#it's funnier with steph because she is a puzzle master and riddler is basically her uncle

[emma-d-klutz]

I think you're onto something with your post and imo the actual reason why he works better as an ally than an antagonist isn't the position in the story itself but the writers' different approach to the character. usually when comic book writers write a villain they will write them so that they are feared and hated by the audience, with some sympathy strewn in in some cases, so that the audience knows they're a threat. The problem in the Riddler's case is that if writers do that he'll usually end up as one of 2 options: a genuine 'mysterious mastermind' villain who to work as a threat has to be calm and serious, which strips him of the emotionally unstable playfulness that's usually one of his core characteristics, or an unstable sadistic maniac serial killer or terrorist, which either ends up making him just 'joker but with the color scheme flipped' or ends up making him appear as a violent whiny man child who thinks he's smart but is really a pathetic idiot, all three of which aren't perfect options (although I don't mind the occasional iteration being the first type). But when he poses as an ally the writers don't have to get the readers to hate him, so the writing can make him weird and playful without making him seem pathetic and incompetent. And I think that's an approach they haven't really tried for riddler as an antagonist yet: making him a proper villain or threat without trying to make the audience hate him. You know, one of those villains you just can't truly hate. How would that work? Well I think making him mainly a high stakes thief that steals important artifacts or museum pieces that really have to be found again and can only be found by Batman due to riddler being basically untraceable by anyone that can't solve his elaborate clues would work. throw in some network takeovers and hostage situations, some of them grand game show style scenarios to get in his full showman deal. have him be generally not very violent or sadistic but make sure to show that if he wanted to he could be terrifying, maybe by letting him have his occasional big temper tantrum so that it's clear that should he ever snap he'd be extremely dangerous. Let him loose his cool just for a second and backhand a hostage with his cane before snapping right back into his regular fun persona as if nothing happened. Let him make death threats where it's never really clear if he'd go through with them or not, because so far he's never made these threats reality but what if one day he does? This approach I think would give you both the full playful eccentricity and 'little guy'-ness while also allowing for an undercurrent of unease that never really has to be cashed in but is enough to make sure the audience knows he is or could be a genuine threat, without making him too serious, too pathetic or too 'joker'. and additionally it would make him 'harmless' enough that him playing occasional ally via helping Batman with a case doesn't feel ooc, while also making him dangerous enough that his classification as a proper villain is validated. because you're right about the 'consultant' storylines being the most fun ones for the character, but for them to work properly imo he needs to be well established as a villain first or else he'd come across as too much of a regular sidekick.

Ok first off let me just say that I am grateful and delighted that someone read through that whole long post and then even went so far as to give me a big long response, and I have read over this ask several times with joy. So thank you.

You know what? Now that you've said it, I think I agree with you that part of the fun of Riddler being an ally sometimes is that he's still the Riddler, and the inherent, "What is he doing here?"ness of it, and maybe if he became more usual ally than occasional ally, that special sauce wouldn't hit right, and he'd wither into sideshow informant with a quirk. It's a possible regression and a risk I hadn't considered.

I was thinking if he became more permanent as an ally, though, he could be one of those, "I'm on my own side," characters, you know? Maybe like how you can't be too shocked when John Constantine double crosses you. Hm, but that could have its own problems... It's a riddle.

Honestly, reading through your suggestion for how to use him as a villain, I started like thinking up little ideas based on yours. Like when you said he'd steal priceless artifacts, I was thinking, "Unless the artifacts or the robbery itself pose a danger to civilians, Bats might put it on the back-burner and piss him off..." but then you mentioned, "network takeovers and hostage situations, some of them grand game show style scenarios," and I thought, "What if he steals missile codes and makes a puzzle race with it as the prize?"

(With the endless amount of Batman IP content, this has probably already been done before somewhere some time but-) I'm thinking he has the codes on a drive, and he invites "Batman +2" and a few mercenary and thief type villains to compete to get to it. Now Batman doesn't think Riddler would ever use those codes, but he knows some of the others might and if not would definitely sell it to a bidder who would. So now everyone's stuck doing riddles and escape room bullshit again while Riddler hams it up.

At some point, a villain contestant, someone like Deathstroke, just brute forces and tries to get the drop on the Riddler in person and demand the codes, and he's just like, "Hey, you can't do that. No, don't hurt me, I'm just a little guy :( Oh ow why is it always the stabbing and the nose with you people? Time for the anti-cheating software :(" and presses a button on his cane, and we just don't see Deathstroke after that. (He's alive, ofc, but this is not shown.)

At the end of the story, once Batman and two sidekicks of his choice have bested the game and beaten up several other villains inside, Riddler (still covered in dried blood) graciously hands over the flash drive and assures him he made no copies.

Then he's like, "Don't look mad -" upon being immediately grabbed by the collar, "There was never any real danger."

And the group is like, "What do you mean? These aren't fake."

And Riddler's like, "Of course they're not fake. But I always believed you would win. <3"

And Steph!Robin is like, "I'm going to kill him. Can I kill him?"

And Batman says, "No."

And Stephanie says, "I'm gonna."

#thank you so much for the ask anon #long post #riddler #batman #it's funnier with steph because she is a puzzle master and riddler is basically her uncle