#night77788

[yr-obedt-cicero]

This is slightly related to Hamilton and Laurens but where are you on the Angelica thing? I only got interested in these people last year and I’ve read an embarrassing amount of Hamilton bios and the Laurens one too. But I don’t get almost all the fandom declares there was no affair, Angelica loved her husband and was ride or die for sister, which is pure fantasy. In reality Angelica defended Hamilton after the Reynolds scandal. Robert Troup wrote several letters to friends bitching about them and how much worse it was making Hamilton look, even mentioning he confronted him with no success. Angelica refered to Hamilton as her dearest in a letter with that line in French, conveniently her sister wouldn’t be able to read it. It’s just as obvious as he had a relationship with Laurens, which most people accept. But they flatly reject the Angelica situation. I think it must be because of the play. Sorry for the essay, I loved your Hamilton bipolar post. It seems so obvious to me and it’s hardly mentioned I think because of Founding Father/mental illness stigma.

Ah yes, the famous question.

There will never be any definitive answer to many historical mysteries, especially that of affairs. As history itself, as is, is already a struggle to make a conclusion to. Let alone trying to decipher something that would have been attempted to kept secret and swept under the rug away from the public's eyes, but also historian's. With that in mind, nothing is a solid answer, but rather only a theory or belief we have in mind — and thus unfortunately — Hamilton and wether or not he had an affair with Angelica, will remain unanswered and completely up to our interpretation and opinions.

In my opinion; I do not think Angelica and Hamilton had an affair, nor any real romantic connection at all. I pretty much side with @aswithasunbeam and @runawayforthesummer on this debate.

Firstly, it would have been too risky to have an affair in the first place, especially with how involved and a part of Elizabeth was with their relationship and correspondence. It is evident that Elizabeth not only read, but also shared a part of Hamilton's correspondence with her sister. For example; a letter dated between the 19th to the 20th of June, in 1796, Hamilton implies Elizabeth reads her letters that come in with the opening sentence;

“Dear Angelica

If you knew the power you have to make happy You would lose no opportunity of writing to Betsey & me; for we literally feast on your letters.”

(source)

Even more so, Elizabeth sometimes even added postscripts to Hamilton's letters apparently! She would have had to have saw their flirtations with such open access to her husband's letters. As mentioned in a letter from AH to Angelica, dated the 25th of June, 1796;

“Eliza will write by this opportunity or at least I trust add a postscript. Yet She continues lazy at the pen.”

(source)

And again, on the 8th of December, in 1794;

“Love to Mr. Church. Betsy will add a line or two. Adieu.”

(source)

Though I think Hamilton was self aware of how his teasing would be perceived, but still saw it as mere jest regardless. As then, in 1800, when in a letter dated the 26th of January, Hamilton mentions forwarding a letter he wrote on the 22nd to Angelica. Inside the letter was Hamilton affectionately rambling about Angelica's portrait being across from the table as he dined, with flirtatious undertones. But interestingly, he warns Elizabeth of this message, and claims it be a sort of teasing, and for herself specially to deliver it but not anyone else.

“Deliver the inclosed yourself as it contains a little waggery.”

(source)

With Elizabeth having this much access and knowledge of Hamilton's and Angelica's correspondence and relationship, I find it heavily doubtful anything more than playfulness was intended. Unless she was in on the whole thing, and I highly doubt that even for 18th century standards — It would not have been acceptable to have an affair or romantic connections with your sister in-law — But something that was quite common for the time period, would have been men and women playfully flirting with no real romantic intent.

Also a very overlooked detail is the context and emotions of the letters between Hamilton and Angelica. They are, if not always, usually lighthearted flirtations meant as a jest. As mentioned above, Hamilton saw his flirting as “waggery”, nothing more but joking. It doesn't help much when Hamilton and Angelica are even constantly referring to themselves, or signing off letters, as “dear brother” and “sister”.

Even when Hamilton does his playful flirting, he leaves plenty hints of it merely being playful and not anything else.

“If it will give you pleasure, assure yourself that you are as much in my good graces as ever and that you must be a very naughty girl indeed before you can lose the place you have in my affection. I earnestly join Betsey in the favourite wish that we may meet again—And heaven permitting, it shall be so.

Adieu very dear sister in law”

(source)

When toying around with innuendos, Hamilton makes sure to bring Elizabeth back into light, and in the letter itself the “dear sister in law” is italicized as if emphasis of where they stand.

Even with the well known ‘a comma after dear’ scenario — that, mind you, has been twisted and turned out of context so much thanks to the Hamilton musical's in the song Non Stop — wasn't as romantic as many make it sound. Despite what the musical paints, in the real situation was; Angelica is away from not only home, but nearly her whole family, and America. Her family is busy with their own matters and loneliness has taken over her. She's depressed and dreadfully homesick, and this should be known as she writes off the letter dated the 2nd of October, 1787;

“I do not write by this packet to either of my sisters, nor to my father. It is too Meloncholy an employment to day, as church is not here to be my consolation: he is gone to New Market. You will please to say to them for me every thing you think that the most tender and affectionate attachment can dictate. Adieu, my dear brother! be persuaded that these sentiments are not weakened when assiged to you and that I am very sincerely your friend.”

(source)

The line she writes, in her time of need, that everyone theorizes over is;

“Indeed my dear, Sir if my path was strewed with as many roses, as you have filled your letter with compliments, I should not now lament my absence from America: but even Hope is weary of doing any thing for so assiduous a votary as myself.”

(source)

To which comes Hamilton's response on the 6th of December, 1787. Hamilton is rather outrageously flirty, even writing another famous line that is quoted when theorizing the ‘Angelica Church + Alexander Hamilton affair’;

“I seldom write to a lady without fancying the relation of lover and mistress. It has a very inspiring effect. And in your case the dullest materials could not help feeling that propensity.”

(source)

To which he then goes in to tell a humourous tale of Kitty Livingston, in the hopes of cheering her up and making her laugh. His intent isn't romantic, but rather to help soothe her depressive mood. And I think that is the so called “waggery” they have, their flirting is lighthearted, playful, and meant to make the other laugh. This is why AH is seemingly displeased about the comma after dear, where his tone changes and he writes;

“You ladies despise the pedantry of punctuation. There was a most critical comma in your last letter. It is my interest that it should have been designed; but I presume it was accidental. Unriddle this if you can. The proof that you do it rightly may be given by the omission or repetition of the same mistake in your next.”

(source)

So not only would an affair have been unlikely due to Angelica's time overseas, a romantic relationship also would have been doubtful due to Elizabeth's involvement in their correspondence and that their flirtations were not of serious nature or intent. I think Angelica understood this as well and merely also liked to play around and flirt, as we see in a letter Angelica wrote to Elizabeth from London, dated July 30th, 1794. Where Angelica teases her sister in banter of “sharing” Hamilton, but nonetheless, reminds her she's kidding and assured her not to be jealous;

“I have a letter my dear Eliza from my worthy friend M. de Talleyrand who expresses to me his gratitude for an introduction to you and my Amiable, by my Amiable you know that I mean your Husband, for I love him very much and if you were as generous as the old Romans, you would lend him to me for a little while, but do not be jealous, my dear Eliza, since I am more solicitous to promote his laudable ambition, than any person in the world, and there is no summit of true glory which I do not desire he may attain; provided always that he pleases to give me a little chit-chat,”

(source)

I'd also bring up the point; Hamilton was infamous for being a flirt. I think just that both he and Angelica had a love for flirting around playfully and it united them majorly in their close friendship. We know him to flirt with many woman, and it was common for the time period too. There is his whole ordeal with Kitty Livingston just to show it, and other cases that there was gossip of Hamilton even being an adulterer due to him being prone to flirting. But I don't think all the claims of Hamilton being an adulterer, or sleeping with woman as he pleases, is inherently true. They really just drive from Hamilton's flirtatious nature rather than actual evidence of him sleeping around with people, I think Hamilton was rather just too bold with his flirts. There is even a case of Hamilton flirting with Susanna ‘Suki’ Livingston two weeks after offering a confession of a nearly year long extramarital affair, the Reynolds Pamphlet! Dated the 29th of December, 1792;

“Of all delinquencies, those towards the Ladies I think the most inexcusable. And hold myself bound by all the laws of chivalry to make the most ample reparation in any mode you shall prescribe. You will of course recollect that I am a married man!”

(source)

Even Troup writes to King of this as well;

“Though not yet in the field of Mars he maintains an unequalled reputation for gallantry - such at least is the opinion entertained of him by the ladies.  When I have more leisure, I will give you the history of Baron & Mrs. Church as published by our Gallant General.”

(source)

-

So overall, no, I don't believe they had an affair. And I think Hamilton's relationship with Laurens is not really comparable to his with Angelica. Angelica's “affection” and relationship with Hamilton was not even romantic, it was teasing, and play flirting. Hamilton and Laurens weren't nearly as lighthearted with their affection and flirts, Hamilton actually many times insisted on how sincere he was with his devotion and love for Laurens. So I don't find them to be comparable in any sense really.

If anything, I find the musical to be leaning more on the belief that Angelica and Hamilton had an affair then not. With the whole fantasy made up storyline of one sided love, it had encouraged impressionable fans and I feel like it's probably the main reason this debate has sparked up in recent years.

#amrev #american history #american revolution #alexander hamilton #historical alexander hamilton #angelica schuyler #Angelica Church #Angelica Schuyler Church #historical john laurens #john laurens #history #cicero's history lessons #queries #night77788

[yr-obedt-cicero]

I’m so bad at how Tumblr works, I don’t know if you got my last answer on the Hamilton/Angelica thread. The smoking gun to me is the letter she wrote to him when she was on her way back to England. The French translation is “Here I am my dearest, all alone and my heart so bitter for having left you.” Clearly, that was not meant for Eliza as she doesn’t speak French. She followed it up by saying if it were up to her she wouldn’t stay in England for two weeks. She’s devastated to be returning home after 6 months to her husband that people insist she loved. And I don’t think you said this, but no, this isn’t about the musical! It was a big topic of gossip at the time. Who calls their sister’s husband their dearest? Who says she fears that Hamilton seeing her was like a dream he no longer believed? I do agree it’s not clear to me he was in love with her like his letters to Laurens do. But there are many missing letters and the Hamilton family heavily edited the ones that exist. But Angelica does come across in hers as being in love. I know I keep on with this and I apologize lol. But I don’t get it! Angelica didn’t blast him over his cheating on Eliza the way he does in the play, she defends him and says she’s lucky for having him. That was the letter that made up my mind, same way the first letter to Laurens did. Everything thing else I read after just strengthened my opinion. But the one question no one really answered is this. Why is Angelica calling her sister’s husband her dearest?

The actual translation of that line was; “Here I am, my very dear, all at sea, and my poor heart very moved by having left you.” I have learned some of the smallest details of French from reading many historical letters, and she writes “Mon tres cher” which means “My very dear”. Dearest in French is “Chère”.

I'm not sure why you insist Elizabeth did not know French, and how Angelica used this to hide it from her. Because there's nothing to support that. Elizabeth was part of the Schuyler family, one of the wealthiest families in the colonies, and could most definitely afford one of the highest educations. Since she was the daughter of a very important war general and New York politician, she must of had to be around for a lot of foreign guests with her family, like the Marquis De Lafayette. It is highly unlikely she did not choose to learn French. Knowing French and other languages was a common standard for nearly everyone, especially the wealthy. If Angelica knew it — Why wouldn't Elizabeth? She would meet with many of French Diplomats, like Edmond-Charles Genêt (Also known as Citizen Genêt, was the French envoy to the United States appointed by the Girondins during the French Revolution).

And credit to @runawayforthesummer for debunking the commonly believed myth that Elizabeth was in Albany, whilst Angelica stayed in NYC for the entirety of summer in 1789. If anything, Angelica was more often in Albany, and Elizabeth was heavily hesitate to leave her husband as always. And I believe Elizabeth helped pay for those rented rooms.

Also, one last thing; the background and context are especially important. Background helps us understand where these real people, and not characters, come from. If you don't look at the context, you cannot find their motives, or understand their feelings. If you disregard that so easily, I find your argument to already be unstable, with or without historical accuracy.

I would also like to give some suggestions of checking your biographies sources, sometimes historians and biographers aren't completely truthful either (Cough cough Chernow). This is just a suggestion for future reference.

I find it hard to believe Angelica did not love her husband that she went as far as to elope with. But if anything, Angelica's unrequited feelings for Hamilton is more likely than any plausible affair. But I'm still dubious to even believe that.

#amrev #american history #american revolution #alexander hamilton #historical alexander hamilton #elizabeth schuyler hamilton #elizabeth hamilton schuyler #elizabeth hamilton #elizabeth schuyler #angelica church #history #cicero's history lessons #queries #night77788