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ranboo5 · 3 years

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whats 'the clip' and knifetrick?

Augh. Under the cut for shipping discourse and p/dophilia ment (nothing graphic or specific). Gets long bc I discuss my thoughts on DSMP shipping in general. You are setting me up fr anon

Some quick vocab -

intimacy here is used to refer to. Well. Any kind of intimacy between characters, of any sort, as an umbrella term /r, /p, and /qp here are used as shorteners to denote "romantic," "platonic," and "queerplatonic," both as adjectives And as verbs ("to /r" = "to portray romantically") shipping here is used to refer to any focused examination of intimacy between characters

And some clarity that Should follow from the essay next but may not - """anti-antis"""" and RPF writers delete forever

The Clip is from one of if not the? most recent Discord stage(s) Mr Live has done (which I missed when it was live RIP) wherein he issues a hard ban on shipping him ("do not ship me, in any way, with anyone!") which would less influence c!beeduo (which has been portrayed/stated to be romantic AND nonromantic both conflictingly for a while until being confirmed unconfirmed several months ago, that being the last was heard) without its direct invocation if he hadn't also cited for the reason as being underage ("'Cause, one, it's straight up pedophilia") which is! a) immediately applicable to At Least his DSMP character, Partially and b) while not Strictly True (should b obvious that portraying a relationship within the bounds of what it is in canon and in a nonsexual way is not That, and /r-ing c!beeduo etc was possible to do Appropriately again by remaining w/in the bounds of canon) is Clearly Indicative of the fact that baggage-wise it IS associated with people being fucking creeps

This Really complicates things bc like okay the apparent solution is "lol just don't /r it" but it's really like. A Worse issue than that bc like.

Okay the reason shipping in terms of fictional characters is a Different Bar is bc it's an examination of Intimacy and certain lines exist in certain dynamics of intimacy that Isn't Shown (which is the whole Within The Bounds Of Canon thing) which is important in a medium like DSMP because of the smaller gap + more personal relationship b/w character and streamer. Examining intimacy beyond th bounds of the consent that has been established in that regard is Weird at best and Violating And Creepy more often and, As Mentioned In Ranb's Stage, Literally Evil at worst

Which is why writing abt like. QPR or platonically intimate Techno and Philza (characters) is smth that is fine because that's smth that has been shown and repeatedly stated onscreen; it's in the bounds of canon n thus within th bounds of what the streamers've consented 2 be done with their characters. But writing T3chza making out or whatever is fucked up because it's smth that's beyond those consent barriers

And the thing is right

Slapping a /p on T3chza makeout doesn't. Make it less violating

Like what you CALL romantic is not the measure or whether it's past those barriers yk? And if it's indistinguishable, if it's in extrapolative territory that is Past The Bounds, it Does Not Matter how much you /p it EVEN IF IT IS TECHNICALLY PLATONIC y feel? Like at the end of the day placing a moratorium on some/all forms of shipping is placing a moratorium on certain examinings of intimacy

And okay 2 go back to Mr Live and his character. What it implies taken in context w/ older portrayals of c!beeduo and said by invoking smth that both evokes Really fucked up baggage (that does unfortunately exist btw I'm sorry if you didn't know that but People Really Do B Fucked Up Abt Beeduo) AND applies to his character is a revocation of consent to examining deep intimacies:tm: with his character, which is gonna apply regardless of the nature of that intimacy (even if nonromantic)

Like I don't /r c!beeduo myself, do not, never have, but I talk to people who have and have consumed content where they r background /r; I also don't think it matters. Like I don't Actively /r it and I don't Actively Not /r it because imho w/ the intimacy regarding c!beeduo that is plot relevant and character important whether that intimacy is /p /qp or /r doesn't really matter. I don't consider myself Less of a c!beeduo shipper than someone who /rs them because that would be dumb as hell and while none of the content I've made* is Intrinsically or Intentionally /r it certainly can be read tht way as much as it can be read /qp or /p. It's be dumb and hypocritical of me to like, dunk on ppl for /r-ing c!beeduo when I'm also invested in these two and my tonetags r not gonna suddenly Delete the picking apart I've done of the dynamic @ hand

Which Has Been. Within Bounds Of Canon. It's been what's been shown (sometimes to my great distress. There is a reason that the :canon_beeduo: emote looks the way it does) Directly Onscreen and in general keeping with the tone n intensity/directions of what they've Done With The Characters

HOWEVER

As mentioned up there. Revocation of consent

It makes. Full sense 2 me that Mr Live wants to place a moratorium or fullon ban on shipping his characters perhaps where he wouldn't have before because of the Unfortunately Very Extant trends of people being Fucking Weird about shipping his characters AND of using them as a Thinly Veiled Excuse to ship HIM, which. I should not have to explain why shipping real people is fucking abhorrent

THIS creates a problem which is a. Bit of a vacuum in interacting with what is a facet of c!Ranboo's arc, decision making, and character. Like you CAN have c!Ranboo w/o cbeeduo but you Can't Really have his plotline without examining c!beeduo. And as I mentioned earlier: even if your examination of c!beeduo is fully platonic, the significance of it To the plotline means that any examination of it and its relevance to the plotline and characters IS gonna be an examination of intimacy, which. Regardless of it's platonic, Is Still Shipping

Unless some HARD retconning happens it leaves this like. Hole in an aspect of c!Ranboo's arc and decisionmaking and it's very. Uncertain? God. Fucking months ago I was already kind of :huh. Does he know what the fuck he's doing: irt c!beeduo and desperately wishing for things to be cleared up and now it's only That Much Stronger

NOW. KNIFETRICK, FINALLY

Knifetrick (or, as it’s actually listed, Bishop’s Knife Trick) is a fic about "Ran and Jackie from The Pit TFTSMP" in a "canon-typical ambiguously romantic relationship." As you can tell from the scare quotes, especially if you've seen me vague, both of these are, to put it politely, Doubtful. I've read the fic; I will not be sharing my opinions because that would be neither productive nor responsible (I will just say I can't recommend it and leave it at that) but I WILL say the following that Is relevant to the conversation:

Ran's and Jackie's characterizations respectively have very little to do with characterizations from The Pit, and bear a dollar-store-version resemblance to tropes and personality motifs found in ESPECIALLY fanon c!beeduo, especially later in the fic. I would not go so far as to say they are Intentionally Literally Ranboo and Tubbo but they are transparent expies and were clearly written at LEAST unintentionally w/ c!beeduo in mind (esp since. Ran and Jackie barely interacted in The Pit), and for a readerbase that, as far as I can tell, is HUGELY dominated by /r c!beeduo shippers. Like. Sorry. This is off-brand c!beeduo.

The dynamic between the two is pretty unambiguously romantic, also; despite what the fic's white knights claim, romantic tropes and implications/motifs/imagery from at LEAST chapter two, and is very much explicitly romantic by the most recent chapter.

FROM CH1:

"And now, with raised eyebrows and a pursed lip, the newly named General Jackie observes Ran in such a way that makes the enderman’s skin crawl. Ran reminds himself that this kid, as short and harmless as he may look, is trained to kill. [...] Jackie narrows his eyes and tilts his head a little, as if he’s trying to read in between every one of Ran’s imperfect scales."

FROM CH2:

"It makes Ran’s skin itch with discomfort. [...] 'That actually doesn’t explain much of anything at all,' complains Jackie, and he pops a few croutons into his mouth with one hand. 'Tell me what you’re thinking, pretty-boy.'

"Ran feels his face flush, no doubt mildly glowing green.

"Yes, that was the other thing. The unnecessary compliments to his physical appearance.

"They don’t happen very often, and don’t seem to have very much meaning or intention behind them— Jackie often speaks like an unthinking kid— but when they do happen… they’re embarrassing. [...] It’s annoying how the rug is pulled out from under his feet in these moments when he’s 'embarrassed'. Like the conversation see-saw has temporarily shifted weight in the general’s favor."

I am not going to include excerpts from Chapter 6 because it's just the entire chapter.

I WILL SAY, HOWEVER, STEPPING ON THIS SCORPION BEFORE IT STINGS: they are not written in an RPFy manner and I don't think there's any grounds, including Vibes, of accusing Knifetrick of being like. Closet truthing or whatever. Also, while I think there's certainly Some Weirdness ESPECIALLY around the reaction, the romance itself is Not written in any way I'd call weird or problematic pre-clip; it's nothing inappropriate or like Weirdly Fetishy or whatever. Knifetrick is not #problematic or anything and I don't have beef with like the concept of liking it intrinsically; if I thought it was like. Abhorrent I wouldn't be sharing excerpts lmao dhjfnhdsbvdnfjh. Hence: if anyone uses this post or anyth like it to send harassment or bad faith ANYTHING to anyone involved with Knifetrick I will hunt you down in the fucking night even if it WAS #problematic that'd be the LITERAL OPPOSITE of productive and as it stands it's Literally Not. Essentially: Knifetrick is a (questionably-written /mean) fic using Ran and Jackie from The Pit as a vessel for a large chunk of the dynamics and headcanons of fanon /r c!beeduo in particular

And again, I would not call it problematic in any way (aside from the disingenuity of the insistence that it's TOTALLY UNRELATED TO BEEDUO and TOOOTALLY WASN'T INTENDED TO BE ROMANTIC GUYS like own your shit please)... IF it weren't for the advent of The Clip, which is calling in2 question the Entirety of the problem of /r-ing any variant of c!beeduo or any of Ranboo's characters at all

I really do not have an answer for this tbh. I genuinely wanna hear from the streamer on this more specifically because I like,,, I got no clue where 2 go from here? Do I just consider an arc retconned? Was it an issue of speaking abt a troubling subject kneejerk wise and I'm reading too much in2 it?

I just. I dunno

Tl;dr (AT LONG LAST)

- The Clip is a clip of a Discord stage where Ranboo (streamer) loudly explicitly decried shipping in a way that implicitly applies to characters he plays - This would be all well and good but is rendered complicated by the plot relevance of c!beeduo, which does not stop being shipping if it's /p'd due to it still necessarily being an examination of a particular intimacy in a way that is in canon hard to distinguish the /p, /qp, or /r nature of - Bishop's Knife Trick is an AO3 fic centered around using TFTSMP characters as /r c!beeduo expies which is not a bad thing in and of itself unless it also is covered under this moratorium - Things remain unclear until and unless we get clearer word from streamer, but considering Mr Live seems to be allergic to clarifying anything abt c!beeduo this is doubtful

*very little if any of the content I personally have made 4 c!beeduo has been posted publicly, for related reasons. You May have seen it if you're in servers w/ me, depending on Which Ones

#dsmp fandom critical #kind of?#jic #ask to tag #I am technically defending Kn1fetrick on this post #I am not nice to it but I am defending it technically. If people start being rude abt it I am going to set myself on fire #this IS ludicrously long but I have tl;dr'd it as I do with all my ludicrously long posts. I think I have salient thoughts

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andryuska · 6 years

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🔥 + the fandom's interpretation of andrei

send 🔥 + a topic for an unpopular opinion ( accepting )

where do i even fucking begin? okay, there are a lot of not so good interpretations of andrei through the great comet fandom ( which is what i’m gonna focus on, the war and peace book fandom is pretty good ) and so i think my unpopular opinion on them is that they just… exist at all, tbh. like, the source material ( literally just one song ) is not exactly great at portraying the depths of andrei, i get that, but there are some ways that it’s taken that are totally off the mark and it really bothers me. i’m gonna put the general things here and you can read more if you want to, because i have a lot to say about a few particular things: first, andrei is not a villain, second, andrei had every right to refuse to forgive natasha and this should not be seen as a malicious action on his part ( because it fucking isn’t ), and third, ( in a bit of a different direction ) andrei and natasha would not have had a good marriage. explanations under the cut.

andrei is not a villain. he’s not. it’s just not a thing, he’s not a villainous character and when he’s malicious it’s because he’s trying to contain a very deep grief through repression, and because he grew up in a household where expressing emotions was not okay ( especially for andrei, who was being molded by his father into a very traditional and unhealthy image of masculinity ), he ‘s trying to suppress those emotions. the way he knows how to do that? by being cold and very standoffish, and then by just completely refusing to talk about it.

when pierre comes to see andrei, andrei refused to see him at first, and is engaged in a debate about politics. while he and pierre talk, andrei is reserved and pretty much just pushes away every emotional question. he says he can’t forgive her, and that’s it, that’s the end of the story, he doesn’t want to talk about it, and the way he expresses it is almost forceful because that’s the person he’s been told to be by traditional russian society ( via his father ). when he tells pierre to go and to never speak to him of the matter again, it’s about avoiding questions. and after that, you’ll note, he and pierre relationship as friends is essentially over, because andrei has just buried himself so deep in repression and this desire for revenge against anatole ( to defend honor and because he’s understandably upset ) that friendship won’t do anything. andrei self isolates, but it is NOT out of a desire to be malicious or evil. it’s just a thing that he does, that is unhealthy and comes off kind of badly when you don’t have the whole context of the rest of his reaction.

further, and there’s a post out there somewhere about this but i’m not going to dig it up, when he “ smiles coldly [and] maliciously ” it’s not because he’s happy about hearing natasha’s in bad shape - he most certainly is not. rather, he’s trying to push thing away, and again it comes off as kind of horrible, even if that is in no way his intention. you gotta remember, andrei is not very adequate socially, he’s not good at these emotional cues, and so sometimes the right expression just won’t translate. expressing grief with a sort of pained smile is one such miscalculation, in my opinion, and it shouldn’t be taken as an expression of actual and intentional malice toward natasha.

andrei had every right to refuse to forgive natasha and this should not be seen as a malicious action on his part. my mom kind of put this in perspective for me when i told her about great comet, and it basically goes like this: andrei doesn’t have to forgive natasha, because even though it’s sad, and even though we sympathize with natasha and know she made a mistake and was definitely manipulated in some degree by anatole, she still fucking cheated on him. as far as andrei knows, she had every intention of going through with her elopement and she refused him very much on her own volition. the complexities of those actions are known to us, but they are not known to andrei, and again. she cheated on him, no matter the motivation behind it, and so he has every right not to forgive her because of that.

also important is that in refusing her, andrei is not acting maliciously ( imagine me, having to clarify this again and again ) against natasha, but acting in accordance with his own grief, and with the sense of betrayal that’s come with her refusing him. no matter the circumstances of their relation from his perspective, which i will get in to in the next section, what she did hurt him a lot, and he has every right to respond to that pain with not wanting to forgive her immediately and reconcile their relationship. take what happened and put it in another story, and we’d all be agreeing with andrei, not having this discussion about the ethics of refusing to reconcile your betrothal with someone who very much intended to refuse you for another man despite having already promised marriage.

( all of you who made it this far: thanks for putting up with me, and be warned that this next one is the unpopular opinion that is probably the most controversial. )

andrei and natasha would not have had a good marriage. listen, i know it’s nice to think about them living in a happy marriage with each other and all of their problems being solved, but it wouldn’t work out. whether you count in the anatole drama or not, they just wouldn’t have been able to sustain happiness together. there are reasons on both sides for this, but this unpopular opinion is about andrei, so i’m going to focus on why he wouldn’t have been happy marrying natasha. that’s not to say they did not love each other: andrei loves natasha lot, even after she refuses him, and he is indeed very invested in her happiness and would do a lot of things for her. he loves her unquestionably, but that does not necessarily make up the basis of a happy marriage when there are other factors at play. so here we go;

exhibit a: before he leaves, when he asks for her hand and when she says yes, he already suddenly loses a lot of the hope that he has. like, she says yes, and he suddenly clues into her faults and starts to forget that very temporary bout of happiness he has after otradnoe. it’s not natasha’s fault, it’s just who andrei is: he has a disillusionment deeply ingrained in him, and the moment he gets too close, the moment he can lift the veil of ignorance, he’s going to find faults and its going to make him unhappy, and it’s a pervasive problem: much earlier on, he says to pierre that he can’t sleep because he has all these intellectual burdens, and that applies just as much to marriage.

this is because andrei is not so cool with the idea of marriage itself. there are some sexist reasons ( which i do not condone and completely downplay here, because tolstoy was a dick and i’m not making that a part of my portrayal ) and more importantly here, there are some objections to the “ consequences ” of marriage that andrei has. namely, a life that is heavily focused on inaction and society, one wherein people talk about political affairs and military operations as though they’re games, when it fact they’re something he sees as an enormous tragedy and failing of mankind, that should not be taken likely. he feels useless when he’s married ( see: his very bad marriage to lise ) and marrying natasha, regardless of love, wouldn’t change that.

exhibit b: andrei and natasha are fundamentally different people that, though in the early stages of their relationship, might be okay, would not have led to a long term happiness between them. andrei has a very cynical view of the world and of other people, he does not enjoy things in society, and he is intensely intellectual and judgmental and harsh to those who cannot necessarily keep up with that intellect. natasha is wonderful, and i love her, but she and andrei couldn’t have kept their happiness up for long because andrei would inevitable become disillusioned with her, and then likely get bored and end up miserable again. not because he would fall out of love, but just because they’re not exactly that compatible. andrei needs someone in the long term who can not only offset his cynicism, but can also fight against it, and who also has at least enough similar interests that they’ll never lack for intellectual conversation. because, after all, andrei does not do talk about emotions and other people very well, he needs that political and intellectual side as well, and for all the things she does have, natasha doesn’t really have that.

there’s also the thing about natasha being very young and still quite inexperienced whereas andrei has had a lot of very terrible experiences and some difficult trauma from them, and the fact that they cannot seem to keep up their relationship with separation, which is something that would have happened a lot in their marriage - whether he wanted it or not, andrei would have been going away frequently. so, while there’s a lot of points for their relationship, like that love and affection, it doesn’t exactly lend itself to something long term and sustainable.

tl:dr: their marriage would have been a bit of a mess, and probably would have caused them both unhappiness even if they continued to love each other.

anyway, i guess i should conclude that long, completely unedited rant with a saying that if you have a different opinion, that’s fine, this is just the interpretation that i take from having read the book. if you want to hear more anger ranting about andrei, i actually do have more opinions, so send me that ask with the same topic and i will continue, i promise. otherwise, um, thanks for putting up with me and my bitterness.

#answered #headcanon #about #¯\_(ツ)_/¯#i have opinions and im not sorry about it #moscowsdragon

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