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beansprean · 10 months

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Your post about Nandor and alexthymia actually goes with a theory that I've been thinking about. The theory is that ALL vampires, when they are turned, lose their empathy, along with outgrowths of it, like theory of mind and understanding of emotion in general. This lack mostly applies to humans, but it can also extend to vampires.

Throughout the show (and a lot of the movie), all the vampires have trouble fitting into society. Not because of their fangs or grey skin, but because they are painfully socially awkward. Vampires not only flout social norms, but also seem to be unaware of them. You can see this with Nandor at the gym. He doesn't pick up on modern gym norms, and instead enacts the norms from when he was human.

That's one of their methods for fitting into society without theory of mind. When they turned into vampires, they lost the ability to pick up on human social cues, so they think back to when they did have them, and instead of remembering the way they read humans, they simply remember the rules. They don't feel anymore, so they use rules to compensate. This is when they try to fit in.

When they don't try, they don't bother with the pretense. They are completely unable to put themselves in humanity's shoes. You can see this in the movie, in a particularly memeorable moment. The vampires like to play tricks of the visitors by turning spaghetti into worms, when the guests are eating it. There are two guests, and right after she saw the vampires play the trick on the other guest, they try it again. Now, this was played as a humorous moment, but it does exemplify the vampires' inability to conceptualize human minds.

But, vampires are capable of change, as we see in the show. The vampires actually show a rudimentary form of empathy to Guillermo on occasion. I'm thinking of Nadja's moment of empathy with Guillermo, right after she lets his family go. She says something like 'I suppose I didn't like it when my family was murdered, so I guess Guillermo won't like it either'. That's empathy, that's perspective-taking, but it's rudimentary—it sounds like a thought a toddler would come up with, when first starting to conceptualize other minds. Their sense of human empathy has been reversed and stunted.

This is one of the main reasons for vampiric immaturity in the show. We don't see any of the elegant, manipulative vampires that are so prevalent in other media. They are evil, yes, but out of carelessness and inability. None of them can manipulate a human to save their lives. The vampires are also unable to empathize with other vampires, to a lesser extent. Because when a vampire dies, and other vampires are horrified, the horror stems from logical self-preservation. The reaction to these deaths is overwhelmingly 'meh' and 'against the code'. There's some rituals of grief (that memorial from the Theatre, for example) but they lack emotional subtext. This selfishness and lack of grief can also stems from an underdeveloped sense of empathy.

(A note on Nadja and Lazlo: they do have a persistent understanding of each other, but that still tends towards the simple. Note Lazlo killing Jeff because he makes Nadia sad. Also note Nadja brushing past Laszlo's objections to the UK by making a surface level read of his motivations: the vow doesn't matter because now they are more powerful. Luckily, this works for both of them because the receptive partner sees it the same way. This is an example of this rudimentary empathy expanding to their own minds as well, i.e. alexthymia)

There are a lot more examples of this in the text, those were just the ones I noticed. But anyway, this is why I agree with a lot of the fandom wanting to give prizes to the vampires for basic human decency. Because they are not human, their minds have changed and made decency a lot more difficult. Few people realize how much we depend on those centers of our minds for functioning in society and being in relationships; we only notice when coming upon the glaring lack of those centers. And there is a lot more to say about this, but this is really long already. I might write an essay.

This is SUPER INTERESTING

I would counter, however, and I'm not sure if this was your intended meaning, that these things do not automatically happen to vampires upon their turning. Instead, their sense of empathy is damaged and warped by hundreds of years of disassociating themselves from humanity, generally facing no consequences for their actions, and needing to kill to survive.

Kinda like billionaires

#vampires are cooler than billionares tho #djdjejeodk #anonymous

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whomstwedointheshadows · 6 months

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Hello, yes you Nandermo shippers, would you like to come along to delulu land?

I have some thoughts on the clickbaitiness of Paul Simms. Reading the transcript of the Nandermo moment (all hail @kyrilu for doing the damn thing on our behalf) and there’s two follow up segments to frame the Nandermo comment from a PR/fuck-around option.

1) the Kiss card was brought up by the interviewer, seemingly pulling the writer ms back to the topic of the panel, segueing to important, pre-planned questions.

I’m not sure where the information about the existence of Nandor+Guillermo+Kiss was first published. Regardless, this had to be a pre-cleared question. Behind the scenes, these media panels absolutely clear questions and topics in advance.

2) Vulture is posting reviews and materials very, very shippy of Nandermo. This was the ship friendliest possible room full of media explicitly gathered to drum up buzz for the new season. It wasn’t a random instagram stream about their writing process. The interviewer confirms the infidelity theme-then there’s going to be some backtracking to make it ‘sooo not sexual’ - the headline is not ‘Nandermo Infidelity Cofirmed’ now it’s ‘That Moment Wasn’t Sexual’

[sidebar: I have no idea how the strikes affected the usual publicity cycle and what impact that has on numbers, other than it definitely did. I would imagine those conversations and reactions to their ‘material’ has some sway/inspiration over the next season, from a producing standpoint or the general glee of a creator reading responses. It’s incredibly fortunate for the show there was already a season in process to come back and make due to the two season renewal. At the time of planning this panel it was not known when the actors strike would end, which I imagine changes the plan for promo cycles, especially one they were already adapting. My guess is the season 5 actors promo was completed based on our media, but any ‘soft power’ that comes from writers work/networking/teasing was altered. We missed anything they planned/reacted/tweeted while the show was airing. TLDR: this panel is coming after a long period of not rattling sabers from the writers.]

I put all of this here to say, as much as I don’t know about the business-side of show business, everyone was explicitly in that room to generate media and attention and demand for the show. That’s the actual point of the event, which absolutely has an impact on word choice. They’re comedy writers, with a flair for dramatic also doing the business part with a streak of evil teasing their audience.

Alrighty, foundation established, the big question and the Best Fan Interjection:

I salute you, sassy audience.

3) The WORDS

Word choice: hook-up

Does ‘the greatest romance on television’ have a one-off hook up, or does it get wrapped in plot and Have Significance and Pay-Off for all of the tension? What’s the most entertaining way in service of the show that’s worth losing the Will-they-Won’t-they dynamic? Can they subvert expectations in a way that makes the writers feel smart and like they’ve spent years building it is worth the investment from the audience? I have theories about A Secret Third Thing for absurdity being the direction they prefer on wwdits. It’s got be a big gambit to land to anyone’s satisfaction.

For an in character analysis of the infidelity not being sexual- I’m just going to put the concept of ‘honor’ and what being a familiar is in vampiric society, that this interpretation is absolutely fair as a breach of trust between Nandor and Guillermo. This response reads as truthful about that specific plot line ignoring everything fucking sexual about vampires, vows and penetration. Yes, he’s right- they didn’t fuck nasty on camera, it was just an intimate betrayal that maps really well giving someone you admire power over you, but realizing what they think is best for you, best for them, and what you want are all different things. That’s another story specific to this plotline. Also super common in anti-sitcom divorce tropes.

Would there be an entertaining story if Nandermo went all-in right now, for these characters? Or would it erase development and stagnate in a hierarchy?

I do think writers feel a responsibility to their stories and their audiences, even if the audience doesn’t like parts. I think WWDITS is a very smart show that loves/hates vampires and sitcoms, and it is always going to choose the highest setting on the dial for dark comedy on a subverted sitcom trope, which means while it can be an absolute riot with horrendous implications so it has to pull back enough for the next episode to be in the format with a new conceit.

There’s toxic co-dependent idiots Nandermo, and then there’s cruel, abusive, worst impulses working against each other being explicit, which kills the heart of the show.

4) What’s the Job?

WWDITS Audience: I don’t think the writers actually think it’s a little group of queer fans getting over invested on Nandermo. In fact, I think they are aware of the past Queerbaiting Sins of Network Television based on their serious storylines for queer characters. I think the archetypes and themes of the show specifically court that audience, and each season has only been more to those tastes by laying a solid foundation to explore what hasn’t been the focus of storytelling in the past. I think writers are a tricksy bunch and they’ve got a team who takes the dynamics seriously enough to tell the story of getting to a better place for the characters and entertainment. Hell, there’s a writer from Frasier on the panel who talks about slow burns.

Knowing that shipping has a long history, everyone is absolutely working from previous playbooks on how to tease and shape a story.

Even if a ship goes canon, absolutely no one is going to confirm it before it happens.

[Trickster storytellers, those liars, always wanting us to see their work unfold rather than spoil the ending. Even when they foreshadow or use dread, it’s just so they can feel smart about their lies when we look back, damn writers, emotional vampires. ]

While I shouldn’t underestimate the power of a straight white guy to mansplain some homophobic spice to ‘deeper than sex’ queerness, looking at the media of the actual show, the romantic ship framing is not in question. I’m of the persuasion it’s been great queer representation by having complex queer characters with varied ambitions and obstacles, often their choices driving the story for comedic/dramatic effect, of very selfish, horrible people.

That established, especially because the show has increasingly grown to be more visibly queer, the characters also have to be compelling to watch in their individual journeys even if a ship goes canon. However, no one would be satisfied if the fulfillment of a Nandermo ship was at the cost of the whole household or the characters themselves. The ‘Sunrise, Sunset’ and ‘No One Ever Really Dies in Shadows’ principles lead to an educated guess even if Nandermo becomes canon and carry their own plotlines, the episodes of the show are still going to be the dark, twisted ensemble shenanigans with sucker punches of heart. We love our djinn-curses in the narrative.

So, if ‘you don’t want what you think you want’ has relevance, I see it as these characters are not at their most compelling to get together-yet, as individuals or in the narrative of what the show wants to tell. That relationship wouldn’t be fulfilling or funny or fair- not that the characters deserve happy endings or an easy road, but to the journey of accepting and receiving love as part of the theme, seeing the love that matters/already exists ties into the conflicts around immortality/meaning. Haven’t we Good Omens fans learned that a kiss is not always the kiss we want?

For a Nandor in Space perspective, central to the vampire in western culture are themes of love/cruelty, class consciousness, the erotic other, transformation/stagnation/decay, inescapable time, the beast beneath the human face, inescapable temptation/indulgence, and cost/callousness of piety.

That’s some inherently kinky romantic shit right there, that necessitates crossing boundaries and abandoning norms. Even if the journey is actually murder-accessory to get what I want at all costs to this guy’s shampoo makes me realize this is a boundary I will not cross today because it reminds me of my own humanity.

#nandermo #what we do in the shadows #wwdits meta #wwdits 6

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zebrashavestripes · 2 years

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Nandermo flowershop/tattoo artist AU speaks to me

Guillermo owns a flowershop and the new tattoo parlour next door blasts the music too loud and so he storms over there and yells at Nandor for 10 minutes before finding out that it was actually Nadja and Laszlo playing the music and “I just work here”

Guillermo is super embarrassed for over-reacting and vows to just never talk to those people again but Nandor comes over to the shop, saying he wants some flowers for a girl he’s seeing

And then the next day he comes in like “It’s didn’t work out 😢What do I do flower shop boy?” And they become friends. And Nandor keeps buying flowers for the girls he hits on, but it never works out, and then Guillermo realizes one day while Nandor’s softly stroking a rose with a wistful look on his face that, oh fuck, he might have a bit of a crush on him.

And then after another of Nandor’s romantic failings, Guillermo’s had enough and is just like “Stop this! You’re a catch! Why do you keep going after people who aren’t interested? Don’t you get how pretty you are? Like, dude, you’re amazing. Just believe in yourself”

And Nandor’s all: “...😊 You think I’m pretty???”

Guillermo: “Um.... only a little bit.”

Nandor: “Okay, thank you Guillermo! I’m feeling much better.”

And the next day Nandor comes and buys a bouqet of flowers again and Guillermo rolls his eyes but wraps it up anyway. And then Nandor leaves the store, only to come back in again.

Guillermo: “Did you forget something?”

Nandor: “Yes ��These are for you....” And gives him the flowers.

I just think it would be cute, okie

#wwdits #nandermo #nandor the relentless #guillermo de la cruz

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adelaidedrubman · 7 months

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JessJohn 17, 18, 23 (? I think the one on how they would describe their wedding) 💜

THANK YOU MY BELOVED watch me sneaking in here to finally answer:3

17. Show us their vows. Did either of them tear up at them?

...i’m gonna keep it real with you, lici — i’m not writing all that shit.

needless to say their vows are a mile long and take hours. john writes his out weeks in advanced and gets through maybe twenty percent, jessie’s are mostly improvised and reactive. john’s start sweet enough, “my beloved jessie — i could sense from the moment i saw you that you would be my destiny, but i could have never imagined just how far we’d come from that first meeting...”

from there, things quickly devolve into a screaming relitigation of their relationship timeline — when did they first meet, actually? who kissed who first? who said i love you first? who the hell actually proposed?

they certainly can’t agree, but it circles back around to being something resembling vows eventually. (“well, maybe if we can’t even fuckin’ agree if we got engaged, we don’t even agree if we’re getting married right now!” *crowd cheers* “maybe this isn’t a wedding, then! maybe this is a public proposal, since apparently you don’t think i asked you properly before. jessie —” *crowd boos* “john! would you do the absolute fucking honor of marrying me?” *crowd boos louder* “...yes. would you do me the honor of becoming my wife, right here and now, at this time and date i’m specifically proposing? do you take me to be your husband in front of god and all these witnesses?” “...i do, in front of all these witnesses. do you take me to be your wife until death do us fucking part?” “i do! do you —” “well, that’s probably all we should trust them to get on the books themselves! good as any time to start running through the rest of the song and dance. if anyone here knows of any reason why these two should not be joined in matrimony —”

18. Did anyone oppose the marriage? Did they speak then, or did they just forever hold their peace?

...which brings us to: absolutely everyone opposed it. most of the guests were only there for the sake of objecting. by the end of it, their officiants were even voicing objections.

have you ever seen that scene from wwdits where nandor is getting married and the baron asks if anyone knows just cause why these two shouldn’t be wed and everyone lines up at the microphone to air some kind of grievance? yeah, it goes basically like that. literally everyone in hope county objects and goes on a collective multiple hours tirade about all the harm the happy couple has caused them personally that pushes the wedding well into the next day.

it fails to upset john and jestiny even a little bit, though — they sit there listening to recounting of all the devastating harm they caused with beaming smiles as they fondly reminisce on those early days of young love. something of a delightful wedding toast that easily transitions into the reception, for them.

23. If the couple could describe their wedding in a sentence, how would they?

“one of the most beautiful and cherished days of my life — the kind of fairytale wedding i would have never imagined would be meant for me.”

-john

“pretty fucking alright, as far as wedding bullshit goes.”

-jestiny

“the most divorced wedding i’ve ever seen.”

-any reasonable guest in attendance

#otp: stop bothering these nice folks #ship asks

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edandstede · 4 years

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what i really loved about 2x08 was that nandor’s reaction to guillermo leaving wasn’t steeped in a need to simply have guillermo return asap so he could continue chores and serving him. no, it was deeply emotional, personal. he specifically says that he’s been unhappy since guillermo left and asks what he can do to bring him home. home. nandor seeking out guillermo’s company, his desperate willingness to make changes and re-committ to old promises, convey a bond that runs deeper than that of a master and his familiar. he forgoes his pride and gets vulnerable with guillermo for the second time this season (first being asking him to stay until he fell asleep, saying he was less fearless) in order to establish the fact that he WILL do whatever it takes to come back to him - and that includes vowing that he will turn him and softly reassuring him that he’s a great familiar after all. he let guillermo see how much he truly needs him, and for nandor, that is a pretty huge step. also, while we didn’t get a hug, we DID get nandor flying guillermo home when just earlier that episode, he was reminiscing about holding him in his arms as they flew. love language, babey!

#quill to paper #wwdits #nandermo #mine

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tkwrtrilogy3 · 5 years

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Chapter VI: The Second Awakening (Pt. V)

I took my place beside Mîrwen—I marveled at how she radiated when she smiled at me. We stood with Elmo and Orowen, Galadhon and Celebriel, Galathil and Nárwen on either side of King Thingol and Queen Melian. Oropher, Amdir, Galathil, and Eäros stood with their wives beside Celeborn and Galadriel as they stood before the court to take their vows.

“Celeborn, son of Galadhon,” Daeron began. “You have chosen Galadriel?” “I have,” Celeborn said proudly.

“And you, Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin,” another elf said to her. “You have chosen Celeborn?”

“I have,” Galadriel said gazing into Celeborn’s eyes.

Daeron and the elf bowed to Things as he stood to address the couple.

“I say to you both, you have my blessing.”

They shared a kiss and the Great Hall erupted with cheers. Servants cleared the hall to prepare for evening celebrations as we left with the family into an adjacent room beyond the thrones. Once there, I noticed King Thingol speaking to his queen quietly across from us. The door opened.

“Saeros,” Thingol said to the elf that entered. “Come.”

I recognized him as the other officiant. Unlike most elves in the service of the king, he was a Nandor. Today was his first official duty as a member of the council. Graceful and fair, his demeanor reminded me of Denethor.

“That was a beautiful ceremony,” Orowen began. “It was indeed the respite from the goings-on beyond these walls we needed.”

“If you are referring to the sundering of the lands around Beleriand by the sons of Fëanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin, then yes, it was,” Galadhon said quietly.

“It is your son’s wedding day,” Elmo began sternly. “There will be none of that.” “Where has Celeborn gone to,” Mîrwen asked, looking around.

“He is probably with his brother and his cousins,” I said. “His bride was last seen with Lúthien and her ladies.”

“I am rather looking forward to this evening,” Galathil said. “How long has it been since we have found cause to celebrate?”

“Too long,” I said.

Shortly, we found ourselves summoned to the Great Hall again for feast and merriment into the night. When I was not dancing with Mîrwen, I spent my time observing my kin enjoying themselves. Even Súlwë found a measure of happiness as he danced with Galadriel. For a moment, it seemed the past was forgiven.

**** **** **** ****

One morning not long after, I lay in bed—my eyes shut with my mind drifting peacefully in tranquil darkness. I felt Mîrwen move closer to me, her lips touching mine. I opened my eyes to find her looking at me. We kissed again and soon we were lost in each other’s arms.

“How is my wife this morning,” I asked.

“She is very happy,” she said.

She kissed me again, but I did not respond.

“What is the matter?”

“It is too quiet,” I answered. “Something is about to happen.”

“Do not be silly,” Mîrwen said, kissing me again.

There was a knock at the door. Mîrwen frowned at me as I smiled at her.

“I told you so,” I whispered. “One moment, if you will,” I said to the door.

Mîrwen rose from our bed and covered herself with her robe.

“Enter,” she said.

When the door opened, several ladies entered. I recognized two of them.

“Good morning, Nimeithel; Valdúril.”

“Orothôn,” Nimeithel said as she turned to Mîrwen. “Wonderful news! Níndi is with child and Galathil has asked Meriel for her hand.”

“That is wonderful news,” Mîrwen cried gleefully.

“Yes,” I began. “Wonderful.”

They all turned and looked at me for what seemed a lifetime.

“Apologies, my love,” Mîrwen finally said.

She motioned for the ladies to follow her to her dressing corner so I could properly cover myself in my robe. It was then another knock came. I sighed deeply.

“Enter,” I said as I sat down on the bed. It was Êlengolas and Finëar.

“You are not in bed,” Finëar said.

I pointed behind me.

“Oh,” he said again.

More dressers entered as Mîrwen emerged dressed for the day. She came to me and whispered into my ear.

“Until later,” she said as she kissed my cheek.

I nodded and she disappeared into the hall with the ladies.

“I do not wish to know,” Êlengolas began. “Please keep that to yourself.”

I let out a weak laugh as the dressers got to work.

“Any word from court other than Galathil’s engagement?”

“Lady Galadriel has left Beleriand,” Finëar said.

“Why,” I asked.

“It is nothing,” Êlengolas added. “She went to see her brother.”

“The king allowed this,” I asked.

“He cannot deny her such a request even as he and his brothers are exiled.”

“Did Celeborn leave with her?”

“No, he remains,” Finëar answered. “He has duties to attend to here.”

“He is the grandson of the king’s brother. Let no grudge go unheld,” Êlengolas said as the dressers finished and left.

The three of us made our way toward the Great Hall.

“Where does Finrod make his home,” I asked.

“Not far from our southwest borders,” Finëar said. “The sons of Fëanor are our north and east.”

“Do not forget Fingolfin and his sons,” Êlengolas said. “They occupy territory in the Northwest regions. All is right with the world.”

“For now,” I said to myself as we continued on our way.

**** **** **** ****

As the years went on, our world began to grow. There were noticeably more elves and naugrim walking the hills and valleys of Arda. After the birth of Eäros and Níndi’s son Ëarmîr, Galathil wed Meriel. Not long thereafter, their daughter Nimloth was born.

In the days following, my visions became more frequent and vivid. I told no one of the darkness and the despair I saw but Oropher seemed to understand whenever I became distant from friends and family.

There were rumors out of Ossiriand from the remnants of the Laiquendi still residing there. A new creature had appeared. Unlike the naugrim, it was said to be far more pleasant to look upon, yet their presence was unwelcome. Saeros would scoff at the stories of his lost people as fantasy as their plight of living under the eyes of two sons of Fëanor was less than ideal.

Queen Melian, however, took these rumors to heart. She said very little on the matter except to tell us not to dismiss these tales out of hand for creation continues under the Heavens. After a while, the rumors would be put aside and we went on with our lives—until the night when the rumors came within the borders of Doriath.

For elves, the night brought us comfort. We awoke beneath the stars so it was not uncommon for any of us to find ourselves outside on cloudless nights lost in thought. On nights such as this, Lúthien would wander out of the palace. It was unclear why—for it had started to become routine. Upon her return each time, her behavior seemed changed. Her cousin Galathil fell suspicious first—telling Oropher she was almost tolerable. Still, no one said a word. It was in her nature, we told ourselves.

One moonlit night, I went to find my son. He was on watch in the keep. When I arrived, he was lost in thought, gazing into the sky.

“What is on your mind, son,” I asked.

“Not a thing,” he said, turning his gaze toward me. “I was enjoying the view.”

I went to join him at the window. It was one of the most beautiful nights I had seen.

“What a view it is,” I said. “It is breathtaking.”

“Perhaps if we were outside,” he began. “I would love to take Nimeithel for a walk.”

“There will be other nights,” I said. “How is Nimeithel?”

“She has been tasked to look after Lúthien,” he answered. “To see where she wanders on the orders of grandmother. She thinks Lúthien has found a new place to wander but she wants to make sure it is not too far from Menegroth.”

“Has she returned,” I asked.

“She never left,” Oropher laughed. “Lúthien escaped before she could follow.”

We look out the window and saw Daeron leaving—crossing the bridge swiftly.

“Where is Daeron going,” I asked.

Oropher looked for himself.

“I do not know, but he has been often wandering out of Menegroth as of late searching for Lúthien.”

“Perhaps he goes for the king,” I said.

“The king does not know,” he answered.

“How is that possible?”

“I cannot say,” Oropher began. “But he does not know Daeron is in love with his daughter.”

“I beg your pardon,” I cried.

“It is true, Ada,” he said. “I do not know how no one has noticed how he looks upon her.”

“Everyone looks upon Lúthien with high regard,” I said.

Oropher laughed.

“He looks upon her as I look upon Nimeithel or Eldôr looks upon Valdúril. He is in love but it is unrequited.”

I looked out again to see Daeron returning from his outing. Even at a distance, I could see he was infuriated.

“He is not happy,” I said.

“How can you tell,” Oropher asked. “He always looks that way.”

“Something has him overwrought,” I said. “Perhaps I should go after him.”

“There is no need to,” Oropher said pointing into the night.

I saw Lúthien coming across the bridge and into the gates. We looked at each other perplexed. I would not be long before the answer to our questions would come walking into the court of King Thingol.––TKWRT Book I: The Epic of Eryn Galen by Jaynaé Marie Miller. 8-03-2019

Note to @staff : This is Liv Tyler as Arwen. Duh.

Images: ©2001, 2002, 2003. Warner Brothers Pictures. The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King. All Rights Reserved.

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