zealous, a touch warmer and very well equipped to whip a crowd into a frenzy with fiery speeches or sermons full of rightheous indignation.
Layer 2: angery (meme spelling deliberate)
The well known catch is of course that there can be a lot of frustration underneath that.
There’s some individuals (especially if they’ve had a not so good childhood) where the anger can get quite diffuse & they’re not very aware of it;
Others very much realize that they’re motivated by a sense of frustration for what could be better that they’re trying to channel towards constructive ends.
How much that bleeds through depends on the individual, their level of self-awareness, how stressed they are & what situation they’re in, though they may underestimate how much of a critical, judgy or autocratic vibe there can be – a lot of em very much don’t want to come off that way.
With others, only their spouse or bestie might witness outright ranting or yelling.
There can be some contrast between the typically polite & measured surface presentation & the person blowing their top and then there’s of course all those often recited double life stories etc.
Those are of course the dramatic cases that make for dramatic anecdotes.
But on average you’re more likely to see rather measured responses - some don’t go beyond the odd nagging comment and hardly ever raise their voices (and might be uncomfortable with big displays from others, especially those of the w9 persuasion)
A lot of the time it’s nothing so dramatic, there’s just a bunch of only half-aknowledged pent-up frustration contributing the high blood pressure & tension headaches and the like.
Layer 3: sad idealist
Under the anger, tho, there’s sadness. On the macro scale, a grief over living in a fallen world full of injustice.
On the micro scale, a sadness about all that you’re denying yourself and how no one seems to be seeing your efforts.
As far as qualities that the 1s themselves tend to see as not getting appreciated enough, the EA studie named introspective qualities – that does track with my personal experience that a lot of Serious Philosophic Thoughts about the world can be found here, the world’s story state and uneccesary it could be if only everyone would care to fix it.
It’s worth noting that as the impulse types have sort of the least filtered perception, they take in all that’s happening on a direct, visceral level, so the revulsion or sadness at everything that’s ‚wrong‘ can be felt very strongly – emphatically state his some shameless behavior was ‚disgusting‘ or nearly losing his dinner over a crime scene photo -
And there’s also a real, sort of pure endearing sincerity of wanting to get it „right“, a real need to be doing one’s best, like that’s barely enough somehow.
Type 2
Layer 1: sugar spice & everything nice
The surface presentation is above all geared to be likeable and invite bonding – helpfulness is one aspect of that especially with sp-havers but it can get overemphasized. Other components depending on stacking may be approachability, charm, seductiveness, passion, flattery, schmoozing, even pointing out one’s special qualities, stressing exclusive qualities of the relationship or sympathy fishing for ‚legitimate‘ reasons like health problems or becrying the sorrow of a loved one etc.
as well as making sure to appear friendly, approachable, attractive, respectable etc.
Either way they feel they must actively make a good impression happen so they will actively offer to do stuff or even just go and do it spontaneously.
Recently I had a good chance to observe this in practice ’cause grandma is visiting and like, physically could not be stopped from cleaning mom’s house. If there is one dish in the sink she appears as if summoned by a magic circle even though she’s supposed to be the guest here. She’s also gone to pass on helpful reminders, made suggestions for how we should help mom & told all sorts of mildly melodramatic stories. I can understand that mom’s at times a bit annoyed with the nagging & the overreach, but, being perhaps able to look at this with more distance & less messy backstory, I’m making sure to say ‚Thank You‘ & give her hugs & stuff cause in the end she’s just a lonely old lady & wants to feel useful. I think I previously used to chalk it up to how she used to have an important job position & must be missing the special treatment & ability to contribute from that.
Layer 2: mother knows best
What distinguishes 2 from say, 9, is that its a far more proactive and somewhat ‚tough‘, it’s more hidden than with 5 or 8 but there’s still that, ‚I can handle it‘ thing. 2s are actually one of the types that can be pretty good in a crisis. (like 8, 1 or 6)
The whole ‚silk hiding steel‘ cliche might be invoked.
2 (like 1) tends to have the thinking functionality a bit out of the loop which has its downsides, like putting feelings over fact or acting without thinking, but that also means being low on doubt (not per se the relationship preoccupation kind of anxiety, they can have plenty of that, this is probably their big achilles heel) – one can act quickly & with certainty which, again, is great in crisis or extreme situations – hence why you often see 2s as charity workers, doulas, doctors-without-borders, hospice workers, homemakers etc. heavy responsibility emotionally taxing jobs that would emotionally crush others.
One might draw some parallel to 8 in that there is an aspect in getting a kick out of what would daunt others, but here not in the sense of risk, but rather obligation & responsibility and having other’s depend on you, having that sort of personal-relational power.
Of course this also has its downsides, as suggested by the funny monicker here there can be a tendency to hide behind the pleasant surface layer & not own one’s ambition, strenght or forcefulness. Or indeed the person may not know their own strenght or have low self-awareness of their own motives believing themselves to basically be the pleasant surface. (as 2 is somewhat blocked in the introspective function symbolized by the growth line to 4)
Though some know they’re tenacious & are proud of that – be it in a deserved or self-excusing way.
Also, even tough ppl have limits (another parallel to 8) – so one might either overextend themselves or snap and have some dramatic outburst because they feel overtaxed and unappreciated.
Layer 3: desperate hunger for love
What makes it a trap or a hell or a double bind is that on the one hand you rly strongly want to connect & have relationships, love & be loved etc. but on the other there’s a big implicit taboo of like outright showing that in some ways – cause that’s the avoidance, you can’t appear needy, that’s not gonna be considered very loveable or popular, or so your superego tells you.
& certainly our current capitalistic, competitive, every-man-for-himself culture that treats feelings as a gotcha doesn’t help, often when you hear discourse about relationships you could get the idea that there’s some unspoken assumption that whoever cares more somehow loses. Lots of dismissive talk about „silly lovesick girls“ and „needy bitches“, though, its not like more emotional men or dudes who are distressed about relationship misfortune don’t get viciously mocked.
That’s sort of the trap or tragedy that ppl get „tricky“ in response to rejection or fear of reection but then the trickyness brings about the rejection. But I imagine that there’s a special grief in realizing that few ppl want the same degree of interaction as you do & that some degree of holding back & censoring is needed for taking part in polite society. That can put you in a tricky position that can be a fertile ground for guilt feelings (much like realizing that you’re way less interested than most others can)
It’s worth remembering that ultimately these ppl just want to love & be loved (& some of ppl’s apprehension can be related to their own unease toward that concept or their own knotty relationships with want or need) – which isn’t to say that anyone should be put up with extremely unpleasant specimens, but even in those cases its kind of a tragedy when you look at it from a wider perspective. So, uh, maybe send your quarrelsome grandmas the occasional heart emoji or mother’s day text I guess.
Type 3
Layer 1: flashy facade
You know the drill: If they were in a book there would be a little „TM“ somewhere, and if they were in an animated medium, their teeth would sparkle when they grin. This is the part that’d described to death in all the descriptions out there so you can probably picture what is meant.
Glossy, flashy, bright and dazzling, megawatt smile, optimistic Can Do attitude, , versatility, constant improvement, efortlessness, „star“ presentation…
Though it must be appreciated that the degree also values by the individual, 378 is oing to be much flashier than, say, 359. Some what to be respected & known more for their „output“
Layer 2: efficient robot
Cordon describes this kind of interestingly – ovsly being a 6 and also a therapist he’d have observe ppl closely, and he described how you might be talking with a smiley, expressive person but also get the sense that somewhere behind that there’s someone else, carefully watching.
He describes that 3s often have an affinity to or identify themselves with high performance machines, and indeed that’s something you can confirm by looking at the works of some prominent musicians for example.
There’s that layer of ‚calculation‘ or ‚instrumentalism‘ – a split between the ‚social‘ and ‚impulse based‘ emotions in which the latter get tuned out to not interfere with the performance of the former. The attachment typical split-attention plays out by having the vigilant perception of ppl’s reactions and fine-tuned performing of social emotions existing in parallel with the planful action coming from the planning mind & the impulses.
Which unintentionally sounds like im describing a supervillain, but it can actually be an amazing & unique ability to handle social situations through a problem-solving lens, which can allow one to be efficient and masterful, and, in more, enlightened individuals constructive & persuasive in a way you couldn’t pull off if you let your own reactions feature into it unfiltered.
An example is how the protagonist of Kare Kano (probably 3w4) responds when she gets snubbed by her classmates. I could imagine stewing in your hurt and trying to find some meaning in it (which is what I would have done), I could imagine how someone might grovel or people-please in order to be liked, but the third approach that the protag actually uses would never have occurred to me:
It’s not that she wasn’t hurt by the experience or feeling insecure about it, but instead of dwelling on how she’s hurt or having a grudge against the classmates, she problem solves: She finds herself new friends who help her identify & publicly call out the ringleader behind the snubbing, and therefore skillfully maneuvers the class into siding with her. She even extends an olive branch to the former ringleader.
I am also a competency type so I might apply methodology to many areas of life where most ppl wouldn’t, but I would never thought of approaching this sort of social situation through such a lens, I thought that was pretty impressive of Miss Yukino.
Though, on the other side of that, there can be the temptation for some 3s to put off dealing with the fee fees for so long they just never get around to it, doing nothing but work work work , disregarding their human limitations etc.
Layer 3: golden retriever
In some ppl it’s very buried under a lifetime’s worth of need-nobody-tough-guy-act, thick calluses and/or believing one’s own hype, but somewhere at the beginning before it all went sideways they started out as some little kiddo with a pure & sincere desire to win love, approval and headpats, to hear ppl say that they’re proud of them, that they’re seen & valued, that they did good - which you might recognize as ultimately 100% purely feelings-based motivations.
Of course at some point the individual might have decided to settle for glory & hype because real love & approval weren’t forthcoming, or because of the vulnerability entailed in looking for the real deal. People can just not give you the approval, or they can laugh at you & call you names instead - & the disaproval stings if you easily attach to other’s perceptions of you.
So there’s like, just hype where it doesn’t matter where it comes from divorced from properly bonded relationships, and there’s nifty status symbols you can slap your hand on. You’ll show them. They’ll see when you’re swiming in money and having what all the ppl on TV have... and probably just, numb out whatever bits clamor for like proper connection until it no longer feels safe to drop the mask. Like this is a counterdependent mechanism. Like the rebel 6s or those more loner-y 9s.
Judging by the stereotypes you’d think the tough badass ellbow feelings-are-for-losers presentation is the default. Or well, it’s not like trying to be tough is always dysfunctional or overcompensation, the world is a tough cutthroaty place. Nothing wrong with being a badass as long as you’re not like exceedingly ruthless toward others.
But this doesn’t prepare you for pulling up some youtube video or podcast and you get these like really sincere expressive ppl that are obviously all heart & capable of a very ‚pure‘ sort of mirroring or connecting. And yes they’re all organized, yes they care about being popular, they like attention & clearly have, like, the charming, polishing and crowd-working skills of someone who’s like a moderator, but they also basically just want you to like you & think they’re cool no knots or trickery or underhanded hidden agendas.
That’s also why no one ever types Naruto right though he constantly proclaims that his goal is to embody the cultural ideal of his hometown so people will approve of him. that, and he’s sp blind. And a feeler. F types can often be the less ‚onion layered‘ version of a given type, presumably cause being poked in the lower functions hurts prompting the development of more guards. Though you can get some pretty guarded feelers if you subject them to enough bad parenting…
Though overall most 3s are probably still generally the quintessential „peach“ type person (defined in opposition to a „coconut“ where there is a hard shell/initial hurdle to get to the juicy center) – fairly easy to build a rapport with & become surface level friends with, but then there’s that inner core that takes a special level of trust to get to.
Type 4
Layer 1: distinguished sophistication
On average, the surface presentation tends to be distinguished, sophisticated, deliberate and cultivated – as this is a withdrawn type they won’t always necessarily loudly declare themselves & might well often feel that it’s not worth bothering cause ppl might not get it anyway (especially the w5 specimens), but if they do speak/ get involved, they will make their positions, likes & dislikes fairly clear. This can sometimes frustrate or confuse attachment types whose MO is to first find some common ground & then buil on that / see how good the fit is, & can take the pointing out of differences as a rejection or judgement.
Generally withdrawn types don’t expect others to agree with them (indeed if too many ppl agreed the 4 might be some degree of embarassed) but it’s just like – I say my opinion, you say yours, if they differ then they just do.
Granted, seeing as tastes & likes & feelings are Serious Business(TM) they may well lambast ppl who listen to the wrong kind of music (because of the culture & associations that that music is seen as a symbol for) – This is seen as having „strong values“ & if as a result you can’t get along with everyone, that’s just how it is. (though they may of course have too high standards, jump to conclusions on those associations or lament that they can’t find anyone who „gets it“) – but more mature ones are more willing to live & let live.
Even so, this is a marked difference to some of the types that are, at least on paper, easily confused, such as 9, 2 or 6 – those are all types that have some compulsion to appear approachable, personable and/or avoid antagonizing others.
Like 8s for example they’re not one of the types that are automatically nice but don’t want to appear easily impressed (if their approval were too easily given it wouldn’t mean much) – though to ppl with reactive components this may read as a pleasant lack of fake niceness.
Lately it’s been en vogue to describe 4s as ‚elitist‘ to like make them sound unappealing to common idealization-based mistypes but that’s not really neutrality either – can some 4s be superior snobs?
Yes. But not everyone. What they definitely are is specific, like idealizing a very particular kind of music or aesthetic , sometimes to the point of painting themselves into a corner. But „I like this particular thing & everything else isn’t my cup of tea“ doesn’t have to mean putting down others you can just differentiate yourself naturally.
And there is value in making very specific or particular or self-indulgent stuff that otherwise wouldn’t be created for fear that it wouldn’t have broad appeal - since they’re just, doing it for themselves with themselves as the intened audience.
The principle to understand here is like basically – „If no one will see me, I’ll see myself“, imbuing one’s actions with symbolic meaning to create a sense of significance.
It’s also worth noting that 4 is like, intellectual center secondary & wedged in between two competency wings so, some individuals can be fairly proud of their intellect & even brag of it in ways that 2, 9 or 6 probably wouldn’t. Which can be overdone to a point of obnoxiousness especially if there’s some defensive arrogance going on, but also lead to a sense of refined craftsmanship especially if the line to 1 is somewhat active.
In the same vein, individuals can also have a thing about self-improvement and self-betterment or take a ‚shamanic guide‘ kind of role.
Though immature individuals can also not think very much at all & resist all advice or improvement suggestions due to seeing their problems as unsolveable and any fixing attempt as unauthentic.
Layer 2: pure spite
So you meet your fave artist that had this consummate specific aesthetic, and turns out everyone who knew them up-close describes them as drama-prone, vicious, negative, liable to making incendiary statements, self-absorbed and just guaranteed to make the purity police get its panties in a twist.
What’s going on here?
On the most basic level, there is simply a lack of negativity filter, which doesn’t just concern relatively ‚pretty‘ negativity like sadness, but also making a big deal of personal poblems or expressing srong dislike, disdain, disgust, loathing or hate.
Hate is often seen as something that should always be got rid off, but, though there are constructive and non constructive outlets like for all emotions, it is not the only emotion that’s somehow all bad and doesn’t have a function. Some things arguably should be abhorred. Grudges keep you from burning yourself on the same hot stove twice.
Disgust is, at its most basic, the drive to avoid the contamination of the individual: „That’s NOT me. That’s disgusting. I don’t want to be like that“ – disgust can motivate you to be moral, or at least to hold on to what’s important spite can make you persevere when nothing else will sustain you.
Hence why a 4 component is often correlated with vindictiveness or revenge fantasies.
Obviously it can be overdone as like reckless dumb spats or personal vendettas that only lead to more scorched earth, but like, the functionality is there for a reason.
Nonetheless, core 4s can be very salty ppl, especially if they feel permanently wronged/slighted/ shortchanged or spend too much time simmering over how much easier others have it without then moving to the next step of action or acting in impulsive rather than constructive ways.
Layer 3: grief & longing
Most ppl eventually just accept that the world isn’t fair and that what is lost is lost – we might tough it out, suck it up, positively reframe it, tell ourselves it doesn’t matter etc. Sometimes that might be what you have to do to survive; Though sometimes there can also be a tad of self-betrayal there.
Either way, we forget the lost paradise – and the 4s kinda don’t. Whatever hurt they went through, they want to honor it and give it its proper space. It’s not necessarily that 4s per se suffer more or less than other ppl, it’s that their relationship to it is different-
And like, let’s acknowledge that there is a truth and a wisdom in this, or at least a fragment of the whole picture: Bad stuff is BAD. What hurts HURTS. What’s gone is GONE and never coming back.
You might say that it’s pointless to be hung up on that and that it cannot be changed anyways and, like, that’s the other types having their own slice of reality & fragment of the truth, but, what’s also true is… it was still bad. It still hurts. It still mattered.
You know how it is sometimes said that grief is the pendulum swing of love, or love with nowhere left to go? It’s the evidence that the love was there. That what was lost was worth something.
And there’s like, a sincerity and idealism in that, a very genuine thing (for all that it can, like all things, be overemphasized), despite the outer layers of drama and pretesion.
Some descriptions focus only on like, the sadness without the context or structure or particularity (after all everyone can be sad & for some its a longer journey to realize their sadness matters) whereas others paint only the uglyness and drama without connecting it to where it really comes from and neither of those is a complete picture.
Type 5
Layer 1: [*televison static*]
Which is, uh, obviously a sort of humorous play on the way that these are often considered as being somewhat hard to read, low on expressiveness, unforthcoming in disclosure, clumsy in social niceties etc.
Sometimes it is very much intentional to restrict an interaction to ‚strictly business‘ of course – can’t be friends with all the billions on the planet especially if you’re super duper introverted and also busy with stuff.
But i also think Cordon was onto something with there being a quick tendency towards freeze responses (in the same way that 6s tend toward vigilance & confronting the problem, and 7s towards running away/avoiding it) and if you couple that with the whole tendency to see „the outer world“ as the place that is potentially suspect, well…
In a sense its basically just means having an especially pronounced version of the whole „introvert needs a while to ‚thaw up‘ and get comfortable“ phenomenon.
There’s also the strong content focus, which can come off impersonal to some – or straight up rude or callous if the individual fails to consider how things might be taken on other possible communication channels (like a personal-relational lens or lizardbrainy power dynamics) – not considering these can also cause one to come off less convincing, as in aimless rambling or having little sense of presence.
It’s not always about hiding or diversion, telling you about some stuff that they personally find interesting talking more than strictly necessary.
I’m not saying you have to put up with annoying aimless rambling monologues, but you might want to be like, „No thank you“ rather than „Shut up you showoff/weirdo/nerd, no one wants to hear this“
There can be uncertainty as to how to interact at all when there isn’t a clearly defined activity or topic.
But you do read accounts where the individual in question ostensibly took responsibility & made sure to explicitly clarify their intentions and feelings verbally, but that still got taken as ‚mixed signals‘, when the person described just seems to be… the normal amount of nervous for a young person on a date, for example. You can only do so much about what kind of automatic fear response you have.
As these are usually private & reclusive, the number of those who get to look beyond the first layer is usually fairly small; Only their lover, bestie or immediate family members maybe. For some the number might be outright zero, unless they’re some sort of artist or wrote their inner thoughts & feelings down in some kind of journal. And even then there’s a higher than usual percentage of those whose materials were only published after their death.
And many very much prefer it this way, though you sometimes hear from the social doms that they are somewhat bothered by this, in that they want to be or subjectively feel connected (like all the other social doms, one supposes) but feel frustrated that they can’t, even if they’re quite capable of putting up an engaging, likeable front. You sometimes read the specific phrasing of the person wishing someone would see through it and move the conversation beyond the script.
Though, not having social, I can’t personally relate to that at all and the prospect of people assuming that I secretly want them to do anything seems threatening if anything. Though I share the perception that a lot of exchanges are really just ppl following scripts, but, for me that’s a reason to dispense with such ‚zero content‘ exchanges completely.
Layer 2: obsessive doomer
What you usually see reported when ppl get to know one of these up close is „Wow this person is super negative“ and „wow this person is a lot more blunt/direct than I thought they would be, weren’t they, like, shy?“ (Contrary to popular belief, not all introverts are shy.)
Besides getting them to move in with you, you might also seesomeone act a great deal less filtered in an anonymous setting or something like a short vacation where they have the option of never seeing anyone involved ever again.
I also recall this post of someone who couldn’t quite make sense of that one reticent sort of unreadable friend cause he’d only joi in their antics so often, wasn’t super expressive etc. though he had outright told them that their friend group is very important to him, „unless he’s drunk and then he’s suddenly very open about everything“ and I thought to myself, ‚Ah. That‘s probably the closest they get to seeing what he’s like on his own’.
If you look at a list of famous artists, writers or musicians or whatever their material doesn’t tend to be known for being like blank prosaic & precise or whatever but for being dark and intense and sometimes a bit provocative, or at least kinda philosophic.
Though, if you look at some of the earlier literature, like Naranjo, Palmer, Maitri and so on the defining characeristics rather seem to be „kind of ineffectual“ and „throws the towel rather easily & keeps coming up with reasons why its pointless to do anything“
So, what do these ppl do all the time by themselves?
One poster here wrote something like„5s aren’t necessarily all smart, we’re really just obsessive“, and I think they pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I mean, some were probably smart – Charles Darwin maybe? If there was only a single smart one it was probably Paul Dirac. But your friendly neighborhood specimen is probably not that, any more than every 9 is Einstein or that any 7 is Feynman....
You could get a pretty solid understanding of stuff too if you were reading about it or practicing it all the time, and probably thinking about it when you aren’t – instead of say, socializing or doing useful practical tasks.
And there’s absolutely no guarantee at all that you’ll get obsessed with something that makes money or that others think is impressive.
Though, if there’s one good trait or upside to all this mess it’s probably the way that you can just keep at it wether anyone cares or not, theres no getting discouraged from lack of praise or response, if anything one works best if nobody knows about it until the thing is nearing completion.
It is kind of an interesting paradoxon that you have this relentless focus on the one hand and this struggle or resistance to do what actually needs to be done on the other.
I can appreciate its interestingness, even if its the bane of my personal existence…
Layer 3: touchy bundle of nerves
Like most iterations of the ‚gooey center‘ trope this can get quite buried in some individuals especially if their parents messed up – You even do get some unpleasant individuals with poor self-awareness who then maintain that everyone else must be clingy, irrational and overdramatic because they don’t realize that they’re the sensitive ones. The Protagonist of the classical German novel ‚Homo Faber‘ is a prime example. A nasty stuckup sexist piece of work, but a strangely relatable one in some ways, to the point where I wonder about Max Frisch himself, though, cannot have shared his protagonists’ disdain for all things poetic seeing as he was a famous author & playwright.
Others may simply have misplaced the box with the feelings sometimes in the 70s and have no idea where they put it.
But lots of ppl are well aware of what’s going on inwardly, level of outward expressiveness onwithstanding, there’s a reason 4 is a common mistype. The anecdotal example people in the enneagram literature have to be commended for their „fun“ metaphors. I wonder sometimes whatever became of the „its like running through a field of cacti with no skin“ guy. That book was old, so he might no longer be with us.
In the end the behavior may not differ than much either way because, you know how some computer applications show you annoying alerts so often that eventually you just completely ignore them?
In a sense the defense mechanisms do serve you well, if you compare to some non-5 high sensitivity ppl. There are some shared qualities like being easily tired by drama situations, being easily startled, low pain tolerance etc. but generally „cant take violent movies“, „easily swept up in & affected by other’s feelings“ are not problems I have.
(though of course, more over/ less „buffered“ sensitive types have their own kinds of strenghts that we don’t, & being Like This also produces its own secondary problems)
Type 6
It’s been brought to my attention that take here skewed a bit toward 6w5; For 6w7, a bit more chill but a bit less self-reliance, something like a cross between this and the 7 onion. Still I’ll try to keep it generally applicable as much as it can be given the complexities of these guys.
Layer 1: commander contrarian
The range of presentations is great here, depending greatly on the environment and such values as the individual has considered to be worthwhile guideposts, yet if one were to to distill them all down to some commonality, it would be some degree of ‚hot mess‘ or ‚relatable everyman‘ flavor -
if not to connect with others or get their help, then at least to stay under the radar and avoid putting a target on your back.
There is also a tendency to be the one who considers how it might all blow up, whether it is expressed more as worry than as scepticism.
They might be complaining about you not following the rules, or complaining about the rules themselves, but they’re probably the ones doing the complaining or going against the grain of the prevailing opinion – sometimes, particularly for 6w7, it can even mean taking the positive side when the prevailing opinions are negative.
They’re doing us all a solid with this, as it has been shown that the presence of even one dissenting opinion greatly lowers the strenght of groupthink effects, like ppl agreeing with a crowd of actors that the longer of two lines is actually the shorter.
Layer 2: dutiful soldier
When you look closer, though, you see that though they might be complainers, they’re not quitters.
6s may often overreport the level of mess in their lives, have difficulty internalizing past sucesses (since, theoretically, it could still go wrong this time) and frequently exist in a state of ‚AAAAA‘, this is ultimately a type that has the potential to be quite perseverant, hardworking, resillient, dedicated and, at their best, even heroic.
And being all this while also having that ‚humble‘ presentation on top can also make you likeable & engaging.
This can be taken too war of course in sticking or being loyal to a cause that’s not worth it though it’s worth noting that they’ll be loyal to ppl that they agree with and that seem worth it, & once soundly dissapointed they might swiftly swing around to the opposite.
Layer 3: trusts no one including self
Zoom in further, though, and you’ll see that at the bottom is this mode of perception where everything can change as easily as thinking of a different possibility – the search for certainty, for something worth supporting or believing in, & to be prepared & steadfast oneself is precisely spurned on by one’s propensity to doubt and second-guessing one’s actions, whether one pursues those doubts, looks for something to allay them, or perhaps both at the same time (such as aligning with ppl but also testing them)
Something in there is always like „but how do you know? Can you really be sure?“ Wether or not the person’s conscious of it it’s consistently fueling their actions even if those consist of stronger clinging to a supposed solution or more fierce resisting against those who tell them they’re wrong.
The opposite response of always taking any doubt seriously isn’t per se better than denyoning it though if it leads to being overly suspicious.
Of course some individuals may respond in a different way depending on each particular thing they’re doubtful about few always have the same response all the time.
On some level it’s a search for a deeper truth that, when one is in alignment with it, gives a solid foundation to ones’ decisions (which can look very different depending on the individual, it could be a personal truth or a way of understanding the world. )
Type 7
Layer 1: happy happy joy joy
There is the assumption that one must have a pleasant, positive demeanor, so this is what such a individual might tend to be remembered for, though the quality of that rememberance can vary – maybe ppl liked the irreverent sense of humor, or how they brought some light and joy into other people’s lives, or that they were cool & fun to hang around with… or they might be thought of as sort of silly and irresponsible. Lots of variables regarding both the 7 themself as well as the eye of the beholder.
The rainbow candy-coating serves as variety or purposes. First the mention might want to keep things light for their own peace of mind, also humor erodes hierarchies and fun cool interesting lighthearted & stimulating atmosphere attracts people to you & also helps you charm them so they let you get away with whatever you please.
But there’s also a darker side to it like assumptions that they can’t depend on anyone to take care of them, and that they’ll be ditched if they become boring, a bother or a drag and that others won’t want the if they don’t bring the entertainment (& always bringing it can lead your friend group to self-select for ppl who are only in it for the entertainment value.) & that they can’t show their sadness to others which is like… not so fun.
It doesn’t help that their default fear response is to „look for a way out“ often by thinking up a solution or trying to reframe or explain away the problem so that what gets taken as not taking the problem seriously might actually be a direct sign of distress.
Layer 2: bucketloads of raw intelligence & creativity
However, despite the above phenomena, its important to stress that its not clowns all the way down.
Sometimes it’s like they kinda won the jackpot when ppl were handing out the talents:
- clever
- creative
- dynamic/ action oriented / energetic
- resourceful
- not too bogged down by inhibitions or ppl’s opinions
- confident
- eloquent
- charismatic
Most people can only pick like 2 of these at once.
Were it not for their twin weaknesses of Sadness and Shiny Objects, 7s would’ve taken over the world. Its like the universe had to nerf them.
See mother nature, this is how you properly engineer a mental dominant hexad type. You gotta add in some Extroversion as a required secondary power to make it actually sustainable to be running the most resource-intense types of thinking processes 24/7.
Of course not every individual reaches the fullness of that potential, some bail when it gets difficult or get overconfident & fancy themselves instant experts and then they can get kinda dilettantish, shallow & mostly hot air etc.
But imho 7s are underrated & one of those types that there’s hardly any content about, for everyone that’s like an irresponsible absentee parent or a vapid attention whore there’s like another who’s like really cool, badass & generous, and then there’s the ones that are just stone cold brilliant.
Layer 3: sad manchild
Where there is light, however, there is shadow.
First, there’s the infamous Inner Jail(TM) or like the tendency to avoid sadness & worry until it suddenly catches up with you all at once cause you stopped moving for 5 minutes.
There’s a reason 7 musicians are either like „Wild eclectic creativity explosion!!“ or Miserable Wail Of Sadness, sometimes going from one to the other depending on how the artists’s life is going or that they’re sometimes these ppl who kill themselves of all sudden though everything seemed fine & dandy even to their inner circle.
The other side of this, which is maybe more frustrating to others & often quite the contrast to the person’s apparent brilliance, is like, the petulance & childishness & refusal to take responsibility cause they have to get what they want and they must think of themselves in a good light.
A point to understand is that there can be a real frantic urgency to it, like, contemplating the opposite can seem next to unbearable. Unlike their direct neighbors 6 and 8, they’re not really that tought. They avoid the bad stuff cause they actually struggle to handle it, though they may also be overestimate how bad its gonna be. Hence also the tendency sometimes to wallpaper over untennable situations that they very much have the skills & resources to get out of – they don’t get over the hill cause they must be okay.
Though while I stressed the negative side of this quality for the purposes of having a punchline, is worth noting that there is also a positive pendant to this, like having a genuine childlike wonder, curiosity and enthusiasm about the world that is retained well into later stages of life & a far lower probability toward comformism or boringness. If you see like a middle aged person that’s still wearing colorful clothes, is somewhat up to speed with popculture or tech and talks to younger ppl without expecting deferrence, thats often a 7.
Type 8
Layer 1: strategic tactician
So, not everyone is actually going to have this layer since its presence implies the realization at some point that purposeful strategic action and wisdom are more useful than just yelling & banging on the table – You can get the very same thing that you want with a lot less collateral damage.
The thinking facilities need to be at least partially ‚online‘
The ‚thickness‘ also varies correspondingly to the extent that planning, understanding & foresight is valued as its own „input channel“ vs just a way to make X happen. (though „doing stuff“ is and always will be the main focus)
Its presence is indicated by realizations like „sometimes staying calm/acting unfazed actually gets you more influence“, or knowing the value of diplomacy at least on a purely pragmatic level.
Strategy is informed by sharp instincts and impulses given a broader repertoire of „how“ -
The result is often quite formidable & masterful.
So, am I saying the young & dumb are one layer short? Well the choice of 3 layers was always an abstraction for the sake of analogy…
8 has as much depht & interestingness & juicy inner mechanics as any other type but, there was this one book or website I read that had like couples advice & the section for 6s considering to date an 8 said something like „don’t overthink it, they probably mean exactly what they said, they’re straightforward ceatures“
Which needs to be said, as 6 pretty much exists as a towering edifice of precariously balanced forces – but like, not overcomplicating here is meant like in the strict sense of „not adding complications that aren’t necessary“
Layer 2: animal with clothes on
Even the actual 8s themselves report a certain affinity with wild animals, in all the good, bad and simply neutral ways.
Some report that they kind of felt ‚grown‘ already at an early age since they always could think of what to do – there was this excellent essay post a while back about how having less filtering/ being more focussed on the concrete means you feel everything that happens very fully & so you have strong immediate reactions in response, & this creates a feedback loop where eventually your quick judgements/ immediate impressions get strong, developed & sophisticated.*
For 8 in particular these quick judgements rely on paying attention to your basic instincts and also kinesthetic/sensorimotor learning.
I’ve read some individuals describe it as basically being connected to the millions of years’ worth of accumulated information that went into making our instincts & sort of sensorimotor processing the way it is -
If nothing else evolution’s had a long time to optimize that lizard brain so if you want to make quick and cheap split-second decisions.
So you get ppl that can react fast & efficient in a crisis, which probably contributes to the tendency towards cognitive (not necessarily social) extroversion & stimulation seeking (thats what being an extrovert basically is – your base activity level is fairly low so need more external stimulation to get to a comfortable point. )
Of course to onlookers this can simply read as uncontrolled, intimidating or fierce.
* It strikes me that a reverse corollary of this probably explains why 4s and 5s often report the experiece that they „didn’t get the manual“ or that „everyone else already seemed to know how everything works“. Having a strongly filtered/interpreted mode of perception & not using the impulse center much, you don’t build up these automatic responses/snap judgements, so it seems that everyone else ‚already knew what to do‘.
So it can feel like you still don’t know how anything on this weird planet works well into advanced adulthood, as reverse of the 8s and 1s quicker self-reliance.
So after a quarter century, the mystery has finally been solved: The other kids at the nursery didn’t actually know what they were doing any more than I did, of course not, how could they have? We were all babies. They didn’t need to know „how“ cause they were going on friggin autocomplete, which I simply had no talent at.
It’s really bittersweet to have a reason 25 years too late.
Would fit right in with the lyrics of „isnt it ironic“.
I kinda wish I could go back and tell 3 year old me, but she probably wouldn’t have understood.
Do you hear this, Inner Toddler? I did it. I got the answer….
I wonder if there’s some equivalent in this in 1s and 2s as well as 7s and 8s.
Layer 3: pre-civilized grade schooler
Sometimes you hear that whole Big Teddy Bear cliche & that’s like, half the story, missing some nuances. Sometimes it describes the situation well enough but other times its inadequate.
Cause our culture likes to use children as images of perfect idealized innocence & harmless but actual kids are rather more a primal undivided state before the introduction of mental labels, containing both the potential for extremely genuine, unaffected compassion and careless malice of ripping the wings off an insect in play without realizing the full impact of what one is doing.
I think playing children can also be thought of as a symbol of wilderness and chaos – when there are regarded as neutral things that simply are, in all their complicated interestingness.
The Inner Toddler is also where the feeling of being wronged & wanting to get your will comes from, a blunt, pure and basic thing, even if that input then gets filtered through razorsharp instincts and sophisticated thought. You got the heart there off in its own little compartment and held back by the „blockage“ represented by the line to 2, so that it is in a sense kept safe where the world can’t get at it. But our feelings are still often where our motivations come from, especially long-term motivations that go beyond the basic „grab sandwich“ or „assert dominance“ (which arguably doesnt require that much thinking or feeling.)
Type 9
Layer 1: generic niceness
That’s sort of a kinda mean way to put it for comedic effect, but what it refers to is how the first contact surface level presentation tends to skew vaguely friendly but inoffensive, with some reluctance to state opinions, show distinguishing traits, state wants etc. and a general tendency to be accomodating or just quiet, disinterested & not very attention grabbing etc.
Generally you need to establish some trust first before the edges and corners are allowed to come out, with the 9w8s having on average a lower threshold for this.
Though, generally speaking with an average person you will eventually let their interesting traits come out & get more animated once they get comfortable, at least if they like you (though they may still put off avoid particularly big & serious confrontations or revealing things they’re insecure about)
Sometimes you see the idea floating around that to be a 9 you must be a doormat all the time, that’s not really correct. If anything that would probably indicate low self esteem, bad parenting or a lack of good quality friends if someone doesn’t ever feel comfortable saying their opinions & stuff.
Layer 2: pent-up frustration
Ah, but even if you try to be nice & accomidating all the time, sometimes you’re gonna want to do stuff, and sometimes you are not going to like what happens – especially if you’re an impulse type.
It’s only natural that never getting you way, always holding it in for the sake of avoiding drama & always giving up on what you want is going to create some degree of frustration, resentment or even anger. Humans arent doormats, being pushed around naturally & correctly makes you angry.
Blowing your top, however, would create even more of that drama you wanted to avoid in the first place, so that’s not an option either…
So there can be a diffusing of impulse or a numbing out of what would constitutionally have been a fairly receptive configuration. Sometimes with the sideffect that you also knock out the like, useful impulses to do stuff that goes beyond ingrained habit.
Some 9s, especially 9w1s will tell you that they rarely ever get angry, but it typically still takes some effort to stay that way, eg one might get distracted absent minded or forgetful when there i a lot of stressful stuff going on cause a lot of energy is devoted to NotGettingMad.exe
These are the ppl who can be sometimes at risk of not standing up for themselves.
Others are quite aware of it & brimming with inward frustration that might come out as snark, stubbornness or passive-aggression
Though its not just frustration alone - giving up on stuff/ feeling that following your dreams is impossible or that you’re not worth it, can also create sadness & stressing about conflict sources or general unadressed life problems can also make you anxious.
Often leading to the frequently reported phenomenon that 9s are often not nearly as chill or happy as they might outwardly appear, especially if they’re more introspective mbtis.
But even the ones with less inner awareness of their feelings & stuff can still have all of this going under the surface.
Layer 3: dreamy philosopher (interesting!)
...and then, who would have thunk, you find out that your pleasant but unassuming new friend actually has some pretty deep thoughts & feelings in their head, a rich, vivid imagination, a variety of well-developed interesting hobbies (though often more of the chill, domestinc kind), & just all manner of hidden dephts. Incluing sometimes picking a whole lot of stuff about their surroundings or the dynamics between the people there that others would miss since they would be more focussed on the parts that are relevant to their own interests.
As 9 is the ‚pure‘ impulse type, there’s a fair degree of energy, groundedness, vitality & ‚natural wisdom‘ to be unlocked here (that comes out in a less ‚colored‘ way than for 1 or 8) – or rather, one 9 described it to me that they get more animated & on the more that the environment is one of comfortable ‚flow‘, which correlates with my observations – like a normally super shy, closed off individual could suddenly be very funny & even cheeky when their family members are just vibin’ on the sofa or playing random party games.
In any case, for a type that characteristically tends to worry about being boring ironically they probably lower than average chance of boringness.
Are there some genuinely boring 9s? Probably, there’s billions of em, some of those are probably boring, and some part of interestingness is in the eye of the beholder.
I’d say that boringness mostly happens when someone isn’t aware of their potential for depht & dismisses the interests or sometimes turmoil-filled thoughts that would cultivate it as not worth pursuing, so that this inner place of imagination & softness gets obscured or go undeveloped.
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