#but Sushi and Phoebe actively want to interact

[doberbutts]

I think tater is just realizing because of peebs how good she had it with Sushi. Hence the cuddling. “Oh shes fjcking crazy. I guess she isn’t so bad”

No I think that's literally exactly what's going on lmao

Tater: god I hate Sushi I am barely tolerating her because dad says I must but also she cannot be touching me or interacting with me in any way or I will bat screech at her 🤬🤬🤬

Phoebe: hi

Tater: holy shit Sushi is a godsend I will play with and cuddle with and positively interact with Sushi because she's leagues better than whatever the hell dad's brought home this time, who I must now bat screech at whenever she so much as looks in my direction

#what's actually happening is that tater's socialization was primarily tiny dogs #the biggest dog she'd ever known before she was a year and a half was a pug #Creed by the time she met him was pretty chill about tiny dogs #but Sushi and Phoebe actively want to interact #and she takes a looooooong time to warm up to anything larger than a pug #she's also a very boundary dog and requires that other dogs follow her rules to a T no exceptio s #so all of that said #sushi has learned tater's boundaries and tater has learned to live with sushi #but phoebe does not understand boundaries #and also does not understand why the chihuahuas don't like her #so she does everything she can to get them to change their minds #please what if I hit you what if I play bow really hard what if I give you my butt what if I drop toys on your head #I've seen this behavior before with young Creed and him trying to get various cats to like him #peebee's just like... Creed but on crack lmao #take all of Creed's bonkers behaviors and times it by about 10 and you have pb #none of the girls knew Creed as a youngster so they don't understand what young dobes are like

[doberbutts]

***This is pure theory please do not infect my notes with people who refuse to Be Normal about ears and tails***

I do wonder sometimes about dobe body language and social interactions specifically, because I've noticed some trends and I don't know how much of it is just the dogs owned by local folks or if it's an Actual Thing. But a thread on my dobe forum made me think on this and it's my dog blog so I get to post whatever I want.

Someone asked about wagging nubs, because their dog did not often wag. And I will say that as a general rule, most dobes I've known don't wag their nubs unless they are feeling particularly happy or excited about something. This is interesting to me because Phoebe *does not* stop wagging her tail unless she is actively scared or upset. So you would think that, if she were docked, the nubbin would wag a lot too.

And maybe it's a personality thing- Creed and Skoll did not wag their nubs much and they were also fairly serious, stoic dogs. Creed at least had the benefit of always being loved and well-adjusted, so he had other body language cues even if the nub itself was not normally part of it. But Skoll and his baggage was very stiff and tense, honestly I don't know that he ever really unclenched and relaxed in the way that Creed could. Phoebe on the other hand is very silly, goofy, happy, puppy. So of course she emotes much more and of course she wags her tail all the time.

BUT I will say that there are tense moments with her too. When she plays with Sushi there is a moment where she stiffens and waits for Sushi to respond. Sushi always responds with either avoidance or play, making her relax and drop into a playbow, but it does make me wonder if dobes having trouble in their social interactions with other dogs (ESPECIALLY with non-dobermans) is a mixture of them not utilizing the remaining body parts they do have (such as Creed/Skoll not wagging) and also their generally stiff and upright posture when faced with another dog offering interaction. Phoebe does a lot of what appears to be demanding "friend or foe!" and while Sushi always responds with "friend!" I can see this leading to trouble in a multi-dog setting where not everyone has the easy attitude of a happy swissy.

A (working line) breeder I know who always used to crop and dock and has since switched to fully natural dogs also anecdotally has said that her dogs do wag and emote more when left intact. This is also very interesting to me because she's using the same lines and often direct descendants of the dogs she says didn't emote much, and her dogs are still known for being quite sharp and serious and stoic. When she uploads videos of them interacting, they also do that brief stiffen "friend or foe!" with each other until one of them offers a play behavior to break the tension. Dobes are stupidly easy to offend and don't take kindly to rudeness from other dogs, so it's very possible that split second freeze is a warning of "hey, didn't love that, you do that on purpose???" from a rude play behvaior that wasn't properly signalled in advance.

On top of all that, I've noticed here in the states that the show line dogs (American) tend to be more emotive, tend to talk more, and tend to have more sociability with other dogs. Whereas the euro show lines tend to be quite serious and many of the euro working lines tend to be quite sharp. However Phoebe surprised me in her social nature and her silly personality, but others who I've spoken to about her have verified that she's pretty typical for working line dogs from Nordic countries minus the undersocialization. This makes me wonder if it's partially a line thing- different countries have different dog culture, and thus whether intending to or not will select for different levels of sociability and sharpness and emotive behavior while still breeding for "the same thing". American line dogs do often wag their nubs, even their entire butts, whenever something pleases them in the same way that Phoebe wags her tail. Whereas I'll attend a UDC event populated mostly by euro show line or euro show/work cross dogs and they're all very serious and stoic while being quite willing to snap and snark at a problem.

With things in the breed slowly trending towards more acceptance for natural dogs, I wonder if we'll see a change in how both humans and dogs receive dobes, or if that very stiff and confrontational behavior present even in the natural dogs still spells trouble for their ability to have positive social interactions with others.