#they'll see transmisogyny and say that what they have in common with trans women is misogyny

[molsno]

something that bothers me about the concept of transandrophobia is that it's often defined as the intersection between transphobia and misogyny, which just isn't true. there's already a word for that intersection, and that's transmisogyny.

I see a lot of trans men who believe in the movement argue that their oppression is largely defined by misogyny, and I can definitely see where they're coming from. one common complaint I see from trans men is that they'll never be able to come out or transition because their family will punish them for "giving up their womanhood," essentially valuing them for their femininity instead of recognizing and accepting their inherent right to live according to their own desires. this kind of misogyny, where people refuse to view you as a fully independent person capable of making your own decisions about your life and your body due to the value they perceive in your potential desirability to men, is the foundation of patriarchy. and it's incredibly painful! knowing that many people won't take you seriously because they view you as a woman is frustrating!

it's just... that experience is not unique to trans men. that's just plain old misogyny. it's the same logic underlying the constant attacks on reproductive rights: if you have a uterus, then your destiny is to become breeding stock for men and be a dutiful housewife and mother for your husband's children, so you're not entitled to make choices about your body that would inhibit your ability to do so, such as getting a hysterectomy or having an abortion. it's not even unique to people who were afab; because of ray blanchard's transsexual typology, most trans women for decades were unable to access gender affirming care at all if they were unable to meet a very restrictive definition of womanhood that was entirely determined by their potential sexual desirability and willingness to be subservient to men, and ONLY men.

sure, it is blatantly transphobic to deny a trans man's right to self-identification, and it's misogynistic to refuse him this on the basis of his desirability to men. and I have no doubt that that's deeply painful! but the fact that these two forms of oppression are happening simultaneously does not mean they are intersecting. in order for that to be the case, they would have to compound on one another and form something new which is greater than the sum of its parts.

that's what transmisogyny is. because yes, people deny our right to self-identification, and decide our worth by our desirability to men, but transfeminine oppression is so much more than that. despite what people say, they don't really see us as men; they see us as a threat to the patriarchy because our mere existence stands in stark opposition to the notion that manhood and masculinity are superior to womanhood and femininity. they don't fully see us as women either, though; our inability to bear children means that we aren't entitled to the very few benefits afforded to cis women, so we have no place in society. as a result, we exist as women that you can abuse without consequence. we exist as fetish objects; just things that you can fuck when you're looking for an "exotic" sexual experience.

I'm more than aware that there are trans men who don't define transandrophobia as the intersection of transphobia and misogyny, and some even outright reject the notion that they experience misogyny at all, on the basis that it's misgendering. I can certainly understand that point of view, but the alternative definition would imply that misandry is a widespread form of oppression, which is undeniably false.

what I find most troubling, though, is that trans men who do state that misandry is real then assert that trans women's oppression is at least partially built upon it. I shouldn't have to state this, but if you're going to reject the notion that misogyny is a cause of your oppression on the basis that it's misgendering, then I have every right to reject the notion that misandry is a cause of mine.

that's really the problem with people who believe in transandrophobia, though: they're entitled. rather than recognize the common ground they have with others and stand in solidarity with them, they monopolize the conversation to claim that the oppression they experience is wholly unique. by doing so, they're able to talk over women by positioning themselves as experts who understand the subject far better than we ever could, which allows them to have a taste of the male privilege they feel they've been wrongfully deprived of. that's precisely why most transandrophobia truthers are white; trans men of color generally have a better understanding of intersectionality and are usually aware that this form of male entitlement will never be available to them because the racism they experience will result in them being perceived as a threat if they ever try to speak over white women.

trans liberation will never be achieved so long as you try to appeal to the patriarchy in the hopes of advancing in the gender hierarchy. even if you succeed, you will always find your new position is conditional; step out of line, be too trans, and it's gone. if you really want all trans people to be free, you need to acknowledge the people who have it worse than you and fight for them. if you want fellow trans men to have the freedom to come out and transition, you need to actively combat misogyny - even the kind that doesn't affect you personally: transmisogyny. if you want that freedom to be extended to all trans people, not just the white ones, you need to understand racism and stand against it whenever you see it. real liberation only happens when the white supremacist patriarchy is burned to the ground, so grab a torch.

#txt #transmisogyny #my writing

[drdemonprince]

"yeah she’s said very explicitly on her podcast that she wants to create a space where “trans women and terfs can interact with one another” . and its like maam. you think they can just have rational debate about whether or not one of the two of them is a human being???" WTF. I've never listened to her podcast (seems like that was a good call on my part) and I could only begin to guess at why she'd think that's something trans people would want. I wonder what the intended end game is there, if any. Like, if she thinks trans people debating their personhood with terfs will humanize the terfs toward them, or if she just wants everyone to come to some rosy "agree to disagree :)" truce where the terfs keep agitating to legislate transphobia and the trans people don't say mean things to them about it and everyone acts like that's an equal exchange. Either option sounds like some bullshit.

And yeah, for my money Seerut is still worse if only because she constantly invokes her own mental health credentials as a way of validating her transphobia, as if her professional background makes her more of an expert on trans peoples' lives than actual trans people, and as if the mental health establishment doesn't have a deep history of heinous queerphobia.

clementine would SAY she wants terfs and trans women to interact so they can "find common ground" and realize that they share the same class interests.

which is exactly what many of the big name detrans terfs like carey callahan and her ilk used to say a few years ago too. they'll pretend to be above what they perceive as petty identity based grievances and say they see it all as a barrier to having more meaningful conversations about class but in practice what many of them want is to convert trans mascs to the terf point of view and to detransition and to terrorize the trans women into compliance and either run them out of the community or outright abuse them.

i dont think clementine has thought thru the endgame even that far but many of her friends certainly have!! and its especially disgusting that she & her partner jay will cry transmisogyny anytime jay is criticized for anything, in light of all this. its just all so gross.

[doggiewoggiez]

There's an experience that's super common if not universal among larger, louder, more masc transfems, that I never see talked about. It comes typically from smaller, more petite and fragile transfems, the kind who put a lot of effort into things like passing (which there's nothing wrong with, and i hate that i have to specify that for this exact reason), where they're just looking for any reason to construe something you said as problematic in some way because they don't like you personally. It could be that they feel threatened because they see you as a big dangerous man and themselves as your potential victim. It could be that you and your presentation confuse them and that makes them angry. It could just be that this is how they treat everyone they're not currently having a discord petplay rp with. I've seen it all and more. But no matter what you do or say, if you reblog a post, they'll scour OP's account to find something problematic from 2018 that you wouldn't have found unless you were really digging, if you make a joke they'll say it was offensive or in poor taste and then turn around and make the same joke to universal applause, if you talk to them at all, they'll say you've been acting creepy and they're threatened by you.

Really, if you differentiate yourself from that vocal minority of the trans community that's all programmer socks and polycules, if you express an emotion that isn't uwu or >///< or ^~^ or :3, you're branded as hateful, violent, threatening, creepy, weird, or something else that just means you're the wrong type of tranny. God forbid you don't like something for some reason other than it's whatever the fuck "problematic" means. No matter how good your behavior is, they're repulsed by you, they revile you, but they've built this identity around softness and acting like a Steven Universe character, so they can't just say that outright. They can't even admit that to themselves, because it's unfashionable and doesn't match the soft aesthetic they're going for. So they make up reasons you're a bad person and then convince themselves before trying to convince others. And when they find or make up their nail in the coffin and you're branded a "bad person" it's anyone's game, they can be as shitty to you as they want without feeling guilty.

Obviously this is the oldest trick in the book, and it's gone by a million names. Tone policing, internalized transmisogyny, chronic grass touching deficiency, paggro, weaponized fragility, what have you. Trans women universally experience this from "TME" folks (because it's unfashionable to say AFABs, even though cis women and nonbinary people and transmascs can be equally hateful and vile about this), but I think it's something far more insidious when it comes from our own community. Does it make you feel like more of a woman to punch down like the others do? Does it make them smile and nod and pretend to approve of you long enough for you to feel something? Are you just going through the motions long after the people you learned this from have given you the same treatment, stalwart in the act of deciding that anyone who makes you feel that pang of discomfort somewhere between your stomach and your chest is a Bad Person, and it's not your fault that they're always the people who don't try for your ideas of femininity and trans womanhood? Are you too afraid to admit to yourself that, no matter how many posts you reblog about how there's no right or wrong way to be a woman, you don't believe it in your heart of hearts?

I'll never understand it, and it's not something that can be talked out. It's a treatment I'd bet money just about every transfem over 6'1 or 250lbs has gotten from someone or other. It's sad, too, because there's no concise way to articulate it, and if you say anything, you're just adding fuel to the fire, and you KNOW these girls who act like this just fully buy into it. It's completely cultlike behavior imo. If you or a friend seems to be suffering from this, if you look deep at your own behavior and question it, I advise you to really work hard at unlearning that shit. If the hurt you're causing others won't convince you, maybe the hurt you're causing yourself without realizing will.

#needed to write up a long rant because ive had this shit on the mind a while #this is about a specific incident but if you're thinking of a specific one then it's probably the wrong one #u should reblog this if you know the feeling