flushed-for-the-trolls - Tumblr blog

flushed-for-the-trolls · 1 year

Text

A Character Analysis of Flowey/Asriel and Chara Dreemur (and why some people view Chara as evil (or its source)

So in the fandom, there's a bit of a disparity in how people view characters, a notable and parallel example is Asriel Dreemur, Chara's spiritual brother so to speak. Asriel is interpeted at a sad fluffy goatboi who really just got fucked over by seemingly every conceivable force in the universe. Chara is sometimes interpeted as an evil psychopath with very little to redeem themselves.

So why do people view Chara differently?

It's context. We got so much more time with Asriel Dreemur and similar controversial or "bad" characters, but we got none at all with Chara.

There are only six instances (that I am aware of) where we can glean anything from the game as to what Chara is like. Four of them come from the genocide route, but the two that comes from the True Pacifist Route doesn't paint them in a much better light either.

The first is where Flowey recognizes us as Chara immediately after exiting the ruins, which is telling that Flowey seems to recognize the first genocidal human as his dearly departed best friend.

The second is in New Home on the Genocide Route. (I didn't include Neutral or Pacifist as it's from the perspective of the monsters, and it doesn't really talk about who Chara was, or what they acted like, just how the Underground felt as a consequence of them being there with the monsters.) At this point in the run, Chara seems to be mostly in control of Frisk, however, is not kind or warm at all to their supposed best friend, even scaring Flowey with their "creepy face". That creepy face could either be the face where Frisk does not emote (which Sans points out) or Chara's signature smile which we see whenever Chara is shown, which is, admittedly, very little.

The third is after the Sans boss battle, where Frisk (perhaps under total control of Chara by this point) strikes down both Asgore and Flowey. If we are under the impression that Chara is controlling Frisk, then that means Chara willingly struck down their best friend and father figure. Even if we assume Chara is just an onlooker, they simply brush off the fact that Frisk just killed the only two members of their family, even though that not even a second after we kill Flowey, Chara comes up and is fully capable of killing us.

The fourth instance is the fact that Chara is fully willing to endlessly revive the world for the player to murder everyone over and over again.

The fifth is after the Asriel Boss Fight, where Chara's OWN BEST FRIEND admits that Chara wasn't all that great, not evil, but this is the same guy that was willing to destroy and reweave the fabric of the universe just to have Chara by his side again, that's a lot to do for one person, and a lot to pull an Uno card on.

The Final one which comes from the completion of a Soulless Pacifist Run, is where Chara kills everyone regardless of the fact that you went out of your way to spare every monster.

But now that we've discussed Chara, we need to talk about Asriel.

I don't think I need to say this, but Asriel and Chara's circumstances are wildly different.

For Asriel, he didn't start out as a mass murderer, he started out helping and befriending everyone. And his genocides didn't necessarily start as him wanting to kill monsters, he became curious after (presumed) countless cycles of doing the right thing.

For another, potentially the biggest factor is that Asriel lacks a soul, which seems to be the source of ones empathy. Even when you give Chara your soul at the end of a Genocide route, they still actively choose to kill everyone you befriended at the end of the Pacifist route, while at the end of True Pacifist, Asriel learns and accepts that he is wrong, even believing that he's not deserving of forgiveness, and he won't fight it if you decide that you don't.

In the end, Asriel does what's right by relinquishing all the souls, even though it means he must return to the worst possible version of himself, an unfeeling, uncaring flower. Asriel must make that sacrifice, even when it's understandable for him to want to be selfish, to want to cling onto this new chance at life.

This gets even better though. At the end of the Omega Flowey fight, Flowey will actively protest the idea of you sparing him, and won't try to dodge if you choose to strike him. Even as an apathetic flower, he still seems to understand why you'd want him dead, but not why you'd ever consider sparing him after he's tried killing you several times.

We never see anything like this for Chara, no growth, no development, so it's hard to see redemption for a character that seems to be uninterested in it.

That's not to say that Chara is necessarily evil, but their actions most certainly are.

When it comes to these sort of grey areas, I like to think about two quotes that work in conjunction from the same game

"Just because you do bad things, that doesn't make you a bad person"

And

"No matter how far you push your feelings down... they'll always come back somehow. And what you do with those feelings... That will be your truth."

Both of these work in tandem to say that it's not your actions, but how you respond to them which tell on who you are at heart.

There's all of that and probably even more, but to add to this, it's also about the sympathy a character can garner. Chara chose to enact out a plan which would result in their death and that of countless humans, seemingly disregarding how it would make Asriel and everyone else feel. Asriels death is a direct result from the plan being put into action, and it often feels like Asriel got the short end of the stick throughout life. Being forced to watch your friend die of their own volition, being forced to carry out the plan, being slaughtered by the humans, and fading away in front of your mother and father. Not even mentioning everything with Flowey. And finally, being so close to being whole again, only to have to fade away into a flower once more, all for the sake of doing what's right.

In the end, Asriel accomplished what he and Chara set out to do, but he isn't even able to celebrate it properly because he's the only monster that can't be there with the rest, all because fate is a bit of a shithead, and really screwed him out of his own life.

For Asriel Dreemur, there is no happy ending for him. He started out good and got corrupted, and finally regained his own sense of self after coming to terms with what he did, Chara at most started out okay, and became corrupted. Like I said, we just don't know enough about Chara Dreemur to map out their psychology, or who they were as a person.

In contrast, we don't really see anything that makes Chara nearly as sympathetic. They seemingly chose to die of their will, but Asriel never got to make peace with that.

So I've tried to go through and catch everything, but if something seems out of left field, or sounds like it's responding to something, it's because this was initially a reblog about a post where the user not-so-subtly suggested that because some people view Chara as female, that it was somehow the only/main reason Chara would be viewed as evil for their actions throughout their influence on the various routes

I don't understand how anyone could come to this sort of conclusion, and as should be obvious, I think the discussion is more nuanced than it being boiled down to sexism. That isn't so say it can't be sexism at play, but I don't believe it's got some allure or captivating hold on the Undertale fandom.

In any case, after finishing the rougher draft of this post, I figured it might be considered rude to throw a whole ass analysis as a reblog. So I decided to make it an original post.

I know this is likely not new, or unique, but I still put so much effort into this analysis to just throw it away.

I also understand that I may be incorrect about some of the things I said, I may have neglected to mention things, I am always open to a kind and common debate about my post, please keep it civil, however.

If you read this, thank you so much for taking the time to, have a good rest of your day!

18 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 1 year

Text

So one things been niggling at my mind whenever I read All Might Critical posts and I wanted to throw my opinion in the ring.

All Might was NOT in the wrong for telling Izuku that he could not become a hero without a quirk.

The proof? Literally every fight Izuku has been in this far. Tell me that Izuku could have survived even the villains at the USJ, not Nomu and Shigaraki, but the gutter punks. He wouldn't have. It wouldn't have been safe for him to enroll into UA as a hero course student, he wouldn't have even gotten in. At best it would be as a non-hero class course, but of course, that's not his dream, it's to be "someone as great as you [All Might]".

It's not cruel, it's realistic.

On top of that, people bash him for leaving Izuku on the roof, but this makes no sense because if he was left by a tall tree, or a deep pond, no one would jump to "this kid is going to commit die". It's ONLY because of the very specific set up from Bakugou. But AM has NO reason to assume Izuku is depressed or suicidal in the slightest.

AM has made some really bad decisions, yes, but these aren't it, they're massive projections from fans.

I'm in a bit of a rush so this might be slightly edited but I felt the need to comment on this.

#bnha #bnha all might #pro all might #bnha fandom #mha #bnha discourse #mha discourse #mha all might #mha fandom

15 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

I see people mocking the whole anti/proship weird war going on and I used to agree... then I got told to commit die because of it on a post that WASN'T EVEN RELEVANT??? Like, ffs I WISH I didn't have to speak on this, but some people just evidently needed to be hugged more as kids, and it's not my fault if someone throws that vibe at me while I'm doing my own thing, entirely separate from this stupid fucking thing.

No one fucking cares about your moral high horse, stay in your salty ass corner away from other people if you can't act like a decent human being. Fuckin' 'ell man...

#proship #proshipping #discource #rant #fandom discourse #tw proship #antis dont interact #shipping discourse #shipping discussion

18 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

Boyfriends isn’t “Bad LGBTQ+ Rep” It’s perfectly fine. You just don’t like effeminate Queer people.

They’re not hypersexualized, they’re gay adult men in a committed relationship, gay people have sex, Todd. I’m sorry to have to break it to you.

You’re not helping out gay people, you’re trying to silence abnormalities in favor of appealing to the boring norm. I am not ashamed of wearing leggings, of having a sex drive, of being DIFFERENT.

Research and actually UNDERSTAND the words you throw out before you decide to die on this (quite frankly) pathetic hill.

It’s so sad that you want to white knight so hard that you’re feeding into homophobia. You are helping no one, you’re a pawn for homophobes to use.

#I wanted to make this for a while but never got around to it #The first criticism specifically gets me so riled up #boyfriends webcomic #boyfriends webtoon #boyfriends comic #boyfriends #boyfriends discourse #I will not apologize #i will not take criticism #it reeks of internalized homophobia tbh

256 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

"Just stand up to them!" Is horrible advice for anyone in a parent/child relationship where the parent holds ALL the power. That's also not touching on how powerful Gabriel is in his influence. This is just... it's so insulting to anyone that's actually experienced living in an abusive household. It compares with "just be happy" being said to someone with depression.

This is straight up victim blaming, there's no question about it.

Adrien CAN'T do anything, he doesn't have any actual power to stop his father, even as Chat Noir. Because no one knows how Gabriel really is, least of all the boy that's been conditioned for a year at minimum to believe it's all normal.

Let's talk about this, because boy does it make me ever fucking angry. What kind of message are you sending to kids when you say you have to "save" the object of your affections? Especially in sending this message out to girls? Because it's not so much just a message of saving Adrien from his father in general: Marinette tries to take on the challenges and problems of everyone like somehow it should all be on her shoulders. The next issue, and something which is a core problem in the series, is why the fuck can't Adrien just stand up for himself? This isn't so much a critique on manhood or anything in me saying that, but his passive nature (except when he doesn't get what he wants, like Ladybug's attention) is what leads to him being so caged in the first place. Overall as we've seen in the series as well, it's not like he wanted to be saved by her, but by Ladybug. The hero of his dreams. And it seems as though the only time he starts to fall for Marinette even a little is when she devotes some time finally to trying to save him, like in Risk. AND. And. It's not like Adrien is as "caged" anymore since he became Chat Noir. So you have a girl who already has a lot on her plate, trying also now to save a boy who's the object of her affection (but she can't talk to him directly because, apparently, Chloe fucked that up sometime in the past), who only really appreciates her back when she's trying to save him and also not fucking up his otherwise charmed life, like the whole "high road" Lila debacle. Some fucking fairytale.

#ml salt #ml fandom salt #adrien deserves better #i agree marinette is fucked over by the writing #but the idea that Adrien has any fault in that is bullshit and a dangerous message to send to kids in abusive relationships #because 9/10 times it WONT work out well for the kid #this wouldn't be an exception

103 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

Basic summary/DNI/Info about My Account

For the sake of clarity, and so people will stop clutching their pearls whenever this stuff gets brought up, I want to make a pinned post so people know what to expect when they come here.

I’m Tav, Xef, or Karkat. I’m a He/They (either works), I’m gay and I am an adult AMAB individual. My asks are always open, and I won’t turn down an ask unless it’s eggregious in some way (like if it’s meant to be rude, just be nice.

If you can’t tell, I have no idea what the hell I’m doing, but that’s okay because we’re gonna get through this roller coaster together!

My fandoms are: Omori, Hollow Knight, I dabble in HomeStuck/HiveSwap (as if that wasn’t obvious), and am interested in a few anime (MHA and Demon Slayer).

I want to preface that I am a neutral proshipper. I don’t care who you are or what you ship, so long as you properly tag and whatnot, if you’re an anti, good on you, I don’t mind. It’s not my spiel to get knee deep into shipping wars, but if I see people acting like asses, or have people act like that to me, I will respond how I see fit. Be nice to me and I will be nice to you.

DNI if: you’re sensitive to gore, stalking, emotional manipulation, physical constriction prompts, etc. I’ll ship anything so long as it is an interesting dynamic, I have no bounds, so you have been warned.

I’m just vibing on Tumblr and trying to have a good time, if you can’t respect that, DNI and block me, or simply refuse to interact. If you need me to tag something, ask kindly and I’ll be as accommodating as is reasonably possible.

To Be Clear: I am NOT responsible for any distress or discomfort caused by you browsing my account (unless I have failed to properly tag my posts), if you see something you don’t personally like, I advise you to leave immediately. This is my own account, and I will post the things I want to, I hope that whoever you are, that you have a good day!

#Proship #blog intro #pinned post #proship safe

1 note · View note

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

Cry about fictional crimes elsewhere. Geez I wonder why that's the ONLY thing you responded to, could it be? That my speculation was right? Absolutely nothing to say about me refuting your whole "one dimensional characters" or your trumped up claims about the characters being fetishized. Because it's all hogwash which has been easily dismantled. Next time study up on the subject matter before trying to argue, it'll help it go much more smoothly

Boyfriends Webtoons Discourse

The more I read this ‘controversial’ webtoons, the more I’m convinced that the people that are so offended by it have NEVER even read a single chapter in full.

I understand not liking it, that’s fine, the issues people have with the creator are personal and if you can’t forgive X thing that he did, then that’s with you and I won’t bother arguing, since it has the potential to be personal/hit close to home for some.

But, like, when it comes to the ACTUAL webtoons??? Like, have any of you read the basic introductory chapter?

“It’s not serious!” “It’s cringe!”

Literally the FIRST BF profile card says “Epic Gamer Skillz” “Tweetch Subs” and “D’ARKNESS LV.” Could it be any more obvious??? Of course it’s not serious, of course it has cringey dialogue, the majority of these chapters have memes in them. The point is that it’s NOT serious, and it NEVER pretended to be in the first place. The damn characters speak like personified Discord Servers. “WTF” “EZ”. In a close follow-up chapter one of the characters literally says “OWO Choco?” Like???

So of course it’s not serious, of course it’s over the top and cheesy, to be over the top and cheesy IS THE POINT. But it seems like no one has actually read the comic, they’ve simply seem a few reactions and out of context clips from the comic and decided they know how everything works… Disregarding the fact that they’ve never read it…

Next is people claiming that the comic “fetishizes gay people”.

First of all. The Author is gay. Second of all, literally who cares? If someone is dumb enough to gather all their opinions of gay people based on a webtoons comic that’s basically a longstanding meme, their opinions never mattered to begin with.

Lastly, I get an icky feeling in my stomach whenever I hear this talking point. I remember feeling it back when I was in the hell that was the MHA fandom.

It was during shipping wars when an eerily similar point was made concerning gay couples. “They’re fetishizing gay people!” “All this shipping is because of the Fujoshis!”

You know who was saying all this? STRAIGHT PEOPLE.

Yes, for whatever reason which is beyond my understanding, when the topic of gay couples is brought up, it’s always Heterosexual people who think they know what’s best for the LGBTQ+ community. They often talk over gay people, and what happens when gay people don’t agree with them? “I bet you’re just a Fujoshi!” They say, unaware that this stranger they’ve never even seen the face of, is, in fact, gay and male.

So even now, I have to wonder if the people that are declaring this as sexualizing gay people are even gay themselves, if they’re not, do they realize that THE CREATOR is gay himself? Not only that, but as a personal account, I can recall many open and proud LGBTQ+ people (primarily gay) that act like stereotypes. There’s NOTHING wrong with how these characters act, nor those very real people. It’s an insult to these people’s real expressions.

Tell me, would you go up to a gay person and tell them that their form of personal expressions are “wrong”? Who on earth would any of us be to talk down to others like that?

That is also to say that LGBTQ+ people are under NO obligation to act “normal”. We should not be expected to suppress our real forms of expression for the sake of “not letting everyone else down”. If we all had to act normal, if no other depictions of being different were allowed, life would be worthless and meaningless.

This partially off topic tangent is to Segway into the talking point (or implied talking point) that this webtoons is publicizing unflattering stereotypes and is therefore bad.

Firstly. If you think this story is some sort of blow to LGBTQ+ Pride, the problem is with you. There’s nothing wrong with how you express yourself so long as it hurts no one. If you think this makes everyone under the rainbow banner look bad, you should look inward and wonder why you need to gatekeep how others express themselves (and to be clear, yes, I know I am referencing fictional characters with no will or mind of their own, but I believe the general point still stand firm when transferred over to real life).

Two, as I covered, these aren’t mythical stereotypes, there are actual people who live like this, and they’re valid and entitled to living how they see fit.

But you know what? I hear you, in spite of the numerous arguments I’ve made, You still have your objections, but here’s where my secret Uno Reverse Card kicks in.

My final argument.

It’s Refrainbow’s webcomic.

It’s as simple as that. Any content creator is not beholden to their audience and their whims. You can not like the comic, that’s fine, but you’re NOT entitled to changes made at your say-so. People frame their points like they deserve changes made so it can personally appeal to them, but that’s just not the case. If you don’t like the webtoons comic, rewrite it. Make it into something you like, but posting about how all the BFs are going to hell and how you want to run them over with a truck isn’t helping anyone or anything, you’re just being incredibly childish and whiny.

Once again: This is a FREE Webcomic made by a small set of people (I think just two? According to the Webtoons chapter outros at least). This webtoons is not going to revolutionize gay relationships, nor is it reasonable to expect it to. It’s a personal passion project, and it has every right to stay that way and not branch out like so many seem to want it to.

A final few disclaimers.

1. If you’re a straight cis person, just don’t argue. I’m gay, and I’m not about to have a straight person try to talk down to me and tell me I’m wrong, or worse, claim I’m a Fujoshi/Yaoi Loving Fangirl, there’s a reason I stepped away from the MHA fandom ya know.

2. I’m not a dedicated fan of this fic (although I do admit to having a bias, as I enjoy it and find humor in it) or of the author. I personally don’t care about the past controversies, and as I’m not affected by any of them, It’s not my place, duty/obligaton to forgive them on behalf of the people they harmed, that’s not the goal of this conversation. I simply am tired of seeing all this hate, both from arrogant straight people, and this senseless infighting from a section of the LGBTQ+ Community. To me it all seems like trumped up claims that don’t align with the reality of the situation.

Finally: If you like this webtoons, you’re valid. If you don’t like this webtoons, you’re valid, if you harass fans or the creator, you’re invalid, and if you talk over minorities while not being a member of said minority, your opinions, in that situation, are invalid.

117 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

“We all know it’s a fluff fic“ The fact that countless times I’ve seen people bash it for not being a serious, realistic portrayal of gay/poly romance shows people want it to be something serious, groundbreaking, or thought provoking, and it greatly contradicts this claim.

“but people are allowed to think the dialogue is annoying whether it’s on purpose or not. Also, humor is subjective, and I think the dialogue is unfunny as shit.“ I’ve never said you MUST find the webtoon funny, or enjoy the intentional cringe. The point is that it’s ridiculous to bash it based on what it IS. You don’t have to like fluff or cringe comedy, or non-serious comics, but your criticism isn’t criticism, you’re just saying what that thing is. The issue is that people state it as biblical fact, like the fact that it’s cringe comedy means it MUST be bad, and it’s all because of their personal humor. It also doesn’t help that all the cringe dialogue is about 3-4 different stills that get reposted constantly, which mischaracterizes what the dialogue is actually about. If you want your points to be taken seriously, perhaps you should get new material. Seeing the same 10 people talk about how “Owo hot choco” is cringe gets rather annoying considering it’s said about 2-3 times, and is easily ignorable. It shows that the people that criticize the webtoon likely don’t read it in any depth, and of course, you’re fine not to, but don’t be surprised when people who actually take the time to read the comic call you out on doing so.

“Being queer isn’t a “get out of jail” card for making characters one dimensional stereotypes“ But they’re not... It’s this stuff that convinces me that people only HEAR about this comic (often from overly critical clout chasers riding the hate wagon themselves) and they don’t READ the comic.

Just to paste the definition to crossrference: “a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing”

Prep. What do you think of when you think of a prep? You may think about a snobby rich kid who looks down upon everyone, who is arrogant and pampered. Yet what do we see of Prep? He spends money on his friends, not sure how else to show his love, he takes them to the beach house to have fun. His love language is gifts. There are also small instances, where he throws a football and he immediately gets it into the goal, not something you’d expect from a rich kid.

Goth looks one dimensional on the surface. He’s a loner most of the time, stays inside, however, despite looking like the one that needs to be cared for the most, and you wouldn’t be surprised if in the comic it’s stated he has depression, ya know, because he’s gothic. However, HE’S the one that cares for Prep, makes him hot chocolate when he’s down, is open for him to talk about his feelings.

Nerd is admittedly a self insert, so there’s not much that comes to mind.

Jock. When you think of a stereotypical Jock, he’s just a meathead, all he can think about is sports, however, he is very adept at cooking, and does so to spend time with Nerd.

None of these characters are perfect, or fully fleshed out with incredible backstories, but the idea that they’re all one note, or one dimensional is flat out wrong, which makes me question what grounds you have to argue over this comic, as I said, when I see stuff like this, it makes me think that you haven’t read it at all, or not in any depth, can I prove it? Obviously not, but it doesn’t give me a drive to continue this discussion after this.

“and it certainly isn’t a “get out of jail” card for criticism.” And I never said it was, if you have an issue with the comic, that’s fine, my issue is when it’s easily correctable, and, in the last case, it can EASILY be disproven by someone who has actually read the comic. Surprise, surprise, but when people say the same old incorrect stuff, it gets annoying seeing new people get turned away from a decent comic, so forgive me for being vocal about my distaste with these hate posts.

“Gay people care. Trans people care. Poly people care. You can’t just call people sensitive because of poorly written representation, especially because gay men are frequently fetishized in media.” It’s not poorly written, that’s the trouble I have with it. If it were trying to make leaps and bounds, I’d agree, but it’s not, it’s a fluff comic with no higher aspirations. Also, there is no fetishization of gay men in this comic. I’m sorry, but as an unbiased person going into this, I expected to see gross characters, instead I saw intimate partners having a sexual interest in one another. And that was as “objectionable” as it could be.

“ I don’t know what the MHA fandom is like, but there are MANY people I’ve known/seen that are queer and hate Boyfriends, including myself.“ And I don’t doubt queer people hate or dislike it, I’m merely interested in knowing how much that ratio is in comparison to straight people who are arguing on our behalf. I am biased due to my exposure to MHA’s hell fandom, but I’d wager a lot, but of course, I cannot prove it one way or the other.

“You’re basically doing the same thing right now. You’re just claiming that anyone who calls out the issues of this comic are “homophobic.” Please, tell me where I said “If you dislike or hate this comic, you’re a homophobe!” Because I assure you, you won’t find it. I know some gay people dislike it, but I also know activists love diving into causes without knowing what they are about, and parroting incorrect information as an attempt to be an ally. This isn’t exclusive to anime, it’s with real world issues as well.

“I do agree that people shouldn’t harass other members of our community for how they express themselves. However, if you’re so ticked off that people are saying that the characters are poorly written and frequently sexualized (the nerd is infantilized ALONG with being sexualized) that’s on you.“ It’s not, in fact, on me if I have an issue with this. People see a fictional character acting or being sexual around their partners and they immediately call him a slut, like ??? I get people may not have relationship experience, but that’s not someone being slutty, and that’s not fetishizing gay people, that’s writing people with high sex drive, it’s writing flamboyant queer men. Though it always makes me chuckle, how Boyfriends is sexualizing gay people, but the hundreds of shows and movies, mangas/comics that sexualize their characters are just fine, it almost seems like a double standard or somethin’.

It seems like the creator is in a lose lose situation. Because this community is so picky about what “good” gay rep is supposed to be, that if he strikes it good with one group, he’ll anger another, people say they want good rep, but no one can agree on what that is.

“Calling a gay fictional character annoying or referencing the homophobic dog meme when talking about them isn’t as harmful as telling a real gay person to stop being who they are.” And yet, by telling the author and other people that they’re making bad rep, you’re doing just that. You’re reinforcing that flamboyant, or very sexually active/positive people are being the “wrong” type of gay. It’s not that you just don’t prefer it, it’s that it’s wrong to be positive about the rep BF has in it, even when those sort of people are just as valid as us “normal” LGBT+’s.

“It IS a blow to us because Boyfriends is one of the most popular Webtoons, despite the creator’s shady history. It has BILLBOARDS for God’s sake.“ Michael Jackson is an exceptionally famous man, he made history several times over, and it can’t be denied that he changed the music scene forever, will the amount of scandals EVER change that? If you can’t separate the art from the artist, so be it, but that won’t erase the product and how it stands on it’s own. You can enjoy a product while understanding that the maker is not a perfect person. It’s not a blow to us, it’s not some corporate shill move, or made by straight people looking for brownie points, it’s made by a gay person, and nowhere in that comic does it say that this is how gay people interact or behave, it’s merely one persons personal project that they wanted to share. I can’t help it if you don’t personally vibe with the comic, but to say it’s harmful is just untrue.

“Proshippers aren’t valid. Next point.” What an astute response, gee, how should I respond? Oh, I know! Proshippers are valid. Next point.

“No shit we know it’s his comic and that we aren’t entitled to changes, but artists, big or small, are entitled to criticism, and should hear readers out, even if they don’t agree with it.“ I beg to differ, you’re taking your personal tastes and trying to make it into fact. You don’t like characters that are sexual, or representation that’s not intended to be super serious? That’s fine, but it’s not fine when you lie about the contents of a comic because you think “well if I can’t like it, no one else can!” These criticisms come off as exceptionally whiny and entitled, it’s not enough to just move on, like any ordinary person, suddenly, we need to make things up to have an edge, and yes, with the previous examples (one dimensional characters and overreacting to a line that’s said twice and never again) you’re flat out making things up, these things are so incredibly minor, and yet they’re blown out of the water and are used as “evidence” for claiming that this comic is bad rep, or that it fetishizes gay men.

And I agree, authors should hear out their readers... But note what I said, READERS. Half of these criticisms make it seem like y’all don’t actually read the comic, or that we read wildly different versions of it.

“Nobody expects a Webtoon to be as revolutionary as Heartstopper“ my, my, we seem to once again be reading entirely different posts, even your own post contradicts this, you seem to be under the impression that because this comic is popular through no fault of it’s own, that it should now morph into “proper” LGBT+ representation. This webtoons owes us nothing outside of what it advertised itself to be.

“So when queer people say that Boyfriends sucks and just a bunch of stereotypes, were homophobic” You must be a master of projection, because I never said any of that. you can dislike it, but it just being one note stereotypes is just wrong, as I have demonstrated. Disliking the comic is not homophobic, I don’t care if it’s not your cup to tea, what I DO care about is when people straight up lie about the comic, especially if it appears that they haven’t seen or read it outside of the aforementioned sensationalized clips that are floating around.

“but when RefRainbow writes all those said stereotypes, he’s a gay man who isn’t hurting any other gay men?“ Well, as he isn’t writing stereotypes, he’s not.

“I’m just gonna debunk this post.“ Consider me underwhelmed.

Boyfriends Webtoons Discourse

The more I read this ‘controversial’ webtoons, the more I’m convinced that the people that are so offended by it have NEVER even read a single chapter in full.

But, like, when it comes to the ACTUAL webtoons??? Like, have any of you read the basic introductory chapter?

“It’s not serious!” “It’s cringe!”

Next is people claiming that the comic “fetishizes gay people”.

Lastly, I get an icky feeling in my stomach whenever I hear this talking point. I remember feeling it back when I was in the hell that was the MHA fandom.

It was during shipping wars when an eerily similar point was made concerning gay couples. “They’re fetishizing gay people!” “All this shipping is because of the Fujoshis!”

You know who was saying all this? STRAIGHT PEOPLE.

Tell me, would you go up to a gay person and tell them that their form of personal expressions are “wrong”? Who on earth would any of us be to talk down to others like that?

This partially off topic tangent is to Segway into the talking point (or implied talking point) that this webtoons is publicizing unflattering stereotypes and is therefore bad.

Two, as I covered, these aren’t mythical stereotypes, there are actual people who live like this, and they’re valid and entitled to living how they see fit.

But you know what? I hear you, in spite of the numerous arguments I’ve made, You still have your objections, but here’s where my secret Uno Reverse Card kicks in.

My final argument.

It’s Refrainbow’s webcomic.

A final few disclaimers.

117 notes · View notes

flushed-for-the-trolls · 2 years

Text

Boyfriends Webtoons Discourse

The more I read this ‘controversial’ webtoons, the more I’m convinced that the people that are so offended by it have NEVER even read a single chapter in full.

But, like, when it comes to the ACTUAL webtoons??? Like, have any of you read the basic introductory chapter?

“It’s not serious!” “It’s cringe!”

So of course it’s not serious, of course it’s over the top and cheesy, to be over the top and cheesy IS THE POINT. But it seems like no one has actually read the comic, they’ve simply seem a few reactions and out of context clips from the comic and decided they know how everything works... Disregarding the fact that they’ve never read it...

Next is people claiming that the comic “fetishizes gay people”.

Lastly, I get an icky feeling in my stomach whenever I hear this talking point. I remember feeling it back when I was in the hell that was the MHA fandom.

It was during shipping wars when an eerily similar point was made concerning gay couples. “They’re fetishizing gay people!” “All this shipping is because of the Fujoshis!”

You know who was saying all this? STRAIGHT PEOPLE.

Tell me, would you go up to a gay person and tell them that their form of personal expressions are “wrong”? Who on earth would any of us be to talk down to others like that?

This partially off topic tangent is to Segway into the talking point (or implied talking point) that this webtoons is publicizing unflattering stereotypes and is therefore bad.

Two, as I covered, these aren’t mythical stereotypes, there are actual people who live like this, and they’re valid and entitled to living how they see fit.

But you know what? I hear you, in spite of the numerous arguments I’ve made, You still have your objections, but here’s where my secret Uno Reverse Card kicks in.

My final argument.

It’s Refrainbow’s webcomic.

A final few disclaimers.

117 notes · View notes