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cappymightwrite · 3 years

Note

So I’ve just read your meta on the TWOW Alayne I sample chapter (it’s amazing btw!) and I noticed something while reading it that I wanted to share and see if anybody else has noticed - nearly every man Alayne dances with during the feast could be taken as a reference to Jon or the Night’s Watch.

Ben Coldwater -> Snow is, obviously, cold water, and Ben is a sneaky Benjen reference

Andrew Tollett -> most likely related to Dolorous Edd Tollett, Jon’s old steward and good friend

Ser Byron the Beautiful -> GRRM has described Jon as a Byronic hero

Ser Morgarth and Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse -> these men are more dubious, I’m not really sure of the link with Morgarth. Shadrich is a callback from Brienne’s AFFC plot though, and a sign that Sansa’s cover isn’t as secure as she and Littlefinger think it is

Ser Albar Royce - a reference to Waymar Royce, he of the many Jon parallels and Sansa’s old crush, though she finds his cousin(?) stout and dull

The Sunderlands - their family are the lords of the Three Sisters. In ADWD, Davos is told a story on Sweetsister about Ned having to sneak across the Bite during Robert’s Rebellion, to get North and call his banners. A fisherman helped him but drowned when a storm caught their boat - but his daughter got Ned safely to the Sisters. The prevailing story on the islands seems to be that he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly, whom she named after Jon Arryn

Uther Shett - I was half-convinced this guy also had a relative on the wall, because his name (insulting pun aside) seems to be a reference to Chett, the prologue POV of ASOS who had a grudge against Jon for losing him his position as one of Maester Aemon’s stewards in favour of Sam

Ser Targon the Halfwild - Jon will likely be half-wild when he comes back from the dead, but he’s already been described as ‘half a wildling’ multiple times. Also Targon = Targ-Jon?

Ser Roland and Ser Wallace Waynwood - both are described earlier in the chapter as long-faced with brown hair, which are also Stark features. Alayne thinks of them as “horsefaced”, probably an Arya reference that also calls back to her and Jon’s shared Stark look. Wallace is even the same age as Robb, and thus Jon, would be.

So though Jon wasn’t mentioned by name in the chapter, I think he was very present... not just lemoncake-wise ;)

Thank you! :D Haha for a moment there I was like...wait which meta? Had to take my mind back for a sec there because I've written quite a bit since then! But yeah, doing deep dives into certain chapters is really fun — my next one that's in the works is Jon XI in A Dance With Dragons. Great to hear you enjoyed my Winds one :)

Ooooh that is really interesting and a mighty fine catch! Definitely the vibe I got whilst reading that chapter, after having analysed Alayne II, AFFC (which chronologically precedes it), is that Jon's presence or references to him are made subtly throughout the chapter(s) — especially whenever Winterfell is alluded to because Jon is the "Snow of Wintefell", the "blood of Winterfell", etc. But also vice versa, Sansa is very much connected to Winterfell in Jon's chapters as well — "Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa."

But let's take a look at those names you listed below the cut! Big post ahead, so buckle up kids!

So, I hadn't noticed the significance of those names on my reading, but I can well believe what you're suggesting because it plays very much into how I interpreted the subconscious goings on of that chapter — that you have these rememberances/reminders of Winterfell and Sansa's Stark idenity at crucial moments within the chapter’s narrative pacing, especially prior to moments with Harry the Heir. Not to sound too crass, but it's sort like a marking of territory, and this is made even stronger by that goddamn phallic as hell Giant's Lance lemoncake (aka Jon's peen). It's all quite neatly buried, but when you start matching up the imagery...I mean, I guess wolves are territorial beasts, so...checks out? (George...why are you like this?)

It is interesting that we get that iconic entrance of the Giant's Lance lemoncake prior to these dance partners, i.e. a claim has been staked essentially, and it ain't from Littlefinger, which is what could be interpreted on first inspection. And let's not beat around the bush, as uncomfortable as it is (because Sansa is ONLY 13/14!!), this is a sexual claim being made owing to the phallic symbolism and the general tone of the chapter being about Alayne's betrothal/marriage:

And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.

For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out.

I legit just snorted re-reading this: "splendid subtlety" MY ASS! What follows is a whole lot of gift-giving, which come to think of it, in combination with this bloody big cake...well, it reads quite a bit like a wedding breakfast to me, followed by dancing, in addition to a possible nod to a Stark bridal cloak, masked by the Arryn colours:

There were gifts as well, splendid gifts. Each of the competitors received a cloak of cloth-of-silver and a lapis brooch in the shape of a pair of falcon’s wings. Fine steel daggers were given to the brothers, fathers, and friends who had come to watch them tilt. For their mothers, sisters, and ladies fair there were bolts of silk and Myrish lace.

Because if we compare this "cloak of cloth-of-silver" with previous descriptions of Sansa's maiden cloak, we see this obvious recurring inclusion of either silver or grey as one of the Stark colours:

Cersei Lannister ignored the question. "The cloak," she commanded, and the women brought it out: a long cloak of white velvet heavy with pearls. A fierce direwolf was embroidered upon it in silver thread. Sansa looked at it with sudden dread. "Your father's colors," said Cersei, as they fastened it about her neck with a slender silver chain.

A maiden's cloak. Sansa's hand went to her throat. She would have torn the thing away if she had dared. – ASOS, Sansa III

"[...] and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back...why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright [...]" – AFFC, Alayne II

This is all very in keeping with the theme of the chapter, which is meeting Alayne's betrothed, Harrold Hardyng, so obviously a future marriage/alliance is very much a prevalent theme here. Furthermore, the mention of "Myrish lace" for the "ladies fair" does somewhat remind me of Alys Karstark's wedding garb:

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

"Winter's lady." Jon squeezed her hand. – ADWD, Jon X

I think some other people have mentioned before how even though Jon makes a conscious comparison between Arya and Alys — "reminded Jon so much of his little sister" — the romanticised, flushed cheeked imagery very much points towards a subconsious allusion to Sansa (ETA: anyone spoken on this got a link?). With that in mind, we could see this as foreshadowing of not only Jonsa, but a Jonsa wedding, and Sansa as Queen in the North — "a frosty crown" "Winter's lady" — with Jon as her king/consort. In my current Jon chapter analysis I've been working with the idea that actually as soon as Jon starts romanticising a girl, which is notably different from just noticing someone's physical beauty (e.g. with Val), that is when the subconscious comparisons to Sansa really jump out.

But anyway! Onto those names...or rather, Jon Snow stand-ins.

Rising, [Ben Coldwater] offered Alayne his hand. “Would you honor me with this dance, my lady?”

“You’re very kind,” she said, as he led her to the floor.

He was her first partner of the evening, but far from the last. Just as Petyr had promised, the young knights flocked around her, vying for her favor. After Ben came Andrew Tollett, handsome Ser Byron, red-nosed Ser Morgarth, and Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse. Then Ser Albar Royce, Myranda’s stout dull brother and Lord Nestor’s heir. She danced with all three Sunderlands, none of whom had webs between their fingers, though she could not vouch for their toes. Uther Shett appeared to pay her slimy compliments as he trod upon her feet, but Ser Targon the Halfwild proved to be the soul of courtesy. After that Ser Roland Waynwood swept her up and made her laugh with mocking comments about half the other knights in the hall. His uncle Wallace took a turn as well and tried to do the same, but the words would not come. Alayne finally took pity on him and began to chatter happily, to spare him the embarrassment. When the dance was done she excused herself, and went back to her place to have a drink of wine.

And there he stood, Harry the Heir himself; tall, handsome, scowling. “Lady Alayne. May I partner you in this dance?”

She considered for a moment. “No. I don’t think so.”

If I've counted that right, that's 14 men? Alright, here we go.

First up...Ben Coldwater

I think you're right that Ben Coldwater feels very much like a nod to Ben-jen Stark, who is referred to as Ben a few times I think, and Jon Snow (cold water = snow), both men of the Night's Watch. House Coldwater also traces its lineage back to the First Men, and are sworn to House Royce, who are also notably descended from the First Men, have previously married into the Stark family and still maintain close connections to the current house through Ned's fosterage in the Vale. So, through the Royces, we see another possible connection to the Starks and Jon Snow...Jon Snow who was named after Jon Arryn.

I would also add that we have Ben make this inquiry prior to his dance with Alayne:

“Are there no singers?” asked Ben Coldwater.

I don't know, maybe I'm reaching but...singers feature quite a lot in connection to Jon, for instance:

Mance Rayder, who infiltrates Winterfell disguised as a singer called Abel, an anagram of Bael, aka Bael the Bard;

Bael the Bard and the Blue Rose of Winterfell — a story told to Jon by Ygritte, which very much evokes the tale of Rhaegar and Lyanna;

Rhaegar Targaryen, Jon's real father, was a notably skilled lyre player, whose singing supposedly made Lyanna cry — "The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle," (ASOS, Bran II). He is also theorised to have written the song Jenny of Oldstones, possibly for the Ghost of High Heart, Jenny's friend.

Ygritte — when Jon starts to find her more attractive, when he starts to romanticise her, he observes that "sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him," (ASOS, Jon II).

Val — again, we start to see Jon begin to warm to Val, to see her in more of a romantic + typically feminine light, because of her singing to the baby Monster: "I have heard you singing to him," (ADWD, Jon VIII).

Sansa — oh, my sweet Sansa...when remembering his family, not quite in his dying moments, but a little bit prior to that, Jon thinks "Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow," (ADWD, Jon XIII).

I think it's clear that Jon loves a good song and you know what? He'd probably be asking about the lack of singers too! One final detail perhaps worth noting is the seat of House Coldwater:

[...] the Coldwaters of Coldwater Burn [...] – TWOIAF, The Vale

Obviously, the "song of ice and fire" is not a person, but more the elemental and destructive forces of the Others and the dragons, yet nevertheless, through Jon's parentage, as well as his actions (burned hand, etc.), plus his personality to a certain extent (hot-headed then repressing emotions) you do have this duality of hot and cold, of fire and ice...Coldwater Burn? Could be something.

Ser Andrew Tollett

So, like you said, the name Tollett immediately puts us in mind of Eddison Tollett, also known as Dolorous Edd, who is like Jon, a black brother of the Night's Watch. And he is a good brother to Jon, voting for him in the election for the Lord Commander, as well as becoming his loyal steward for a time, before being sent on a mission to Long Barrow. Interestingly, Dolorous Edd, as well as the Tolletts in general, do have a bit of a Stark vibe to them...

Like a typical Stark, Dolorous Edd is described as having a "long face" (ACOK, Jon III), a face like a mule's to be exact, but also notably a horse's as well:

"[...] Me, I have the mules. Nettles claims we're kin. It's true we have the same long face, but I'm not near as stubborn [...]" – ADWD, Jon XII

He only wished he had time to kill Tollett as well. Gloomy horsefaced fool, that's what he is. – ASOS, Prologue

He is given the nickname Dolorous Edd (dolorous = mournful), and is referred to several times as being "dour" (ACOK, Jon II, Jon III, ASOS, Jon V, ADWD, Jon XII, XIII), an attribute not entirely out of place when we consider some notable Starks and their disposition, as well as their house words:

He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. – AGOT, Tyrion II

Winter is coming. The Stark words had never sounded so grim or ominous to Jon as they did now. – AGOT, Jon VIII

I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty. – ACOK, Catelyn VI

Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages [...] And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. – ASOS, Catelyn V

So, not unlike Jon, Arya and Ned, Dolorous Edd has a "long and solemn" face (AGOT, Arya I), as well as a "dour" personality. Furthermore, even House Tollet of Grey Glen's sigil and words have Stark vibes, since according to semi-canon sources, their shield is "pily grey and black" and their words are "When all is darkest," which arguably carries the same ominous, Long Night warning of "Winter is coming". In addition to this, like the Coldwaters, the Tollets are sworn to the First Men descended Royces.

But beyond this, if we take a look at some legendary and historical Tolletts...we actually have two notable names:

Torgold Tollett — also known as Torgold the Grim, though ironically, because he was famous for riding into battle laughing, and naked from the waist up:

The songs say that Torgold knew no fear and felt no pain. Though bleeding from a score of wounds, he cut a red swathe through Lord Redfort's staunchest warriors, then took his lordship's arm off at the shoulder with a single cut. Nor was he dismayed when the sorceress Ursula Upcliff appeared upon a bloodred horse to curse him. By then he was bare-handed, having left both of his axes buried in a foe's chest, but the singers say he leapt upon the witch's horse, grasped her face between two bloody hands, and tore her head from her shoulders as she screamed for succor. – TWOIAF, The Vale

Ser Jon Tollett — In Fire & Blood, Jon Tollett is recorded as a member of King Maegor the Cruel's Kingsguard. After the king's mysterious death, his successor, King Jaeherys I, offered Maegor's surviving Kingsguard a choice between execution or taking the black. Jon Tollett chose the latter. This somewhat parallels Ned's decision to take the black, to a certain extent.

You could argue that there are more than a few similarities, or future foreshadowings, between these Tolletts and Jon Snow...

Ser Byron the Beautiful

Like you mentioned, Jon Snow has been described by GRRM as a "Byronic, romantic hero". I'm so annoyed with myself, because I had written up some good stuff on how Jon really does possess certain Byronic traits but as I was inserting a gif it ended up deleting most of what I wrote...so I'm still a bit bitter over that, but will rewrite it at some point soon. Take my word for it though, Jon Snow is 100% more of a Byronic Hero (a la Byron's own Manfred), than Sandor Clegane, for example:

GRRM: “Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love.” [source]

Ser Byron, as well as being described as beautiful, is also notably very gallant, the perfect knight:

"Dutiful and beautiful," said an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders. – AFFC, Alayne II

We all know that Sansa appreciates a bit of genuine courtesy, and in fact, she's taught Jon well in that regard:

"Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower."

"That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her. – ACOK, Jon III

I think this Jon stand-in does rely mostly on Jon's connection to the Byronic Hero. So, if anyone is still a bit dubious on that (because Rochester and Heathcliff are trash), just hang in there for my eventual meta on the subject, which focuses on Lord Byron's OG Byronic Hero, rather than the later Brontë/Victorian iterations.

In fact, in terms of Jon's parentage and future romance with Sansa, there's one Byronic tale that may be a particular source of inspiration — The Bride of Abydos. This poem notably includes a romance in which half-siblings are revealed to be cousins...sound familiar?

Ser Morgarth the Merry

Another hedge knight, like Ser Byron, who is sworn into the service of Petyr Baelish. I've got to agree with you here, red-nosed Ser Morgarth's connection to Jon is quite a bit harder to decipher! I have done a little digging though, and it is possible that the Garth in Morgarth is a reference to several Garths that appear in Jon's chapters, as well as Garth Greenhand, the alleged ancestor of legendary House Stark founder...Brandon the Builder:

Garth of Oldtown

Garth of Greenaway

Garth Greyfeather

All of these Garths are rangers/members of the Night's Watch at the same time as Jon, though I think by Dance it is presumed that they are all dead, or at least missing — in fact, Garth of Greenaway kills Garth of Oldtown. Garth on Garth violence!!

Haha, oh god...I think I just got the pun...Morgarth = More Garth! More Garths the merrier! Get it?! More Garths everybody!

George, I hate you.

Ok, so that's what that is. It's literally just a dumb pun, yet it also connects Morgarth to the Night's Watch Garths, and therefore Jon.

Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse

I think you're right that Ser Shadrich's presence connects us to Brienne's quest, as well as foreshadowing potential shit hitting the fan at the tourney of the Winged Knights. But he also notably makes some interesting remarks, both to Brienne and Sansa, which we can connect to Jon Snow's secret Targaryen heritage:

"Where?" Brienne slapped another silver stag down.

He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. "Someplace no stag ever found...though a dragon might." – AFFC, Brienne III

On the surface, in response to Brienne's questioning about the whereabouts of the Stark sisters, Shadrich is talking about a monetary bribe. However, beneath that explicit meaning, is an implicit reference to a stag (Joffrey) failing, where a dragon (Jon) will succeed. Others have talked about this line in more detail elsewhere, but it seems like a pretty good allusion to the foils, Joffrey (a prince who is really a bastard) and Jon (a bastard who is really a prince).

In this exact Winds chapter, however, we also see a conversation between Alayne and Shadrich, which hints at his possible plans to uncover and abduct Sansa Stark in return for a lucrative reward:

“A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

This "stumbl[ing] on a bag of dragons" could also be seen as an implicit nod towards stumbling upon Jon's Targaryen heritage later in the novel, something that is more "likely" than anyone would expect. That claim might be a reach, were it not for the implication that when Shadrich talks about money, i.e. dragons...he isn't actually talking about gold coins, he's talking about Targaryens, but more than that...he's talking specifically about Jon Snow.

Ser Albar Royce

"Myranda’s stout dull brother and Lord Nestor’s heir." I think like Ser Morgarth, the physical appearance of these stand-ins doesn't always play a factor, because it would be kind of unnerving if they all had solemn long faces... So, what is important here is, like you say, the name Royce and his relation to Ser Waymar Royce, Sansa's first crush, who just happens to resemble and parallels Jon quite a bit:

She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. – AFFC, Alayne I

Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. Ser Waymar had been a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch for less than half a year, but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned. – AGOT, Prologue

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. – AGOT, Bran I

"They're not my brothers," Jon snapped. "They hate me because I'm better than they are." – AGOT, Jon III

Although, it is worth noting that the Royces, as a whole, do somewhat resemble the Starks in appearance, at least in terms of their eye colour:

Bronze Yohn Royce, the current head of House Royce of Runestone, has "slate-grey eyes" as well as a "solemn face", (AFFC, Alayne I).

Ser Robar, his second son was "comely in a rough-hewn way" (ACOK, Catelyn III), with "pale" eyes (ACOK, Catelyn IV), possibly grey like his father's.

Ser Waymar, Yohn's third son, as mentioned, was "grey-eyed" (AGOT, Prologue).

It isn't as clear whether or not their cadet branch, which Albar belongs to, tend towards grey eyes as well, though we know that Myranda has brown hair, specifically "thick chestnut curls" (AFFC, Alayne II) — typical looking Starks, like Ned, Arya, and Jon, all have brown/dark hair.

As previously mentioned, the Royces are also descended from the First Men, have kinship links to the Starks, knew Ned when he fostered in the Vale, and Bronze Yohn even "knows" Sansa Stark:

"Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw...he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney." – AFFC, Alayne I

His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansa's memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well. He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. "Lord Royce," she asked timidly, "will you have a cup of wine, to take the chill off?"

Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. "Do I know you, girl?" – AFFC, Alayne I

They also have the house words "We will remember", which somewhat evokes the recurring refrain "the north remembers" (ASOS, Catelyn, ADWD, Davos IV, ADWD, A Ghost in Winterfell, TWOW, Theon I), as well as a possible remembrance of the Long Night, similar to the Starks’ and Tolletts’ words. All in all, as well as evoking a certain Starkness (and Jon-ness), the Royces seem set up to be staunch allies of the Starks going forward.

All Three Sunderlands

Since these Sunderland brothers aren't given names, we can assume what is significant about them, in relation to Jon and Sansa, is their Sunderland name. As you noted, the Sunderlands are the reigning lords of the Three Sisters, and in Dance, through Davos' pov, we hear about Ned's time there during Robert's Rebellion:

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true…but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' " – ADWD, Davos I

This passage has one of my favourite asoiaf quotes of all time..."In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true...but what if we prevail?" Truly iconic. So defiantly hopeful.

But, yes, you're right that this story, and the Sunderlands, connects us to Ned, but more importantly...to Jon Snow. Really, Jon has quite a few Vale connections, all things considered, and he is named after Jon Arryn after all!

Uther Shett

Well, along with his buddy Ossifer Lipps (ass for lips), Uther Shett (utter shit) is an example of George having some pretty lowbrow fun with punny names. During their dance, Uther paid Alayne "slimy compliments as he trod upon her feet"...so not the best partner!

But from one shit to another...I think you're probably right that Uther Shett is meant to recall Chett, indeed, if we take a look at his description in Winds:

The one on her left was no more than eighteen, and skinny as a spear. His ginger-colored whiskers only partially served to disguise the angry red pimples that dotted his face.

His bad skin is somewhat comparable to Chett's boils:

Chett had a wen on his neck the size of a pigeon's egg, and a face red with boils and pimples. Perhaps that was why he always seemed so angry. – AGOT, Jon V

What is also noteworthy about Chett's prologue pov in ASOS, is that we get this linking of literal snow and Jon Snow:

Snow was falling.

He could feel tears freezing to his cheeks. It isn't fair, he wanted to scream. Snow would ruin everything he'd worked for, all his careful plans. It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him [...] The snow's taken it all from me...the bloody snow...

Snow had ruined him once before. Snow and his pet pig. – ASOS, Prologue

This makes any mention of snow beyond this point a bit more noteworthy, especially since Jon is referred to as "the Snow of Winterfell," (ASOS, Jon I), and we also have Sansa's famous "drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover's kisses" whilst building Winterfell out of snow scene, also in ASOS, (Sansa VII). So, Chett is very important when it comes to establishing this connection.

Ser Targon the Halfwild

Targon is only mentioned once and it is in that list of dance partners. He's not connected to any particular house, all we know of him is that he is a knight and that he "proved to be the soul of courtesy." This detail is interesting because it sort goes against his "Halfwild" moniker — he is courteous in spite of his half-wildness. Likewise, Jon is also courteous, chivalrous and knightly even, in spite of the stigma attached to being a bastard:

They still think me a turncloak. That was a bitter draft to drink, but Jon could not blame them. He was a bastard, after all. Everyone knew that bastards were wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust and deceit. And he had made as many enemies as friends at Castle Black...Rast, for one. Jon had once threatened to have Ghost rip his throat out unless he stopped tormenting Samwell Tarly, and Rast did not forget things like that. – ASOS, Jon VII

As mentioned in comparison to Ser Byron, Jon behaves courteously towards Gilly, calling her name "pretty", just as Sansa taught him. He also often refers to Val as "my lady" despite her being a proud woman of the Free Folk. Jon also clearly looks up to and wishes to emulate legendary knights to a certain extent, and behaving with courtesy and honour is very much part of that:

They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne." – ASOS, Jon XII

Furthermore, Jon has this connection to the Free Folk, also known as the wildlings, having spent a fair amount of time with them:

"The wildling blood is the blood of the First Men, the same blood that flows in the veins of the Starks [...]" – ASOS, Jon I

"Some of your own Sworn Brothers would have me believe that you are half a wildling yourself. Is it true?" – ADWD, Jon IV

Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—"

"—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. "Words are wind, and the wind is always blowing at the Wall. Come." – ADWD, Jon VIII

"A wildling. A filthy, murdering wildling." Cregan's hands closed into fists. The gloves that covered them were leather, lined with fur to match the cloak that hung matted and stiff from his broad shoulders. His black wool surcoat was emblazoned with the white sunburst of his house. "I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first?" He laughed. "If you mean to kill me, do it and be damned for a kinslayer. Stark and Karstark are one blood."

"My name is Snow." – ADWD, Jon X

I am not the trusting fool you take me for...nor am I half wildling, no matter what you believe. – ADWD, Jon XI

If Stark blood is also essentially wildling blood, and Jon is half Stark on his mother's side...that would make him "Halfwild" in blood as well as in spirit. And like you said, Targon feels very close to Targaryen/Targ-Jon. So this name is there solely as a hint towards Jon's true parentage — half Targaryen and half Stark. But I think you could argue that the "Halfwild" element could allude to Jon's post-resurrection state as well. I do personally like the idea of Feral Jon™.

Ser Roland & Ser Wallace Waynwood

Like the Royces, and Dolorous Edd, the Waynwoods also bear some notable Stark physical traits, as noted by Myranda in this chapter:

“The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced? [...]"

As we know, looking horse-faced, or in Edd's case, mule-faced, indicates a rather long visage:

Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. – AGOT, Arya I

[Arya] even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. – AGOT, Sansa I

Interestingly though, Jon is never referred to as being called horse-faced, although we know he has a long Stark face. You'd think that Chett, in the ASOS Prologue would have made that kind of dig, since he says as much about Dolorous Edd? This is why I tentatively believe that, although long-faced, Jon isn't as apparently "homely" as these Stark looking Waynwood brothers:

Ser Roland was the oldest of the three, though no more than five-and-twenty. He was taller and more muscular than Ser Wallace, but both were long-faced and lantern-jawed, with stringy brown hair and pinched noses. Horsefaced and homely, Alayne thought.

That being said, I don't think he's as "handsome" as Ser Waymar Royce, or "beautiful" like Ser Byron. But obviously, he's got something going for him because as GRRM says "all the girls love" him, and you know, he's got a good bod probably and if the Giant's Lance cake is anything to go by, as well as all Tormund's small penis jokes...um, well, maybe he's packing, I don't know! (Don't look at me like that guys...it's GRRM not me!)

But anyway! Like you said, Ser Wallace Waynwood is even of an age with Robb, and therefore also Jon:

Robb would be his age, if he were still alive, she could not help but think, but Robb died a king, and this is just a boy.

There is also a teeny bit of Stark blood, though obviously potent stuff, in the mix with those Waynwoods:

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest...it might have been a Templeton, but..."

"Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons." – ASOS, Catelyn V

Shit — "all of whom wed Vale lordlings" — that's probably where all these Stark looking mother fudgers are coming from. So, all in all, I think there's some strong parallels.

And finally...Ser Harrold Hardyng

But let's not forget this bitch.

And there he stood, Harry the Heir himself; tall, handsome, scowling. “Lady Alayne. May I partner you in this dance?”

She considered for a moment. “No. I don’t think so.”

Prior to Harry, who notably fits into the Ashford pattern of Sansa's suitors, we have all these Jon stand-ins, or references to Jon. We can actually separate them out into their different functions, though there is some overlap with Andrew Tollett:

Those who reference Jon's Starkness/the Stark Look™:

Andrew Tollett

Albar Royce

Roland Waynwood

Wallace Waynwood

Those who reference his position/location at the Night's Watch:

Because in the Alayne chapter prior to this one, Sansa learns that Jon has been made Lord Commander:

[..] Oh, and the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s.” “Jon Snow?” she blurted out, surprised. “Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.” – AFFC, Alayne II

So, it is interesting that you then have a number of dance partners connected to members of the Watch:

Ben Coldwater

Andrew Tollett

Morgarth the Merry

Uther Shett

This could be read as foreshadowing for Sansa's future journey north, and specifically to the Wall, where she believes Jon to be.

Those who reference his true/uncertain parentage:

Byron the Beautiful

Shadrich the Mad Mouse

The Three Sunderlands

Targon the Halfwild

All these guys get a dance, but when Harry asks? He is denied. It is only after some A+ dragging by Alayne, and begging by Harry that the latter gets his dance. Yet don't be fooled into thinking this is a win for Harrold:

"Should we ever wed, you'll have to send Saffron back to her father. I’ll be all the spice you’ll want."

He grinned. "I will hold you to that promise, my lady. Until that day, may I wear your favor in the tourney?"

"You may not. It is promised to… another." She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

First off, we have this reminder of the betrothal, but there is a lack of certainty there — "should we wed" — and I would argue that's because...they ain't gonna. Remember all that wedding breakfast imagery, including an umcomfortably phallic lemon (wedding) cake, gift-giving and nod to a bridal cloak? Remember how that was followed by several dances with Jon stand-ins?

"[...] It is promised to… another."

Oh, I wonder who that could be? Honestly...GRRM has very clearly, for those who care to really look, stated someone else's claim here, and it ain't Harry's. In fact, it is the very same person who also evokes Valarr Targaryen in the Ashford pattern.

...it's our boi, Jon Snow.

“Jon Snow?” she blurted out, surprised.

“Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.” – AFFC, Alayne II

You "suppose", Myranda? Honey, I'm certain.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #cappy's thoughts #Alayne I Winds #i'm actually so chuffed with myself on the morgarth = more garth #thanks for this ask!#jonsa supremacy honestly

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anidealiveson · 4 years

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Thanksvember Master Post

Day 1 - Like Coming Home - It has a super rare “wholesome plot twist”! Without spoiling anything too huge, I really like that @julesherondalex took the time to talk about how important it is to take care of yourself first. You can’t love someone else properly, the way they deserve, if you don’t have that same love for yourself. I wasn’t expecting the heartbreaking scene, but the beautiful way in which that topic was was approached neither took away from the story or the joy.

Day 2 - Must Love Dogs - An incredibly fluffy (literally) fic that I loved reading. @rosehallshadowsinger did a really great job weaving Azriel and Elain’s canon personalities into this adorable AU scenario. It is obvious @rosehallshadowsinger took care to create believable personalities for two characters that didn’t get POVs in the books.

Day 3 - Striking Matches - I have to say that I wasn’t at all attracted to an AU fic about firefighters. I was also not a big Rowaelin fan before that, but I was work procrastinating so I gave it a try. Wellll, 30 parts later, I found myself delighted at the writing and sad it was over. I couldn’t believe how well @shyvioletcat cat was able to entirely re-characterize these two into such a different setting, yet still retaining what made them popular in the books. Aelin was perfect in her role as a snarky schoolteacher irritating the stoic firefighter Rowan. And the descriptions of the kids lining up at the firehouse demonstration and Jake’s adorable prodding was icing on the cake.

Day 4 - Close Quarters - I really loved the way @lady-therion wrote Nesta in this modern AU. I particularly like how she equates Nesta’s sometimes standoffish attitude as a very relatable personality trait. She has trouble reading people and gauging situations. It’s well written and the dialogue is unique for a plot that is common in ff!

Day 5 - Like A Lonely House - It’s got a colossal I love Lucy level misunderstanding mixed in with a lot of tension and angst. This Nesta that is full of sacrifice and duty and fire is how I imagine the Nesta who feels that she has a stake in the Fae world would be like. @featherymalignancy wove such a captivating new world in Macar, that it felt a lot like being introduced to the 8th court in the ACOTAR world.

Day 6 - Death Dance - There are several takes out there that touch on Nesta in the Ilyrian camps, but I love how @thewayshedreamed interpreted Nesta’s skills on the battlefield as a calculated dance. Nesta has always been a raging storm, but I love how @thewayshedreamed took care to show us a Nesta that channeled that storm into discipline. If SJM never intended to release a Nessian focused book, I would have considered this a satisfying end to their story.

Day 7 - One Night Standards - I love the way @sassyhobbits writes Aelin with her typical extremely sassy exterior, but also made sure to saddle her with a vulnerable side that runs deep. I normally don’t care for slow burns, but I like the pace of her relationship with Rowan here, and that they had to work hard at it. I also like the plot lines that involved their PR stunts and how the public grew to love them as well.

Day 8 - Goose Chasing - Its the most absurd plot of any fanfic I’ve read! The title is not figurative. Its really does involve chasing a goose. @rhysismydaddy did a fantastic job encapsulating the spirit of silly Cassian and grumpy Nesta in a situation they’d likely never find themselves in, yet making it entirely believable.

Day 9 - Manon Chooses The Worst Babysitter Possible - It’s such a casual and fluffy and hilarious read. It was fun to read about a softer and more delicate Manon. Through this absurd mistake, @sarah-bae-maas did an excellent job really humanizing Manon and postulating a fun in-world domestic scenario.

Day 10 - My Hunger Knows No Bounds - @perseusannabeth manages to take a simple concept and weave a sweet narrative. I particularly love how @perseusannabeth incorporated her personal details into it and took the time to share her lovely culture with us.

Day 11 - Knowing me, Knowing you - We never got to actually see Aelin rule Terrasen (well we got a tinyyy bit) in the books. Though this was modern day, @nalgenewhore tells a fun story of what that could have been like.

Day 12 - Forever (is a long time) - @noodlecatposts takes Elide and Lorcan’s completely polar opposite personalities and spins an interesting (and frankly quite adorable) story. All the rules crack me up. My favorite Lorcan is the one that reminds me of Luke Danes from Gilmore Girls. Currently, he is in the middle of grumpily fixing up her flooded room, so I am sure that my favorite parts are yet to come.

Day 13 - Go Your Own Way - I appreciate @tomtenadia for putting to words a scene that I desperately wanted in ACOWAR or even ACOFAS. A lovely parallel to an equally lovely Fleetwood mac song.

Day 14 - In Which She Makes A Friend - It is no surprise that the fandom wants Nesta to find her place in the Illyrian mountains and even bring about some social change with the female warriors. But the way @bookstantrash got there was such a wonderful and endearing journey. Big fan of the callbacks to how Kaelin was treated and the similarities to a certain Illyrian warrior was when he was younger. We got to see a sweet Nesta, who I’d like to think was attempting to make up for some of her regrets through taking care of Kaelin.

Day 15 - The Ranch - As a huge fan of Sweet Home Alabama, its should be no surprise that I loved this fic by @tacmc . I enjoyed the slow change that we saw in a stubborn Nesta as she opened up to this new way of life and reconnected with her sisters and found a home with Cassian.

Day 16 - Felons - Such a unique interpretation of Nesta and Cassian. I really like the self-sacrificing Nesta angle and @rhysismydaddy did a great job weaving intrigue into the unraveling of what we knew to be a her innocence. I never read The Witness, but this really made me want to.

Day 17 - Of Books and Timber - Cassian offers to build a shelf for Nesta. The way @duskandstarlight goes through the entire range of emotions through Nesta is brilliant. She starts out with cold indifference, but by the end, we get from her a sweet and tender gesture of gratitude. Showing that meeting each other halfway with small gestures is all they ever needed.

Day 18 - You Should Sleep In My Bed More Often - I absolutely loved this quick exchange between Nesta and Cassian after she accidentally injures him. I can’t believe how much I laughed out loud when Cassian said “I need you to protect me closer”. @charincharge perfectly captured the teasing childish essence of Cassian and Nesta’s hilarious victim-blaming was so on the nose that I might have thought this was taken right out of ACOSAF.

Day 19 - The Right Swipe - I really enjoyed this take on the inner circle mixed with the super modern online dating plot. I especially love that @redisriding created genuinely realistic characters (body issues, social anxiety etc). Great read!

Day 20 - Goldfish Prompt - What a fun read. I love how frantic and much personality Feyre had here. I love how dedicated to her fish she was, and how that made her super endearing. Cute read from @azrielsiphons

Day 21 - The One With The Snowstorm - What I really like is that Cassian actually says that he is sorry for his part in Nesta’s exile. I am not bitter about it, but it was an interesting turn. They need to meet halfway here and I rarely see it so well written as @joysbell has done here!

Day 22 - Prompt - A lovely and cute and sweet prompt written by @crowsvalentine! I love the ramp up of suspense just to get to the hilarious payoff. Its adorable and worth the quick read.

Day 23 - Fix It - is one by @thewayshedreamed that I love in its simplicity. It’s a small little argument Cassian and Nesta get into, but its still compelling. It’s sweet and super endearing the way the two of them are written and the subtle way they work through it. Great read!

Day 24 - I Do Bad Things To You - The mob angle may have been done before, but I don’t think with as much care and regard that @tswaney17 has been giving it. I how the canon personalities of the characters translate so well into this modern AU. Its very obvious that @tswaney17 has done her research. I especially love all the details around Elain as a surgeon. The story is compelling and well written and every chapter has me wanting more.

Day 25 - Love Her Like She should Be Loved - This is an excellent fic that I really loved. @julemmaes did such a great job translating some of the canon tension from ACOFAS into a modern world. It’s ripe with emotion, drama and quite a bit of heart. I love how earnestly Cassian comes to Nesta’s defense even in the face of going against his entire family. I like the reference to some very real psychological struggles. I think a lot of people can relate to it.

Day 26 - Literally In Love - I really enjoy the subtle mystery that follows this entire journey. I enjoy that @julesherondalex keeps us guessing, while simultaneously weaving a sweet and tender story about two shy teachers and just a slew of mishaps worthy of a Shakespearian drama.

Day 27 - The Shadow Bond - I love Azriel, and this is such a wonderful fic by @radientwings focusing on how his shadows might work. His shadows are the one thing that I am most curious about him in the series, so it was lovely to read such a well written interpretation of them.

Day 28 - Exes and Oh’s - Just a shout out to @highqueenofelfhame for this lovely story about rekindling past love. I like that even though the plot was uncomplicated, the emotions were not. I love that Aelin didn’t have a perfect reason for what she did, but sometimes that is just how things are. This is a story about taking a second chance, whether it’s deserved or not.

Day 29 - Fever - I really love this fic called Fever. I enjoyed how @lady-therion portrayed Nesta. She hit the entire gammut of characteristics (snarky, worried, vulnerable, caring, short-tempered, flirty, you name it!) but it really worked here. I found this nurse Nesta to be endearing and relatable and the dynamic between her and Cassian was very sweet. Just go read the damned thing.

Day 30 - Baby Steps - I really really love this fic. @runesandfaes did such a great job in just so few words to show a really sweet moment between Chaol, Yrene and their daughter learning to walk. I love the parallel back to when Chaol was learning to walk and the cameo of the golden couch. So sweet.

#thanksvember #fanfics #fanfiction

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doux-amer · 5 years

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I FINALLY SAW CAPTAIN MARVEL AND I GOT EMOTIONAL WATCHING IT. Okay, calming down now. As a lot of you know, my expectations were low as the marketing was lackluster, I was nervous about certain choices that were made, etc., and even though I avoided any CM chatter, I heard murmurs of mixed reactions...so my expectations were pretty much on the floor when I went to see it. I just hoped it would be fun even if it was okay, but uh...I REALLY ENJOYED IT. It’s not perfect and when I was talking to Alanna, she said people said it reminded them of CA:TFA (it really does in certain ways and I get why they said it, but TFA, for all its cheese and its weaknesses, is one of my favorite MCU movies lol). BUT! I! LOVED! IT! I don’t care about the unevenness because all that fell to the wayside by the sheer, all-encompassing joy I felt watching it.

This is how I wanted to feel watching Wonder Woman because I adored Diana as a little girl and it didn’t happen although I kept quiet about my disappointment because I wanted people to go support it anyway as it was super important that it did well. THIS THOUGH. I wanted to punch my fist in the air so many times and laugh and hug and hang out with Carol. I JUST. GOD.

I’ve experienced unfettered happiness and fun before with Marvel—that’s how I felt with The Avengers and with Spider-man: Homecoming. But this? This was the first time I was a fan of someone from the comics before seeing a movie and seeing it come to life the way I so hoped she would. It was extremely special because of that particular element and I got emotional because of it which I didn’t expect. I really felt disconnected to Carol from what I saw in the trailers and was afraid the movie wouldn’t resonate because it would be very white feminist-y. It wasn’t. And that hero on the screen? THAT WAS MY GIRL CAROL. I’m kind of getting slightly misty-eyed writing this. But GOD, I waited years for this and it’s just overwhelming wth!

I’m going to do my usual bullet points. If you want to avoid spoilers, scroll past this long post:

I was turned off by the silliness of the trailers and Carol’s more serious moments came off as unconvincing in them, so I expected not to connect with her. I WAS WRONG. I GOT MY GIRL. I’M WEEPING! She’s emotional! She’s feisty and bullheaded. She can be serious and fueled by anger. She can be fun even when she’s a fierce warrior, but not to the point that it’s distracting! Her humor is very much her own and very much Carol. It’s not witty. It’s goofy. She clearly finds herself hilarious which I LOVED. SHE’S SO DORKY, SMILING AT HER OWN JOKES.

The movie stayed away from what could have been a cringeworthy white savior undercurrent by making Carol culpable in the suffering of the oppressed. I know the Skrulls are aliens and look like them unlike the other aliens we’ve seen who you can’t exactly forget are played by POC characters, but lbr that narrative is about refugees and...look at current events lmao. As a Kree warrior, even if she unknowingly participated in the Kree-Skrull war ignorant of the truth, she hurt a lot of innocent people. And that’s great! It’s not that she was this pure person swooping in to save the weak or whatever. This is something she had to grapple with once her memories came back and her eyes were opened and she knew she had to make amends.

It reminded me strongly of Tony in IM1 with Obie dealing under the table to terrorists and becoming a part of a corrupt machine without meaning to. It didn’t matter that that was the case; he still felt responsible and accountability became a huge part of his story.

This origin story reminded me of Cap’s, not because of the whole military aspect to it lol but because of how she’s “just human.” Carol never gives up and Steve doesn’t either. They get knocked down? They’ll shake it off and stand back up. I might’ve gotten a little emotional here too which I didn’t expect. Plus she wanted to prove to herself that she could do whatever the hell she set her heart on. The other parallel was the whole fighting for the government/military who end up not being so great and going rogue thing.

It made me sad because we won’t get the Steve-Tony-Carol friendship we so deserve, but lol while the credits were rolling, my sister was like “Yeah, Tony’s going to die” because she’s the obvious successor. Originally she said it was because of his powers when I asked why and then she agreed when I pointed out that it’s not just because of his powers, but in terms of personality and a whole slew of things that reminded me of him AND Steve (it’s like Peter in CA:CW and SM:H). She feels like the linchpin holding the MCU together like them too.

Like the fact that Carol was the reason for the Avengers’ existence! That was obvious, but that scene where Fury’s typing on the computer and he looks at that photo of her before changing the name of the initiative? HM....I WAS VERKLEMPT.

Also, I loved how they made her get her powers. It wasn’t an accident. No one sacrificed their life for her. She got her powers because of her own actions. She got her powers because she was being a HERO. SHE IS WHO SHE IS BECAUSE OF HERSELF. LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!!!

Speaking of that, I was surprised by the Mar-Vell plot twist because we all thought that would be Jude Law and I expected Annette Bening to be someone else (who she sort of ended up being anyway) lol. I didn’t mind that they did that. Love that she was Carol’s mentor.

I loved the female relationships. CAROL AND MARIA’S SCENES. MARIA BELIEVING IN HER. MARIA TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT WAS FOR HER AS A SINGLE MOM AND A WOMAN IN THE AIR FORCE, BUT CAROL DIDN’T CARE ABOUT THAT. THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THEIR LIFE TOGETHER...BINCH...I MAY HAVE BLINKED OUT A TEAR!!!!! Carol being cute with Monica! Monica urging her mom to be a hero while Maria wanted to watch out for her because she has Monica to think of now, not just herself. Monica being responsible for Carol’s Captain Marvel getup! Carol and Maria getting involved with Lawson because she was their ticket to proving themselves and moving up!

And yet the movie didn’t get too hammy and heavy-handed with feminism (I hate it when some people write stuff that way because I find it extremely sloppy and ineffective)! We didn’t have to have a female villain just because we had a female lead superhero. We didn’t have to have moments where Carol says preachy lines. That moment where she just raised her eyebrow at the motorcycle dude? Fantastic. She didn’t have to deal with that scumbag. That moment where Yon-Rogg tried to pull a typical Man Move TM by trying to make her prove herself to him (and trying to take ownership of her development and strength)? She didn’t have to be all cocky and say some quip or cheesy af line. She wasn’t even that angry because he’s not worth it. He’s an ant beneath her foot. He’s irrelevant. She just says it straight up that she doesn’t have to prove anything to him, and that was what made that so powerful for me. It resonated because she said it like it was the truth, plain and simple, and it WAS.

No romance shoved in not because Carol didn’t need no man as a Strong Woman but because there are more important things at stake and honestly, the romance was with her wife Maria her relationships with other humans and the Skrulls were the emotional crux. They’re an important part of who she is and of rediscovering her identity. God...like her relationship with Fury? So well done. It was the buddy cop movie that I so wanted. I loved their jokes and their mutual respect for each other. I love how they became so important to each other and we saw Fury deeply care about someone and showing that. One of my favorite scenes is the one where they’re washing dishes together.

They also didn’t shove Coulson in too much which I was afraid of. We got to see where Fury started off, a greener one but one who was as compelling because he was so human. We got to see Fury deeply caring about someone and so openly (this is the guy who said, “I'm just an old man who cares very much about you“ to Tony in AoU). It was nice seeing how the whole belief in superheroes thing truly started with the both of them (Coulson had his whole Cap thing, but I feel like this was the moment where he imagined having a hero like that in his own time was possible).

Uh let’s see. I love Goose. I don’t particularly care for animals in movies even though I know people obsess about them, but they didn’t overdo Goose’s part.

All the little callbacks to the comics! KSD showing up!

The period part of the period piece wasn’t overdone which I appreciated. Carol typing made me laugh, the slow download and AOL shoutout made me laugh, and damn, the fashion and music? I was over the moon. You didn’t have to go over the top to make us immersed in the 90s. Also, my heart sang when we got Carol on a bike on the open road in a leather jacket. The bliss I felt is indescribable tbh.

Ooh the special effects were good for the most part! Loved seeing her fly and loved seeing her gut ships and destroy missiles. It felt real. Space didn’t feel cheesy af to me which was a problem I had with GotG 1.

Speaking of flying and punching things, it was so viscerally satisfying to see her do that. One of the things that really did it for me was how she enjoyed her powers. It was exhilarating seeing her fly for the first time (similar to seeing Tony taking out the suit for a test flight in IM1). Her little laugh/whoop of excitement? That’s what it would be like to discover you can fly! That grin when she breaks free of the Kree dampening her powers and she can feel her powers at full force running through her? That’s what it would be like to be at 100% and have all that. I wanted to jump out of my seat and feel what she felt. It made her powers not feel very OTT-overpowered? Carol has....too many powers and is super strong to the point that she’s overpowered, but uh...idk I didn’t have a problem with it here, mainly because of this.

The post-credits scenes were good too like....WOW, HUH. I watched this in Dolby (my first Dolby experience!) and I GOT EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY THIRSTY OVER STEVE IN A BEARD AND OUT OF HIS SUIT AND A TIGHT WHITE SHIRT!!! I DON’T KNOW HOW I KEPT IT TOGETHER BECAUSE I ALMOST DIDN’T WHICH WOULD’VE BEEN EMBARRASSING. BUT PHEW!!!!!! STEVE? WHAT A *****!!! Thought the scene was nice too even though I wish Carol got better hair. I assume she flew and that’s why she looks so bedraggled, but uhfhghdaoifhas I hated her hair in this and want Carol to get the nice hair she deserves (preferably a short butch cut...thanks. C’mon, Brie wants it too). OH, ALMOST COMPLETELY FORGOT TO MENTION THAT IT BROKE MY HEART TO HEAR HER SAY, “YOU CAN’T TELL ME WHO I AM. I DON’T KNOW WHO I AM” AND TO NOT KNOW WHERE SHE BELONGS. SHE’S NOT KREE, BUT SHE’S NO LONGER FULLY HUMAN NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF HER POWERS BUT BECAUSE OF HER LIFE ON HALA AS WELL. I loved how we saw her journey to accepting that and who she is now and how that was all tied up nicely with her wearing her old leather jacket the Rambeaus kept for her and her new suit as she goes into space. What a great moment and a nice visual cue to a comics cover I really like of Carol wearing her jacket over her suit and staring up at the stars. I feel like trying to find her place and her identity are important to her so I loved that we got that here and we’ll hopefully see more of that.

There are a bunch of negatives here (a bunch of stuff about the Tesseract that go against canon, the Skrulls (makeup, personalities, nerfed powers and threat level imo, etc.), subpar writing and acting at moments, etc.), but I seriously don’t care at all because I enjoyed the ride. My happiness dwarfs every little thing I could have nitpicked. I don’t care!!! I had so much fun! I liked the movie a lot!

#captain marvel spoilers

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twdmusicboxmystery · 7 years

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Season 8 EW Photo Shoot - TD Clues

Good morning Everyone and happy Saturday! How is everyone's weekend going?

Okay, so over the past 3 days I've gotten about 7 of these Asks about the EW pictures. I already had the first one when I was answering Asks on Thursday, but I decided I wanted to wait to answer it and do a full post. Then I got a bunch more. (These are obviously not all of them, but all the rest had the same gist.)

Actually I'm glad I waited because just yesterday the FB group had some really great insights that I wouldn’t have had before.

I will warn you, though, that this has been discussed all over the fandom. If you've read a lot of other discussions about it, I doubt I have much to say that hasn't already been said. This is what I see in the pictures, what insights the wonderful ladies in my FB group have had, and what we've been discussing.

So, quick summary for those who've been hiding under a rock and don't know what this is about. EW, as per usual, has done a photo shoot spread for TWD S8. These are some of the photos.

So here’s the complete run-down from my end:

The instant they hit the airwaves, a certain dark ship started screaming that because MMB has her arms around Norman, the show is foreshadowing C@ryl becoming canon this season. For the Nonny who needs reassurance, let me promise you that nothing could be further from the truth.

Here’s a random joke I made about it in my FB group:

Here are some simple facts:

1. Carol and Daryl have an iconic friendship, and people love seeing them together, even if it's just as friends. So the show has used them heavily promotionally for the past few years. And yet, they've never gone canon. This year is no different.

2. More than once AMC has hinted or outright said that Carzekiel will be pushed this season. I don't know if they'll actually go canon (most of the other long term couples have taken more than a season to actually hook up--Richonne = 3 seasons, Carnid = 2 seasons, Bethyl=oh geez! The one exception, I think, is Glaggie) but it should become very obvious that it will be the two of them in the long run. And who knows? They might go canon. I, for one, hope they do. And, based on the symbolism we're seeing here, I think there's a good chance they will.

Let me explain. One of the above Nonnies asked about symbolism. And the symbolism should go a long way to setting your mind to rest about the possibility of C@ryl.

At first I just kind of rolled my eyes at this picture, thinking, "well, the C@rylers are gonna have fun with that one, aren't they?" But then an IG follower pointed out that Carol is holding Sophia's doll.

Now, the third Nonny above asked if it was the magazine putting these symbols in, or tptb? While of course we can't know for certain, the instant I saw the doll, I knew it wasn't an EW thing. Not entirely. There are too many symbols we've seen in the show in this shoot for them to have been arbitrarily chosen by the magazine or the photographers. And remember this magazine had it's hands in all the secrets of Jon Snow's return to GoT, so I have a hard time believing these symbols aren't purposeful.

So for Carol, remember I said HERE that her whole arc has been and is about Sophia. This surely proves it. She's holding Sophia's doll, so this Sophia arc is obviously going to come into play in a big way in S8. My logic is that, even though this has been Carol's arc all along, we've never seen her hold the doll before, so it's got to be more front and center this season. Meanwhile, we have this kid, Ben's little brother, who just so happens to be played by Madison Lintz's brother, so he LOOKS just like Sophia, and is going to be part of Carol's story this season. He may be what finally helps her to heal and brings her arc full circle. And that's why I think Carzekiel could go canon this season. I think part of her healing will be a relationship with Ezekiel. No way to tell for sure when it will happen. Knowing Gimple, it could be spread over two or three seasons, but it also might not be.

So after noticing the doll, I started studying this picture and symbols started jumping out at me right and left.

(The funny thing was that by the time I actually went into my FB group, there were already like sixteen comments about the symbolism and I'd been tagged a bunch of times, lol. I was actually late to the table for this discussion. And I'd only logged off for like four hours! Well, that's what happens when new TWD stuff comes out, I guess. ;D)

The most obvious symbol to me was Daryl holding the champagne. Definitely milder than moonshine, but who cares? It's alcohol. Can't help but see it as a callback.

What most people in my FB group pounced on is the fact that Carol is feeding Daryl with a spoon. Not only does it remind us of Beth's D.C. spoon, but you don't get a more mother/child image than spoon feeding. Symbolically, many of us have thought for a while that Carol will have a relatively big role in bring Beth and Daryl together. This almost suggests her bringing Beth to him.

The other thing that caught my eye are the flowers he's holding. The reason is that I recently re-watched 7x05, Go Getters. Remember that when Maggie wakes up in the medical trailer in that episodes, there are tons of parallels to Beth waking up.

Also, when Maggie awakens, the first things she sees are purple flowers. These ones in the EW shoot look exactly like the ones in 7x05. I there's more white in the ones in the EW shoot, but other than that, practically identical.

So if you ask me, we have Daryl holding alcohol (Still), and flowers a Greene sister saw when she awoke in a medical place with a doctor.

Everything around Norman is screaming Beth to me. We also have peaches on the table and in one of Lauren's pics (peach schnapps)

and strawberries (totally a Bethyl thing).

And I’m pretty sure there's pomegranates in there too (Carzekiel).

So we were all doing pretty well with this. Pretty confident in our symbolism, etc. And then something else happened today. One of the EW photographers posted about the symbols used in the photo shoot. As you might imagine, none of the explanations were particularly TD-ish.

But guys, that's okay. Let's face it, they're never going to come out and say, "oh, the champagne is a callback to Still because Beth will be back this season." Just never gonna happen. So they're giving very convenient explanations for what the symbols are. And while they might be mostly true, they also kind of don't make sense.

For example, the stuff Melissa is feeding Norman is chocolate pudding. An obvious callback to Carl, and that's fine. But if they were going to callback to Carl, why not just put him in the photo shoot? He's one of the Atlanta originals and has been on the show longer than Maggie or Michonne. Why use pudding specifically?

This photographer also said the flowers were Carol's "look at the flowers" flowers. Um…if they're actually using that as a "look at the flowers" symbol, that suggests Carol will kill Daryl in this season. I chuckle even typing that because it's so ridiculous. I think we all know that's not happening. So my point is that these explanations aren't hitting the deeper symbolism.

Also notice they say that Shiva represents the Sanctuary. Well, Shiva...chewed on people who live at the Sanctuary, but she represents the Kingdom. Really not hating on this person. Just pointing out it’s not the most reliable synopsis.

Keep in mind, we've seen them do this before: give convenient explanations that are mostly plot-based, without really going into what the deeper symbolism is. As I told my FB group yesterday, the most recent example that comes to mind is an article that was released a few months ago explaining what the A on Daryl's shirt at the Sanctuary meant.

They said it meant "asshole" because the Saviors always try to degrade their prisoners. Now, I'm sure that's true. They aren't lying. (Other shirts we see have letters like F and S on them. Not hard to imagine what those stand for.) But the fact is that we saw A’s at the prison, at Terminus, at FG's church, and at Alexandria. Not all of them can possibly stand for a name call/body part. So this was a convenient explanation that doesn't REALLY talk about the deeper symbolism.

If the photographer knows anything at all about the symbols (isn't just guessing) then I’m thinking tptb gave her these simple explanations in case she was asked questions. And there probably is truth to them, but it's deeper and more complex than a simple, one-sentence answer.

The doll isn't just a callback to that one time Carol lost her daughter. It signifies Carol's entire 4 season arc and that fact that it will be front and center this season. She'll have to face Sophia's loss and find a way to finally move past it.

I think the flowers are about resurrection, at least partly. If they're also tied to Carol, well, the whole "look at the flowers" thing didn't start until Lizzie and Mica showed up. So I also think it could symbolize that she'll finally talk to Daryl about the girls.

Rick is holding the sheriff's badge. That's not TERRIBLY suspicious, but it's been some time since the badge was specifically used to signify him. They've focused more on the red-handled machete and such the past few seasons. So I can't help but think, new sheriff in town?

Aside: I also watched the Fan Favorite video for Carl today. While there's nothing inherently Beth-ish in it, I will say that the damn sheriff's hat is focused on A LOT. Just saying.

Maggie holds Glenn's watch. At first I didn't read much into that. As I told my group, I think it could just signify who she's become since Glenn's death and who she'll continue to be. Her whole purpose now is about her child and about the person she'll become specifically BECAUSE Of Glenn's death.

But the more I thought about it, the weirder that symbol seemed to me. Not only did they go out of their way to close Glenn's arc in a beautiful way, but she even gave the watch away (to Enid) in S7. So to see her holding it here again almost feels like their *ahem* resurrecting it in some way? And I don't even mean that it's necessarily Beth-ish. Just that it's kinda weird. At the very least, it's a time symbol. Maybe showing that the time screw is over and we'll finally go back to Grady and see what's up?

Now let's talk about the pudding one more time. While discussing this, @thegloriouscollectorlady said something that really got my wheels turning. She suggested that the pudding definitely was a callback to Carl (it totally is) but that that only goes to show that they're pushing Daryl and Carol as a son/mother relationship. The person who at the pudding before, after all, was the only "kid" on the show. And of course Carol is spoon feeding it to him.

That made me think more about Carl's whole pudding episode. That episode has a LOT of Beth parallels in it. Check out my analysis HERE.

In a nutshell, Carl sees a dead song bird beside a cage (foreshadowing Beth's “death” at Grady). Right after that, we see lots of resurrection themes. A walker comes at him and he shoots it in the left side of the forehead (right where Beth was shot) and thinks he got it, but it jumps right back up again. This is also where he goes into the bedroom with the nautical theme (Oceanside foreshadow) and has to escape the walker there.

He beats it with an actual lamp (Lamp Theory) plus there's a yellow bat in the scene. (Yellow = escape, bat = Negan. And what do you know? Oceanside showed up at roughly the same time as Negan; symbolism fulfilled.) Plus, he loses a shoe, and we see yellow-handled scissors near his foot.

That enough TD symbols for you? Right after that, he sits on the roof and eats the pudding. So this was very much about Carl becoming a man and learning to survive by himself. He did all this himself, without Rick's help. It instilled a confidence in him about his own ability to survive.

So now they're applying the pudding symbol to Daryl. Remember what Carol said in Consumed (you know, while they're looking for Beth?). "You used to be a boy. Now you're a man." So I feel like the pudding here is showing that Daryl has matured emotionally.

Remember that tptb and even Norman himself have said many times that Daryl was still emotionally immature in S4. They say that if he had romantic feelings for Beth (which AMC confirmed that he did) he didn't fully understand them. Think about that. Follow the symbolism through to conclusion.

If they're using the pudding symbol for him now (he's eating it, as Carl did) then it suggests he's reached full emotional maturity now. Guess what that means? Time for Beth to appear. He will now be capable of sustaining a romantic relationship with her, where in S4, he really wasn't.

This one shows Norman pretending to smoke a birthday candle. The candles from the cake he and Andy have all over them. Ostensibly it’s birthday cake to celebrate TWD’s “birthday” with 100 episodes, right? But who was the one character that talked about birthdays before starting a certain fire? Just saying.

Other interesting symbols:

1) Grapes. This really isn’t a symbol we’ve seen extensively around Beth or anyone else, but it could be termed Beth-ish because there were grapes in her arc in s4. In Inmates, which had the wacky non-chronological story-telling (X), Ty, Lizzie and Mica ate grapes. Later Beth and Daryl find the same ones and Beth picks some for anyone else they may find. Which they don’t.

2) Carrots are also on the table. (X) I’m gonna add that although we don’t actually see “carrot flowers” as far as I can tell, we do see both carrots and flowers in this shot. And Gimple had planned to play the song “The King of Carrot Flowers” during the dinner scene in Alone. (X). He only didn’t because of copyright issues. Just saying.

3) Apples, of course. (Apple Theory). They’re really around Richonne here, and we’ve seen them specifically around Richonne in the show, especially in 6b. But we’ve seen a lot of apples entwined Beth-related symbolism (as well as other characters like Maggie) so having them here at all is kind of suspicious.

Finally, there’s a bandage around Andy’s hand. No idea if that’s an Andy thing or a Rick thing, but if it’s a Rick thing, it’s a callback to S4, when Rick wore a bandage on his hand for most of 4a. Beth’s bandage at Grady mirrored that. And maybe it’s not for the show, but it doesn’t seem to be a significant injury (not like a broken bone or anything) which means they could have easily covered it up or photo-shopped it out. I think it’s more likely it was purposely put in.

So all of this rambling boils down to this: No, I'm not worried that C@ryl will go canon this season. Everything points to C@rzekiel. Yes, I think all the symbols we're seeing in the shoot are point to Beth's return. And yes, I think they were purposely put in by tptb, no matter what anyone else says.

We've seen them too often in the show for them to be arbitrary, and everything else we've said in the past still holds true.

But hey, it's just a theory. Just my opinion. I mean, I've only been analyzing the crap out of this show's symbolism for two and a half years. What the hell would I know, right? ;D

Everyone have a fantastic weekend. Four weeks and counting, my Bethyl peeps! Xoxo!

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #bethyl #bethyl forever #bethyl for life #bethyl reunion #bethyl reunite #beth x daryl

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