#I think Ned saying /king/ specifically was to relate Sansa and Arya's position. Obviously at the time there is only one king so it's | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

thelawyerthatwaspromised · 5 years

Text

Sansa Stark is in love with Jon - Where does Jon stand?

It’s probably been long enough not to tag spoilers, but I’ll put this under the cut.

[under the cut]

Let’s get this outta the way - holy crap is Sansa Stark in love with Jon.

They also make this BEFORE Sansa even finds out about R+L=J.

The biggest hurdle for “Jonsa”, at least when it comes to the GA accepting the idea, has always been “but they see each other as siblings!” and as a close second “Sansa doesn’t want to be with anyone after what she’s been through”...and this episode emphatically put that to rest.

Perhaps just as importantly, we need to have an idea of what’s in Jon’s head - as his POV has remained frustratingly obscured by the show. All we’re left to do is interpret his actions. Words are wind, as they say, so seeing past his words and focusing on his behavior is the best way to get to the core of Jon’s current struggles.

First, the framing, again, told a very specific story.

Jon as the public head of the house. Speaking for them all.

You have Jon burning the body of Lyanna Mormont...the girl who died very much having lost respect for Jon because he gave up his crown. Then Jon shoots a look right at Dany. It’s...very negative as far as Jon having any type of love for Dany. She was the first one to pledge for him to fight the Boltons. She was the first one to proclaim that he should be king. Do you think he forgets that? No. What was Lyanna’s (LYANNA) favorite saying? The North Remembers.

The feast scene continued this Jon-Sansa-Dany framing as it opened with a clear image of Jon stuck in the middle between Sansa and Dany. Are Jon’s feelings also “torn” between these two women?

What can we tell about Jon’s POV?

Meanwhile, Gendry is observing Jon awkwardly looking over to Dany...he clearly senses something is amiss. Then his attention shifts to wondering where Arya might be. It’s subtle but it’s later confirmed by Tyrion and Davos that all is not well between Jon and Dany.

We also get a really subtle confirmation that Jon and Davos have NOT told Dany about who Gendry is...as evidenced by the momentary panic they both display when Dany announces that she knows who Gendry is and she’s going to reward him with Storm’s End. We find out later she wanted Jon to remain “Ned’s bastard” and I 100% believe she intended to legitimize him and name him the Lord of WF to usurp Sansa’s authority.

So Dany is specifically wedging herself between Jon and Sansa. She doesn’t do this unless she views Sansa as a threat when it comes to Jon. She doesn’t view Sansa as a threat if she can’t tell that Jon has a different vibe with Sansa. It’s a heavy clue, already, that Jon IS clearly having trouble keeping himself reserved.

Sansa’s look after Gendry is legitimized also tells the story that she knows what Dany just did and what she may be planning to do next.

Then we have the rather adorable little moment when Tormund is encouraging Jon to drink and they just HAD to slip in the subtle little, “go on, I believe in you” from Sansa. Again, on its own, it doesn’t really mean anything. But taken in the context of the rest of the interactions we see - Jon is ONLY at ease when Dany is not in the frame. Sansa being mildly flirtatious. Then giving Jon GIGANTIC heart eyes. Followed by her noticing that Jon is looking at Dany and Sansa stands up to leave. I mean...

These aren’t the behaviors of siblings. They removed Arya from the scene and it makes it even more obviously non-sibling in it’s framing. Sansa is very clearly pining for Jon and still very much bothered by Dany’s presence. The fact Jon turns around immediately after Sansa leaves to look for her is even more indication that, yeah, he has to keep up appearances with Dany, but his heart and attention lie completely elsewhere.

We’re then shown Jon having the love of the people in the Hall. Dany is shown having her Viserys-esque realization that she will never have the love of the people that Jon possesses. Varys takes keen interest in Dany’s internal meltdown, too.

Then, humorously but intentionally, we see Tormund lamenting that Brienne was taken from him by Jaime...and it’s a funny juxtaposition but it’s framed in crazy similar manner but infused with humor.

Sansa politely shuts Sansan down forever next, which was pretty great.

Also, she shuts down the notion from the Hound AND from some people in the GA that she made some mistake by leaving with Hound at Blackwater after the asshole talks about Sansa being raped by Ramsay. Beautiful. Also, fuck you, Hound.

I’ll skip ahead to what’s likely the most talked about scene: Jon and Dany in chambers. Jon is pretty clearly depressed when Dany walks in. He’s also drunk. Dany very clearly is not. Jon opens up talking about Jorah, and Dany talks about loving him and not being able to love him back like the way she loves Jon. Does Jon say “I love you?” when it’s teed up? No. He kisses her. Then - he freezes up and stops undressing her.

So...why did they stop? Are they uncomfortable about being related? No...Dany says what makes her unhappy IS HOW BELOVED JON IS BY HIS PEOPLE. (well, SHOULD be his people). Dany realizes that Jon will ALWAYS be more loved on “this side of the sea” than she will. And THAT’S what she can’t stomach. It’s her articulating that she cannot allow his claim to the Throne to become public BECAUSE SHE KNOWS THEY PREFER JON. That’s not love. That’s not even like. That’s pure pure envy and resentment.

Breakdown how she says things, “what happens when they press YOUR claim and take what’s MINE.” Damn. Talk about twisted entitlement. This isn’t about being kept from Jon for her. It’s about Jon exceeding her. She absolutely will not have that.

Jon knows this fear of hers. And so he goes absolutely desperation mode by bending a knee and saying he’ll refuse the crown. And then Dany does something that Jon finally...FINALLY...cannot accept. She tries to put rules on how he can behave with his family. She wants him (IMO) to stay Ned’s bastard and then be legitimized and take WF from Sansa. She puts an ultimatum on Jon - and Jon defies her.

I’ve seen it posited that Jon won’t want the Throne so much that he would keep it a secret forever. Aaaaaaaaaaaand that got exploded. Telling Sansa (and Arya but Dany very clearly emphasizes that Sansa is the one she fears) is more important to Jon than maintaining his relationship with Dany. Bada-bing. Bada-boom.

I strongly feel that Jon sees no way out of his relationship with Dany and that he’s resigned to living out his days with her in the south...being miserable. But it’s the price to pay to keep his people protected. He still believes he can’t defeat her. It’s all about safety. This is why he tries to make Sansa and Arya promise not to tell anyone. It’s explosive information. It’s dangerous. But - he prioritizes telling them over keeping it within. He makes the choice that Ned never could. This, I believe, shows that his family is the only

Dany’s monologue is pretty amazing: she’s talking about Jon’s claim and what it WILL DO TO PEOPLE (herself). No matter how many times he bends the knee. No matter how many times he swears he doesn’t want it, he will always be a threat to her if his claim is known.

Dany then INCREDIBLY says Sansa is not the girl Jon grew up with...not after the things that have happened to her. Ugh.

1) How fucking dare her?

2) How fucking dare her?

3) She doesn’t know who Sansa is or was in any capacity.

4) Jon hardly knew her when they were growing up.

5) She’s implying that Sansa’s traumas have made her a terrible person; meanwhile just last season Dany told Jon that her own traumas are exactly what gave her the resolve to rule Westeros.

6) Maybe she’s right - Sansa has also far exceeded Dany. That’s why Dany can’t have Sansa knowing about Jon’s identity.

7) Still, how fucking dare her.

And NOW I’m seeing why Dany is so obsessed with taking the Iron Throne immediately.

She needs the Iron Throne very very badly. It’s highlighted in her next war council scene. [talking about Cersei] “No matter how many lords are lined up against her, as long as she sits on the Iron Throne, she can call herself the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.”

Why might this not be just about Cersei? Because Dany just told Jon how he will always be more loved than Dany. She’s seen the loyalty shown to both Sansa AND Jon over herself. She knows Sansa is intelligent and worthy as a politician and schemer. She starts a race to the Throne because she has to get there before Jon or Sansa do.

This shows that Dany does NOT trust Jon anymore. She sees him primarily as a threat - but she understands she has leverage over him in the form of the threat of dragonfire.

So Jon is a subdued threat, in her mind. Sansa is the one she can’t rein in. This is why, IMO, she legitimized Gendry and very likely had the same plans for Jon and WF to undermine Sansa’s authority. She’s trying to play the Game of Thrones with Jon. That’s not love either, that’s greed and that’s fear.

Jon has ALWAYS tried to preserve lives. He endorses a blockade. He’s trying not to anger Dany. He’s JUST heard how much Dany fears Sansa’s political influence. Jon is afraid for Sansa - which is why he goes hard in the war council to try to defuse Dany’s anger.

Then a HUGE fucking line from Dany’s mouth:

“The longer I leave my enemies alone; the stronger they become.”

She doesn’t want to press the attack because of Cersei. She wants to press the attack because she’s sensing she’s losing power to Jon and Sansa. Look at how the damn camera focuses in on Sansa’s face as she says this. It’s not even about Cersei. It’s about keeping the Starks from gaining too much influence before she can take the Throne. She’s a runaway train and Jon is trying to delay her as much as he can because he KNOWS what she can do if the dragons are focused on Winterfell.

Jon’s desperately trying to get Sansa to see what he’s saying: “we’re gonna honor our promises to the queen of the seven kingdoms”. He’s not saying this because he believes it. Right after this he tells them he has the better claim to the Throne!!!! He’s saying this out of fear. Jon is still afraid. Because now there isn’t even a NK to distract Dany.

Jon’s behavior shows fear but it’s very very very plain that when push comes to shove, he chooses Sansa and Arya. He defies Dany’s demand by telling them about his identity. And he knows Dany is scared that Sansa will maneuver to make Jon the king. I completely believe he knows this himself. And he tells them anyway. It’s obviously already happening - with Sansa telling Tyrion - but I think the larger point is that Jon knows that it’s basically inevitable. Dany said if he tells anyone, it will tear them apart. He tells them anyway.

That’s where Jon’s mind is at. He pushed this along with Dany as long as he could. Now it’s reached a breaking point. And it totally involves Sansa. He chose his duty to Sansa over Dany’s begging.

It’s frustrating not to hear Jon say these things. But remember that words are wind. Actions define who people are. And Jon chose Sansa.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #political jon theory #political!jon #tltwp meta

1K notes · View notes

hooksandhappyendings-blog · 7 years

Text

The Case for Jonsa: Why there’s hope for season 8

I was very happy with the Wolf and the Dragon. In my opinion it leaves the door wide open for Jonsa. I know my fellow shipmates are worried, so I’ll just cut to the chase.

First, the execution of J0nerys is just not adding up.

At first, the Arya and Sansa thing had convinced me that the writers had just given up. But now that that’s been revealed to have been a clever deception, it makes me wonder why J0nerys has been so disastrously mishandled. I mean, this is supposed to be the epic ship. Their eventual demise is supposed to be heartbreaking, yet the efforts made to develop the relationship were downright lazy. I mean, not one, but TWO characters had to spell out the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys. Surely the same people who made us believe Arya might actually turn against her sister in just a few episodes could have done more to express the epic love story that is (supposedly) Fire and Ice. I mean, what kind of OTP doesn’t even get an onscreen first kiss?? Thank God this isn’t my pairing, I would be devastated. Up until that montage the most physical contact they had had was hand holding. Now, I’ve heard the argument that GoT is just a more serious show that doesn’t focus on romance. And to that I say, SINCE WHEN?! Cersei and Jaime, as unhealthy as it is, have a love story that has driven the entire plot since literally episode 1. Tyrion’s love story with Shea was incredibly moving and progressed in a very small amount of screentime. Ned and Cat’s love was behind most, if not all, of her motivations right up until her death. Jon and Ygrit’s romance was beautifully developed, again, with very little screentime. Even Sam and Gilly’s relationship, two characters who have relatively low priority, have one of the best love stories in the show. These writers know how to build a proper ship, so the question is, why didn’t they do it for THE ship? I believe it’s because this tryst is nothing more than a plot device leading to the real showdown: a triangle of contention between Jon, Dany, and Sansa.

Jon loves a woman that doesn’t exist.

I’ve maintained this whole time that the only reason Jon is so infatuated with Dany is because he’s never seen the real Dany. In fact, all he knows about her is what he’s been told by her advisors who are so far up her ass they can’t see the Targaryen shaped axe hanging over their heads. In private they admit that she isn’t an ideal ruler, but her saving grace is that she listens to her advisors. But how long will that last? Tyrion, as smart as he is, is banking on his ability to cage a dragon, which makes Dany’s sentiments on the dragon pit very foreboding. She does not believe in putting dragons in cages. She believe it makes them weak and vulnerable. I believe that next season we will see her rattle the cage, and Jon will see it too. He’ll see her show her true colors and it will definitely affect the way he feels.

The incest will be an issue.

It’s honestly hard to say how Jon will react to the revelation of his true lineage. Obviously there will be instant revulsion and disgust with regards to his intimacy with his aunt, but would he be able to eventually look past that? Normally I would say no, but this show loves it’s incest. Also, in GRRM’s original outline Jon does fall for Arya, but the brief wording of the summary implies that it isn’t consummated until he knows for a fact they are cousins rather than half siblings. If we make the assumption that the character in the final draft was the same as the original then this would mean Jon has a serious hang up about incest and honestly aunt/nephew is possibly worse than half siblings. Now, on the other hand, it also means that Jon has the ability to overlook a brother/sister bond as long as they aren’t actually siblings. Of course, this takes major speculation, but it’s at least worth taking into account when considering Dany and Sansa are literally the only available females for the King in the North. On top of all this there’s the problem that Dany will immediately see Jon as a rival. Even if he refuses the throne she will never be a better candidate than him. The people of Westeros are resisting her dominion while Jon’s people practically forced him into power. When you add that he is the undisputed heir it makes perfect sense that the paranoia of the dragon would turn Dany against him. And a marriage would be off the table. No matter what she did he would always have all the power. He would be the rightful king, able to call in his birthright at any time. It’s too big a risk to let him stand next to the Iron Throne. Now that we know Bran plans on spilling the beans as soon as Jon walks through the door we can be sure that J0nerys is on a clock.

Sansa has very clear motivations that are sure to be aimed at Jon.

We finally saw in this episode who Sansa truly has become. She outwitted the master and executed yet another enemy. And her final words to him were as satisfying as they were revealing: Thank you for your many lessons. I will not forget them. This is clearly setting up a brand new character for season 8. This is the writer’s telling us that this Sansa is unpredictable. Her actions are no longer a reliable reflection of her thoughts, not just to the other characters but to us the viewers as well. Rewatching her scenes with Littlefinger is beautiful. She lets him lead her by the nose, only to lure him into revealing his true intentions so blatantly it’s actually laughable the Mockingbird didn’t see his demise coming. So how will this new willingness to manipulate and deceive affect her and Jon’s relationship? Well, the real issue will be Dany. No way in fuck they’re going to get along. The look on Sansa’s face when Baelish suggested Jon being attracted to Dany is one of pure horror. She knows what that would mean for her. Dany could easily squeeze her out as Jon’s chief advisor. Dany’s relationship with the King will threaten her position and I believe this new Sansa will fight back.

Sansa is likely capable of sleeping with a brother figure.

Aside from the obvious fact that manipulating your brother with your sexuality is a Cersei-approved strategy for maintaining power, I strongly believe that Sansa is completely detached from her sexuality. Her only experience with sex has been her fiance threatening to rape her on her wedding night and her husband... well, raping her on her wedding night. And then every night, for months. While being brutally beaten and cut. If female psychology in Westeros is anything like it is in the real world then Sansa’s history is the perfect storm for a woman with severe issues with her own sexuality. Specifically, women who are raped long term while in a committed relationship often become detached from the act. Instead of seeing it as emotional it’s seen as simply a bodily function. One that is expected to hurt very badly. This leads to things like masochism, associating hate and anger with sex, and hypersexuality. With a psyche this messed up it’s easy to see how a woman would want to reward the only man that’s ever protected her with sex, while also expressing her anger towards him in the only way she knows how.

What would Cersei do?

Next season we can predict one certainty: Jon, Dany, and Sansa are going to be cooped up in a cold castle for months, possibly years. Dany will be whispering in Jon’s ear and Sansa will likely clash with her on a personal level, which will push her to drive a wedge between the two. I think that if Sansa truly is now thinking like Cersei, then we have only to ask ourself how Cersei would react in such a situation. What would Cersei Lannister do if she stood beside a man who was being taken away from her influence by another woman? What would she do if she was a viable option for marriage as opposed to the other woman who can’t bare children and is inappropriately related? We all know the answer. If Sansa continues down the path she is on, you can bet the thought will occur to her too.

In conclusion...

My theory has adjusted a lot since the beginning of this season but I still have plenty of hope and you should too!! There is more than enough time to pull together a Jonsa plot in the final season. J0nerys isn’t being written like something that’s not going to matter in the end and will surely be over as soon as Jon learns his real name. Sansa will have every reason to dislike Dany and if Sansa takes inspiration from her teachers there’s only one way to deal with the situation. Because of her unfortunate history with sex she’s likely detached enough from her own sexuality to use it as a weapon.

The evidence is there guys. Don’t jump ship yet.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #jonsa meta #jon x sansa meta #starkcest #the case for jonsa #sansa stark #game of thrones spoilers

170 notes · View notes