#bitch. no one serious is taking those seriously. if joanna denny was the definitive AB bio that would be one thing

[fideidefenswhore]

What are your thoughts on Jane Boleyn, and the role she supposedly played in the fall of 3 Queens (Anne Boleyn, Anna of Cleves, Katheryn Howard)? Do you think she has been too maligned by historians for centuries, especially when it comes to the relationship with the Boleyns (it seems she got along with Anne)?

Now that I've read both works and compared them side by side, I suppose I would say my stance on Jane Boleyn falls somewhere in between that of Julia Fox and James Taffe ('Somewhere in between' is not, btw, Alison Weir); although closer to the former than the latter. Offering critique of both biographies, I would say that of JF is too apologetic (smoothing out wrinkles that exist in her arguments rather than acknowledging them) and JT is too severe.

Especially when it comes to the relationship with the Boleyns? Yes and no. Obviously she was married to George, she sent him a message of comfort while he was in the Tower, and wore only black the rest of her life, which was quite the potent statement. However, I would allow for the possibility that she potentially, inadvertently implicated him or AB (ie, testimony of hers was twisted to suit the crown's case). This is where I think there are flaws in the arguments of some of her defenders-- they cannot allow for even that possibility and so make claims that disallow it; some of which are untrue. 'Jane was only blamed as a means of absolving Henry in the whitewash of Elizabethan propagandists' is not true. Johannes Sleidan in 1545 claimed that Anne and George died by her 'false accusation'. Sleidan was a Reformer, so he would have been more sympathetic towards the plights of these two than the average person, and would have spoken to others that were as well, but the motivation to vindicate Elizabeth did not yet exist; she was at this point the very unlikely third in line to the throne.

I do appreciate that you said 'got along' with Anne, not 'besties', because...it's possible they were very close, certainly, but we must also allow for the possibility of animosity. The linchpin for the argument of closeness is the report from Chapuys that they 'conspired together' to banish Henry's mistress from court. Was this the precise truth? Considering the source I'm doubtful. Probably there was a lady Henry was serving at this time (although that we never have a name makes the story somewhat suppositious), but did they need to have 'conspired together' against her for Jane to be banished from court (which is what happened instead)? Jane might have merely made Anne aware of her, and Henry finding out that she'd been the source would have been enough for banishment. Or, as was presented plausibly in Adrienne Dillard's fictional rendition, Jane might have dropped hints to Cromwell that this mistress was a supporter of the two exiled and contumacious royal women that were Anne's adversaries, Cromwell might have passed this along to Henry, and Henry might have banished Jane for shattering the illusion that this woman had no independent ambitions or ulterior motives and merely let him hit for the sheer pleasure of his company.

If this was evidence of closeness, and it might be, then we also have to remember that the end result was Jane's banishment from court, and that there is, as JT fairly pointed out, no evidence that any of the Boleyns spoke in her defense, favor, or for her return. It would take an extremely magnanimous person to accept all that with equanimity and not feel any resentment whatsoever. So, if there was intimacy, there might have also been rift.

That leaves the question: enough 'rift' for her to seek vengeance? I doubt that much for all the reasons Fox outlines in her biography, but at the same time I wish there was not this relentless push to only defend women that we assert 'deserve' defense, on the premise they were entirely selfless, accepted every insult with grace, never kept any grudges, never had personal ambitions (the actions she took during the queenships of those you mentioned would suggest otherwise), mixed emotions, or conflicting loyalties; that we could acknowledge that acknowledging the agency of historic women also means acknowledging they were capable of making mistakes.

#anon #it feels like an 'overcorrection' to some degree. if that makes sense? #altho that's generally what ppl say about AB too and i generally think they're wrong lol #'waaah AB apologism waaaaahhh joanna denny wahhhhhhhhhhhh h/ayley nolan' #bitch. no one serious is taking those seriously. if joanna denny was the definitive AB bio that would be one thing #the definitive is eric ives who oh no said in his personal opinion that his favorite was more attractive in personality and appearance #than the other...oh my god that is the worst thing anyone has every said in the HISTORY OF TIME #are y'all this sensitive in real life bcus fr. #how do you bitches SURVIVE.................. #anyway what i was initially going to say after coming back to this: #*ever #like the way this figure is used to have it both ways really bothers...me? #i think there's some ambiguity here but like #i read someone claim that JS must have been 'so sweet' bcus otherwise JB would not have been her lady in waiting.... #which is like. be fr? if JB loved george and anne she would have hated her lol #or at the very least have been uneasy in her presence (there's a great scene with this in adrienne's sequel btw) #but like...idk man. ppl just don't seem to get how humans worked? or have any sort of emotional; media; literal; literacy? #this was my thing with BSR too 'how dare THEY say henry NEVER loved coa how dare THEY say jane was to blame for anne's miscarriage' #like right...were 'they' saying that or was anne? or was that what anne believed? was the show perhaps from her (gasp) POV and so #these things were portrayed? i mean ffs.... by our literal primary sources those were the things she said. #someone's emotions and beliefs /= infallible unassailable entire truths #nor are they necessarily 'fair' and the same with our judgements. welcome to being a human being #so yeah like re: JB.... #*that she felt like that? was it entirely fair to blame and resent the seymours? #is that necessarily fair? no. how much she did or didn't was probably dependent on how accurate chapuys report was about JS #the extent to which she had disparaged anne #as for the why as JF theorized ; the need of income and the possibility that since cromwell had helped her with income #this was the favor he wanted in return (so her as a spy in the household) #and re: conflicting loyalties ; i mean ...goddamn; people are complex #i think it's entirely possible that JB loved anne but also had this innate sympathy for coa and mary too.